Chalcedon’s article, here, struck a number of chords with me, and I thought maybe another perspective would be useful. His linked article on the liturgy from the forties and fifties just made me nod and go, “I thought he was talking about the Catholic Church, not my home church”. The order of worship hadn’t changed in at least one generation, the opening hymn was verse one of hymn #1 Holy, holy, holy, not that anybody got out the hymnal, we had all memorized it at our mother’s (if not Grandma’s) knee, the Doxology was just that, The Doxology, and that’s all the program had to say about it. The program was one page of a folded letter size piece of paper. Given that this was back in the time of the one year Lectionary, I wouldn’t take a bet that the Preacher (and that is what he was called) didn’t read the one he had written 20 years before.
When he retired, we called one of those new-fangled pastors, and darned near had a mutiny when he substituted the Nicene Creed one Sunday for the Apostle’s Creed, I never even knew the Anthanasian Creed existed till I joined my church here. Now mind you this is the pastor that confirmed me, and on our class field trip, one of the people we met was a Rev. Wright in Chicago, you might have heard of him around 7 or so years ago. That’s the UCC, all things to all men, and that’s the Roman Catholic Church, The Anglican Communion (especially the Church of England, with the added fillip of being controlled by a mostly Godless Parliament, and the Lutheran church as well. It works (sort of) when there is good will on all sides and that’s rare. When it doesn’t you get schism and sometimes religious wars.
By my count there are at least four churches calling themselves the Roman Catholic Church:
- There’s the hippy dippy, anything that makes you feel good church of Nancy Pelosi, ‘The Nuns the Bus’ and such.
- There is the church of the people who think every innovation is bad. this is our own QVO’s church and to a somewhat varying but lesser extent Servus, Chalcedon, and yes, me as well, although on the Lutheran side. We’re the people who think the word ‘novelty’ is a curse.
- Then there is the great middle ground, the great majority of whom may well be poorly catechized for one reason or another, or who are just too busy trying to make ends meet, working anything up to three jobs each, to really pay attention. This is, I suspect, most of the Catholic population world-wide. they know that Jesus died for them and is Risen, they likely pray, albeit informally, and let the rest go right over their head. But they try to do the right thing, and they are indisputably Christians. Some percentage of these (some reports say about 20%) actually regularly attend worship, Mass, whatever term you prefer. Another percentage are what Protestants call C&E Christians, which stands for Christmas and Easter, when they show up, and a lot never darken the door, but they claim some church or another. Actually, that is the majority in all our churches, I know them well, I was one of them most of my life.
- Then there is the bureaucratic church, the people who keep the light bill paid, St. Peter’s ceiling painted, the clergy on message, the cemetery mowed, and all the niggling little details that go into running the world’s largest organization. God bless them from the Curia right on down to the janitor at the soup kitchen, without them it would fall apart.
But where it all goes wrong for Rome (and to an extent Canterbury and Stockholm as well) is that we have one man, a Godly man, to be sure, but one lonely man sitting there, trying to control this stampede of millions around the world, and if that wasn’t enough, whatever the official doctrine says, you expect him to be infallible with the (unfriendly) press in the back of the plane.
And if that still isn’t enough, you expect him to be an economic genius, and expert on all the other religions of the world, and why they’re are wrong.
And then we Protestants chime in and expect him to function as the patriarch of the west, as well, simply because he can make himself heard over the world’s din.
The man born of woman has never yet been born in this world that can do this job. Maybe Jesus could but his team was often pretty fractious itself.
And maybe it worked better a thousand years ago simply because communication was slow and Rome far away. That where subsidiarity came from, few things went past the bishop at most because it simply took too long.
Lessons? Nope, not from me, I just want you to think before you yell, and pray for the Pope if any man needs all of our prayers, it’s him.
Aye, it is an awesome responsibility and would probably kill most men . . . if it were not a position that is given support by the Grace of the Holy Spirit. But when acting, simply as a leader, in world events and social issues, he is just a man. So some are better than others. Some are downright awful; not unlike the occasional Jimmy Carter or Barrack Obama landing on the scene.
As to the Mass and the changes to the Mass given the RCC by Pope Paul VI, it was 50 years ago, yesterday, that it was celebrated by the Pope for the first time in public. And it is not only conservative Catholics that saw this changes as novel and as a trivialization of the older form, but even a good Lutheran had this to say:
Professor Peter L. Berger, for example, a Lutheran sociologist, echoed von Hildebrand’s sentiments when he observed: “If a thoroughly malicious sociologist, bent on injuring the Catholic community as much as possible had been an adviser to the Church, he could hardly have done a better job.”
I think he was right. What we did, in designing a Mass by some ‘cook book’ so that it would not offend anybody, designed a Mass that does no longer inspires anyone either.
