The other day this showed up in my Twitter feed.
And since BruvverEccles is one of the people that I highly respect, I followed the link, which led me here.
[…]
OK here goes (this is exactly as I’d say it to a 10 year old): Some people think that what we do at Mass is a bit like having a meal – a special meal – but still a meal. In some ways this is right, BUT it is the most special meal you can imagine. It is special because the person you love most in the world (Jesus, of course) is actually giving you himself as food. That sounds a bit gruesome doesn’t it? Well, that’s what’s special about Mass – Jesus gave us the way to eat his body and drink his blood in a non-gruesome way the night before he was raised up on a cross. This was called the Last Supper – or you could call it the First Mass! You see, the important thing is that Jesus died and was raised up again 3 days later. That’s what we have at Mass, not just a memory of something that happened in the past, but we’re actually there – we are there with Mary beside the cross, but also there 3 days later when Jesus rose from the dead. So to go back in time to the night BEFORE he died doesn’t make sense – why would we want to go back in time then? The most important bit hadn’t happened yet! Instead, on that night Jesus gave us the way, not to time travel, but to make present in our today what He did for us once and for all. […]
Here’s the link again wp.me/p2sOVi-np
And that explanation rang a bell with me. It is very reminiscent of what julian of Norwich wrote in her Revelation of Divine Love, which I wrote about last fall (on NEO) here and here. She is also T. S. Elliot’s source for the verse that I quote often from Little Gidding in The Four Quartets.
Sin is Behovely, but
All shall be well, and
All manner of thing shall be well.
If I think, again, of this place,
And of people, not wholly commendable,
Of no immediate kin or kindness,
But of some peculiar genius,
All touched by a common genius,
United in the strife which divided them;
If I think of a king at nightfall,
Of three men, and more, on the scaffold
And a few who died forgotten
In other places, here and abroad,
And of one who died blind and quiet
Why should we celebrate
These dead men more than the dying?
It is not to ring the bell backward
Nor is it an incantation
To summon the spectre of a Rose.
We cannot revive old factions
We cannot restore old policies
Or follow an antique drum.
These men, and those who opposed them
And those whom they opposed
Accept the constitution of silence
And are folded in a single party.
Whatever we inherit from the fortunate
We have taken from the defeated
What they had to leave us—a symbol:
A symbol perfected in death.
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
By the purification of the motive
In the ground of our beseeching
And so, we see in these two expressions spread over half a millenium, a deep and continuing strain of mysticism in the Mass, more specifically in the Eucharist, connecting us back to the little band of disciples who witnessed the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
I thought we might expand a bit on Julian’s writings to shed a bit more light on it. (Note that that my copy of her manuscript has some problems in transcription that I’m nowhere near competent to fix.)
For man, he holdeth some deeds well done, and some deeds evil – and our Lord beholdeth them not so, for as all that 34
me
hath being in kind of God’s making, so is all thing that is done, in property of God’s making. For it is easy to understand that the best deed is well done; and all in the property and order that our Lord hath ordeined to, fro without beginning. For their is no Door (doer) but he.
and
[…] and all his pains and passions bodily and ghostly, and the pains of all his creatures ghostly and bodily. and we shall be troubled following our master Jesu, till we are purged of our deadly flesh, and all our inward affectations, which be not very good. And the holding of this with all the pains that ever were, or ever shall be. And with all this I understood the passion of Christ, for the most pain and over passing.
I think we can see in even these short excerpts, one of the best explanations of why sometimes we seem to get crosswise with the Lord. It’s simply that we are not privy to all the information that He has. And so we come back to, “We see through a glass but darkly”. To be honest, in my experience, knowing this doesn’t necessarily ease the pain of something we desperately want but, it may at least help us to understand why the Father sometimes says , “No”.
And yes, Julian of Norwich’s book is fascinating, as is her story, there’s a link to where it can be downloaded here.
Apologies if this is a duplicate. My comment doesn’t seem to have appeared.
Thanks for the compliment! I only discovered the Faith In Our Families blog fairly recently, and it’s worth checking out.
http://faithinourfamilies.com
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You’ve earned it many times over.
I looked around a bit when I followed your link, and I completely agree, a very good one.
