Because the issue of communion for divorced people is such a hot one, our discussion of the limits of authority had to include it. As the reaction showed, the limits of the argument are not necessarily readily understood. The response that the ‘Church teaches this and cannot change its mind’ introduces a false syllogism. In the example given in my last post, the Church would not be ‘changing its mind’, it would be developing its disciplinary procedures. Of course, it the Church were to say ‘hey, marriages break up all the time, that’s fine, get yourself remarried and we’ll still welcome you to communion, however often it happens’, then that would be a change; but except in the heightened rhetoric preferred by some, I see no sign that anyone is proposing anything of the sort. Is it really to be argued that the Church should make no attempt to meet its people where they too often find themselves? If we treat the Church as a law-court only, we forget its function as a spiritual hospital. Hospitals do not say ‘are you fit to receive our healing’, they try to heal.
That is not the same as the Church adopting the spirit of the age. The Church must not do that. But it cannot avoid seeing its people influenced by it. It needs to face up to its own inaction and inadequacy. How does it prepare couples for marriage? How does it help couples whose marriages are in trouble? Is it consistently pastoral in this most important of areas, or does it tend to ignore it until too late? How does it deal with those who come to it later in life, who have lived the sort of life which many do nowadays? Is it really to put across the message that it is better to have cohabited with many women than to have married one and failed? After all, in the former case, after repentance, there is no bar to marriage or communion after conversion, in the latter there is. A counsel of prudence here would be to say that no one who might convert to Rome in later life would be wise to get married – just in case it doesn’t work out. If the logic leads in that direction, then something is wrong with it.
I have seen some dismiss the idea of ‘pastoral needs’ with the written equivalent of a snort of derision. This seems an elementary failure of Christian understanding. Above all else, Christianity is pastoral; the rules exist for man, not man for the rules; to think the latter is to fall head-first into Pharisaism. What did God exact from each of us sinners as the price for His Grace? Nothing? Why then do we insist on exacting a price? The one price is the one we pay through love – that of penitence. If the Church tries to find a way to this place, then before crying ‘heresy’, let us first ask by what authority we say such things and by what authority the Church speaks? That, so it seems to me, sets a clear limit to our own authority.
That divorce is a matter of concern in the RCC re salvation or participation in communion is quite silly and misdirected energy and concern.
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Then you do not think of adultery as a grave moral issue. That is your choice but it seemed important enough for Christ to teach on it in particular.
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This also presupposes, Carl, that you do not believe that one should worry about approaching the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar whilst still in sin. Let me just quote this line from the Didache used by early Christians within 50 years of the death of Christ.
“14:1 On the Lord’s day, gather yourselves together and break bread, give thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.”
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In the Anglican Church, we have a communal confession that is said at the start of the service (often after an introductory hymn). It has been a long time since I attended Mass, do Catholics have something similar. As I recall, it involved a quotation/adaptation from the Psalms: “restore us to the joy of Your salvation”.
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Yes Nicholas we say the Confiteor at every Mass together:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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Ah, yes. I hadn’t realise that was said at every Mass. Didn’t the old version involve “blessed Michael, the archangel; the Apostles, and all the Saints”?
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Yes, this is the new dumbed-down version that we say since VII. The old one was much better.
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Yes…the old Latin certainly has more majesty to it – perhaps because it makes us wistful for a time long passed. One can scarce imagine what life must have been like in the days of the great liturgists. On the other hand, ISIS and Attila the Hun – Jerome would recognise much in our own age of “Rome’s fall”.
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Our missing theLatin is more than just wistful: it is more accurate to the meanings and true to the teachings. We lost a lot in the translations that ensued.
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and if you went to a Benedictine school or Monastery after, “the Apostles” we added, “St.Benedict and all the Saints.”
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Here is the Anglican one we used to recite at Holy Trinity:
Lord God,
we have sinned against you;
we have done evil in your sight.
We are sorry and repent.
Have mercy on us according to your love.
Wash away our wrongdoing and cleanse us from our sin.
Renew a right spirit within us
and restore us to the joy of your salvation,
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
I have always thought it apt before worship.
