Ecumenism, Moral Issues and Scandal
Some unexpected consequences are seen in the area of ecumenism. We have seen a Pope receive the mark of Shiva on his forehead, pray in front of a tabernacle with a statue of Buddha resting on top and recently a Pope kissed the feet of a Muslim on Holy Thursday. All of this is presumably for the sake of Ecumenism.
“11. The way and method in which the Catholic faith is expressed should never become an obstacle to dialogue with our brethren. It is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.” __ Decree on Ecumenism
Did the above actions meet the criteria of the Decree? Was this an example of the expression of the Catholic Faith being changed so that it did not become an obstacle to our dialogues with other faiths? A ‘false irenicism’, or ‘false peace’, seems to have been the method and the expressed message to the world while the purity of our Catholic doctrine suffered loss or at least had the meaning and witness clouded. These things have shaped the Catholic message to other religions ever since. The progressives are giddy and emboldened as are the followers of other religions who hold us in derision.
Our approach to morality seems to have changed in this post-conciliar age as well. We do not hold anyone to account, who profess being Catholic, for practicing certain immoral misbehavior or lobbying for changes to our moral teaching. We act as though, perhaps, if we ignore the fact that 80% of Catholics practice contraception, the problem will go away or that the problem does not really exist. We also act as if the scandalous actions by Catholics of some notoriety is not enough to warrant excommunication or the refusal of the sacraments although they have been told repeatedly that, as Catholics, they have no right to push for some of their immoral agendas: same sex marriage and abortion among the most egregious.
Recently we see the advocation for a new practice concerning the divorced and remarried (without an annulment); some think they should be given a pass on their particular mortal sin. So why not? If those who are providing scandal (by contacepting or advocating for abortion) are not condemned, nor are they excluded, why not these as well? In fact, all the others are still considered, presumably, to be Catholics in good standing. It seems to be hypocrisy at best. Some Catholic’s would love to have an explanation from the Church about this.
So we have been systematically dumbed-down in our Catholicism and our teachings while those who are keen in retaining all of the teachings of the Church are routinely counted among the rad-trads or traditionalists; which, of course, is liberal speak for the intolerant and the unaccommodating among us. I am not saying that there are not people who go to extremes on this end of the spectrum as well but that anyone attempting to hold to tradition or any desire to witness a more appropriate and dignified Liturgy is treated as a leper by the majority of Catholics.
So we write letters of praise for the ‘nuns-on-the-bus’ and condemn the Franciscans of the Immaculate in almost the same breath. Seemingly these labyrinth walking, followers of Sophia Wisdom, who still push for women priests are preferred by the Church over the traditional monastic orders who only want to pray the extraordinary form of Mass that they have licitly attempted to do with the blessings of Mother Church. Shame on them!
So we need to ask ourselves who is deciding what a ‘Catholic in good standing’ is and by what criteria they are making these judgments? Things seem a bit obscure at the moment because we do not know how to recognize those nearing schism from those who are exempt from such charges? I wish someone would publish a new handbook on how we should regard such matters.
All Along the Watchtower 
Understandable confusion, my friend, and you express the frustration well.
On the ‘nuns on the bus’ the Friars, I can say nothing, because the detail is not known to me. That said, I share your puzzlement, but remind myself that there are those in the Church whose job it is to deal with these things, and if we are wise, we hesitate to rush to judge – which doesn’t mean we can’t express our bafflement!
On the wider point, I think more might be said. I don’t see anything in the Catholic Church being ‘changed’ by the actions of the Popes which you mention. I see a nervous conservatism getting itself worked up because it doesn’t like such things and interprets them in a certain way; but I see nothing written or said by the Popes concerned which back up that view. Gestures will, of course, be interpreted in a variety of ways: conservatives will say what they think, ecumaniacs will do likewise, but neither group speak for the Magisterium. When the latter says that all faiths are the same will be the time to worry. Since I think the Church protected from such heresy, I am not sitting around waiting for it to happen.
Yes, there is surely a big problem around the issues of contraception and abortion and remarriage, and you are acute in noting that the latter is made more problematic by the refusal to deal with the former. Only by teaching the proper theology of the body will we make progress here.
