(Apologies for the lateness of this post, but I work Fridays and Saturdays till 6pm and 7pm respectively, which makes it difficult to do this kind of work on those days.)
Ratio, ratio – non argumentum sine rationes. Da mi rationes!
NML’s posts have been wonderfully written and very honest, for which I commend him. But, like Theophiletus (whom I consider a better apologist and analyst than myself) I found some of the language ambiguous, perhaps because the audience context and rhetorical/logical purpose were not explicitly defined.
For example, let us take the use of the word “fact” in his first piece. I used the context to infer that by “fact” he meant a scientific use of the term. I would call this “fact by consensus and nihil obstat.” In other words, fact as used in the scientific community represents doctrines agreed upon by a majority of scholars and which (through peer review and other processes) are deemed fit for publication in teaching materials. But, as far as I could tell, because of the AATW publication and audience context of these pieces by NML, their genre should be defined as “Apologetics”, and not as “in-house scientific essays”. The consumers here are varied, but it seems to me that at least some of us are sceptics regarding TOE.
If this is accepted, then the word “fact” is inappropriate for describing certain articles mentioned by NML, because they are not within their section proved as such and are not universally accepted by the audience. They represent examples of asserting what needs to be proven, and therefore do not constitute facts in an apologetics sense.
Nevertheless, the description is not as important as the veracity of the claims made, and I salute the generally cautious and open-minded tone and style adopted by NML, along with his efforts to make the material as accessible to the layman as possible. While I, like many here, have come through the rigours of post-graduate research, I am aware that many haven’t and therefore we must all seek to avoid jargon as much as is reasonably possible.
It has been interesting to read the back and forth between NML and Bosco, and I have found that the comments generally exemplify the difficulties of real-life apologetics: no matter how smart you are, there will always be a typo or emotional response to trip up the flow of argument. We aren’t robots.
It was unfortunate, and I’m sure a merely heat-of-the moment thing, that Bosco’s dating-system objection was marginalised on the grounds that he wasn’t a professional geologist. Given the proper relationship between science and philosophy (vide http://bnonn.com/on-science-part-1-belief-versus-knowledge/ and the rest of that series for a Reformed discussion of this material), I do not feel that this is a proper response to Bosco. I can understand a desire to avoid stupid questions and misleading statements, but it prejudices the case to assert that he is unqualified to pose methodological objections because he is a layman as far as that discipline is concerned. It would be far more convincing to receive his objections and shoot them down than to dismiss him out of hand without a fair hearing.
This whole debate is specially nuanced, however. We are used to debates on this topic between Christians and non-Christians, not as an in-house affair. The combination of TOE with the providence and benevolence of God presents a hybrid to us of guided adaptation, contra blind adaptation and mutation as presented by the materialist. Therefore, as a professing Christian, it is legitimate for us, the audience, to call on our author to defend his theology, hermeneutics, and exegesis. We ask not only if the TOE is scientifically and philosophically defensible, but whether it is Biblically compliant. We ask not only if NML is orthodox on this matter, but if his view offers no internal contradiction, since self-contradiction would be logical grounds for refutation and non-acceptance.
As far as self-contradiction is concerned, if NML does not believe in Original Sin, then he is not obligated to defend it, and we may not use it as an objection to his presentation unless two points be satisfied first:
- That Original Sin is a true Biblical doctrine (and what that means).
- That Original Sin and TOE are mutually exclusive (and TOE must be carefully defined, following NML’s own practice)
In connection with Original Sin, the Fathers have been mentioned. This is somewhat problematic given the denominational variety of the contributors and readers of AATW. The Fathers are witnesses of Sacred Tradition and transmitters of it – but they are not identical to it. Not every word of their writings comes under the protection of dogma, and we know that they were not in agreement on all matters. For example, while Hippolytus was Pre-Millennial in his eschatology, Jerome was A-Millennial (or post-, but either way, you get the point).
What is the genre of Genesis? How is it unified? What is the central message? Orthodox Christians who are proponents of the myth/allegory interpretation generally wish to preserve the historical nature of the later narratives: for example, they believe Joseph was a real man who acted as second-in-command to Pharaoh, probably during the Hyksos dynasty. But we must ask what their justification is for changing genre within the same book. If the beginning of Genesis is a “myth”, why isn’t the Joseph story? And if the Joseph story, why not the Exodus?