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whilst still in sin
That delineates the difference in opinion precisely. Are people who dress like they are going to the beach(not that I approve) when going to communion also “in sin”. Many believe they are. Would cast these surfers to hell if they had their druthers. Well that’s how silly the “in sin” re divorce seems to me. So that’s why I am dismissive of “in sin” definition by some and don’t consider divorce adultery wherein those acts in marriage are.But more precisely my point is that the RCC can devote volumes re this divorce stuff as they can with every issue that pops up. I suppose defining thing is important as I am sure the replies will assert but seems RCC needs to parse every single molecule in living (like Pharisees ) which thinking Christ rebuked. Seems got more do’s and dont’s than any denomination perhaps even Puritans.
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What didn’t you understand when Christ said that if one remarried when their spouse was still living was living in adultery?
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“If in the Gospel of John, Jesus is the word made flesh, it is safe to say that in the Gospel of Mathew, Jesus is the Torah made human” Professor Luke Timothy Johnson.
Now if one agrees with the above it means we are to live according to the divorce matter as Jesus references the Torah. He is speaking to Jews not the yet to arise Christian. The Torah is the Old Covenant. The New Covenant liberates us from the Torah and the Jewish rules of protocol. Perhaps Jesus is quoted correctly and you use it in your argument but no Christian is bound to the Torah or you must become a Jewish Catholic or a Catholic Jew.
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So the Messiah of the Jewish people was just a kitten’ then. I see. 🙂
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Well perhaps we are all off base if the Messiah is the sole possession of the Jews as they claim. They are still waiting though. Will they be excluded from salvation or saved if they wait to the old lady is dead to remarry? Agree vows are not to be taken lightly or dismissed. But at the wedding the couple vows to have a marriage. If it is ugly and toxic it is not a marriage. It has become the realm of Satan not a blessed relationship as intended. We flee from that alleged marriage as we flee from Satan.
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I have no idea how God is going to judge the Jews or anyone else for that matter. I only know what He taught and what the Church defends. Do you not think that Jesus was speaking in Matthew to his disciples and people who were coming to the realization that this was the Messiah or at the very least a very great prophet?
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Carl, that “silly and misdirected energy and concern” is because of the direct words of Our Lord Jesus Christ on the subject.
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Perhaps you are right but divorce in His time in Judaism was a simple disavowal and dissolution of marriage of wife by Jewish husband making the wife a second or third class human with no simple human equality. Is that what he spoke against? Oppression and disregard of women?
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1) “If we treat the Church as a law-court only, we forget its function as a spiritual hospital. Hospitals do not say ‘are you fit to receive our healing’, they try to heal.”
That is not a good analogy. The Church has an obligation to be both. First the proper person/persons for the healing is the pastor of the Church or the confessor that that the person has chosen. Healing is administered and the first thing the “doctor” says to his patient is “you must remove the cause of your disease.” You cannot remain in grave sin, “adultery”, no more than you can continue to eat and drink toxins and expect that you are then like everyone else.
2) The analogy of these persons to those who have had premarital sex is also flawed. At the moment that the 2nd person comes to the Church, that sin is in the past, presumably. In the first the sin is still present and being lived. Would you say that 2 homosexuals in a living situation should be invited to Communion without first removing themselves from their present homosexual acts? Again, how can you cure those who will not take the medicine. I am sure the defense of this is that one is always a sin and the other, when sincerely entered into, is a vocation and totally licit. But the fact remains that to continue to live in adultery is not curing anything. To find out that it was a bad diagnosis (that the first marriage was null sacramentally) is to take away the presumption that the person is living in adultery. It is the job of the diagnostician (the juridical tribunal) and not the physician (the care giver) to determine if the obvious might not be so obvious and that there are other mitigating circumstances that made the diagnosis bogus.
3) The juridical action of the Church is to try to make allowances for making vows while not a Catholic. But whether a Catholic or a non-Catholic, we respect and honor a vow and commitment that is made before God and which was made in full understanding of what they are committing to. We cannot simply decide that only Catholics have to abide by vows made before God as their witness. We are arguing all the time on this blog that we are all, by our Baptism, in some relationship to the one Church. We accept the truths of their denominations as we accept the truths of a proper vow before God. Should we chuck it all in the waste can? Should we accept nothing of what people hold as sacred – when they do hold it sacred?
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The point I was making is that it would actively pay someone not to get married because, if, later, they decided to become a Catholic, they could then either regularise their current arrangement by marrying, or, if they had lived with other people, those arrangements would not count against getting married again. Any Law which makes sin a better option than marrying and making a mistake, seems to me liable to produce perverse results.
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Both are committing sin if they regard breaking a vow a nothing.