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I am truly puzzled my friend and I consider myself at least moderately well educated in the faith. What this is doing to those who are not educated at all will only be seen as this unfolds in the future. I think that this free-for-all has produced the Walter Kaspers and the German Bishops that have been a thorn in the side of the Church . . . noting that this is my opinion only. I think my concern with the Church and the direction this new Pope is on is expressed well in this video that I watched yesterday: http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1610-new-from-remnant-tv-give-us-back-our-catholic-church
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I think some of this comes from what seems to me an over-narrow definition of what ‘Catholic’ means. Looking at the comments on the link, it seems to me that some of the people there are defining the Church as they insist it ought to be. I am far from arguing for adapting to the times, but is it not possible to disagree with Pope Francis without denouncing him as a modernist heretic?
This language, which seems to me imported from America’s ‘culture wars’ has made political discourse toxic and divided; I’d wish it away from our religion.
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I did not read the comments and rarely do. But you cannot say that you do not see a shift taking place. I was given good mentoring throughout the clown mass era and spirit of VII folks. But it was possible to read the Popes and see within them the Catholicism of all time. I cannot make that claim anymore. Perhaps you can . . . and I tried . . . but I am having no success whatever.
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We see the same in our Western society, so it isn’t surprising, I guess. One simply has to have faith that it will wear itself out.
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Oh, I think it will . . . but not in our lifetime. I was thinking about your previous comment about a new narrowness in defining Catholicism which I think I zoomed right past without much thought. I think the problem is exactly the opposite. It is a new wideness of Catholicism that is new. One that has no boundaries of Church teaching or pursuit of the virtues etc. That seems to be too pharisaical and just like your classmate, we are now harboring those who have no understanding of the Catechism and the Church doesn’t care . . . in fact, I think they prefer it. If one holds to the Catholic Catechism, one is disappointed with what we see. Is anyone preaching about the virtues and the sacrifices we must make to be good Christians? Of course the only virtue today is mercy for everyone except for those who read the Catechism and expect that we are operating a hospital to actually fix the sick and not simply to pronounce them fit, even if they aren’t.
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There is much in this with which I agree, but let me test out some thoughts.
‘A new wildness in Catholicism’? Yes, and no, I suspect. There’s always been a wide variety of what has actually been believed, some of it overtly heretical like Catharism, some just skirting there such as some of the more extreme manifestations of Marian devotion. I doubt people in the past were really much better catechised, they were just more deferential and we didn’t have a media to pick it all up.
A Papal court where Alexander VI was living with his mistress and children and where the resources of the church were used to build up the Borgia dynasty was pretty ‘wild’, as, indeed, were the attempts by many Popes to achieve political power. Our modern Popes have different vices, but are they really any the worse as men and pastors?
I think we all have a tendency to imagine a golden age – usually just before us – and to lament the times are going to the dogs – or is that just me?
I don’t, at all, say you’re wrong, just wondering what a longer perspective makes it look like?
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You are right and I think you are getting to the heart of why it is so grave in our time. This is the information age and everything is known or available to be known where it wasn’t in the past. Secrets and scandals were easily covered over . . . not so much today. But Catechesis has taken a hit even though we are, as people, better educated. That seems to be a huge paradox. I can only go by those Catholics of whom I was more intimately familiar, such as my cousins and aunt who were Catholics. They wee well catechized and they practiced their prayers with their parents, they watched Bishop Sheen every week on TV as a family (5 girls – no contraception I would assume). Today I see a relaxed, almost protestant faith, that assumes that they will go to heaven and yet do not know the meaning of the Creed much less the teachings of their faith: which, of course, they vow to believe every year in Church. I would like to know what the longer perspective makes it look like because I can’t see though the muddy water at this point.
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There is something here I’m not quite grasping, but you sense it too. It is to do with the way Western society has changed. I wonder whether, along side the good things you mention, what observers would have said were the bad things? Mumbled, perfunctory Masses, poor knowledge of Scripture, clericalism, authoritarian bishops covering up child abuse because they didn’t believe it really happened? And contrawise, what are the pluses of our own time? People coming freely to God, not through fear of his wrath but because they feel His love?
