Chalcedon’s excellent piece on the dangers of one’s own unguided interpretation of Scripture takes its title from an exchange between Jesus and the religious authorities in the Temple in Jerusalem. He had just cleared the Court of the Gentiles of money changers and those who sold sacrificial animals – we might call them “worship profiteers.” The religious establishment of the day had tolerated such behaviour, and may have in fact been implicated – it may be that some families were “taking a cut” of the profits. Jesus represented a challenge to their practices, their authority, and their whole way of thinking. He didn’t even come from the circle of high priestly families – he was a Judahite, not of the Aaronide lines.
So, they come and ask Him by what authority He clears the Temple Courts. But He doesn’t play their game. Instead of giving them a direct answer, He asks them a double-bind question: “John’s baptism – did it come from Heaven or from mankind?” Now they’re stuck. Reasoning among themselves, they consider the implications of either answer to that question. If they affirm that it came from Heaven, then they think Jesus will ask why they didn’t believe John – why weren’t they baptised for repentance. On the other hand, if they say that it was a purely human affair and not inspired at all, then the people will stone them because the people believe that John was a prophet sent to them by God.
So the religious leaders take the coward’s way out: “We don’t know.”
Jesus replies to them, “Then neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
This event has a number of lessons to teach us. It reveals that our life hinges on faith and our response to Jesus, God’s “Messenger of the Covenant” as Malachi calls Him. The religious establishment were hard-hearted and proud: they weren’t going to bend the knee in repentance with John, so they certainly weren’t going to bend the knee in obeisance to Jesus.
Human leadership is a place of intensity. When you make a mistake, if you don’t admit it, the people will hate you. If you do admit your error, you have no guarantee that the people will forgive you. You may lose all your power and authority – a leader without followers is no leader. All the good you did may perish with you, and when you cry out with a true message, no one will listen to you – and they too will perish.
“Much is required of the man to whom much has been entrusted.” This is one of Jesus’ most memorable precepts and it was passed on by the Apostles to the Church: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” (Jas. 3:1, NASB) Those who give sermons, those who write Christian books, those who lead Bible studies, those who make proclamations of doctrine – all such are responsible for the influence they have had on God’s people – ” as he thinks within himself, so he is” (Prov. 23:7, NASB).
Human leadership is ordained by God, but is also subject to God. He is Melech haOlam (King of Eternity). The Lord raises up and the Lord pulls down – He is sovereign. He turns the darkness to light and the light to darkness. Who has known His mind to give Him counsel?
Chalcedon’s choice of title taps into this problem. If it is a problem for Protestants to “be their own popes”, it is also dangerous for those who lead the Catholic Church. Of them much is required by God, and if any among them should find himself in the same position as the men challenging Jesus in the Temple Courts, he must repent and face the same risks.
Again we come back to faith and perception. This is where Bosco comes in. Bosco is known for quoting Jn. 10:26-27: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (KJV). Christ has appointed for the Church elders, overseers, pastors, teachers, deacons, prophets, administrators etc. These carry on His teaching and ministry just as the Apostles did. However, the fact that someone bears a title does not mean that they truly minister in the spirit of the Christ. This is why Christ warns us about false prophets (vide the Sermon on the Mount and the Olivet Discourse). Earlier in Jn. 10, Jesus says of His flock, “a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers” (KJV). This is the position that Protestants find themselves in regarding the Catholic Church as an institution (but not its individual members and teachers). There is plenty in her doctrines and practices that we can agree with, but there are elements that are foreign to us, no matter how well explained, and these cause us to withdraw from “strangers”.
That is why this matter of “authority” for interpreting the Bible is more complex than first sight would reveal: it involves heart and our perceptions. It is especially difficult for people with trust issues: “once bitten, twice shy.” I’m not one of those Christians who denies the teaching authority of the Church altogether – that would clearly contradict Scripture – but I do worry when the Church is emphasised over the Holy Spirit. Such thoughts seem to neglect what Jesus said of Him in Jn. 16:13 and overlook the fact that He can speak to us directly, as in Acts 13:2. We have to remember that it is possible for God’s people to resist His Spirit (cf. Acts 7:51). Now that we are willing to see the risk of Christians becoming like Pharisees we really ought to be willing to see the risk of resisting the Holy Spirit – after all, Paul tells the Church “do not quench the Spirit” and “do not grieve the Spirit”.