I see it as very similar to the immigration problem. I prefer that an immigrant come through the legal channels and is screened for disease, mental stability and criminal backgrounds: learn the language,, recite a pledge of allegiance and promise before God that they will uphold the Constitution of the United States.
I see your position, as not too different than Obama’s. It seems to say, that no matter how you enter, we have no right to look into your background and who you were is of no concern of ours. What what done on the other side of the boundary is not our business. We then will offer you all the benefits that being a citizen gives you: welfare, free healthcare, free tuition and you can vote. That you were a criminal or you are sick mentally or physically is no hindrance. 🙂 Or have I hit below the belt, so to speak. 🙂
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Not at all, but I return to the main point, which is that the rules were drawn up when all marriages were Catholic, and that is not now the case. If you never go to church and never get married, but get religion later in life, you’re fine. You confess, you get married and there are no canon law problems. If you believe, get marry, but it fails, and then you come into the Church, you have huge problems. It follows that the sensible advice to anyone who might one day become a Catholics would be, live in sin, if you get religion later, it makes life so much easier. That is, surely, the obvious line for anyone not a Catholic to follow?
On the immigration issue, all one can say that is if the Native Americans had thought of immigration control, there’d be more of them and more space on the north American continent!
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Sounds like you are dumbing down the Church to match this dumbed down society.
You cannot say that the Church did not have conversions from every sort of religion all through its 2000 year history, C. We converted entire countries.
As for immigration: we won, they lost and we got the spoils. But you know the point I’m making. 🙂
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I’m not sure that in half a century we’ll be able to tell who the ‘we’ who ‘won’ are, and the ‘they’ who lost.
I don’t think it is ‘dumbing down’ to adapt teachings to the needs of the people. When the rules were drawn up they were not meant for the circumstances we now have. Not to adapt the rules to the circumstances they have to meet seems unwise.
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If the ‘needs’ of the people is to remain in mortal sin and desecrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar then I would say that adapting to them is wrong and is dumbing down the faith. We are the last bastion on earth that actually puts some value on a vow made to God and one of the last that regards marriage as a permanent institution that we enter into.
You are right about the immigration situation in the U.S. and it won’t take that long. They will be the majority before long and I doubt English will be the primary language – it’ll be a second language for some and eventually phased out for Spanish.
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A set of rules designed for Catholics and Catholic marriages isn’t fit for purpose when so many ‘marriages’ are not Catholic. We were freely forgiven after repentance, why do we deny that to others? What was it God demanded we did before a tribunal before we were forgiven enough to be fit for Communion?
If we think about it in this way, it is surely not ‘dumbing down’ but thinking with the mind of Christ?
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Because we were not continuing in our sins as they are who remain in adultery. And as I said, this argument of yours about ‘designed for Catholics’ is specious, I think. We have had hordes of Catholic converts from every land and our missionaries did marvelous work at bringing many into the Church. This is not something new: our relaxed view of the sin is what is new.
So I cannot think about that way because I don’t accept the premise. Thinking with the mind of Christ is to acknowledge the sin as Christ made clear and to abide by the Church’s rules, as She is the safeguard, with the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and keeper of such things. This is morality for crying out loud. The Church has an obligation to teach it – even though it has basically stopped teaching in other areas of morality which is also wrong. It is also the safeguard of keeping the Sacraments from being defiled and desecrated. Why is that being a Pharisee? If so, then the Holy Spirit has been a Pharisee within the Church for 2000 years.
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It is being a Pharisee because it is laying a heavier yoke on the people than Christ laid on other sinners. If a murderer can receive pardon through confession and repentance, why insist that one who married, as a non-Catholic, divorced as a non-Catholic and remarried as a non-Catholic, has to go through a much more oppressive process? It not only makes no sense, it makes a nonsense of the Grace we have all received. Those with a relaxed view of sin will simply not marry and, should they ‘get religion’, marry. Best to do as Augustine did – have a bastard child with a concubine – is this really the example we want the masses to follow?
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To go and sin no more is a heavy yoke if you do not love Christ. It is only lessened by the love of God and makes all things bearable. It is not laying any yoke that Christ did not mandate Himself and the Holy Spirit confirmed through the Church.
If the murderer is not going to stop murdering his confession is useless. As for the oppressiveness of this: I think you are making a mountain of a molehill. Do you realize how many people have gone through the annulment process these past 50 years? A bunch.