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And since BruvverEccles is one of the people that I highly respect
That figures.
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It’s wise to respect a wise man.
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Not to change the subject but this link to an interview with Cardinal Burke speaks to much of what is wrong in the Church because of the loss of the concept of what a real man is: http://www.newemangelization.com/uncategorized/cardinal-raymond-leo-burke-on-the-catholic-man-crisis-and-what-to-do-about-it/
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Yep, off topic but a good article, which is now filed for that series. Thanks.
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I think it is important as both of us have explored this avenue a number of times in the past.
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his mass where Jesus is sacrificed over and over again, is now being conjured up by a lady;
A Missouri woman is claiming to be Kansas City’s first Roman Catholic priest.
Rev. Georgia Walker, a former Sister of St. Joseph, was ordained on Saturday in a ceremony that was not recognized by The Catholic Diocese of Kansas City – St. Joseph — and will likely get her excommunicated.
Still, the 67-year-old says she wasn’t nervous.
“What the official church does to me is not relevant,” Walker told HuffPost. “They can’t take away my baptism, they can’t take away my calling to the priesthood. All they can do is deny me their sacraments.”
“But now, I am a priest and I can provide those sacraments,” she continued. “Not just to myself but to others.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/06/female-catholic-priest-missouri_n_6419442.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
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“Rev. Georgia Walker, a former Sister of St. Joseph, was ordained on Saturday in a ceremony that was not recognized by The Catholic Diocese of Kansas City – St. Joseph — and will likely get her excommunicated.”
And therefore, Bosco, she is not a priest, simply a heretic, like you.
And nobody with anything between their ears but hot air believe anything on HuffPo, anyway.
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Are you suggesting that there is no Georgia Walker, that she is fictional?
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No she’s real enough, but as always the account is biased, and badly.
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Whats biased about the account?
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They always are Bosco, I no longer read trash, I leave it for you.
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No one can stop someone saying they are Napoleon or the Lone Ranger; doesn’t make ’em it.
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. . . nor from claiming they are saved and that the Gospel was only meant for them and therefore only they can understand it. It still doesn’t make it so but I must confess that it is an ingenious defense for being at odds with all of Christianity for its 2000 year history.
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I’ll leave you to deal with him on the 7 sacraments, if I might 🙂
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As will I. 🙂
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Thanks a lot. 🙂
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You’re good at it, my friend. 🙂
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Not good enough I’m afraid for this one. For this type you must fast and pray for days to have any effect.
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Or “Shake down the thunder, from the skies” 🙂
He just likes to try to distract us, he’s a one trick hobbyhorse, and has overused it. 🙂
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Reminds me of an old aphorism. Pride goeth before the fall” What a long fall it will be!
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It certainly can be. Think of the chasm left to us by one sin of pride by Adam and Eve.
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indeed so.
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Withhold or deny the sacraments to someone. First of all, one has to believe these sacrements do anything, which they don’t.
Second, the arrogance of this church is astounding, thinking they have god on a leash, that they can withhold salvation from anyone, which they cant. I can see the unsaved believing anything and everything, but this should be a stretch even for the worsteresterest unsaved bloke to believe the CC can withhold god from his people. One wild claim after another.
Jesus still stands at your door.
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They are simply saving people from a grave error. Read Luther on the consequences of taking communion wrongly, for another view.
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Oh, they are saving people from grave error? That’s so nice of them.
Forrrr hes a jolly good fellow
for hes a jolly good(come on, sing along with Bosco)fellow
for hes a jolly good fellow
That nobody can deny
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Surely better than an eternity in Hell, Bosco. It’s simply a warning, and can (and usually is, reversed upon confession
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Are you catholic or Lutheran?
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i’m, Christian, Bosco. what are you?
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I follow the Lord. Why didn’t you admit to being of Luther? That is what the sign says on your church building, isn’t it?
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Actually no. It says St. Paul’s. But then its a Christian church.
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“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” __ John 20:23
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” __ Matt 16:19
I guess Jesus was only a’kiddin’, huh Bosco? He lied to Peter and to the Apostles and now you are setting the record straight. Good to have you do so. You are as wise as a serpent – but then, I guess, a serpent should be so.
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Jesus gave this to his apostles. true. Where are they when you need them? They are gone.
