There are, gathered here on this blog, a wide variety of those who confess the name of Jesus as the name above all names; indeed, with our latest contributor, orthodoxgirl99, I think we now cover the whole Christian water-front, so to say. This is a joy, but can create problems. There at least one Catholic who used to comment here who who has refused to continue to do so because it has too ‘ecumenical’ a flavour. Our friend Bosco has written movingly of his own conversion experience, but, then rather spoils the effect by making insulting comments about ‘Cathols’; as a method of evangelisation, it leaves much to be desired. It may on may not be significant that the blog was founded by an Anglican, but that she, and the other two regular Anglican contributors have gone from here; my own view is that we have lost something by their absence.
But the very use of the words ‘Christian’ and ‘religion’ is anathema to some. Our long-time contributor and commentator, Bosco, seems to dislike both, asserting that all one needs to do it to knock on the door to be instantly saved. There is, it seems to me, some real spiritual danger in asserting this is the only way the Holy Spirit operates. In the first place, whilst the emotional intensity of that moment does last and deepen with some, there are those who, once the initial moment has passed, fall away. In the second place, it risks leaving those many Christians with whom the Spirit works in other ways, feeling as though they are somehow not ‘real’ followers of Jesus. Finally, it has a tendency to induce spiritual pride in some of the ‘saved’. To others it can, and often does, look as though the believer is saying they know they are saved and you aren’t. If there is a less helpful answer to the question ‘why isn’t God hearing me when I knock’ than ‘keep knocking’, I daresay someone knows it, but I am not sure anyone else wants to hear it.
How like the Corinthians we see in Paul’s first letter we are. Our various divisions (all historical) are stressed by us in contentious arguments – “I am of Cefas”, “I am of Luther”, “I am of the Spirit called” – and is this what Christ said? It was not Peter, nor Luther, nor ourself, whose blood redeems us all. Where there in envy, strife and division among us, we answer to Paul’s description of us as ‘carnal’ and as ‘acting like mere men’. There is no use a Catholic saying ‘you started it with your schism’, as I have heard Orthodox say the same thing. We all belong to Christ, who belongs to God. We are His servants, but do we act as though that were the case?
We know that the Spirit gives many gifts to the faithful, and it seems uncharitable and prideful to suppose that He does not appeal to each one of us according to those gifts. Perhaps those who are called to preaching and standing in harm’s way for the Gospel will respond better to the instantaneous call than those who are called to be teachers or stewards? Human diversity is one of the many gifts of God with which our selfish egos have a problem; but in diversity, Paul reminds the Corinthians, is unity in Christ.
This, surely, is why at this point in the first letter to the Corinthians, Paul gives vent to the great hymn of love, reminding them, and us, that whatever gift we have, nay, if we have all of them, and we lack love, then we are a ‘sounding brass or clanging cymbal’. Was anyone recognised as a follower of Jesus by their ability to beat down the other fellow in argument? Was anyone a good witness to the Crucified and Risen Lord by expressing his contempt for others? Faith and hope are splendid things, to have, but if we have not love for each other, what do we have? Some say that love for the brethren means only those who share your tradition, but it is hard to read the parables of the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan and extract that narrowness from them.
This seems to me a classic case of reading what we want into Scripture without taking its overall message of love into account. Paul is certainly not counselling the acceptance of immorality and sin among those who confessed Christ – quite the opposite, but as his comments about love and unity indicate, he was calling all who confess Christ’s name to renounce their carnality and to have unity in Christ. Our shared and divided histories make this hard for us, but it is our carnal natures which make it hardest, as it was for the Corinthians. If we truly put on the mind of Christ, and if we are truly mindful of Calvary and the empty tomb, then we do well to recall what Paul says about conduct which makes the weaker brethren stumble.