You know better that your last is not what I or the Church has ever wanted. What is desired is to amend one’s life and surrender to Divine Providence which means to bear with any obstacle that comes your way for love of Christ. Christ suffered much more than any wannabe convert.
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The murderer can stop murdering, but his victim is still dead, the family still grieving, but the Grace of God pardons the murderer through the Church and the process of Reconciliation. Yet, for the sin of marrying whilst ignorant of the Catholic Church and its teaching, one cannot be forgiven through Reconciliation and amendment of life. The fact that a whole bunch of people have been through the annulment process suggests that it is in many places formulaic, so why not find a less expensive and oppressive way of managing the reconciliation process here? If we are prepared to repent and amend our lives, what does a legal process add that Grace lacks? We need to remember it is by Grace we are all redeemed, surely? Why add an extra yoke and single out one sin above all others?
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It’s not an extra yoke. It’s a cross some bear and others do not. Some find the process fine – you found it too hard, apparently,, and not fair or merciful. As to the the process becoming formulaic. Indeed that was the screams of faithful Catholics here. If you want to see the stats for 2007 alone you can see in this article the U.S. and the stats for the world. We grant them in huge proportions. That, in my mind needs to be rectified. I think we have bent ourselves over backwards to help these folks and it is like with all other liberal minded folks never enough: whey do I have to do it at all is their cry and I guess you agree.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/470/annulment_nation.aspx
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Well, we either trust the Church and the process, in which case it is clear that most cases have merit, or we don’t. If we do and they do, why not find a less clunky method?
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There is not one. Your method is a sham and preaches to the world that vows mean nothing to us – just like they think.
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Not at all. My method says Grace is all. The current method gives the impression it can be bought and sold at a tribunal.
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I’d like to hear of any being bought and sold for that would be scandalous. However, Grace is not the point. Grace does gives us the sacraments and the ability to do the will of God even when our minds and hearts want to do something else. The tribunal is not supposed to be a dispenser of grace. It is merely there to uphold the grace-given sacraments and make sure that they are valid and licit. You can’t conflate Grace with the duty of the Church to protect Her sacraments.
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Do you really think the various Kennedy annulments were nothing to do with their wealth and influence?
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I found a good article on that once which I wish I had saved. It seems that the validity issues there had a cascading effect. Once one was invalidated the others fell as well. But aside from that; yes, i personally believe that they were the poorest excuses of Catholics and that simony provided the help that they needed whenever they needed it. Shameful and scandalous and some prelates are either wringing their hands in hell right now or suffering a long stay in purgatory.
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But how can a church without valid sacraments conduct a sacramental marriage?
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It’s the vows my friend and the ministers who make them (the bride and groom).
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Indeed – but is it a sacrament of the Catholic Church?
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Assumed to be valid until prove otherwise.
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And find, as usual, that Protestants don’t have a Catholic understanding of marriage.
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As I just said – we know that. But that is not a valid reason for saying that the marriage wasn’t sacramental.
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And that is where we strain at a gnat whilst devouring Kennedy camels. And we wonder why people think the Church hypocritical?
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It always has been this way C. It didn’t change last night.
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Which is no reason the church should not look again and come up with something fit for purpose – which it will.
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Smile. I see we are going round and round and I am probably keeping you up as well. Just suffice to say that I side with the 5 Cardinals and the African bishops on this one and you side with Kasper and the German cabal of theologians. I think we are at an impasse. 🙂
Enjoyed the argument though I do wish I could convince you to change your position. 🙂
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I agree, my friend – but a good example of how to disagree like gentlemen 😊
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I always enjoy our arguments as you are certainly a worthy opponent. 🙂
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A sentiment which I heartily reciprocate ☺️
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BTW, notice that Africa has the lowest number of annulments in the world and yet leads the world in conversions to the Catholic Faith. I think that speaks volumes as to the efficacy of making things easier for the divorced and remarried.
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I think you’ll find it has a low number of divorces too.
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Yes, I think that is true as well. From the 4 or 5 African priests that I have had contact with, they were all extremely orthodox men and I can only surmise from that the people in Africa are very orthodox as well. They are like the Catholic Church used to be: manly, full of vigor, with fortitude, courage, perseverance and love. We have made our Western Europan ideal of Church too effeminate and effete in its look and message of late. We need to regain a Church that values suffering and will power and a spirit to resist becoming a fun, cute religion of cuddly kittens.