Each era of the history of the faith has its ups and downs, and those of us of a conservative disposition have enough to depress us in our own times that we often tend not to see anything but the black – God knows, there’s enough of it!
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If we live to see the persecution we will know who is likely to remain. When I think of the Church, I think of the faith of the saints and martyrs and the hope and joy of God that was lively among those who suffered in their daily lives. I doubt you could say they came to God for fear; though they had a good sense of that righteous gift of the Spirit. But they had love, not the love that today’s society thinks is love and what attracts them, but the love “even to their dearth” which many Christians had and do have even today in countries where they are being persecuted. I don’t think the contracepting activist parishioner that comes because they feel welcome will stick around and profess the faith when they are persecuted for their faith. Just a guess. But I don’t think that they really have much faith at all. They just feel welcome and are made to feel good about themselves.
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Agreed, but we ought to remember that saints and martyrs have always been a minority of those who are part of the Church. I suspect that at any point in the past, most Catholics were no better catechised than they are now – we just have less evidence of it. It’s easy to posit a past full of faithful, well-taught Catholics, but from my childhood in a part of the UK where there were many working-class Catholics, I can’t say they were any better, or worse, than we Protestants. The one thing I can remember is that they knew very little of Scripture. This would be the mid 1960s. Perfectly good people, but I can’t speak for their catechesis.
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I am not naive to the falling away of the populace and the lack of time or education that stunted them in their understanding of the faith. That was no fault of their own and reading about the visionaries even from the early 19th century we see why the children were persecuted and reviled by their own class. But those that did attend Mass at their local parishes did the best they could. Many of them saying their rosaries or singing the psalms as they worked the fields. At least that shows a heart that was reaching out beyond their own small, poverty ridden, sphere of life. Perhaps we’ve just grown soft by our prosperity and religious freedom. When you don’t have to sacrifice to believe there isn’t much joy in having it.
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Sorry, I meant the early 20th century.
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In different times there are different things which stunt spiritual growth – and in our own time want of decent education remains one of them – along with the clamour of the media which gives no one a moment for thought!
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True, plus the promise of our capitalist world that the next new invention will make them very happy. When that fails there is a new best thing on its heels. We live for the next slice of bread and the next circus that is offered for our amusement.
Regardless, it is not an excuse for the clergy and the leadership of the Church. We seem to be sitting on our laurels watching all of this happen and watching the dumbing down of our principle values without exerting much voice (except by some few brave souls . . . usually persecuted for it) in order to turn people from having their eyes on themselves to raising them to God. That, at least, is part of what I sense and the only explanation I have for it is the sin of sloth.
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I suspect most of our bishops have always been like that – it is just our lot’s misfortune to be in a time which they lack the stature to surmount.
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Well we do have a history of not letting a good man get in the way of our punishing and abusing him as well; Newman, John of the Cross, Pio etc.
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Alas, you are spot on.
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Sorry Servus, I stopped listening to the video, when the guy declared that Catholics will have accept homosexual marriage in the near future. He added that as Nuns have all but disappeared so to will Priests. He comes across as a far left or right, depending on your point of view, as Bosco is….
There seems to be a great deal of alarmists out there. My feeling is, as was mentioned yesterday by you or C I don’t remember which, that the Church will take its due time to correct any of its failings, much to the dismay of those who see the world collapsing around them.
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That last is of course true. The problem comes in trying to navigate your spirituality without harm to one’s soul during the turbulence. People are falling off the Barque of Peter and others, who remain on board, aren’t even aware they are on the Barque of Peter. How this shakes out in future will be interesting but I can’t sit around be consoled by that as I watch great harm to my own spirituality and that of countless other millions throughout world. It is imperative that we find Christ today in the Church and He seems to be getting pushed out the same door or window that we opened to the world.
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On a more joyful note, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11488383/They-are-going-to-eat-him-nuns-stun-Pope.html
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I especially like the photo with the Pope giving a thumbs up and the guy right behind him to the right is wearing red Micky Mouse ears and a red nose and clown attire. Very much, of the day, isn’t it? You might try to work yourself through the entire video David before you judge the whole of it.