None of that is a call for some kind of syncretism. All the traditions of which I have been part have added hugely to my life as a Christian, and I should be much the poorer without what Anglicanism, Orthodoxy and Catholicism give me, and as one who has a much-loved son who is an Evangelical pastor, and another beloved son whose faith is of the same hue, I benefit greatly from that too. One advantage of having moved from one church to another is that it removes the fear and the misconceptions others have about them, without replacing those things with rose-tinted spectacles. If we are truly all of Christ, then we might bear in mind the words of St John which Jessica put on the masthead of this blog: ‘A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you … John 13:34’
Hi Chacedon, got to go, but am keen to comment later. Great post.
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I shall look forward to it 🙂
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I do miss Jessica.
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Me too. She is recovering slowly, and is content where she is.
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Ecumenical is good. It needs to become stronger. ‘Churches together’ means stronger familial ties as God’s hands on earth. More voices are better than one in the darkness, and from my perspective, it’s becoming imperative that we work in tandem for His glory and for the sake of the world and the people in it. I am currently working in tandem with staff from CSW (Christian Solidarity Worldwidehttp://www.csw.org.uk/about.htm) on a fundraising event at our parish. They have staff members who come from different countries and from different Christian denominations. When organising,initiating and meeting about the event, I mentioned that at the event I would be making the saints the focus. I observed and felt a visible recoiling from one of the members,it was ever so slight. I ignored it. It was not important. It’s not important. What is important is that we should look passed our differences and accept each other just as Christ would. We love and worship the same God. It’s just ignorance that separates us and fear of the unknown matched equally by assumption.
I came to this conclusion after attending the Churches Together meetings over the past few years . Sadly, only a handful of parishioners attend from our church and the same is can be said of the parishioners from the other churches too. What I’ve met incredible and inspirational Christians who are on the same journey I am from, who love Jesus like I do. They too want to understand me as I want to understand them. To take the first steps in order to bridge the divide.
This I think this is what’s important.
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I agree. One of the few advantages of having been in three Churches is that in each of the first two, I learnt enough about the Catholic Church to come to the point of realising that much of what I had been taught was wrong; and as a Catholic, I see the same thing in reverse.
1 Cor 13 is the key – and if we have that love, then whatever else we do not have will be made up by it.
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I remember a long time ago attending a churches together meeting with a friend the Anglican minister went on a bit about the lunatic fringe of Christianity. We took it all in good part and considered introducing ourselves as the lunatic fringe.
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That’s the spirit, Rob. To the world we are all fools 🙂
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Older parishioners (sadly) seem to attend the meetings I’ve attended. And what they’ve done recently, is to have the pastors and priest give a talk, make the introductions etc, etc. No lunatic fringe for us, thank goodness. Just mature Christians working together to understand each other and share ideas and points of view.
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The point is who is consider to be lunatic fringe – we have to be careful in this as Jesus warned that he who calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire.
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Sorry I’m lost here. Not sure of your point?
Are you saying working together for the good of church and furthering communication and understanding between Christians belongs only to those on the ‘lunatic fringe?’ If so then you’re sorely mistaken.
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No, the point I was making was who do some consider to be the lunatic fringe and are such judgements those we should be passing on one another? Particularly from a pulpit at a meeting of churches together as happened at the meeting I attended. I thought the very idea of churches together was to aid mutual understanding across denominations rather than the casting of objectionable slurs. There is little point of churches together unless we seek to rid ourselves of such attitudes.
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Thanks Rob. I think we have to be the change we want to see. I have not been to one meeting that has been ‘off colour’. The leaders work well together and there is a sense of respect for the good of all.
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Where is it that you are situated?
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New Malden , near Wimbledon.
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I am now living in Barbados we left Cardiff Wales 8 yrs ago to work with a small network of house churches here.
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Chalcedon
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Amen! Concur and very well said.
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Thank you, Neo 🙂
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🙂
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Good post C. Glad to see your link to I Corinthians 5 as it is a teaching lost in almost all ages. At one extreme, we judge the world and ourselves and at the other we stop judging the world and our own members which is not what St. Paul taught. Bot both have it wrong since those in the Church should be under the judgment of the Church. We seem to be in the latter phase at the moment where anything and everything is tolerated. Judgment is good and useful to keep the faith pure and undefiled but it is hard to judge those who don’t hold our beliefs until such time that they are convinced also of the same belief and wish to join with us. Then it is imperative that we make it clear to all that to sin is to corrupt the body of Christ and that they either repent and leave such sin or retreat back into the world from which they came.