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“we have no right to look into your background and who you were is of no concern of ours”
Exactly the thinking of the Puritans who felt they had that right and who had a check list of investigative protocol to see who was worthy of congregation membership and worthiness to receive communion. Are you becoming a 17th Century Calvinist Protestant now?
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Citizens in this country are subject to more scrutiny when they apply for a job; urine testing, calling all your former bosses, require a physical, on and on. But you come over the fence and you simply stick your hand out and we give you a basket of goodies for breaking the law whilst they bring with them tuberculosis, scabies and and host of other diseases. Violent criminals have been found among the lot. You want them coming to America? If you agree with Obama on this and Marxists like Soros who believe in Open Borders. you are giving the country away and any legacy you might have hoped to preserve for your kids.
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Well in such a case lying at one’s vows is also a sin. So what is the difference?
This is like the difference between the way we used to do immigration and how we do it now. Before we wanted to know if you are a criminal, have a disease or mentally ill and if not then you need to learn our constitution and pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic. Now, it doesn’t matter what you did in the past, whether you are sick mentally or physically and you don’t need pledge anything. Just come on in and get your welfare, your healthcare, and your free tuition. You can vote and you can get all the privileges of a citizen for nothing. No sacrifice required.
I always look a bit askance at people who want something for nothing. If it doesn’t require some sacrifice on the part of the individual it probably isn’t very valuable.
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It would be interesting to read case studies (anonymised, of course) by pastors from Catholic and other churches who have ministered to divorced and separated people. The scars left by such heartache must surely grieve the Lord. “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
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C, what I see from all of this Kasper matter is to end all barriers of entry into the Church so the Eucharist can be that healing medicine to all. No RCIA, no oath to believe what the Church teaches, no confession, no need to change one thing. All of this will come in time as one becomes closer to Our Lord. As you know all of this is now handled up front or they decide not to join us. Now how long will that homosexual couple come to Mass before accepting the teachings of the Church? Who will decide? And then, what happens when that couple decides they don’t have to believe what the Church teaches & they see no reason to change anything?
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Isn’t that throwing out the baby with the bath-water? I am aware of quite a few people in my own church who don’t believe that Jesus is actually God, but they consider themselves good Catholics!
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If your priest won’t tell them that they are not, I certainly hope that you did. 🙂
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Also, where is the ‘baby’ in this? Are they not an infection that causes more harm to the rest of the Body; wolves in sheeps-clothing are not sheep and they are certainly not babies.
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I agree – our PP knows this and does nothing. This, I guess, is part of my point. If you don’t really believe but keep to the letter of the law (which these people do – they don’t say in public what they are happy to say in private) then the law court lets you get on ‘in good standing’/ If you actually believe and follow the rules, your life gets made incredibly difficult if you were married before, even if it was in a church the Church does not recognise as a Church. Net result is that I know five men who are Orthodox, because the OC exercised an economia, and a dozen on so Catholics who actually believe nothing much. A hollowed out Church is the result. the five men I know are diligent Christians, two of whom turned their lives around with God’s help, but found the attitude of the Church to their (long ago dead) marriages impossible.
One might say that’s fine, but one cannot then wonder that the Church seems hollowed out – those who don’t care can say anything and stay in because the Law Court finds nothing against them.
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Of course one is OK with the Church authorities if they keep their sins and their heresies private. So what? They are not alright with God and they will suffer for their deception.
The Church is hollowed out because we keep trying to be like everyone else in the world. We used to have a culture that said to the world and other Christians that we stand for something and we actually mean it. If your friends had not the same sacrificial attitude that you or Steve had when you went through this procedure, I don’t know that the Church lost a thing. I wish we could root out the rest who are not willing to give us something to gain heaven and eternal beatitude.
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I think if we offer incentives to those who are Pharisees and disincentives to those who are not, we end up as we are ending up. Not everyone is willing to go through the sort of pretty intrusive process I went through. It actually did real damage to my original family, some to my current marriage, and left a pretty nasty taste. If asked, as I am, I can only say to others in my position that they need to go into it with their eyes open and to be prepared for a lengthy and intrusive process, during which time they will be deprived of the Sacrament which helps us bear so much.