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Of course the experience of the convert to Catholicism is one of great joy and gratitude, even in today’s modern Mass. The Holy Spirit still speaks to the faithful. Even though I won’t “be Catholic” until this Easter, in the years of attending Mass, the overwhelming gratitude of finding my church home are profoundly joyous graces. This is not a unique figment of my imagination; many other new converts have experienced it. I know this is not news, I just want to record that fact here. 🙂
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It is a good point to make as I too experienced the same. The longing for the TLM was something that developed after I had the pleasure of attending it during a retreat. Since then, I can desire no other . . . as it seems to recall all the history of the great saints and bring them to mind as if one has joined a very special spiritual experience that seems like a bit of Heaven on earth.
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In reply to both of you, I wonder if that isn’t something that many of us here share, if you look we’re almost all converts from one church to another, and we are fairly well catechized as well. Is that because we joined as adults? I’ve often thought that Rome confirms too young but over on our side at 13-14 years old, we had other things on our mind, of quite a lot more immediate interest, as well 🙂 maybe that’s part of the difference between cradle (insert denomination here) and us converts.
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I think it is part of it though there are so many notable excetptions who knew they were going to be a religious, priest or pastor when they were but 7 or 8 years old: on the RCC side, saints like Catherine of Sienna, Fr. Benedict Grouches, Dom Bosco, St. Dominci Savio who died as while an altar server. It really depends on primarily grace: those who are put in front of you, your peers, your parents, your priest or pastor and of course who teaches you the fundamentals of your faith.
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Yes, of course, all rules have exceptions. It’s just a general observation, and in addition perhaps we are converts because we were looking harder, as well. Could be a chicken and egg question here, I think.
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Indeed.
In fact, I see that the mother and father of St. Therese Lisieux are to be canonized soon by the Pope. So some of the saintliest people come from very religious homes as well. That only makes sense to me.
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Servus, who is this Fr. Benedict Grouches, I’d like to know more about him. Great video you posted!
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He’s the adopted son of Jack Benny and Groucho Marx.
Yeah, so what that my fingers got all tangled up? What’s it to you? If you want any more hamburgers and apple streusel you better watch your sarcasm!
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I’m not qualified to comment on Mass, really but:
“What we did, in designing a Mass by some ‘cook book’ so that it would not offend anybody, designed a Mass that does no longer inspires anyone either.”
is just plain true in any field at any time, offending nobody eventually either puts everybody to sleep or offends everybody.
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True, my friend. Not that it has no adherents these days – but at the time the shock and the effectiveness was not lost on many people.
And from Cardinal Ratzinger the future Pope: “What happened after the Council . . . in the place of ‘liturgy as the fruit of development’ came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it—as in a manufacturing process—with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”
It was a complete break in the process that Church had followed prior to the Council and I, for one, would not shed a tear to see it fall into disuse and put back into the archives of the Vatican. 🙂
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Yes, I understand. Ours was similar, nobody had heard a word for at least 20 years but, the free for all that followed wasn’t the answer, either.
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No indeed it wasn’t. The person talking to Msgr. Pope in the article C referred said this: /Neither today are things always beautiful. But now, as then, there are good things, and many are in fact engaged quite deeply in the celebration of the sacred liturgy. It is a sad truth that attendance is low, perhaps as low as 20% of Catholics on a given Sunday. But among those who do attend there is increasing awareness of what we do and why.’
What he didn’t mention and few do is the loss of the belief in the Real Presence which polls indicate is at about 70% who think of it as mere symbolism which should tell the Church that something is not getting communicated either in catechesis or in the Mass itself. __ source, CRUX article http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/02/23/i-dont-believe-the-eucharist-is-the-body-of-christ-am-i-going-to-hell/
Pretty sad stuff for a Catholic.
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Very sad stuff my friend.
We had a parallel process in the Church of England, where they abandoned the wonderful prose of Cranmer for committee-speak which failed to inspire even those who wrote it – so much so they have changed it every few years in an ever more frantic attempt to seem relevant to someone! The Orthodox have the right idea. Get a Mass and stick with it.
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Amen. There is nothing like sticking to one’s traditions, even if they are holiday traditions in a family or what have you. It binds us together with our parents and our parents, parents etc. To destroy these things is something akin to tearing a family apart . . . which has happened and is much of what drives our factiousness in these days of crisis.
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Seems to me that in most of these there was a loss of focus, they didn’t have a clear idea of what they were trying to accomplish. and so it’s muddled, and like you say, reads like it was written by a committee and a government one at that. The old ones were often very shopworn but they knew what they were about at least.
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Indeed – I daresay there is a godly use for committees, but mostly not!
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I suppose, maybe they really did help with the camel.
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Same on my side of the river, including the Real Presence, of course. but, I think it better to have committed, if fewer people in the pews than a bunch of rubberneckers.