Accusations of being “overly literal” are unhelpful because they misrepresent the position of so-called “literalists”, as if they believed trees really will clap their branches together or that a beast will come out of the Mediterranean and stomp on Christians living in ha’aretz Yisra’el. So-called literalists construe a literal meaning where the genre and other indicators give them license to do so, and construe a metaphorical/symbolic/allegorical meaning where the markers give them cause to do so. I can switch back and forth between symbolic and literal in the Book of Daniel because the book itself tells me when I’m dealing with visions and when I’m dealing with events of the Babylonian Exile.
And so we come to Genesis. Do we have textual warrant for switching between genres within the book? To my knowledge, no. And I challenge an advocate of TOE to give me literary grounds for switching between allegory and history as I pass from whatever their cut-off point may be to the next section. Furthermore, the location of the cut-off point is not universally agreed upon, which rather undermines their side of the argument. Some believe Noah is the beginning of history proper, others Abraham, others somewhere earlier. If NML is to defend his position, he must produce the turning-point properly documented with relevant inter-disciplinary arguments (and as a convert to Orthodoxy, it would be helpful to have the relevant citations from the Fathers if any exist for such a cut-off point or modern Orthodox scholarship on the matter.)
To be continued.
ginnyfree said:
Oh dear Nicholas. I may pass on this one. You’ve got too many things in your short essay that are screaming errors to me and to engage on some of them while ignoring the others is more than I desire now. I’ve got to get ready for Mass anyway. Maybe later. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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theophiletos said:
Thanks for posting this, but I had to dig to find it. I fear the WordPress bug of posting something time-stamped by when you started it (rather than when you posted it) has buried this post, and it will therefore provoke less discussion than it merits to. I don’t have time to respond right now, but two quick points:
There’s a lot going on in each of NML’s posts and in this one. I suspect it will make discussion easier if we identify specific components and focus threads on each.
I was so grateful to NML to posting the exact citations of various authors’ writings, in one of his comments. I suspect that looking more closely at those quotations in context may both clarify NML’s position, and may perhaps encourage us to re-examine some of the language in which some of the position is expressed (such as the notion that Irenaeus’s distinction between image and likeness of God is a developmental difference).
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No Man's Land said:
Sorry for the lateness of the response. I have been out-of-town since Friday.
1) The TOE is a scientific and, to some extent, philosophical matter. It is not a theological matter. Of course, scientific theories can have serious repercussions for theological views, but theological views do not determine the explanatory and predictive power of scientific theories, which is, precisely, the sort of thing that makes for good scientific theories–high explanatory and predictive power. And the TOE has high explanatory and predictive power which was what my original post attempted to convey through many different areas of inquiry. (As an aside, value judgments play a factor in scientific theories, sure, simplicity, elegance, heuristic promise, ethical considerations, etc, but these things are not as determinative when a theory has high predictive and explanatory power.)
However, I cannot prove the TOE is true because one cannot prove anything inductively. But, of course, one can make some proposition(s) more or less compelling by induction. And that is what I tried to do: demonstrate the TOE is a compelling argument for the evolution of life on earth.
So my goal was that: to persuade Christian TOE skeptics, with current empirical evidence, philosophical rigor, and classical theological understandings of Christianity, that there is nothing problematic for Christians in the TOE.
2) As for the Bosco stuff, I was at my wit’s end with him (and he with me, it seems). The rhetoric was stirring. At some point he was even accusing me of being a fraud and a joke, because he didn’t think I had a “scientific temperament” or something along those lines. So, the more the conversation went on, the more I wanted no part of it. I am embarrassed by that thread both for the way I acted and the way I was treated.
As for his point about crude oil, I cannot tell you anything about it, because I do not know anything about it. And I didn’t (and still don’t) know the relevance of the comment nor how one of his claims follows from another. The comment seems like one long non sequitur.
3) I would say that the early chapters of Genesis are consistent with, if not rooted in, many pagan creation stories, which are clearly mythical and poetical accounts of the origin of the world, life, and culturally relevant beliefs. Of course, I have no idea whether these cultures believed the accounts to be historical events, I imagine some members of those cultures did and some didn’t, but early Genesis fits the model of pagan creation stories.