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Say the words Apostolic succession slowly and then look them.up. The authority continues, in the RCC and some others.
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yes, I know. The Mormons have all 12 apostles. They are the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Their name says so.
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Good to have explain the time frame of the promises. Was it for the minute, the hour, the day or a year. Seems they thought it was given to them for all times since they continued for 2000 years to do so. Of course, Satan denies that and even detests the idea for he wants man to die in sin and to be without any authority which might be able to dissuade them from sinning and forgive them when they are repentant. But then you take Satan’s side which I would expect.
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I take Jesus advice. His yoke is easy. I don’t sweat over all this stuff you guys have saddled yourself with. Jesus burden is light. He leadeth me to still waters.
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Lakes of fire usually are fairly calm, warm though!
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I hate to break it to you, but it is not Jesus’s advice which you take. You don’t even take His words from scripture seriously. So wherever you are being led it isn’t the still waters you think they are unless it is a dead and sulfurous lake.
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But when a lazy man devises his own yoke, it is always easy, and usually left in the ditch, anyway.
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Precisely. His yoke is so easy because there is no yoke. Nothing to do but twiddle one’s fingers until they end up at their reward. Sadly the rewards are not usually given out to those who aren’t even in the race.
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That’s not fair, Waaaah!!
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Besides Bosco, they wrote a book. it’s called the Bible.
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Clearly he was only jesting – he was waiting until Bosco came before revealing the truth. A bit cruel to keep us all in the dark for the last two thousand years.
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Indeed it was, my friend. 🙂
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I shall look forward to Bosco’s answer on 1 Corinthians 11 – or rather to his ignoring it.
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It will be more of the same, I’m afraid. We don’t understand the scriptures because they were not written for us, alas, only for Bosco and Jack Chick. 🙂
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He seems to have lost bis script – which figures, he jumped the shark a while back.
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Seems so.
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The shark ate his homework, perhaps? 🙂
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Paul was trying to set the Corinthians straight. They worried about covering the head and other things to do, as if god cared.Befor one takes communion, examine yourself. These are hard sayings. Paul was as deep into the ways of god as no man befor or after.
I just follow the Lamb, and let him do the worrying for me.
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If Paul was so deep into God’s ways, why don’t you read and obey what he says?
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How odd, Bosco. You keep telling us the Bible means what it says, and when you don’t agree with that, you tell us it doesn’t mean what it says – which is it?
Paul says that if you eat and drink unworthily you bring damnation on yourself – that sounds a pretty serious effect for something you say has none.
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Im trying to remember. Im thinking it kinda means doing communion to make god happy. Just do it and think that now you’ve done what it takes to ensure salvation. That would be unworthily. You all ask me what unworthily, but no one of you bible sholars has said what that means. You try to trap me with my words.
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You trap yourself. Unworthily means what it alway does. Not worthy to partake.
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Unworthy means what it says. If you take communion whilst you are in a state of sin, you bring damnation on yourself. That’s what St Paul says. Of course, as it knocks over your nonsense of once saved always saved, you can’t admit that.
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Too bad. It doesn’t say unworthy. Yeah, unworthy means unworthy. the scripture says unworthily.
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Twist and turn. Now go buy a dictionary so you can learn some English.
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Unworthily is the state of being unworthy – trust me, I’m English and it is my native language.
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Funny, it means the same thing in American. 🙂
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Bosco can’t admit it, because if he did, his whole system would fall over – which, of course, it does.
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It would indeed, and it does.
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Just what do you suppose ‘unworthily’ actually means?
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Unworthily is a action word. But it doesn’t matter. Being unsaved is enough to send one to hell. These concepts are for the saved, not the unsaved.
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If you eat his body unworthily, you will go to hell. I wonder what happens if you call his body a cracker?
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I’m sure Paul would have been grateful to have you there to admonish him and set him straight.
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Likely he was, in spirit. He lost then, as well.
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Well if Bosco can set Jesus straight and make Him say what Bosco thinks then he might have had success with Paul as well.
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twist, turn, and spin, not to mention cherry pick.
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Yes, all of the above.
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So, Bosco, what do you think St Paul is going on about here:
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
As usual, you appear not to have any understanding of what you have memorised.