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So does the hope of receiving it at the end of the procedure. 🙂
Whether it’s marriage or many other sins that we bear when we come to the Church, everybody, if they are convinced that this is the The Way will give up a lot. Contraception is one of the toughest ones for converts from the other Christian denominations. I have no pity for those who do not wish to give it up; then don’t join. That is the teaching, period. If you are not willing to do whatever it takes to gain the Pearl of Great Price then get a pearl of lesser price that you can afford.
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I think there is a difference between the other things you mention and marriage. Of course, as a Catholic, one follows the teaching of the Church (although we both know many don’t, and there is a ‘don’t ask/don’t tell’ culture). But if, before one was a Catholic, one contracted a marriage which broke down, and another marriage which didn’t, to put the latter at risk (and in my own case that was precisely what happened) seems rather like adding a yoke which those who apply it never bear themselves. In practice, annulments usually go through, and it seems to me there has to be a better way of managing this than the current clunky one.
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Many do bear it C. I have seen a number of returning Catholics going through this process.
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Many do, and in many cases it is formulaic. In others it is not and it is burdensome. That, by itself, cries for reform of the process.
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Why? There are theological reasons that must be addressed. Some are easy to identify and others more remote. Some are not able to fixed at all. Not everyone gets an annulment from the Church. You are taking your best shot.
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We do not apply ‘theological reasons’ to other sins. Is it by Grace or by the Law we are redeemed of our sins?
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We are not applying theological reasons to sin C. You know that well. We are looking at the form and validity of a sacrament and whether the ministers (the couple) met the criteria to be considered licit form. That is what is theological. The sin, is confirmed, if the first marriage is considered valid and licit and if not no sin is present and there is nothing to confess anyway.
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How a ‘sacrament’ can be valid when performed in an ecclesial community the Church does not recognise as having the sacraments, is a great mystery. I think you are missing the damage caused to families by the annulment process. Those who are not Catholics often resent being told their marriage was no marriage. In my own case it caused an irretrievable breakdown in a relationship which had been amicable for more than a decade and a half after our divorce. My children were not best pleased either. There seemed in all of that a kind of selfishness. It put me ‘right’ but put a lot of people I love a distance from me. Was it worth it – well I shall find out one day.
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It may have gone better for them if you had given them some of the arguments I have given you. But if you agreed with them then they will not see anything else but what they see with their non-Catholic eyes.
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I did – their view was it confirmed their opinion that the Catholic Church was a Pharisaical Church which refused to acknowledge the power of Grace. The PP also explained. All to zero avail.
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Another day, another time, perhaps another family would have seen it as a faith with principle. A symptom of our modern age, I’m afraid.
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Not at all. My children are all devout Christians who feel the force of Grace and who shook their heads sadly at a legal process which said they were not the product of a real marriage – which was how they and their mother see it. My eldest simply said he was saved by Grace and had his low opinion of the Church confirmed. All in all, a process which damaged much I love. I underwent it because it was necessary, but anyone telling me it is the best method possible is saying the Church cannot improve its methods; I have more faith in it than that.
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And I have more faith in the Church that it is doing the only thing that is possible at the moment to protect the validity of taking vows,, the validity of marriage, and the sanctity of the Eucharist.
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But I return the my main point, which is the absurdity of saying a body not recognised as a Church can consecrate a Catholic marriage. Either a Church has the power to confer valid sacraments or it doesn’t.
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The Church doesn’t consecrate it, God does by way of the vows between 2 baptized individuals.
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Indeed – but is that how Protestants see it? No, so why insist they must have thought that? Most tribunals find the obvious – Protestants don’t hold that, ergo the marriage isn’t valid.
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Since when did we start caring about how non-catholics see our teachings? Is that the yardstick we should use? We do not accept marriage from a Mormon because we do not accept their form of Baptism. There are reasons that the Catholic Church has for everything that it has done. And that is not what the tribunals find. They know that the Protestants don’t hold that but it does not preclude that their marriages are deficient until the Baptismal records are known and the mindset of both ministers are known. That is what matters.
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Since we started accepting converts. The ridiculousness of assuming non-Catholics think as we do is obvious, so why insist that, when contracting a non-Catholic marriage, they must have thought they were contra ting a Catholic one until a tribunal proves the obvious – that they were contracting a Protestant one.
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There is no such thing as Catholic or Protestant marriage. There is only a marriage where 2 baptized people knowingly make vows or not. If they do that it is a marriage which is Sacramental. I would vouchsafe that my parents marriage and my brother’s marriage were sacramental in the Catholic understanding of what is involved in making marriage a sacrament.