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Thank you, my friend! It is important to keep the balance, as St Paul does, and far too easy for us to forget the fullness of his teaching.
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So true. “Who am I to judge?” if applied to the godless of the world is certainly the same response Paul made but when it comes to those within the Church totally unacceptable to him. 🙂
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I suspect Pope Francis has had occasion to regret those words because of the use to which they are put. Of course, in context, the Pope was saying that he was not judging a fellow priest on the basis of his rumoured homosexuality – but at his age he ought to have been aware of the likely reaction.
Mind you, I sometimes think he is playing with the liberal press.
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I have no earthly idea, quite frankly. 🙂
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Perhaps he doesn’t either?
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That would be my first guess.
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I was reading somewhere that he is a man who likes a joke – fine in a man, but in a Pope???
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I’ve heard the same but as Pope nobody will be laughing. Well, perhaps a few. 🙂
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I suppose it is hard, in your seventies, to break the habits of a lifetime – but he could try.
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And I would also suppose that the Holy Spirit would certainly supply the grace to make the move needed to lead Holy Mother Church should he have a desire to make that adjustment.
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I am sure that is right.
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I’m afraid he will remain an enigma for many years.
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Maybe a sphinx without a riddle?
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Maybe the answer to the riddle, “man” without the sphinx?
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Over 33,000 different denominations all claiming to be the true church of Christ. Does that say anything at all? Godbless Ginnyfree.
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I am not sure that they all do that, ginny. For example, the Anglicans would claim to be a branch on the vine, whilst Bosco despises all ‘religions’ and claims to know who is ‘saved’. It is, I think, something those of us who believe in Apostolic succession believe others claim – but often isn’t.
The Orthodox, or at least many, are particularly fierce about the novelties they say the Catholics have added to the Creed.
So I think what the argument is really saying is ‘I am right and you aren’t’.
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I can hear Christ in the saveds voice. When one has met him, one knows him and another can tell. Yes, its gonna piss off the religious. that’s just too bad. jesus himself said his sheep know his voice. the unsaved cant fathom what that is like. Well, get saved. Open the door and stop being an outsider.
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So you keep telling us. Jesus does not say this, but then I guess even if he did, you’d feel the need to explain it away. Jesus said his sheep know his voice – not that his sheep knew each others’ voices. I guess you can’t help misreading the Bible – your mind has been darkened and is given over to sin – Romans 1:28-32.
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Where else would one hear his voice? he doesn’t speak thru a speaker. He lives in the born again. You cant understand until you meet him.
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He promised his body and blood would be with the faithful in his church. This he does to this day and forever. You, preferring the devices and desires of your own heart, have turned from wisdom into folly, and God has given you over to your foolishness. Pray for Grace and to be conformed to His will so that your mind might be enlightened and renewed in him. Can you say, with Paul (Romans 1:12) that your mind is comforted to Christ?
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he promised his body and blood will be with his church. Well . that’s sounds like a go to me.
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So why do you keep denying there is a church? Why do you call his body and blood a ‘cracker’? Why, because your mind is darkened and God has given you over to vile ways.
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Ginneyfree, I think there may now be more than 33,000 Christian organisations. I have seen claims of 40,000 and from my involvement in a church planting movement I suggest (and thank God) that there are probably new ones springing up every day.
Chalcedon is quite right the vast majority of these do not claim to be ‘the true church of Christ’ in the exclusive way you have suggested. Most consider themselves to be ‘the church’ in that they are but a part of it. In the case of the church that was meeting in our home a very small part, trying to do our bit serving the lord, one another and the wider church.