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I wish it would do some good but the most logical explanations are not heard by laughing hyenas.
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Well, at least no one can say we did not try.
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We did but the Father of Lies seems to be working harder than we. Might be best if we call on the most BVM. That should really wrinkle him. 🙂
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He always reacts badly to her holy name 🙂
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Indeed so. All the more reason for us to invoke Her intercession for the salvation of his soul.
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I think he’s afraid of her, likely because she’s right.
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All Truth is but a stumbling block to those blinded by pride and arrogance.
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I used to have a good answer to that, but I forgot the ins and outs. But it has something to do with the word unworthily.The word suggests the act is whats in question, not the moral or mental state of the partaker, I think.
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You wrote that the sacraments had no effect. St Paul wrote:’ he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body’ – which clearly shows they have en effect.Now, who do you suppose was right, you or St Paul?
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I maintain that the catholic 7 or 14 sacrements are not biblical. I mean the bible doesn’t have this 7 things to do in it. Jesus never said 7 sacrements. its just more religious mumbo jumbo.if 7 sacrements are necessary, why are your priests denied marriage? Or is it 7 for some and 6 for others?
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You said the sacraments had no effect, St Paul says otherwise. Can you explain why we should prefer your view to that of St Paul, and while you are at it, why God told St Paul one thing and you another? Thank you in advance – as you will, as you do here, try to avoid the question.
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“Order, counterorder, disorder” comes to mind. it what some do when they have no argument.
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Oh, it just dawned on me. The priestcraft are just service animals. They bring you god baptism, then they die and go to hell when they get too old to work.Is that why cathols don’t mind how wicked priests can act? They are just service animals?
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No, as usual, wrong.
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So St. Paul is now a service animal that went to hell once he died? Nice of you to share that with us.
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Why do you entertain this boob?
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occasionally we make a breakthrough with this type, and are loath not to try, although he is trying our patience.
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Even if there is one chance in a million that our prayers and efforts may someday release him from this malevolent spirit it will be worth it. I guess it is a small price to pay if he eventually turns. If not, then I want to honestly say that I did all that I knew how to do with what Christ has given me. As to the others: you will have to ask them. After all Jessica is the one that opened this site to him — most of the rest of us had banned him from ours.
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And that’s probably also a reason for many of us. he is, in a sense a legacy of free expression taught to us by the Chatelaine, and we tolerate him for that reason as well.
But he would be wise not to push Chalcedon too far, I suspect, He’s not as tolerant of nonsense as jessica.
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Nothing should stop you or I or anyone else from praying for this poor fool, but he contributes nil to the conversation. It’s a bit like watching three or four men of letters speak while some clown screams “Yahtzee” every few moments just to break the mood.
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There are points when, sadly, that is what it devolves into. At some point in those times, I simply ignore what writes and do not respond. But today, he was thoroughly humiliated and did not return. He lost and went away with his tail between his legs. I am only hopeful that enough sessions like today will have him start doubting what spirit is truly using him as his mouthpiece.
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He likes to boast that these have been his beliefs since before he had a computer. The cure will take time, but if it’s in God’s time, all is good.
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I do pray God gives him a chance to repent of the blasphemies and seek reconciliation. At times I think a visit by Fr. Amorth and his skill in exorcism would be the best thing that could ever happen to him. At other times I think that he is really a troll that is toying with us. Sadly, we cannot take the chance if there is a chance that we can help him find the love of Christ.
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He has until his dying breath. Have you ever read the Homily of the Eleventh Hour by St John Chrysostom? May it sink into his brain. Yet, none of us should think that the 11th hour isn’t seconds away. Nor the final one.
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I have not, Rudy, but from your comment I take it as a treatise on our preparation for our final judgment which cannot be delayed on any account. I too seem to think that time is wasting with Bosco and that he is playing roulette with his soul. How long that will be permitted is in the hands of the Almighty God.
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He likely forgets that we proclaim beliefs that we (or our ancestors) have held since before there were printing presses.
And yes, the blasphemies are what make fear most for his soul.