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It’s too loony tunes for me.
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Reality has been that for too long. Buffoonery and foolishness is the bread of the world and we seem to like it. If you don’t . . . then you are looney tunes in the eyes of the world. I guess it depends on the glasses you are wearing.
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The video is too extremist right from the gitgo and therefore loses credibility. I’ve got better prayers to pray.
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Well, as extremist as you thought they were, the US used to export priests now we have to import them: my own diocese has many African and Indian priests. Maybe you don’t have the same problem? Many in the country do.
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Servus, I like reading your posts because you are humble and intelligent and ask good questions. I can’t do justice to the topic but I’d like to say that I was also unable to watch the video as I found the opening statements disingenuous. I agree with all the comments made by David.
When the pope (and please believe me when I say that it has taken me months to adjust to him and still prefer reading material of the previous two popes) gives the thumbs up, in my opinion, he is expressing the joy of the gospel and not his personal joy that a modernest agenda is getting pushed through to the detriment of the faithful (as suggested in the video). It is admittedly a crude way for a pope to behave, I understand and share the concern, but I don’t watch videos that misrepresent the truth as I see it.
In my admittedly limited experience of attending Catholic masses (in several locations) over the past seven years (as a visitor and guest), I have consistently witnessed humble, faithful priests and deeply reverent parishioners (not all, of course, but there is always a core group in each church I have visited). I’ve never seen a priest dressed up as a clown or a dancing priest or liturgical dancers.
I attended one Latin Mass years ago with a high school friend in the ’60’s. It was a Saturday mass for children who attended the local Catholic school. The priest had his back to us, I could hear nothing, and the children and teens talked and giggled throughout the Mass at the woman a few pews ahead of us who had a tissue on her head. I left in a puzzled state of mind and never forgot the three ring circus I had just sat through.
Bible study at Catholic parishes have changed my life for the better in ways that cannot be put into words, or at least I can’t express it because it is in fact sublime.There is a living and deeply felt joy of the faith that I witness and experience each time I enter a Catholic church. Just my two cents.
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And I’m glad for your 2 cents as well, GZ. It is difficult to write or for the folks at the Remnant to talk as if this is an overall, every parish, every priest type problem and I can see how those who have not had the experience might not want to listen to much of what others have experienced to the negative side. But I’m here, aren’t I? I too, have found in the Catholic faith that which I found nowhere else and it is probably why, when I find that many seem to suffer from acedia and confuse jocularity with zeal and joy for the faith, I feel a deep grief and sadness. It is all part of the journey. We take the bad right along with the good and pray that God will draw a greater good from the bad in time.
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I only experience grief and sadness in relation to my own lack of faith, but not about the Church. Popes come, popes go, but Christ is eternal. If I am a fool, then count me as one of the Lord’s fools, but I cling to the foot of the cross, and I have found no better place to do that than in the Catholic Church.
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And you are not one that brings me sadness but joy. It is those who will never hear a clear voice of the faith and those who find it too painful to bare with trials and ultimately separate from the Church. Those outcomes make me sad. The faith brings me zeal and hope.
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The faith brings me zeal and hope.
I know it does, Servus. 🙂
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“Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.” __ Rev. 3:19
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What my comments meant to convey is guarding our hearts against despair (I am not suggesting turning a blind eye to what is going on).
Because I love the Scriptures and appreciate the verse from Rev 3, I will quote for you a favorite passage of mine:
“Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice.
Let your gentleness be known to everyone.
The Lord is near.
Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
Phil 4:4-7
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An excellent verse my friend and the attitude our many saints held onto as well as their unfailing obedience during their trials within and without the Church. I think as we mature in our faith, we realize that it is not joining some idealized home as depicted by the Leave it to Beaver show. We need to put on the Breastplate of Justice and the Helmet of Salvation and be prepared to give our very lives if it is required of us knowing that injustices are to be encountered, within and without the Church and our old enemies, the world the flesh and the devil never sleep.
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That is the first time I’ve heard the Church of the suffering and crucified God compared to the fantasy/idealized world of Leave it to Beaver and will admit it perplexes me, but I’ll let it go. 🙂
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A simple analogy of those who think that the Church is nothing but good times and good fellowship without any battles to be fought. Perhaps I could have used the old song to represent these people: “Everything is Beautiful” even if that is far from what the reality is now or ever has been in the past.