Chalcedon rightly asks, “But what to do if one’s own reading and the commentaries do not quite square up?” He concludes, “That is where the authority of the Church is invaluable.” But I find myself asking, “Which Church?” As a non-denominational Christian (admittedly under strong Protestant influence), I don’t see the Catholic Church as the one true Church founded by Christ with the others as “pretenders”, “appendages”, “heretics”, “schismatics”, “conventicles” or whatever terminology you want to apply to the bloody carnage. To me this kind of mentality dismembers the Body of Christ and is in direct disobedience to the Apostle Paul’s instruction to the Christians of Corinth.
Now it could be that I’m a high priest refusing to accept John’s baptism, but equally it could be that I’m a sheep who won’t follow a stranger (or something in between?). The point is, it is not possible to answer this question without the eye of faith.
This is why I like the fact that Lutherans refer to Martin Luther as the Reverend Doctor. The use of this title puts Luther on the same plane as the Doctor Angelicus, Thomas Aquinas. And that is where Luther should be. Now, some will challenge that Luther committed sins and had some very unsavoury writings. Agreed, as a Zionist I oppose the anti-Semitic strain that developed over Luther’s life. But which of us is without sin? King David himself, a prophet who beheld the Son of God before the Incarnation (Psalm 110), was an adulterer and subject to anger. Pobody’s nerfect.
The claim that Luther is on the same plane as Thomas Aquinas makes at least two implicit assertions:
A) Luther should be treated as an important teacher of the Church: he is not some gangrenous limb that was amputated the same as Arius.
B) Luther should be treated the same as any Father, Doctor, or Bishop: a guide in the tradition of the Church, but not infallible by any stretch of the imagination – he would be the first to affirm his own fallibility.
This question of reading the Bible, then, is not simply about hermeneutics, exegesis, and historical context – important as those things are. If Protestants have overemphasised those things: nostra culpa. This is in fact a question of our relationship with the Holy Spirit both as individuals and as a body. It is also a question of ecclesiology. My contention is that God’s ministers and teachers are found across the denominations. Listening to Doctor Luther should not be separated from listening to Augustine – he is in a sense a “Pre-Tridentine Father”.
Something to think about.
Now that I am a catholic, I don’t believe the bible anymore. I believe what the magisterium says. it says there are 2 Rocks the church is built on.
Excuse me, my Mary statue needs a tissue.
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I just spilled coffee all over my desk reading this comment!
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I hope you mean figuratively. Literally would be quite the mess.
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that’s rite my separated brethren Jim. the catholic church is built on two Rocks, hey, if you don’t belive me, just ask good brother Servus.
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I think he was commenting on your claim to no longer believe the Bible. Believe the Catholic Church not instead of the Bible but because of the Bible and we will see you in Heaven.
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Why are you defending my beloved catholic church? You are a horse trading female bishop lovin Anglican
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How many times do I have to explain to you–I am a member of the Anglican Church in America (ACA). We abide by the Affirmation of St. Louis which affirms that holy orders are MALE in nature and because of this, there can be no female priest or bishop or even a female deacon! There can be female deaconesses but this is a lay position.
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You are not a Catholic because Catholics believe the Bible.
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The council of Toulouse forbids us to read the bible. So there.
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no. it forbids laity who have been poorly instructed in the faith from reading the bible. and it does not say that the catholic church does not believe in the bible either so sorry.
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OK, so we should put a stamp on the hands of people who have been poorly instructed. Those people cannot own bibles.
Oh thank you Mary.
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actually, that might not be too bad.
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Nicholas, I don’t think that you can have it both ways. By that, I mean that we all agree that the Holy Spirit blows where It will and that Christ’s sheep know His voice. But how then, can those who have received the Holy Spirit, as they claim, not recognize Christ’s voice unless the Holy Spirit is, for some reason, not moving them to recognize Christ’s voice . . . which would leave the Holy Trinity at odds within Itself. How God works with those who have left the flock and yet remain His sheep is a mystery that we accept on His Word and in which there lies great danger for many souls who wish to make the claim. That to me, is C’s ultimate unasked question: how can you rely on your own assurance that you are within the fold? I couldn’t for the life of me, as a Protestant, get a good answer as to what Protestant Church would provide that assurance. The only answer for me was to join the Church Christ founded on Peter. In that way, I can humbly submit my own conclusions, to abide with and within the flock that Christ gave to this world for an extension of His reign on Earth; a sure guide to salvation if I do all that it says to do – recognizing that the human failings are not the teachings; for it is only in the areas of faith and morality that the assurance of the Holy Spirit has been given the Church. I just don’t know how to humanly get past Matthew 16 and John 6 and remain outside the Catholic Church. But I am sure you already know that is how we Catholics think and also sure that you and all our separated brethren here do their best to resolve such issues and have made hard decisions as to how they are to regard the above scriptures. I pray everyone is right in their assurance of having the Holy Spirit given to them and that this Spirit will reliably act as their Divine Guide.
