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Dutch Reformed Church, Evangelical and Reformed Church, Lutheran Church, Reformed Church in America, United Kingdom, United States
I was moved by Chalcedon’s remarks on his family in Among the Ruins. My family’s experience is not dissimilar. Yes, there’s going to be some church history here.
My parents were brought up in the old Norwegian Synod, which became part of the American Lutheran Church, which centered mostly in the upper midwest. For the most part these are the offshoots of the Scandinavian Lutheran churches, and became probably the most conservative part of the ELCA, as it remains to this day, which is why I still belong to it. But when they moved to Indiana, there was nothing especially close, although years later the LCA and the Missouri Synod would cooperate in quite a few things.
But they ended up in the Evangelical and Reformed Church. This was essentially the Church of Prussia that King Frederick Wilhelm III forced into existence by merging the German Lutheran and Reformed churches. As you can imagine serious followers of both Luther and Calvin were dismayed, beyond endurance. This is the church that my sisters and I were all confirmed in. To this day, the window over the door of the sanctuary of my home church reads Salem Ev. and Reformed Kirche.
When they ended up in Pennsylvania, my sister and her husband ended up in the southernmost church of the old Dutch Reformed Church. I should probably note that both had been hooked into the maelstrom of the United Church of Christ, that product of the ecclesiastical merger mania of the 1960s. Like the Church of Prussia before it, it tried to yoke oxen and horses, and found it a very balky team.
My family in Pennsylvania still belong to this church, and in fact, my sister was (and my brother in law still is) a leader of the congregation. As are my nieces, who in fact are not all that much younger than I am. But interestingly, in talking with them about various things, I have found that my nieces faith is quite shallow, they are leaders, and officers of their church but, they have a fairly shallow faith. Given my experience, I put it down to belonging to a church, that is neither fish nor fowl.
My experience is somewhat different. When I moved out here, there was essentially no UCC available, and so the choice became either Lutheran or Methodist. It wasn’t a very hard choice to go back to the ELCA, essentially it was coming home after a generation. 🙂
But you know, the ELCA is not the LCA that I knew on summer vacations as a child growing up in Minnesota, that was never a particularly conservative church, to my mind, but the corporate ELCA is on a par with (and in communion with) the Episcopal Church in America.
And so we go back into Lutheran history a bit. When the King forced that merger in Germany, a lot of Lutherans (Calvinists too, but that’s not germane to my history) felt that he was corrupting the teachings of their churches, and when civil and even criminal penalties started being imposed, a good many left. This is when Lutheranism really got going in the United States (Australia and New Zealand, as well). This is origin of the old Buffalo Synod. It drew heavily on what is called Old Lutheranism.
There was another group, from Saxony, which founded a synod based on mostly Neo-Lutheranism, which developed in reaction against theological rationalism and pietism, with an increased focus on Lutheran distinctiveness and and the Lutheran Confessions, as well as the historic liturgy. It paralleled the rise of Anglo-Catholicism and in fact is occasionally called German Puseyism. This is the origin of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Over time it became the second largest Lutheran synod in the United States.
Interestingly the ELCA, because of its full communion with the Episcopal Church, is (maybe, kind of, sort of, I haven’t yet figured out if there is an authoritative answer) in communion with the Church of England, and it shares many of its problems. As do many of the liberal churches (I would say it because of a lack of vision, in the faith and too much subservience to the state).
But the LCMS has also formed partnerships with the Evangelical Lutheran Churches across Europe and the world, which are in many cases the remnants of the old Lutheran churches in Germany. Even in the UK, where is 1896 a group of German bakers in Kent, asked Concordia Seminary in St. Louis to provide a pastor for them with assurances that they would support him. That mission has now grown to have churches in England, Scotland, and Wales, including training pastors in Cambridge.
If you know me, you know that I will likely at some point end up in the LCMS, simply because it matches better what I believe, or even what is often its subset: The Confessional Lutheran Church. A lot of the reason I haven’t is practical, the difference between five blocks and about fifty miles.
But I’m hardy alone in that yearning, the ELCA is at best flat in its membership and in many cases drying up, while LCMS is continuing to grow. That tracks with what I see in other denominations, the more demanding churches are growing while the ‘go along to get along’ ones are not. I think it more a matter of vision and the mission than anything else.