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I meant to add this for your amusement and mine. 🙂
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Yes I get it, really. I cling to faith either way. 🙂
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Good man. 🙂
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I meant to also add that there may be an uptick in enrollments at seminaries, as this article suggests. The Catholic Church is struggling, but it will not end in September. 🙂 http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19223
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That is true. The think that I want to keep my eye on is the orthodoxy of the priests that come from the seminaries. We started seeing that under JPII and BXVI but it is to be determined what will occur under Francis. So it is not only a numbers game it is also important to look at quality as well.
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Yup, I understand that concern too. There is so much richness to the Catholic faith, it will not all be lost, even if it gets packed away in the attic for a little while. 🙂
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True enough. They buried Christ for 3 days too.
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David, good to read more from you lately. Concerning the video that you couldn’t bear to finish watching. Don’t you see the coming storm? 1) Pope Francis preaches about the “Doctors of the Law” being without mercy when we close the doors of the Church to so many people. Think a little bit and answer for yourself what these barriers could be. What about RCIA? An eight month process of learning the faith and coming to grips with ones sins. What about an honest & courageous priest who will tell candidates about mortal sins? What about the oath of belief in all the Church teaches? All are barriers and may be eliminated. 2) The SCOTUS is about to rule that all states must perform same-sex unions. Could it be that the homosexuals will then want to change the teaching of Baptists & Catholics, thus Christianity? 3) A teacher in a New Jersey Catholic high school will probably lose her job for having the audacity to get mad at what Dan Savage had to say to Dr. Ben Carson and post it on her Facebook page. The Diocesan & school authorities say that her post violates Christ’s teaching on inclusivity. So all we can teach or even talk to about our Catholic faith is the choir. The thought or expression of homosexuality as sinful is quickly, very quickly becoming hate speech. I do think the storm is coming. We all need to decide if we will go to jail or not.
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Very good, Steve. But David, thinks this is extremist talk and looney tunes so he will have nothing of any preppie talk about the coming storm.
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Well, since we aren’t the first ole fogies to holler “the sky is falling, the sky is falling,” he may be correct. Although, I don’t think so. If we are looney tunes, there seems to be a ever growing contingent on the internet that we will be living with in the looney bin.
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It’s either that or we will be left fighting with the remnant that remains. The rest will either run, hide their heads in the sand or capitulate to the world. And your right. If prophetic, we know how people treat them. If not, we know that there are always false prophets as well. All one can do is look to the signs of the times and make the best judgment you are able to make.
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David just so you know that there are some statistics that back the claim, I will give them to you here:
In 1970 there were 1,003,670 women religious with perpetual or provisional vows; in 1992 that number was down to 655,031. In 1962, there were 46,189 seminarians in the U.S. By early 1992, this number had plummeted to 6,247.
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hey, at least our beloved CC doesn’t ordain females (;-D
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Really? That’s your only reason for joining the CC? Because it doesn’t ordain women? You need to focus on the majors.
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I joined the CC to fight heretics. I have a rosary in one hand and a blackjack in the other. I bust your skull open with the blackjack then I strangle you with the rosary.
Thank you Mary
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By the way, I simply love the above picture.
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Statement 11 is inherently contradictory. Catholics cannot be “brethren” with non-Christians. You are either in Christ’s family or you’re not.
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Part of the problem many have with the documents as written or translated from VII, my friend. I agree. Without baptism, we have no brotherhood other than if we are speaking of the brotherhood of all of mankind as sons and daughters or Adam.
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Indeed – it seems insane to me and a cause of factionalism where there was little or none before. Granted there were different wings during the 19th century, on which matter C is an expert, but this is insane. Nobody trusts anyone.
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Aye. Reminds me of the title of a very good book, The Sadness of Christ; for He must be very sad about the state of affairs at this point in our history.
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Actually, I believe from memory that taken in context that paragraph comes from a section that was speaking of ecumenism with other Christian groups. But that is the type of thing we see seeded within the documents.
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