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Anglican Communion, Archbishop of Canterbury, Christianity, Decline of the west, Episcopal Church (United States), Great War
In his post What has gone Wrong?, Chalcedon told us that the Bishop of Durham noted in 1928 that
I was reading (as one does) some addresses given by the Bishop of Durham in 1928 to his diocese. In it he laments the way in which cries of ‘equality’ are leading some to try to force the issue of women’s ordination on the Church. Foreseeing the day in which women will take on a more active political role, he makes two points: the first is that such women will not be much interested in being wives and mothers, which would mean that ‘the feminine influence which will be brought into English public life will not be the best’; and that it will lead to a ‘collapse of elementary morality’. How, he wondered, in a public disengaging from Christian knowledge, would it be possible for people to understand the real, theological objections, to the idea?
His second worry was the declining number of vocations. In 1914 Durham had had 238 assistant curate; by 1928 it had 96. During that period the number of working clergy had fallen by 142. The old ways in which the Church had kept in touch with the people, through house to house visits, was declining and must, he thought, decline further; and Church Schools, the other main point of contact, were also ceasing to be informed by a Christian ethos. Parson were, he lamented, becoming merely minister of a congregation, not of their parishes.
That certainly rings bells with us doesn’t it, Catholic or Protestant? it’s pretty much what we’ve been saying for the last sixty years.(seems like forever though. doesn’t it?) Chalcedon’s point, and mine as well, is that these problems aren’t the result of Vatican II (although it may have exacerbated them) or even Lambeth, which overturned the traditional Protestant teaching on contraception and such.
Historically the Protestant churches were much more pro-family than the Roman church ever was, that was one of the reasons for the (near) end of monasticism in our churches. An easy example, more than ten per cent of the women getting married in pre-revolution New England were already pregnant. Yep. Right there in the heart of Puritan-land.
Writing in The Guardian on 14 April 2015 Andrew Brown says this:
The British have lost faith in religion much faster and more completely than they have lost faith in God. The most recent survey to show this comes from Win/Gallup, which found that Britain appeared one of the most irreligious countries on earth, with only 30% calling themselves “religious”. On the other hand, only 13% said they were atheist – compare this with the Chinese figure of around 60%. It may be that the English, especially, regard atheism as a kind of religion, or at least a manifestation of an unhealthy interest in religious questions. But I think that the explanation is more complex. British Christianity is in trouble because Britain itself is disappearing.
Immigrant religion is still thriving here, whether it is Christian or Muslim. But that is because it has an entirely different relationship to the surrounding culture.
The second sort is not about conscious belief at all, but about assumptions: the things that everybody knows are true without ever needing to think about them. […]
For the past two or three hundred years, at least since the civil war, most British Christianity has been like that. Then, in the last 50 years, it fell off a cliff. In the last 30 years alone attendance at mainstream churches has just about halved. The way this has happened is also important: adults did not stop going to church, but they failed to transmit the habit to their children and now they are dying out. The culture has changed and the Christianity which was so deeply rooted in the old culture has had its roots torn up.
Without disputing his facts, because I think they’re likely close to correct, I think his analysis superficial; this came from somewhere.
I suspect some came from the heated dispute between the Protestant and the Anglo-Catholic branches of the Anglican communion, particularly around the turn of the twentieth century when the Protestant branch tried to use political power to suppress the Anglo-Catholics. in many ways it sounds more like a loss of faith in the Established Church than anything else. But it’s more than that as well, because it is affecting all Europe and to a somewhat lesser extent the United States as well.
So what did it? On Jess’ post Epithets and Wars, Francis made the comment:
[…]It has long been my opinion that Western society and culture suffered a collective nervous breakdown when faced, in 1914–1918, with the hideous reality of what its much-vaunted civilised values had led it to. And while the worst of that breakdown was to be played out in the political sphere, it was artists (in every field) who most clearly reflected it. Dadaism and Surrealism may seem to have little in common with Kipling, but (in the pieces you have quoted) there is the same fundamental loss of faith in everything which had been an unquestioned reference point in the pre-WWI world.
And we are still living with that cultural/ideological nervous breakdown. Western Christianity survived that breakdown longer than most other elements of the culture, but is now in headlong collapse as the consequences of that breakdown catch up with it. Those of us who reject the new value system which is our society’s misguided attempt at a coping mechanism are in for a rough ride.
If she’s right, and I think it a fairly strong possibility, what we are seeing is not some crisis of faith in God or even the churches, as it is simply a loss of confidence in ourselves, our societies, and especially our so-called leaders.
That it would happen about a generation after our societies tore themselves apart for the second time in thirty years is not really all that surprising, is it?