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ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE – 1229 A.D.
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.
Thank you Mary. I have burned my bibles and now only read catholic books. may the true one holy universal church destroy all heretics. Kill…burn…torture …mame. tear apart….trample….all heretics.
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Here is what a fellow catholic told me today;……..
During the Middle Ages, the Church was the largest producer and distributor of extremely expensive bibles anywhere, but most people were also illiterate or only barely literate. It was therefore important to keep these people from having direct access to the Bible which they could misinterpret and twist to their own destruction and damnation. If every schmo read and interpreted the Bible in his own way, claiming to be guided by God, you are left with Protestantism.
Our beloved catholic church doesn’t want us to have a bible because we interpret it wrong to our own demise. The beloved CC is only looking out for our own welfare. Thank you Mary.
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Nickolas, excellently said.
Rev. Dr. Luther is called that because that is what his degrees are, it is entirely legitimate. He’s a worthy successor, i think to Augustine, and if things had turned out differently, i suspect that Rome would agree. But yes, his increasingly strident anti-Semitism is a problem but, it is one shared with many, many, in Christendom, including many of the Father’s of the Church, and many in Europe, even to this day, unfortunately.
To your main point, and C.’s as well. Much as I respect Rome, and its teachings, I think the administrative church (as opposed, perhaps, to the spiritual church) had strayed pre-Trent, and I think also post, from what the Lord taught. That’s OK, in a sense, the Roman Catholic Church, like all churches in the world, is a work of man, inspired by God. All churches stray, for various reasons, the good ones correct themselves eventually, and Rome usually does. But in many areas, it has become almost as Pharisaical as the Jewish temple was, and subject to the same criticisms. Personally, i think that is its legacy (and it’s not always a good one) from the empire , itself.
i some ways, I wonder, if it isn’t also still shaking off its loss of temporal power in the mid-nineteenth century. Seems to me that the church that suspected Newman of heresy, is still extant although much weakened.
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Thanks – yes, his title is really because of his degrees, as you say, but I couldn’t resist the link. It’s also worth thinking about the origin of that title, since it originally qualified someone as a teacher to be listened to, whereas nowadays it just means researcher in. A non-medical context.
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it’s a valid point, i think. One we don’t often make.
interesting point on the title as well. It often does, at that. it’s now more a recognition of a certain level obtained (even in medical context, often) than a indicator that one is qualified for anything in particular.
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Some important differences between the teaching Church and the Pharisees if I might. The Pharisees had not been given the keys to bind and loose as did Peter. Secondly, they were not given the assurance that the Holy Spirit would allow the Church to prevail even against the Gates of Hell as was the promise given by Christ to the new Church.
If you are equating the positive qualities of being vigilant and being watchful to that of the Pharisees . . . then I think one needs to define what a Pharisee is and contrast it with whatever it is that you think the Church is doing that fits the definition. In matters of faith and morals there are dictums that have been held from the beginning. The add ons, if one wants to call them that are derived from the earlier principles so that we can apply them to modern day situations that were not even dreamt of during the years of the early Church. To think that the Church went astray is to deny Christ’s assurance to quite the opposite conclusion.
God is still the God of History and much like the OT Church whose history was guided, whether pretty or exceedingly messy, to assure that the faith was passed on and spread throughout the world. Now God must act through sinful men but He does have a knack for bringing good from evil and these episodes, agree or disagree, is part of the history of the workings of our God in the unraveling of the mystery of God’s ultimate plan for humankind. We can lament the means but one must admit that the spread of Christianity seems divinely ordained.
God never promised that man would be perfect in his actions or words, only that the Holy Spirit that guides the teaching of the Church in faith and morals would be; and that the Sacraments and the deposit of faith will be safeguarded within the Church. No other religion was given such a mandate or assurance from the Savior.