I would explain it this way: – If a committee of a political part were meeting anywhere (say the Labour Party or Democratic Party) we might say that that the ‘Party’ was meeting in that place. In point of fact we would mean that it was just a portion of the part as representative of the whole, just so long as that part acknowledges and is conscious of its allegiance to the party as a whole.
So it is with the church according to Christ promise, for where two or three are gathered together in Christ name, He is there, and while His presence acknowledges the validity of a community there is ‘the church’.
This is how the scriptures approach things and why the apostle was precise in addressing his letters e.g. to “The church of God which is at Corinth” and sending his greetings to “The church in the house of Prisca and Aquila” rather than to the ‘Church OF Corinth’ or to ‘Prisca & Aquila’s Church’ as if any such a church could legitimately have some sort of exclusive existence.
No! Paul wrote to the church and that is what we know ourselves to be alongside all companies of believers who are in Christ.
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Hear, hear! ‘If there is a less helpful answer to the question ‘why isn’t God hearing me when I knock’ than ‘keep knocking’, I daresay someone knows it, but I am not sure anyone else wants to hear it.’ I’m very sorry to say C, he (Bosco) will not listen.
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It is a sign that something is wrong with his position that he has no answer to the obvious question but that one.
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C, then why do you and Servus continue to give him a forum?
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The fault is entirely mine, as I am sole moderator for the blog.
At the beginning, I should have responded by saying it was because Jessica was against him being banned, arguing that it accomplished nothing. By this stage, I have passed beyond that, going through a period when I thought it would be much easier to do what every other place he goes does – ban him. But there is, I think, something in him, and since his arguments are not uncommon, it may be of use to others, and in God’s Grace to him, to hear the arguments as to why his position is untenable as it is.
I make no claim to infallibility, but my conscience tells me it would be wrong to shut him out – although I do wish the Grace of God would come quickly 🙂
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The answer of a true Christian, albeit a stubborn one.
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I have given it long thought and prayer, and in many ways, keeping him goes against what I would like to do – and so I do the opposite of what my will wants. I can only hope it is what a higher Will wants.
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Just a comment that I have made that same journey, with the same waypoints and come to the same destination. Although I will admit that sometimes I merely skim his comments. 🙂
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So do I! I’ve only been here 5 minutes and I find the ‘record stuck in the groove’ a tad wearing. The same answer for everything which in fact is not much of an answer at all. More about beligerent arguing and mental fencing for the sake of it. Kyrie eleison.
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He’s here to ‘convert’ us all. So far, in nearly three years, he’s got nowhere. We try to help him, but I guess he needs to want to be helped. 🙂
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The record is stuck good sister orthodox girl. Open the door to Christ.
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Good brother Steve, the ol “ban him” mentality.
Good brother Chalcedo says I insult cathols. Take a deep breath and take a sober look. I maintain that the CC provides graven images and images for its flock to venerate, and many bow down befor them.
I maintain their clergy is full of wickedness. I maintain a man in a costume cant command god to come down from heaven. Jesus said he stands at the door and knocks. That bothers some here I guess.
I try not to insult the individual….just the practices of the religion. But, individuals will get offended. Yes, they have explained how wonderful images are. Still, god calls making an image corruption. You know, an image of spiritual things. Im gonna go with gods opinion.
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You do that, except when God says ‘this is my body, this is my blood’ – and then you explain away his words instead of believing them.
The plain fact is that the Church provides no images, it is the people who want them. The only person I ‘know’ who goes on about this is you. I know no ‘Cathol’ who is unable to distinguish between a picture and the reality of God.
What bothers me is the ignorant repetition of lies. Some priests are bad men, most are not. Jesus said many things, and when you say ‘keep knocking’ to those who have knocked and are discouraged, you do not do the work of Jesus.
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What else can I tell them? Demand to be born again. What else is there? Doing good deeds?
You keep going on about body and blood. It doesn’t matter if one is not born again. That one will not see the kingdom, no matter how many crackers one eats.
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No, it is Jesus and St Paul who ‘go on’ about the body and blood, and you have to explain away their words because you cannot fit them into your idolatry. You worship a God made in your own image Bosco, you are the only idol worshipper here. But your understanding has been darkened by sin, and God has given you over.