So maybe we again come back to Yeats’ and The Second Coming
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity
Perhaps Churchill’s “small men and great events” did more damage than we could perceive.
Reblogged this on rennydiokno.com.
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Hello Neo. Some interesting points. I’ll see what develops. However, I do take exception to the statement you make about the Protestants always being more pro-family then us Roman Catholics have ever been. This is an incorrect distortion of the truth about the Church. We’ve always been pro-family. Our Consecrated Religious who live out vows of chastity for the sake of the Kingdom and celibacy in our Priesthood doesn’t mean we think marriage and children are to be discouraged, but that the sacrifice of this legitimate good is a true and valued sacrifice for the sake of the Kingdom and is in imitation of the Christ who we follow. We in the Roman Catholic Church have always treasured the procreative aspects of the marital bond and know full well that this lived witness to Christ is pleasing to God and whose reward is Heaven when lived in accord with the plan of Salvation given us by Christ. We know that the marital bond is procreative and is in accord with all the Creator, who is God, wills for mankind and we become partakers in His creative actions when we are fully open to life within the bonds of matrimony. We as catholics hold the intimacy between husband and wife as something sacred and set apart by God Himself for those who legitimately partake of the goods of married life. Just because a portion of our Community declines marriage for the sake of the Kingdom doesn’t mean we aren’t pro-family as you suggest. I felt it necessary to speak up about this. Thanks for listening. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Well, Ginny, it’s not worth a fight but that’s what the source documents indicate all the way from the Apostle’s on. Sex is to be discourage and denigrated, it’s better to be chaste butt if you can’t help it, get married. But in truth, it’s a small point, among friends. What I was really highlighting is how we protestants moved, and how fast. 🙂
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Show me the source documents of which you speak, NEO, for I am unaware of such. I, like Thomas, won’t buy it until I can put my finger in the side of this statement.
If you are referring to Paul’s discouraging marriage to those converts and perhaps future priests of the Church to stay as they are (i.e. celibate and undivided in their service to Christ and the Church — a type of marriage itself and fecund with generated saved souls) is not the same as saying that we were anti-sex when marriage was also considered a sacrament and consummation was the sign of a sacramental marriage during the day. So far from being discouraged was seen as the fulfillment of the marriage bond. In fact, they were far more concerned with barrenness in marriage than we are today.
I, like Ginny, thought you kind of ran off the rails with that particular statement, but the rest of your post was good and interesting. 🙂
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Yes, I started with the Pauline Epistles/ I also used Luther, specifically: http://oodegr.co/english/protestantism/louther_antimonaxismos1.htm. especially the impression that the clergy are better Christians than others because of their celibacy,
and Rosenthal “Human Sexuality: From Cells to Society” page 10:
“https://books.google.com/books?id=d58z5hgQ2gsC&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=lutheran+church+sex+and+contraception+in+edwardian+america&source=bl&ots=YtJVcDdUft&sig=XvdVhXTuPfxPYuOdAK4VJA9Rhbk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ix8tVfb7FsW5ggSuvYG4Cg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=lutheran%20church%20sex%20and%20contraception%20in%20edwardian%20america&f=false
Off the rails? No. But it’s a minor point made to illustrate my point in the huge turnaround in Protestantism.
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Ah. So you use Luther, a failed Augustinian Monk, whose spiritual directors admitted had problems with handling a lack of consolations in his prayer life and spirituality; for he was more prone to spiritual states of desolation which, had he paid attention to his spiritual advisors, is a normal occurrence in spiritual growth? He failed the test and turned his eyes toward the mechanics of religion and his list of things that he did not like rather than the heart and soul of the spirituality that he was supposed to be engaged in. But that is a story for another day as well.
Even so, if this were true (and yes a consecrated life is more pleasing to God than an unconsecrated life – as one is an indirect mirroring of the marriage of one’s soul to Christ and the other is direct), it says nothing of sex. It is a statement on the value of vocations. The vocation to ‘serve God only’ does not denigrate the vocation of those who are called to the married life but fulfills it in the spiritual sense. “Many are called but few are chosen.”
The Church has always taught that sex within marriage is not simply ‘good’ but holy as well. This is part of what we recently lost after people began using contraception.
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Yep, and I could just as well have use St. Augustine himself, or half a dozen others. That attitude runs all through monasticism and asceticism as well.Note that I didn’t say the Church was anti-family, they just weren’t as pro family.
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But sex outside of marriage is not pro-family. I am assuming that you are using the oft quoted business with Augustine saying to God, “Give me the gift of celibacy . . . just not now.” That was from his rakish days of promiscuous sex outside of marriage and was sort of his way of telling people the way that we humans react to giving up that which we desire. As a priest and a bishop he had no fall from his vows of celibacy. It is used by his detractors in the most inappropriate way , , , and devoid of his message.