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Rudy a quick story of some coincidences that occurred after my marathon battle with his demons day before yesterday. I was plagued with unholy and carnal thoughts that would not let me sleep (something I haven’t experienced in decades). I felt a pall of darkness on me and prayed them away. The next day at the supermarket my St. Benedict Crucifix broke and fell and I could not find it. That has been my daily wear for at least 20 years and carries with it a powerful exorcism. Some might say it is a coincidence, and I say it was an attack from the same power that has hold of Bosco.
I have prayed and regained my strength, went back to the supermarket and some good soul turned it in. I now have my sacramental with me and I see spiritual overtones and hope in this. I am not superstitious but neither am I reluctant to give praise to God for helping us try to win another soul to Christ. It is dangerous for us laymen to do what is usually left to a qualified exorcist.
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Agreed. The professionals are professionals for a reason. But a soul deemed worthy by God will do wonders (even raising the dead).
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And we all here have seen miracles of the Faith, and more than once.
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True, my friend. Please keep praying for him. God wants nothing less than for us to save souls from the hands of the Evil One.
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Amen to this!
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I tell you, that I do not understand why God has put him in our midst but always think that there is a reason. And if a reason we must take the task seriously.
I have not been so challenged since I fought spiritual battles with a priest (now laicized after he impregnated a laywoman) and a cistercian priest who may have had the most demonic spirit that I had ever encountered. I had not the weapons or the spiritual strength to have much effect. It taught me much about the danger involved in dealing with such and the disquiet it causes to our souls. But here I am again – and I cannot give up. This time, there will be more prayer and less emotion.
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It also strengthened you, I’d bet. Mine haven’t been as dramatic but they had that effect as well.
And yes, we serve a rational God, not one who runs on emotion, although he surely loves us. Much like us, in fact.
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I have had a peaceful life and can say that I have never had a human enemy that caused me ill. However, I saw evil for the first time and met the enemy. It is not pretty and it frightening to witness. I am glad that I am reminded to continue to pray for both of these men. I used to make it a conscience thing but have since rolled it into my general prayers for the souls of the fallen. But they deserve my personal prayers for them specifically as God did put them in my path and I can only pray that I have learned the lesson that Christ deemed that I should learn. Pray for me NEO and I will for you as well.
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Always, my friend. it’s something we all need.
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Thank you, my friend, we all need God’s strength. It is probably good that we are carrying this out via internet because if my hunch is right, Bosco (Wayne Griffin) would frighten you if you but look in his eyes. Thai was the one thing that stood out before. They looked capable of anything. It is scary.
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I suspect you are correct. At least it wouldn’t surprise me.
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It is always good to keep a dispassionate temperament when dealing with the sorts of people who like to make a racket during a thoughtful discussion. I remember G Sales, who maintained decorum even if we may have disagreed on points. Healthy scholarly debate is always appreciated. I visit many other forums, and it turns into something rather gruesome and ugly. People like Bosco would be considered pikers elsewhere. It speaks well of the group, overall, that he’s about the silliest of the lot. Our cross is, indeed, light, in this case.
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True, and once about every third blue moon, he even makes sense.:-)
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One can hope, and I’m with you but, golly he surely tried to play with the big kids today, and it didn’t go well.
None of us are known for flying off the handle or getting confused, which is his modus operandi and its ineffective here.
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We left no stone unturned today: even his frequent sidebars got answered. I think it shook him and took him off script.
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i do as well. He slipped nothing through, one or more of us answered every one I think.
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Surely some of the sites that you think are extension of the Gospels would have a more satisfying and logical explanation that this.
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Ive had these ideas since befor there were computers.
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Good for you. Now if only you could read and then think about what you read and try to make logical assessments. Its a tall order, I know, but do try.
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Have you thought of reading some decent commentaries to help you actually understand the Bible?
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I had a commentary that god gave me when I was first born again. It served its purpose.
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You could even try believing the Bible.
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It seems not. St Paul says one thing, the one your demon gave you says another. Wake up, Bosco, whatever spirit spoke to you was not of God.
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You take this communion thing and have turned it into a mandatory 7 things. If you want me to comment on 7 sacrements, you have to show me where anyone in the whole bible speaks of 7 sacrements are needed.
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It’s been mandatory sin Jesus himself instituted it, Bosco.