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Perhaps, but as no tribunal had pronounced, we can’t be sure. And, of course, is we take the more traditional view of what no salvation except in the Catholic church means, that would avail naught for salvation. But we don’t, so why insist that all Protestants agree with Catholic teaching unless they prove otherwise? More camels gone down and gnats strained at?
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No need for a pronouncement unless they decide to become Catholic and have remarried while a previous spouse is still living. We assume their Baptism’s are valid as well if the proper form and matter is used. Would you also revoke their one tie to the Catholic Faith as well. We can’t. These Sacraments are independent of the Church but not independent of Christ and His commands. We don’t care if Protestants believe as we do or not. why would we care? It is independent of their separation and is a direct sacrament that Christ prescribed, Baptism and Marriage are the only 2 sacraments, as you know, that we share and do not depend on the validity of a ministerial, apostolic priesthood.
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I prefer the orthodox view which is to rebaptise – which is more logical and humane – like their view on marriage.
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Maybe you still belong to the Orthodox Church in heart and spirit? 🙂
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Perhaps 😊
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Too late C. Best fall in step. 🙂
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Well, it may be the Church will fall in step instead 😄
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There you go sounding like the nuns on the bus again. 🙂
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The catholic church teaches things and we are duty bound to adhere to them. Like divorce and homosexuality.
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Some idiot has spilled soda or something onto this keyboard. it just wont work.
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our beloved catholic church has two sets of books. One is teaching for the man in the pews…and the other book is for the clergy. The man in the pews does what we say. the clergy does what they want. You see, our clergy are above the law because they are little Christs. We teach against homosexuality while most of our holymen are homosexuals. We catholics don’t care. We actually love it. It shows how godly the CC is. The more godly we are, the more satan attacks us.
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So, to summarize, the Roman Catholic Church believes, like my Lutheran Church that we are saved by God’s Grace, or so it says:
“In November 1999, the Lutheran World Federation and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity issued the “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” that said, “By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works”
Unless, of course, you’ve been divorced, in which case we will subject you to a tribunal, that thinks it can supersede God, Himself, and in the course of this we will damage everybody involved, and see how many people we can manage to drive away from our church. But, of course, if you simply fornicated with fifty people but didn’t marry them, all you have to do is confess your sins.
That’s about as a perverse double standard as I’ve ever seen.
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To my knowledge NEO, I though that you were not remarried??? Maybe I’m wrong. So there is no problem for you at all. For the answers to the last you can go over the arguments that C and I just had . . . which were epic. We both enjoyed the combat I think. 🙂
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I still have hopes of being, not that it matters, the disrespect that Rome brings on itself here means I would never consider it anyway. Too bad, the last five or so women i dated were Catholic. but I would never consider putting them through that ordeal. They are far too good for that mistreatment.
Those arguments are what i just summarized, as fairly as i could.
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Not everybody has the same experience as C. And tens of thousands go through the process every year in the US. It has not brought disrespect but respect for the fact that vows mean something.
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Nonsense, if they didn’t know vows means something, this damaging process isn’t going to reveal that truth.
We are saved by Grace, not tribunals. Period, full stop.
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What has this possibly got to do with saved by Grace I’d like to know. How is this damaging is another one that I haven’t run into in all the annulments that went through my RCIA. The delays were the biggest problem and that is usually because the separated spouse is not cooperating though, an impediment, it does not preclude that a favorable finding might still be made. You’d be surprised how the information that is provided can give them very good and reasonable certainty in the cases. You wouldn’t know because you have never filled out the forms and have no idea what is on them.
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Well let’s see: In the last two days we have seen that it damaged C, his current wife (who is a very lovely lady) his former wife who ended up estranged from him completely, and forever, it essentially de-legitimised his sons, who I know are better Christians than i, at least, am. You have damaged both jess and I and driven us forever from Rome.
I’m so happy that sometimes it doesn’t do so much damage. that’s so good to hear, maybe they only damage three or four, or so, huh?
if you can’t see where God’s Grace enters into this conversation, I feel very sorry for you.