I am no classicist or literary scholar, but I have read ancient creation stories. And early Genesis reads like those folk stories to me. So, if the early chapters of Genesis fit this mold, so to speak, then that surely affects the way we understand early Genesis.
Moreover, there are clear problems with a literalist reading of Genesis, e.g., days before the creation of the sun and Adam and Eve hiding from God and so forth. The allegorical hermeneutic does not say that there are not literal facts, but that there is more to Scripture than literal facts and that the best interpretation of some passage is not, necessarily, the one that must be taken at face value.
Also, this idea of a cutting-off point confuses me. Because I do not read the Bible as if the literal interpretation is the better interpretation, although it is sometimes. Nor do I think that the Bible has some one exclusively correct interpretation. Indeed I think as long as the Spirit is guiding the reader and the reader’s interpretation is in harmony with the mind of the Church and it testifies to Christ, then the reader can come to a true interpretation, but not necessarily the exclusively true interpretation. If this is not so, then that would be to suggest that the meaning of the Bible is in the text itself waiting to be discovered like the answers to some crossword puzzle. But if that were the way of biblical exegesis, then many of the doctrines that are most fundamental to Christianity would be all but lost. Because those doctrines are not in the text in the literalist exegetical way. But are, at best, ambiguous and rudimentary aspects of the Bible, and the basic elements of the faith can only be recovered within certain exegetical traditions–that is, a tradition where what we want out of the Bible is already known or the allegorical tradition.
Indeed I would argue that we would never have arrived at the current orthodox configuration of Christianity if we applied the literal hermeneutic.
So I see no need to separate allegorical and literal readings in the OT, if it could be done in the first place, because that is to mistake textual meaning in the second place.
4) Also, I am convinced that classical Christianity, at least in consensus, and by consensus I mean amongst the intellectual tradition, did not understand the creation narrative as historical or scientific fact. They understood it as true, sure, as scientific fact, no. Indeed this idea, for me at least, is uncontroversial. And it has been something of a shock that so much contentiousness on this subject has revolved around it. Again, I do not think the doctrine of creation commits any Christian to literal facts about the natural enfolding of that creation.
5) As for whether my view about creation is Orthodox, I refer you here for a short summary.
For a more detailed treatment, see John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends and Doctrinal Themes
Also see Athanasius, Contra Arianos, III, Origen, On First Principles, IV.ii.i. Basil, On the Six Days, I.vi. Gregory of Nyssa, Commentary on the Song of Songs, prologue, On the Six Days. Augustine, On Genesis Read Literally, V.xxiii. On the Trinity, III.ix.
Last, outside of the seven ecumenical councils, the licit range of theological belief is far broader than most Orthodox realize. On top of which, it is not clear in all circumstances what some council actually said. (think the 5th, for instance.)
Thanks for your response, Nicholas!
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ginnyfree said:
Wow. I very well thought out reply. Thanks for taking your time with it.
However I feel a need to let you know that the Church has always taken a literal view of the Genesis accounts of Creation. It has never changed in its interpretation or understanding of this. Thank you for expressing yourself and your personal ideas regarding these relevant issues, but do not try to speak for the Church or tell us what our own history says regarding this issue. We have never taken a position that Genesis could be mythological or poetical or interpreted in a way that distorts the very message contained therein in any other way then it has been interpreted thru the millenia. The non-issue issue you mention of the accounting to the 6 days is just that, a non-issue, for any person with a rudimentary knowledge of Scripture and our understanding of it knows this is not a mention of a passage of six 24 hour days, but a division of time in God’s time, not ours.
I can respect your well thought out response to all this and the fact that you feel confident enough to have developed and maintained a certain position, however it still remains your own personal interpretation and position. And while there are many educated persons who may hold similar if not identical positions, they do not speak for the Church or Christianity, but only for themselves. Should any of these persons expect the Church to revise its position based upon their steadfastness in their own research, then they will have trespassed upon territory not their own. Theology is not the slave of science.
I guess here is the appropriate place to say, on these matters we agree to disagree. Nuff said. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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