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You work from the premise that Rome is ‘the one true church’. if so, your argument is valid, I (and although I can’t speak for him, I dare say Nicholas) and many others as well, deny the premise. We,, and likely others, would say simply that you are schismatic from the church, and take on airs not warranted.
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Yes, in agreement NEO. If the premise of Sola Ecclesia Romans is false, then there is no contradiction in what I have written.
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Nor in Rev. Dr. Luthers. i was pretty sure you would, although schismatic might be a bit strong, probably should concede rome some measure of the truth.
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Darned cheap keyboard, make that ‘Rome some measure of the Truth’. 🙂
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That was sort of my point in one of my answers to Nicholas. I think we are stuck at the point where we all know we really are: we disagree as to where the real church lies. And that by personal study, intuition, desire or emotion. Actually, I know of no other Church than actually teaches that they are the One, True Church founded by Christ, backed by historical records, and which survives to this day with the sacraments, the teachings on faith and morals intact and unchanged. So easy for me to decide and obviously others have come to their own opinions and think they have a remedy for the points of disagreement.
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Actually you are correct. No one else has the arrogance to attempt to exclude all others. It takes my breath away that the same church can for years suspect a man of heresy and then turn around and call him blessed, and still claim that they never change their beliefs. Butt that is exactly what rome did with JHN.
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Being watchful for that which dangerous to faith and morals is not a new concern and one that has routinely put saints of our Church in must worse situations than Newman ever encountered. St. John of the Cross was jailed by his own order and by the Holy Spirit found himself able to escape. His time in captivity produced the most inspired spiritual discourses the Church has yet produced: and now he is revered as a Doctor of Mystical Theology. We have many others who were examined rather harshly, like St. Pio, but they each did not blame the Church. They humbly submitted to the authority knowing that if their thinking, inspirations and revelations were from God, they would be vindicated in the end. Such was their trust in the Holy Spirit’s work within the Church. That they should suffer for Christ is a sign, not to be seen as a mistake, but as a strengthening of their faith and their loyalty which they passed with flying colors.
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First qualification: my use of the term “Pharisee” is cautionary rather than descriptive. I am not saying that the Catholic Church is Pharisaic per se. My point is more that we need a more developed sense of self-awareness and self-correction that is built on Biblical principles. In general, I have preferred to use the term ‘religious leadership’ in this piece because that is a better descriptor for the problem then and now. The chief priests who ruled in Jerusalem were not all Pharisees many were Sadducees, and this also a spirit that needs to be addressed – I dare say we may appear as Sadducees in the eyes of some.
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Excellent point. I suspect that we all forget and speak in almost a shorthand, i surely do.
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But I know of no Christian church that does not do soul searching and then at times even changes their stance on issues; contraception, marriage, homosexual unions, women priests, homosexual priests . . . you name it. The Catholic Church has the same thing, on the issues that it has addressed has mostly been in our practices rather than in actually faith and morality.
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That is very true, and in large measure, what we object to are some (note: some) of your practices. On many/ most/ almost all (pick one) many of us agree, or it simply doesn’t matter to us. One of the few that does affect us, is what C. addressed in comments on the last post, because you stick your nose into our business, but only when you see a benefit to yourselves, and that does stick in our craw.
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Maybe I missed the reference you are referring to in the comments by C. Where are we sticking our nose into your business. If you mean that within the art of apologetic arguments we disagree then the same could be said about any who enter into such discourse. There is no animus in honestly criticizing the differences in teachings and practices of one another’s religions, per se. It is only facts that we all need to keep in mind when we do engage in these conversations.
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No, Servus. We object to you considering a marriage in the courthouse sacramental, but only sometimes. We think you show a decided lack of mercy, when you should be saying “Go, and sin no more”. As most of the rest of us do.
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But that is not what the Catholic Church says. It has to do with the understanding of the 2 people involved. Did they understand the vows they were making and did that understand that the act was binding the two of them to a new creation: the two becoming one? That is what must be determined along with the understanding of if either of the partners held secret from the other spouse things that would make the marriage valid; such as their refusal to have children or that they did not consider the vows binding etc.
We do say “go and sin no more” once they have decided that they are in sin and when they are in a living situation that is not a continuation of the same sin . . . which means that they do not intend to amend their lives. In such a case, the absolution of sin is invalid and worthless.