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Hey, that’s my line.
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Proverbs 15:28
The mind of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil.
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Apposite. I wonder if Bosco has actually read the post?
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I think it is rare that he does. Same with most of our answers to him. We have, as Proverbs said, pondered endlessly on what we can do answer to help him see . . . but the same tripe issues forth from his mouth from day to day. Polls, facts, scripture, logic, philosophy theology: all have been tried to no avail. Perhaps it is fruitless?
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Logic tells me so, but something else says hold off and trust in God.
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I actually thought I had him to some extent yesterday afternoon on the idol and statue business that he likes to harp on and on about. But alas, I see by his answer to Steve, that any concessions made were only lies and/or momentary results.
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This seems to be the pattern. But then if is mind is darkened, that is to be expected I suppose. A shame, as there are times when you can see much that is good in him. Still, we are all sinners, and this is a work of corporeal mercy, I guess.
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Reminds of the attempts to inculturate a feral child. I hope it isn’t quite that bad as I don’t think it has been successfully done yet.
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I think it is what one might expect from someone who has a real urge to know Christ but an animus against His Church.
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No urge there, I’m afraid, as he is convinced that he already knows him and few others exist that do. That is full-fledge fortress or wall we are dealing with.
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It is, but we rely not upon our own powers – and who knows what might breach that wall with Grace?
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We may have to resort to nukes . . . stocks and pillories might soften him up though. 🙂
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You know, I think he thrives on abuse and being told to go away, and being banned is for him a sign that he is right. I think he is unused to being debated with.
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That, of course, is most likely as he is very poor at debate and presenting a case for his beliefs. He relies on misreadings of scripture, articles from yellow journalism and Catholic hate sites.
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Yes, it is a sign that whatever he says, any conversion is superficial.
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Yes, you think I am evil. Jesus says all men are evil. Wecome fellow evil doers.
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No-one thinks you are evil. What most of us think is that you are profoundly misguided because your mind is darkened by your carnal nature.
The somewhat limited ability to engage in real argument shown by your need to repeat the same misinterpretation of Scripture over and over (nowhere does Jesus say ‘my sheep know one another” he says they know his voice) tends to become a little boring, or indeed, massively so.
Do re-read 1 Corinthians 13 and see how the master Evangelists advises us to proceed – and ask yourself whether you live up to it.
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Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Oh Mary , save me. Pray for me at the hour of my going to hell.
Oh, Newman said this and that and I follow his every word. I kneel at his shrine. I even have a statue of him in my smoking room.
Oh yes, I do whatever the current Pope says and I await his pronouncements. That’s because I am Catholic.
Oh wait, im Lutheran. Oh no no, im eastern orthodox. No no no, im SSPX. Wait a min, im a trad. Ou contrair, im nouvus ordo.
Got any more passages about being divided? Id love to read them.
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Reread what you wrote here Bosco. It makes zero sense. In what way do Mary, Newman and the Church Fathers disagree with Christ? They don’t agree with you in that they believe he founded a Church and gives his body and blood in the eucharist. So just who is the divisive one here if not you?
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Mary didn’t die for you, neither did good brother Newman. I made the point that many in here follow someone different. Its still a problem today as it was 2000 yrs ago. All are one in Christ. In Christ means the born again, not an org that claims its members are in Christ. Jesus himself said that the saved come and go and you don’t know where they came from or where they went.
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Again, you say things no one has said. I never said anyone but Christ died for me. Nor have I said I follow Mary or Newman, these are all examples of your inability to understand.
Mary, St Cyril, Newman, me, we all follow Jesus, and we all believe Jesus when he said he founded a Church; we all believe Him when he said the bread and wine are his body and blood. You, on the other hand, explain away his words because you don’t understand them.
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No Bosco Jesus did not say that checK JN 3 He said the Spirit moves as you have described.