In many ways I think the development of the various churches in the United states almost makes a laboratory case for their predecessor churches in Europe, because here without state support, they have to make their case to the parishioner, That can, of course, lead to apostasy but it can also lead to real piety, depending on how well the people understand the purpose of the church, itself.
And so I continue to wonder if a good part of the Anglican church’s problem isn’t simply that it has, as the Established Church, this mandate from the state to be all things to all men, instead of a church serving only God. It never worked all that well for Rome, or in Germany, maybe it’s run it course in England as well, or maybe it simply needs to wrest control, once again, from the state and entrust it to men of vision. Because, historically, it has been one of the mainstays of the Faith, and I would hate to see it go down.
In truth, because I suspect, of Virginia’s influence on our early history, it (in its Episcopal form) has become our church for state functions as well. Where else but the National Cathedral could one have a state funeral for a Protestant?
I’m surprised that you will probably become a member of the LCMS one of who’s articles of belief is, “The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person is to be identified with the Antichrist.[17] However, to the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent, the LCMS position is that the office of the papacy is the Antichrist.[17]”
My son is a member of a Conventual Presbyterian Church called “The Barn” in Ct. It adheres to the Westminster Confession even more Anti-Catholic than the LCMS.
In this day and age such beliefs are strange to say the least.
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They also had this gem as written in Section 14 of the 1932 ‘Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod of Lutherans’: “As to the question why not all men are converted and saved, seeing that God’s grace is universal and all men are equally and utterly corrupt, we confess that we cannot answer it.” But at least they have admitted that they have created a mystery as to whether or not God is a tyrant or a benevolent God I suppose. I wonder how many Lutherans actually accept that Calvinist position though? Perhaps it is only taught amongst their theologians? We have some goofy theologians as well . . . so I wonder.
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I’d guess that all churches accumulate some goofy odd and ends over time. Actually that sounds like an answer crafted to oppose Universalism, and as such it’s not all that bad really, cause we don’t know.
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Actually the context of the page was about God picking and choosing whom He would give His grace to . . . in the form of the Elect. In other word’s babies being born without any chance at all of salvation . . . the old Calvinist problem.
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Makes sense, and yes, it’s something we’ve been fighting since Luther and calvin themselves. Traditionally our view has simply been that God can do as he pleases and it’s not for us to judge, Even the Church of Prussia was more liberal about it than Rome was historically, since we would allow the burial in Holy Ground of unbaptized infants. Predestination is an easy misreading to make as well.
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Of course It was never the official teaching or practice of the universal Church to prohibit the burial of non-baptized people in consecrated cemeteries. It was, however, the practice of individual bishops and pastors. This was due to the scriptural understanding of the need for Baptism (although we have understood that unbaptized adults can be saved . by desire or by blood and one might hope that the innocent child also is saved by blood or by circumstance: the indefiniteness of theology on this points to the mystery of salvation, indeed). It is this that led the people to come up with Limbo though it was not an officially taught theology for the souls of infants. Again, you rightly say, predestination is a difficult subject and must be handled delicately. In my opinion the pastors were wrong to deny their burial but then they must have been convinced of some theological writers take on this issue or it would never have happened. At least, to state again, it was not an official position or teaching of Rome.
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May be so but, as always, actions speak louder than words.
https://nebraskaenergyobserver.wordpress.com/2012/10/15/luther-the-faith-of-unbaptized-infants-de-profundis-clamavi-ad-te-domine/
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I remember your telling of the story well but it still does not make it a Roman Catholic Church universal practice. The same could be said of those who committed suicide in the past. Psychology and other mitigating circumstances are modern discoveries and allows us to form no judgment on the individual’s state of grace or where his soul will spend its eternity. So not having a teaching or universal practice is not a good enough response or excuse – we have to somehow police every priest in the faith according to our modern understanding on every issue that arises within his pastoral oversight I guess. In such a case personal sin (in this case, poor discretion, by our modern understanding) is not allowed a priest or a personal theological understanding on issues yet to be resolved definitively (and probably never will). Though today most pastors would probably rather err on the side of mercy to the family members, which makes sense. I have no idea if this was rare, localized or held by a fairly large number of priests at the time. At least he though he was doing the right thing theologically; so intent is worth something.