If it were 2 homosexuals living as a couple, would you say the same? Until they quit having homosexual relations, you cannot absolve the sin and allow them to receive the Eucharist which is reserved for those who are not in mortal sin. “Go and sin no more.” That is exactly the point that the Church is trying to make. I’m sorry you don’t understand that this is at the crux of the issue.
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I am very chary of this subject, because am too close to it, in more than one way. But, maybe once and done.
it was just about a year ago that Jess and I finally struck our camp on Mt. Nebo, and gave up all hope of crossing the Tiber. It was on this subject, and for once I will quote Jess in an e-mail almost completely. That day in an email to me, in which I could hear her despair and her tears, she said, “i will burn in Hell forever before I lie to God to convince a canon lawyer.” Jess, like me was sinned against and we both believe that Rome’s position is simply a case of blaming the victim, and often because of the dynamics, blaming the most conscientious of the people involved. After all, atheists just don’t care what Rome (or any church) say.
My answer was simple, “I completely agree, and if they are right, I’ll see you there.”
And that was then, and is now, my final answer. I decided that day, that I am a Lutheran and will die one, and that was the day also when Jess made that decision for herself in her Anglican church. Rome drove us away, and we shall not return.
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Very sad, and I do wish Jess had taken me up on my offer for her to speak to my wife who has much more knowledge of the subject than I do. But let me simply say, the Church is not asking for Jess to lie to God and in fact it would make her paperwork invalid and useless. It is a theological determination that goes beyond our human ‘feelings’ about a situation that those involved are understandably emotionally invested. If one could step back from the scene for a moment and give the Church its opportunity to examine both of the ministers (the two spouses) of the first marriage and the circumstances and understanding of these two a determination can be made as to the fact as to whether a Sacramental has been received or not. It was pretty obvious, by her ex’s actions that he did not enter into a sacramental marriage and her annulment was almost assured. It requires no lies only the filling out of the paperwork to be examined by the tribunal. Just because it does not square with one’s understanding, prior entrance into the Catholic Faith, the fact that one is apparently interested in crossing the Tiber would seem to warrant the humility to bow to the teachings, all of them including the sacraments, and what makes it a valid or licit sacrament in this case. She could not and apparently you cannot. That is your right but it is probably best as the spirit of surrendering such judgments to the Church was simply too much for you to accept. I think you both would make marvelous Catholics but I do not blame the Church for not showing out its teachings to accommodate feelings that are more reserved to their own personal vows and do not take into account the whole of the situation which is what the Church ultimately basis its pronouncement on. Sorry that both of you missed that . . . and I fault myself somewhat for not being a better apologist and being able to explain the situation and teaching of the faith in a better way. I’m sure my wife could have done a better job.
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It’s certainly possible that she could but, the damage was done.And mind you I read it exactly as she did, That’s why i’m so careful about what i say, i don’t trust my judgement beyond a limited point, for the reasons that Nicholas limned above with reference to those who teach the faith.
And Jess,and I are both fairly well educated in the Faith, if that’s what we heard, what do others not so well educated hear.
It is no part of the church’s (any church’s) business what the other person (beyond perhaps ascertaining the betrayal) thinks or feels. And even that is problematical once one has made a good confession. Mine was a sunshine Lutheran, Jess’ was an atheist, try to find that chaplain. The church’s business is solely with the soul that resents itself, any other concern is simply voyeurism.
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Sorry, but my reply was put at the bottom of the post. Forget to hit the reply button on your comment.
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I know the feeling, thanks 🙂
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NEO, I should make one more remark concerning your statement concerning voyeurism. They are not interested in being voyeurs, only getting to the truth and making a good diagnosis and finding the truth concerning the validity of a Sacrament. It is no more voyeurism than it is giving your doctor all the information he needs to diagnose a problem or giving your lawyer all the information so that he can make a good defense or know where he might look to find the applicable rules that pertain to your defense. The more information you provide the better you help your doctor or your lawyer. It is the same thing.
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All churches stray, for various reasons, the good ones correct themselves eventually, and Rome usually does.
How dare you. The One true catholic universal pure and white catholic church has never erred and never needs correcting.
let us pray;…Oh mary,may you rip out the tongues of these protestant liars and shove them back down their throats.Then burn their houses and send their children out on the streets. And OOOHHHH Mary, may a 757 Airbus crash into their protestant church while they sing Luther hymns. Thank you Mary.
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And OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MARY, may a bus run over Bosco’s face for his rampant fake Catholicism! Thank you, Mary!