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God told Paul that this ‘communion thing’ was so important that if you took it whilst in an unworthy state you’d go to hell. Now, that does not fit with what you say he told you, that the sacraments have no effect. I will leave Servus and Neo to handle the distractions, and I will keep on with the main issue – which is that you are wrong on the sacraments having no effect.
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Ah yes. Caught you. What I learned many yrs ago is to be aware of people distorting this passage. You have not disappointed me. Ive waited many yrs to hear someone say eat and drink unworthy. I was told I would hear this fallacy. Just so happens we are all unworthy. Are you suggesting that one can go get worthy? This is the plight of the unsaved religious. They read but they don’t see.
Paul say not to eat and drink unworthily. That’s worlds apart frombeing unworthy. I told you it is a hard saying.
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Do read it Bosco, it is St Paul you have ‘caught’, he’s the one who wrote it. Unworthily means the state of being unworthy, so yes, St Paul is saying that it is possible for believers to be unworthy. That, of course, knocks over the whole demon-constructed nonsense you believe – as St Paul meant it to.
Face it Bosco, you are busted, you have nowhere to go except to the Church Jesus founded, to repent your sins and get baptised – Jesus did it, why are you too grand for it?
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Busted, indeed!
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The problem for Bosco is the Bible does not agree with him.
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i know, it must be hard for him, one of the world’s foremost solo scriptura guys!
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It is the Alice in Wonderland version – words mean exactly what I want them to mean – I am infallible.
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Yep, that about sums it up!
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Then we have a disagreement good brother. I say unworthily is an act. Unworthy is a state of being. Good brother gene Scott did a long talk on that. But I only remember this one little thing. I never thought I would have to explain this to anyone, but he said I would run into people saying unworthy. I mean, its not going to send you to hell, but it shows how your religion has distorted salvation.
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Unworthily is the state of being unworthy – that’s what the word means. Because it utterly busts the nonsense you believe, you have to pretend the Bible doesn’t mean what it clearly does mean and what everyone except a few strange Americans who don’t read Greek, has always taken it to mean.
You are busted, but the demon who advises you is determined you will spend eternity in that lake of fire.
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He’ll never admit to it. Pride is truly the most evil of sins, and it’s about the most comical to watch.
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Indeed. A shame, because everyone except Bosco can see it 😄
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We have been made worthy by the Grace of our Lord, Bosco. Just as if we follow him as faithfully as we can we will be saved.
But it’s not a one time event, one must live accordingly.
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Ok, good brother Neo just put our minds at rest.We are now made worthy. So, we don’t have to worry about damnation when we take communion. Well, that settles that,
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If we do our part, Bosco, which you don’t. Read and understand what has been told to you many times here, and join the church.
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This reminds me of the most basic prayer of the Orthodox Church, and it’s most powerful one after “Our Father…” “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Simple, effective, and for those who crow about such things, Biblical.
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Powerful indeed, and very Biblical.
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One of the great put-offs of this weird sham-Christianity which people like Bosco peddle is the utter lack of humility they show to those who have actually endured for their faith. Living in the Balkans for many years, it left me in awe how devoted true believers there were, even after Communism. That should have eradicated Christianity, yet the people forcefully held on. Those here would sell their mother’s souls to maintain creature comforts. When you have a gun pointed at your head, and you recite that prayer, I have a strong hunch you have proven your worth to Christ. God help people if it happens here.
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I agree. I met a few emigres from the Soviet Union that managed to both escape and maintain their faith. They gave me a whole new perspective on “Keeping the Faith”. I’ve got my troubles, as do you, but I’ve never been in that position, and I admire them inordinately.
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Amen to this. There are true athletes for Christ in our midst, not the flabby frauds who puff themselves up for something other than our Savior.
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Stay on course, Bosco. Paul said: ‘. . . eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body’ which is what you are doing when you speak of the Body of Christ as a cracker. You have not the eyes or mind of faith but of the carnal.
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St Paul says precisely the opposite. Do you really want to pit yourself against St Paul? Bosco, you are clearly possessed by a demon – get help – NOW.
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If you want me to believe that the Bible was written for those are already saved then please give me the chapter and verse. If you want to tell me where God is trinitarian then please do likewise.
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Here you go, Bosco. Now show me yours.
The Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Gospel of John 3:5
Confirmation
“Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.”