As we Christians are still unraveling and unpacking theology from the Scriptures and the writings of the Apostles it seems that we sometimes project too much on individuals who were merely operating according to how they learned the theology in their day. I’m not comfortable with the fairness of that position either.
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Yep, it’s still in there, and it is, in fact, the historic Lutheran belief. That said, it’s nearly a dead letter, signifying only that the LCMS doesn’t do interfaith services much, although in does do inter (Lutheran) synod charity work to some extent.
Yep, the Reformed were/are considerably more anti-Catholic than we ever were
And in truth, as you know, I have structural problems myself with the Papacy, although not with the Popes themselves (usually)
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NEO, I gathered that, but to call the Papacy the Anti-Christ is so Anti-Catholic and has been shown many times over to be a total mis-reading of the Bible. It’s not only appalling but a major bone of contention between the two Faiths. From my personal point of view in the 21st Century…laughable.
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i pretty much agree with you but I also know that trying to remove it would start a row in the church. I suspect it’s pretty much a matter of letting sleeping dogs lie. I’ve never heard it used in any Lutheran gathering.
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I should have called ,”The Covenant Presbyterian Church.”
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Hello NEO and thanks for a great topic too close to my heart for me to say nothing. I took the time and trouble to look up all the 18 different denominations you list in your very extensive personal history of your own spiritual journey. Great job of keeping it all straight! My goodness – you really know your church’s history! I’m impressed. I found all the dates of the founding of the various denominations and here is what I found: Norwegian Synod, founded 1853; American Lutheran Church founded 1960; Scandinavian Lutheran Church, no real foundational date, it varies as the three or four countries included in a movement called Scandinavianism began in the 1830’s; ELCA or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, founded 1988; Evangelical and Reformed Church, founded 1934; Church of Prussia, founded 1817; German Lutheran Church, founded 1546; Reformed Church, founded 1549; Old Dutch Reformed Church, founded 1680; United Church of Christ, founded 1957; Methodist, founded 1729 (c.); Episcopal Church of America, founded 1607; Old Buffalo Synod, declared 1886; Old Lutheranism, split trying to join another church circa 1830’s; Neo-Lutheranism, founded 1830’s (c); Anglo-Catholicsm, 1833; Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, founded 1847; Evangelical Lutheran Church, founded 1988.
Now, juxtapose this listing with the prayer of Jesus on Holy Thursday in the Garden of Gethsemane before He went to the Cross for our sins which can be found in the 17th Chapter of the Gospel of St. John:
1 When Jesus had said this, he raised his eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him. 3 Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. 5 Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began. 6 I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you gave me is from you, 8 because the words you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them and truly understood that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, 10 and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. 11 And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. 12 When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely. 14 I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 17 Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. 19 And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. 20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them even as you loved me.”
I emphasized the parts I’d like to focus on, namely that Jesus was praying for UNITY among us so that HIS MESSAGE of Salvation would convert those He intended to send in His Name, the Apostles who’s mission it would become to build the One True Church God willed there to be! It is God’s will that we be ONE, period end of bickering, backbiting and scandal! There isn’t supposed to be an endless multiplication of denominations all over the world in all ages ad nauseum! I belive in God thru His Word given to me by the Church who does exactly what the passage I cited says and I am among “those who will believe in me (Jesus Christ) through their (the Apostles’ ) word…” Yeah. This is the Catholic Church, founded 33 A.D. and still the same, built by God upon the rock of Peter, the first Pope, His Vicar on earth. Yes, NEO, I really can compare and contrast. Really nice title. Thank you.