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Bosco, I didn’t come to the ol “ban him” mentality easily. But like C says it has been 3 years of the same hatred of Catholicism. We all know the story. I’d like it if you would tell us what you loved instead of what you hated. Teach us about chess! What openings do you use? What are your favorite chess books? Do you have any opinions on the social issues of the day? How about politics? Enlighten us to who you think are the most deserving characters in literary or world history. Who is your favorite novelist or nonfiction writer? I other words, be interesting and add to our understand of the world.
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I use the Sicilian against p-K4 and P-K4 as white.
Politics is useless. Politicians are thieves and run after gain. The president obtains the kingdom by flattery.
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Ive gone up against the best cathols in Catholic Answers.com
You guys are good but they are the best. You guys keep saying that maybe Bosco might see the light. What light is that? What am I doing that isn’t in the light?
You wonder why im so stuck. don’t find out the hard way. You, my friends, I invite you to ask Jesus to come into your hearts.
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So, as far as you are concerned, becoming a Christian is not opening one’s heart to Christ. That does seem rather odd to most people who have chosen to follow Christ and fallen in love with Him above all things. Your self congratulations regarding your own much higher and more lofty condition than the ordinary Christian seems a tad arrogant . . . doesn’t it?
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Yes its arrogant. If any man boast, let him boast in the Lord. that’s how it is. Why don’t you get born again?
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Sounds more like you boast in yourself and this ‘self-perceived’ status that you’ve attained.
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If you read through what he and I have been discussing, you will see he is on the run. It will soon be time for him to go quiet and come back when the heat is off, and he will then repeat the cycle.
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A familiar modus operandi at this point. I shall look at it but am sure your analysis is probably correct.
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I was born again of the water and the spirit in Baptism the way Christ described it.
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Perhaps the light to see all the other words in the Bible except for the 7 words you repeat thinking that it is speaking of some physical or mental transformation that instantly makes you saved. Or the light that lets you understand that graven images and such are about worshipping demons and the belief that the image contains the spirit of that demon. Out of all the nearly 775,000 words in your KJV Bible and almost 900,000 in the NRSCE Bible. So you might get a bit more light if you didn’t base your entire message on about 2 dozen words.
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Since when did you care whats in the bible. You hate the bible.
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Now there you go again. Is that Jesus speaking through, or the father of lies. If you read anything Servus writes you will see a deep love of the Bible, as well as real knowledge of it. Why do you bother spouting such lies? If this is your witness, it is to a father of lies, not God.
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How come you don’t rebuke him when he says I don’t know anything about the bible? How come he doesn’t rebuke you when you say I speak for my father, the father of lies the devil?
I understand he recruits people into Catholicism. He must use the catechism. its called being catechized. The catechism is full of half truths. Ive seen it. Its called…”another gospel” And I am under orders of the high command not to give gods speed to such an one. But I still love him like my own brother.
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Because you don’t know anything about it. A parrot can repeat verses as you do, but a parrot would have an excuse for not understanding what he is saying; what’s yours?
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A liar always lies and spreads calumny. I see you would rather throw dirt on me rather than answer the question. A very good tactic if you’re a liberal or progressive politician. I guess its verification that these progressives are led by the Father of Lies.
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We have, he has, and you are so blinded by pride and ignorance that you cannot see it.
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I mitght be dumb and stupid, but I care for your souls, that’s why im here. I, we, only have so much time on this earth. Time is valuable.
Im the only one who has ever darkened this doorway who has said…”Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand”
For this, everyone in here calls for my head.
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No, they call for you to be banned because you come across as an ignorant bore who doesn’t understand Scripture. It suits your ego to present yourself as poor, mistreated Bosco, but you are one of the few here who insults other Christians. Perhaps a bit of repenting is called for in your own case?
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I cant wait until someone gets saved in here.
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Do read Rob’s comment on today’s Gospel commentary. You simply misunderstand what it means to ‘be saved’ because you insist on limiting God to working in one way. If you weren’t so ignorant, it could be taken for arrogance.
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I think good sister jess came the closest and might even be saved now.
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