Acts of the Apostles 8:14-17
The Eucharist
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
Gospel of John 6:51-58
Confession
“Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father who sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,”Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained. ”
Gospel of John 20:21-23
Holy Matrimony
He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
Gospel of Matthew 19:4-6
Holy Orders
“for I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
1 Corinthians 11:23-25
Anointing of the Sick
“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
James 5:14
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Im sick rite now and up all nite sneezing. Ill deal with you later. I spotted holes in you sacs already. I asked…..where does it say we have 7 sacraments to do?
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So a description of the early Church or the commands of Christ our Master and our King are of no consequence.
May God look after you and bring you to health of body and spirit.
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Not enough Bible evidence for you – still no answer.
Try these and look up each of the references:
Baptism. Scripture shows that John’s baptism was a symbol of repentance, but not a sacrament. It did not confer grace. In the Acts it is clear that those who received Christian baptism also received the Holy Spirit, had their sins forgiven and became members of Christ, and thus of the Church. It is the foundational sacrament, the only one Philip thought necessary to confer on the Ethiopian eunuch. Matthew 3:16; Matthew 28:19; Mark 1:8; Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 1:4-5; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 8:36-38; Acts 11:16; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:3-6; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 5:25-26; Col. 2:12; 1 Peter 3:20-21, and many others.
Confirmation. Completes Baptism by a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit and enables the Christian for mission. This was seen at Pentecost with respect to the apostles. In the early Church it was often accompanied by charismatic signs, though these are not intrinsic to the sacrament. Conferred by the laying on of hands. In Acts 19:3-6, especially, it is clear that John’s baptism, Christian baptism and Confirmation are all distinct realities. Also, in Hebrews 6:2 baptizing and laying on of hands are distinguished. Isaiah 44:3; Ezekiel 39:29; Joel 2:28; John 14:16; Acts 2:4; Acts 8:14-17; Acts 19:3-6; Hebrews 6:2.
Eucharist. The Eucharist is visibly bread and wine but is in reality the Body and Blood of Christ. No mere symbols can effect eternal life. And abuse of no mere symbol can be worthy of damnation. In the early centuries the name of the Mass was the breaking of the bread. Yet, when word got out of what the Eucharist really was the Romans accused Christians of sacrificing babies and cannibalism, because they heard they ate human flesh. Matthew 26:26-29; Luke 24:35; Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11:24-27;
Penance. Christ gave authority, the keys, to the apostles to forgive sin, to decide between absolving or retaining guilt. This requires “confession” of sins for this judgment not to be arbitrary, hence the popular name of the sacrament. This authority was passed on to bishops, and from them to priests, with ordination. Matthew 16:19; John 20:21-23; Rev. 1:18.
Anointing of the Sick. Anointing prepares the person for death, and only incidentally may produce physical healing. The salvation and resurrection spoken of in James are in the first place spiritual. James 5:14-15.
Holy Orders. The threefold division of sacred ministers (bishops, priests and deacons) prefigured in the Old Law (high priest, priests, Levites) is clearly revealed in Scripture. Yet, most so-called “bible-believing” Protestant churches do not have them. Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:2-3; 1 Tim. 3:1; 1 Tim. 3:8-9; 1 Tim. 4:14; 1 Tim. 4:16; 1 Tim. 5:17-19; 1 Tim. 5:22.
Matrimony. Marriage is, as St. Paul states, a mystery (mysterion). The Latin word used to translate mysterion is “sacramentum”. The sacraments are mysteries (as Eastern Christians still call them), for one thing is visible and something else is known by faith. By faith, matrimony is a sign of Christ and the Church, as well as a special calling. Mt. 19:10-11; Eph. 5:31-32.
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Way to go, Servus!
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As I said, im sick and trying to go to sleep. I think I took the non drowsey medicine. That’s why I cant fall asleep. Plus I went to work today. I wasn’t ignoring you guys.
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Bosco – today’s post will be devoted to you. Read it.
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Indeed.
May God bless your household and all within it.
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matrimony is a sign of Christ and the Church,
Er eh, isn’t the sign of the CC a celibate clergy? By the way, which is causing nothing but trouble. Its a scam. Aint none of em celibate.