I do believe. Can you say the same? No obviously you don’t. Please don’t take that the wrong way. I really feel pity for those who are scandalized by the endless “Whose-got-the-true-Truth” game. It wasn’t what Jesus sent the first men for then and it isn’t now and it hurts everyone who has to try and make sense out of it. It just breeds despair and confusion. I’ve actually wept over things I’ve heard through the years that some poor souls go through just trying to love and follow Jesus. And it also makes me mad because I know in my heart that the Church God founded is meant to be only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. That is what He said before He went to the Cross and at the cost of His Precious Blood we are to work to keep it exactly that way: Unified as the One true Church! I sincerely hope you don’t take these words of mine as hurtful or impolite or mean in spirit or worse as a bigot, etc. I’ve been called all kinds of nasty things for simply seeing it the way Jesus did before He died for me and everyone else who bears His Holy Name as a Christian! I can still “hear” Him as He prays this on Holy Thrusday night and it speaks to my heart: “that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE.” How can anyone read that, know it is God’s Prayer spoken to His Father in Heaven the night before the accomplishment of His Redemptive death on the Cross and work against it? That is the part I don’t really get. To divide His Church is to work against Him directly. I wouldn’t want to be the one judged on that degree of sin. I apologize if I offend, but I’ll hide behind Jesus’ own words and say, may none be offended in Me. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Remember Ginny, that some of those are not churches, Neo lutheran and old lutheran are more akin to calling some catholics Traddy really. Synods often formed simply because some way was needed to administer the churches, often the language had much to do with it, especially before World war One and its persecutions against german (and for that matter Germanic) languages. A lot of the whole mess goes back to Frederick Wilhelm III’s meddling, and forcing the merger. But yeah, its a bit complex, but it all traces back to getting the theology right.
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Bravo! We should all be Catholic Christians. A house divided against itself will never stand.
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So, come on in Steve. We’d love to have you. There’s a bit of pew in a parish near you. Visit soon and stay for an Eternity you won’t regret! It is after all, God’s will. Simply admit it. Jesus died for you. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well , you mean well, but one will regret it if one dies in the clutches of a false religion. that makes it even sadder. because one believe one is doing what god wants and then wakes up in hell. That’s I contrast to those who don’t care and just die unsaved. Jesus will say”i never knew you” . he doesn’t want a mouth full of crackers or brownie points for visiting shrines…he wants to know you personally.
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Oh fudge. I apologize. The silly WordPress thingy didn’t accept my bolded parts so you really will have to guess at what parts I emphasized. SORRY! Can someone show me how to bold things around here? Grrrr…..I’m frustrated. blathery blathery fudge fudge. Oh phooey. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Just a test to see if I can bold in comments. 🙂
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SF is a silly show off! you silly man…..oooooo phooey phooey blathery blather. 😡
Ginnyfree.
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okie dokie – word to be bolded. Please I beg pardon everyone while Ginnyfree plays with new toys. She will be back in her right mind shortly so, have patience with her. She means well.
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Now you have it. Use an “i” instead of a “b” for italicized.
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Well yes I can. Simply place the () immediately before the test that you want to bold and the end of the bolded should have (</b) next to the last letter. Do not type the parentheses only the less than and greater than symbols.
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OK. I guess I will have to tell you rather than show you. Before the letter that begins the text that you want to bold insert a . That will start the bolding – just 3 keystrokes. To end the bolding and at the end of the last letter, do not use a space, insert the sign. Everything in between will be bolded.
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That didn’t work. ‘less than’ sign, followed by a letter b end with the ‘greater than’ sign. To end you do the same but add a slash / just before the b.
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Here is a web page that shows all the HTML that you need to format your comments.
http://www.w3schools.com/HTML/html_formatting.asp
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Thanks for the link SF. It works! I apologize. You aren’t a silly man. any more. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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🙂
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In Puritan colonial New England the infant mortality rate up to 5 years old was 80 %. The grief was so heartbreaking the Puritans invented a twisted theology to ease the pain. Children were considered unregenerate until early teens and later baptized. Until then children were considered in limbo with no souls. That was to lessen the pain of loss but despite the crude theology here, it certainly did not ease the grief and was a masked acceptance of death of children. See THE PURITAN WAY OF DEATH book. This was the view of Congregational way but Presbyterian Puritans baptized at birth to give the baby some credentials for salvation in the event of early death. Of course it is God who has predetermined the Elect. I believe baptism is also a sacrament for the parents as they declare before God and congregation their intent to raise the child “in Christ”.
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You may be right Carl, I simply don’t know. I do know that infant mortality was very high through all parts of society, not merely the Puritans, and didn’t really improve until the late nineteenth century.
The idea that God has predetermined our fate is simply wrong, if he has there is simply no reason to do the right thing, and that was not what jesus taught. baptism is required to be saved, as jesus taught. God can, since he is God, make exceptions of course, for those stillborn, or whose parents were not able to get the child baptized, but that is the rule He gave us.
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