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Again, that was the point. The Church doesn’t care a wit about what you ‘feel’ – in regards to the marriage. It asks questions that are only germane to the case.
As to others. All I can tell you is that the backlog for annulments is at an all time high – which tells me that most people are willing to submit their decisions to the Church. C, did and Steve Brown did and I have witnessed quite a large number of fallen away Catholics returning to the faith and others who are making their sojourn across the Tiber and nothing will deter them. So I guess, you were either not ready or, as I say, since it is such a thorny issue that is best addressed by experts rather than us run-of-the-mill apologists that it might have gone differently had you or Jess met and spoken with the right people and examined the paperwork that is required. It hasn’t stopped folks from coming into the Church as most of our RCIA classes usually have 2 or 3 couples who need to go through the process. Conversions are at an all time level. So I don’t know what to tell you.
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That is indeed the point.This is one case where I agree with Pope Francis, the church is a hospital, not a law court, and if you are seeing so many annulments (I don’t doubt it), maybe your church (and mine and the rest, as well) would better serve our mission if we tried to cure the problem instead of judging the (often innocent) victims.
I don’t know C’s or Steve’s case enough to have an opinion (well, I have one in C’s case, justified, or not) but in Jess’ and mine I do know enough, and she needed a shoulder, not a sword arm,, or even a scale, Our feelings matter, Faith is not completely logic, or words on paper. It is never all cut and dried in a hospital.
No, I was as ready as I have ever been, and given where I live, it was a good option for me but it was taken from me, by men, not God.
While we all overstep our knowledge (I do often) but it behooves us to show the velvet glove much more than the mailed fist. we do less harm that way.
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It is not the job of the tribunal to lend a shoulder to cry on. That is the job of my wife and the pastor of the church that is to attend . . . and some of them are rather good at it . . . others, not so much. That is a personality thing. As far as the tribunal goes, of course its legal. That is because we are speaking of the legal issues that make a Catholic Sacrament valid and licit. How else, except through Canon Law are you to address it? Are you to ignore the teachings of the Church that determine the validity of the Sacraments which are sometimes rather technical? It takes Canon Lawyers to look into such as this is out of the area of expertise of us laymen: though C does seem to think that he has a better way than the Church. 🙂 I told him that before as he is always talking about people who think they know that they know better than the Church. I guess it is the subject matter involved and one’s personal experience that comes to play.
My experience isn’t from the inside but from that outside and I have seen literally 10 to 15 annulments go through with my students and they were all happy when it was over and they could enter the Church without any encumbrance which would be a cloud hanging over their heads. Free at last, free at last; thank God almighty, free at last. 🙂
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C. does have a better way. I refuse to put myself and my Faith under the judgement of men, that is for God and only God. No ‘tribunal’ on Earth is competent to judge my Faith, or sins.
My understanding of confession is that it absolves one from sin if done sincerely, if so (and if not so, what is the point, exactly) along perhaps with penance, which we all do, organized or not. If the church is not here to show mercy to sinners, it has no valid purpose.
It has become an example as Chesterton says, “When you break the big laws, you get the little laws.” that’s bad in a civil society, it is worse, in a religious group.
We would do well to remember, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
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Well, I’m glad that you both think you know better than the Church but I think that you will find some resistance from C about being under the judgment of men, Since men are the instrument God uses to transmit His teachings and we each are asked to judge what is sin and what is not once instructed. What that has to do with the tribunal I will say to you one more time: they are not judging your faith or your sins. That is not their role and that is between you and your confessor. And if Confession isn’t an expression of mercy to sinners, I don’t know what is. That in itself is it’s purpose: to free us from guilt and dry our tears, pick ourselves back up and get back on the path to sanctification. So I would say that is a rather valid purpose indeed.
Well I would hope that if I am in sin, I could be forgiven, given a penance and some constructive advice on how to avoid the same sins in the future and to leave the Confessional with the weight of sin removed from my back. And I would hope the same for every Christian. If you haven’t experienced the relief and the peace that comes from a good Confession it cannot be described to you. So yes, please, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Point me to a confessional and rescue me from my sins and I will point you in the same direction. I won’t judge you by your sins and I trust that they are not judging me by mine . . . and I know that they don’t. If they did, I don’t know how my wonderful priest mentors could have stomached having me as one of their trusted friends and comrades. Confessions to them were common and they were forgotten the moment I was given absolution.