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How this damaged Jess and you is fascinating as Jess did not go through the process and you would not have to. Also, in the process C suggests and I presume you agree with, we would not accept your baptism nor your marriage even if you had been married faithfully to the same women for 50 years. I can see the screams now from my RCIA classes that all of them will have to be re-baptized and re-married in the Catholic Church. And what if the spouse was not converting? What then, if she refuses? Is this a better system than what we have in place. God forbid that we ever created so much unneeded pastoral burdens on those entering the Church. Most don’t have marriage problems to begin with. The others usually have no problems other than a log jam from too many cases at one time. That could be remedied with the hiring of more Canon lawyers. Again, did you read the entire argument between C and myself. I would hope that you might understand better why we do what we do. 🙂
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Amongst other thing, without going too far into things that I know in confidence about Jess, This is a lot of the reason she wasn’t posting much last year, and i think part of the reason her engagement broke up. I know it was still bothering her a lot last summer, as the skies darkened and the seas rose. and that is what you did to the most Godly person I have ever known, whom you claim to be your friend.
if you choose not to recognize Anglican and Lutheran sacraments well, that’s your choice, if I recall Baptists don’t. Let ’em scream, if they want to be Catholics they’ll do it.
So what, people like jess are merely collateral damage and don’t matter? Nice.
it’s sad and disheartening to see someone who professes to be a Christian put a church, any church, above God. Maybe your canon lawyers would do well to read the masthead of this blog, instead of thinking they are so bloody smart.
Sometimes we forget, i think, we are not arguing in a vacuum here, there are many whop read us, that we never know, do you really want them to believe what you have stated about your church, because you make out to be a church where mercy is not to be found. Christ did not tell the woman at the well, Go, and sin no more, i will cast the first stone but we will only stone you unconscious, not to death, or did he in your Bible.
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In the first place how did I do this to Jess? And yes, I do claim that she is my friend. How has this become a personal attack of something that I did to Jess I’d like to know?
You say let ’em scream. As long as it isn’t you or Jess, I guess? Nice.
The Church isn’t above God and I am not doing that at all. You do not seem to understand the arguments made at all.
The Canon lawyers are quite often laymen with degrees that are hired to do the research into Canon law. Why you need to attack them is beyond me. You seem to have a lot of personal hatred for people who are just doing what they were hired to do. And also your tone with me seems to be more of the same. I’m only telling you what the Catholic Church does and how it thinks about the Sacraments.
No, The woman at the well was told that none of her husbands were her husband. She caught the meaning.
It seems as though you outside of the Catholic faith are angry that we regard your baptisms and marriages much higher than you do yourself. Sorry about that. But that is because they didn’t require an apostolic, ministerial priesthood to be valid and licit. That is our belief and it is from our understanding of Scripture and the early Church as well.
Don’t shoot the messenger. I think our view of your sacraments (even if you do not call them sacraments) is merciful to most and a pain in the butt for others. But if the Pearl of Great Price is not worth a little pain and suffering why would you want to join the Church anyway?
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if you can’t see how, well, I guess it’ll have to be so, unless and until she can explain it herself, because she trusts me not to put her private life on display, and I honor that trust.
So you say, ad nauseum. but in truth this round barn has no corners, and we’re not accomplishing anything, and it’s getting too personal besides.
True to a point, we consider marriage a Sacramental Rite, for reasons that are valid enough. it doesn’t make our view of it any less holy than yours.
Merciful to most just doesn’t cut it. we are called to be merciful to all, even the least amongst us, if you’re not, you have work to do.
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I can’t see how as I tried to answer her questions when she asked them on line and even spoke to her via email about it. I offered the assistance of my wife for any questions she might have and she turned that down. So how did this do harm by giving her information? I don’t need any personal information and I too would never betray her trust. You are no the only one that has been asked not to speak of things and kept that promise. So how did I, do something to Jess? That is important to me to know . You can send me an email. I don’t care or call me as I think you have my phone number, or did.
I agree, we might just leave things be. I think we are talking past one another.
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Agree with NEO
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But of course you would. 🙂 But then you have no intention of becoming Catholic so what difference would it make? There are reasons which are reasonable and objections which are answerable. That’s all I can tell you. 🙂
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Carl’s entitled to have an opinion, he’s as Christian as either of us. 🙂
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Of course he can chime in. And he did. 🙂
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On the other hand my first teaching job was at St James School in North Miami and I took my 7th graders to Mass every Friday. The priest gave me them little round things too.
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Oh, marbles? Were they cat’s eyes?
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Tee hee. Naw, aggies.
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I liked the steelies best. They never broke.
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Carl, that last sentence sounds like you have been taking special lessons from Bosco. That puts you in some really great company.
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Thanks, Carl.
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