I believe you are taking to heart a bit more from Martha Rosenthal than you should in this. She is no expert in theologies of either Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam or Judaism (which I assume she is a non-practicing version). Her writing reminds me of the all the pop-psychology that is so popular in the mainstream of psychology today. Her point of view is strictly a type of amoral, sectarian, evaluation from her own perspective and she uses whatever facts and quotes she can gather (whether in context or not, to make case.
Her business on the Church forbidding sex on certain days during in a certain page in history of the faith is fully out of touch with the thinking of the Church. We have always been a Church that taught that Christians were to be a penitential people and that the more difficult the desire is to separate one one from the more easily one can turn their minds to God. We have dumbed such penance down over the years to where we were only requiring meatless Fridays . . . and even that proved too stringent for some an so it was dropped for a penance of our own choosing. We’ll that didn’t work as I bet most Catholics don’t know that we are to have a Friday penance and ignore doing anything at all. We used to combat the desires of the flesh and the desires of the stomach, the most basic desires of man for penance and now when we are released we simply church the idea of penance at all. I would also guess that not many abide by the Lenten fasts and abstinence that is still required of the faith. We threw out the baby with the bathwater in this instance.
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Indeed Ginny, contraception is probably the biggest thing that affected the Catholic Church in the last 50 years or so. The declining priesthood can be traced back to the average Catholic Family having changed from 5-10 children to 1 or 2 children. What mom or pop wants to be left without any grandkids? In a large family it was no big deal to propose to your children the idea of serving God in the priesthood or the religious life. With these planned small families today, not many parents are eager for their children to serve God in this way.
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Oh yes, our catholic priests are called to celibacy in order to serve god better Oh thank you Mary. Our celibate catholic priests call god down from heaven so we can re sacrifice him over and over again. All our clergy are celibate, that’s who the world can know that the catholic church is the one true holy apostolic universal one true church that Christ founded. there is now no doubt that Catholicism is the true way. Thank you Mary
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The internal VatiLeaks report, according to La Repubblica, indicated that gay clerics in the Vatican were being blackmailed. The report was also said to document the alleged gay lobby’s social structure and customs. Yet details concerning gay priests’ gatherings added up to old news: the tales had been told in articles previously published by La Repubblica itself. Sensationally, the newspaper suggested that Benedict’s concern about the alleged gay lobby was one reason he had suddenly resigned the papacy.
Months later, another leak of confidential information brought the subject of a gay lobby back into the news. Someone took notes during what was meant to be a private meeting between Latin-American Church leaders and the new Pope, the former cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, Archbishop of Buenos Aires, now known as Francis. In June, those notes were published on a progressive Catholic Web site. Francis was quoted as saying, “The ‘gay lobby’ is mentioned, and it is true, it is there … We need to see what we can do.”
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/12/gay-clergy-catholic-church-vatican
Oh no.This must be a protestant lie. Protestants are always lying about our true church tht Christ founded. All the way back to the very first damnable protestant Martin Luther, Who spoke nothing but lies against the one true holy pure and white church. he should have shut up and said nothing. That’s what us good catholics do, is to mind our own business.Everyone knows that to be a catholic priest one has to be celibate. And its against church teaching to be homosexual. So pay no attention to these protestant lies.
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Hello Everyone. As an aside, I really think Church attendance is only one part of living the Christian life. What we do for one hour once a week is only that, one hour once a week. If we don’t use that one hour to learn something from Someone about living the one hundred and sixty seven hours of the week won’t be lived worth much of anything and if you ask me, it is how we live those one hundred and sixty seven OTHER HOURS that makes us truly Christian. Otherwise, every word we spoke on Sunday in praise and prayer is only lip service. Ya gotta live it. Be the change you want to see. You may be the only BIBLE another person reads! Chastity in marriage shows and all the world sees it or not when you are out there in it. Think about this one: when you are at work with the guys and a pretty gal walks by, do you drool and joke around with your pals about her or stop it when it gets started by saying something else when they do it? Be honest. You could talk to no end about Jesus and His great and mighty deeds and His saving graces and love for all, but if you tell the bad jokes even for a minute, you ruin all that good work and become to those who hear you a hypocrite and they know it. It could take years to repair that small momentary lapse of good sense and carrying any message, especially the Gospel message won’t work any more. It gives scandal and scandal stops those who need the Message from listening to the messengers He sends. Yeah. For the sake of the Kingdom, live a chaste life for all to see. Jesus did. Follow Him. God bless. Ginnyfree.
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Is it OK to appreciate beauty without drooling?
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