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You must not conflate judgement with guidance in what i said.
I willingly accept guidance and correction, for my (many) sins. I understand confession quite well, although not exactly in the form in which Rome adopted it in the 13th century, although that is not invalid, and there are Lutherans (and Anglicans), that I respect that agree, I can see me agreeing as well, if it was physically available to me.
Where I am now, my confession goes directly to The High Priest and/or to a trusted Christian friend, either can be effective and in fact are the original form. I have come to understand that confession quite literally saved my life last fall, so yes, I don’t disagree.on its efficaciousness.
I had no intention of imputing any clergy, I know and agree that they are all (excepting a few bad apples, in all churches) doing the absolute best they can, in a very difficult calling. i admire them greatly.
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They do deserve our admiration and we need to pray for the ones who have the charism of spiritual direction as we are sorely lacking in that at the moment. And of course the binding and loosing of sins by the apostles who were given this power is an important part of our spiritual well=being. Since it has been passed on to the priests that they appointed down to the present day, it does give one quite a bit of solace concerning those things that weigh heavy on our conscience. Just wish more were capable of understanding spiritual direction and advancement in prayer. Maybe the newer priests will bring this back in the future – still hoping of a revival of much of what has been last these last 50 years or so.
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Agreed. With the very minor caveat, that because of the ‘universal priesthood’ that both of our churches profess, it was passed down to us all, although we’d be wise to use it wisely, carefully, and well. Sparingly might also be a good idea. 🙂
Spiritual direction is a problem for us all (except Bosco, i suppose), I hope with you that the young ones coming up are much better at it than most (but not all) i have known over the years.
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And my minor caveat is that the universal (royal) priesthood differs in greatly from that of the ministerial priest.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-priesthood-is-both-ministerial-and-universal
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Saint Mary’s Cathedral, the flagship church of the Archdiocese of San Francisco and home worship community of embattled Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone, is under fire for installing a watering system that drenches homeless people to keep them from sleeping on the sanctuary steps.
According to San Francisco news station KCBS, the system was placed above four doors surrounding the cathedral that attract homeless people at night. They observed that, beginning just before sunset, water descended for about 75 seconds from a sprinkler above each doorway every 30 to 60 minutes, covering the alcoves below in water. KCBS reported seeing it douse homeless people and their belongings.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/03/19/3635964/what-would-jesus-do-definitely-not-this/
Get those homeless beggars out of here. Turn the hose on them! Scat..Get out, and don’t come back. This is the church Christ founded, not a public park.
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This is a high tech baptism apparatus to wash away their sins and their smell and to “wash” them away too.
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njb4725
Great post. Am in agreement with your ideas.
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Thank you, Carl. You know, as time permits, of course, I’d still be interested in your series on Congregational vs Presbyterian. With your Presbyterian background, you bring something quite unique to the blog.
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Good thoughts Nicholas. The question I asked myself so often as the Anglican Church overturned Biblical precept after Biblical precept (contraception, divorce, women priests, belief in the physical resurrection) was by what authority they acted. It seemed, and seems, to me that it is on the authority of their reason. But their reason is not shared by the Orthodox or the Catholics, so one either took the view that progressivism was the will of the Spirit and the Anglicans were ahead of the game, or they were adapting the the spirit of the age. Taking that last view, it was necessary to find a place whose authority had another foundation.
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Thank you, C. I was worried writing this that I may have gone too far. I am generally a rather conflict-averse person, but I since you and SF both seem to want a Protestant voice here in Geoffrey’s absence, I feel that between us, NEO, Rob, and I all need to put in our thoughts as things arise.
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I am sure Servus is as grateful as I am for your voice here 🙂
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Indeed I am, C. 🙂
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I am in agreement with you over the Anglican Church – Orthodoxy and Catholicism both offer a much more robust defence of core doctrines and morality. This was in fact part of my initial desire to become a Catholic – they seemed to be the only ones who not only stood for something, but actually did something about it. Still true today – in the fight against abortion I’ll take a Catholic ally any day of the week.
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“Until they quit having homosexual relations, you cannot absolve the sin and allow them to receive the Eucharist which is reserved for those who are not in mortal sin”.
But its Ok for a homosexual to be a priest and perform the mass and bring god down from heaven for all to see. its just not rite for the man in the pew to be homosexual. Our pure and white catholic churches teachings are for the man in the pews. our priests are exempt. Thank you Mary
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