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Yes, there is a strange mix of folks in Church these days which baffles me why they even show up . . . and those who value what our forefathers would have died for are as rare as hens teeth; though they are, I suspect, still out there but most being in parishes with the TLM and given good catechesis.
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i suspect, in a lot of cases, as things get harder many of them will increase in the faith. Easy living does cause complacency, and we’ve had it very easy for a long time.
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Indeed we have.
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Here is priest that knew hardship and set an example for RCC’s and all others as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZuPrQBSDCs
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I think this post says something quite interesting about leadership. Truly biblical leaders are people who have gone through the steps of life such that they understand the people they are leading (e.g. David was a shepherd, a soldier, a king’s musician…). One of the problems with leadership in any situation is communication. How well do the governors and the governed understand each other? It seems to me, looking at the V II issue, that it isn’t simply a case of “wickedness” being “foisted on” the laity – the fact that people were willing to accept it says something about their own values and concerns. That is why I find it interesting that SF and Chalcedon refer to catachesis every so often: insight, education, and open channels of communication. Much to think about.
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You hit here on one of my complaints about modern society in general. I was taught to respect my elders not because they were old but because they had lived through much the same problems that i was facing, and likely had good ideas about them. That’s something we have mostly lost with our worship of the young, and that is why so many of our churches have a specific office called an “Elder”. Now that i am amongst them I understand that many of the problems of the young are mostly the same that I faced, maybe I can help them see, maybe not, but experience of others is much less painful than learning it all on your own.
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Yes, and you see things differently when you work the other side of the fence. I’ve been serving for around a year on my church’s leadership team, and it helps you see the dangers of overburdening people. We should all be careful to think of ways we can make things easier for our pastors.
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true enough on that. it’s not an easy job by any means.
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No, and I think it’s hard in our Western society because people think all the pastor does is write and give a sermon – they have no idea about what he does for visiting the sick, arranging rotas, taking care of business and legal things etc, keeping the church informed…the list goes on.
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It does, in many ways he’s the general manager of a business as well as a pastor.
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Yes. That reminds me of something a read about some years back where pastors were concerned in the US that they would lose their charity/tax bracket as stated by the IRS if they preached things contrary to the government’s position. To an extent scare mongering, but it’s not inconceivable.
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Not at all, sadly.
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Protestants.
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Do you ever attend home-group?
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I can say I don’t attend home groups, what ever they are. Now that im catholic, I only attend catholic groups.
Thank you Mary
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To be fair, some Catholics have home groups for prayer and bible study.
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I used to do that kind of stuff when I was a protestant. Now I get everything I need from the priest at my local temple.
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Poe.
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hello my good brother Newengland. Have you considered joining the one true church that Christ founded?
Hail Mary
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How ’bout this, Bosco–I’ll join the Catholic Church when YOU join the Catholic Church.
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I joined the one true catholic church . I am a warrior for Mary. I have gone one step further than my mentor David Williams the Great. In one hand I have a rosary, and in the other hand I have a machine gun. That way, when the maching gun runs out of bullets, I can strangle enemies of the catholic church with the rosary. Thank you Mary.
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All I can say Bosco is B.S.
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I understand you are of the Anglican garden variety of heretic. Yould better sleep with one eye open.
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I understand you’re of the Metallica-rip-off variety of Christianity. You’d better sleep with both eyes open.
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As most of you know as a, “Cradle Catholic” I was brought up on the TLM and the use of a Cabrol Daily Missal and later on lots of Gregorian Chant.
Now at the “Casa” in Paradise Valley AZ most of you have seen my video of the Easter Mass and have commented according to your point of view.
Just an update to Servus and C, we’ve almost reached our goal to start building a new church to hold about 600, double the present capacity. It’s to be built debt free. We’re just shy of $18M.
At present we have five Masses, one on the Eve, three during the morning and one in the evening. My guess is that we have between 1200 and 1500 in attendance every Sunday.
This Easter we’ll have 17 entering the Church, an average for us. Since I started attending, there have been a number Jewish converts, a Hindu and a Muslim. I think we could do better.
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simply outstanding. yes, most of us have and the rest can find it, I’m sure. While it is not to my taste or some others here, I doubt that matters, really. It works for you and your church. THAT matters!
And seventeen entering, wish we could all say that. Bravo Zulu, my friend.
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David, 17 is great. Servus & I helped with RCIA at a parish about the size of yours and after marriage problems we ended up with an average of 6-8. I was always very disappointed in that low number, but then each is a great blessing. Great news on your new church, I know you will be very proud.
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Indeed, in these times 17 a year is outstanding. Congrats!
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Thank you all. I wish i could say that I had a hand in it some way but not.
In a few days I’ll have another announcement.
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Don’t tell me that you joined the Calvary Chapel with Bosco as your sponsor? 🙂
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You rang?
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