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No the celibate clergy is a discipline that at times is overlooked as when married priests from other denominations join the Catholic Faith. But that the Church is the Bride of Christ becomes a sign for what matrimony for us men and women should mean. Christ gave His life for His Church and the Church spreads the Love of Christ to its members and brings forth an abundance of spiritual children.
You are not very good with symbolism are you, Bosco? Only with slander and blasphemy are you adept.
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that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
They were water baptized, but haven’t received the holy spirit. What do you think receiving the holy spirit is? Cathols say water baptism does it all. Scripture says different.
For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
What is Jesus called? He is called the Word of God. His flesh and blood are the Words of god.Good brother Hitler took catholic communion, so did good brother Goebbles, and good brother hoess, and good brother Himmler and good brother Heydrich.
,”Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven
There he goes again giving people the holy spirit. Then he gave them power to forgive sins, which were already forgiven. One has to have power from on high. Someone who has the holy spirit doesn’t wonder if they are saved. The unsaved wonder if they are saved.
This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
Do it in rememberance. the Passover is in rememberance. It has no power to save.
“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick
How many now have the faith to heal the sick.? Someone does. I met one, a pastor at calvary in sepulvida calif. If you all can go around healing the sick, be my guest. If the Holy Father cant heal the sick, his underlings probably cant either.
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We Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit as Christ commanded and is different because of this than is the Baptism of John the Baptist. We receive the Holy Spirit and thereby Christ commanded us to do this.
Why didn’t Christ say you must eat my words like flesh and drink my words as blood? He is quite clear and if He meant something different why didn’t He stop those who stopped following Him and why didn’t He explain it to the Apostles? He asked them if they too were going to leave Him. He knew exactly what He was saying and meant what He said.
Yes, they received the Holy Spirit in a special way that had not been done since the creation of Adam. The important part you ignore; that they can forgive and bind men in their sin.
Yes the reference is to the Memorial Sacrifice which all present understood as they were Jews. The fact that they were to pour and handle blood also was understood by any Jew that only a Priest had the ability to do this. Thereby, He instituted a Perpetual Sacrifice and a New Priesthood of the New Covenant.
Do you think that healing is only the healing of the Body or also healing of the spirit. That this sacrament has effected both you might take notice of it. Though you hate stories of miracles as you seem to have a real disdain for the miracles that God performs within His Church and especially at the hands of His designated Ministers.
You distort all that you read and create a new gospel fit for you alone.
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The apostles went out healing the bodies and casting out demons. Why doesn’t the Holy Father go heal some paraplegics and terminally ill cancer patients? After all, hes a successor to Peter. he cant. Some Holy Father.
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Holy Orders. The threefold division of sacred ministers (bishops, priests and deacons) prefigured in the Old Law (high priest, priests, Levites) is clearly revealed in Scripture. Yet, most so-called “bible-believing” Protestant churches do not have them
That’s rite. Prot churches are filled with the unsaved also. But they don’t go out for the costumed holyman routine. People are people. But the old test priesthood is gone. haven’t you heard/
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I cannot help what other Churches have and have not. I am here to speak to you regarding the Church for which you have great hatred and disdain. We have them.
Before you speak of costumed holy men you ought to learn something about what these vestments are for and what they symbolize: see the following from my booklet on the Mass.
Vestments are also a sign of the holy office of the priest and ultimately the Holiness of God. It was God Who established the priesthood of Aaron and Who commanded Aaron concerning vestments to be worn when entering the Holy of holies within the Temple. Likewise, the Church recognizes the significance of special liturgical clothing when its priests administer the sacraments of their office. We will now go into the significance of some of the vestments.
The amice (not always worn anymore) is a piece of white linen that covers the priest’s shoulders. The vesting prayer that was traditionally used was, “Place, O Lord, on my head the helmet of salvation, that I may overcome the assaults of the devil.” When putting it on, the priest would let the amice rest on his head for a moment before placing it on his shoulders.
The alb is a white tunic which covers the entire body not unlike the tunics that were used by the Jewish priests.63 The priest’s vesting prayer was “Purify me, O Lord, from all stain and cleanse my heart, that washed in the Blood of the Lamb, I may enjoy eternal delights.”
The cincture is the cord which fastens the alb at the waist. Again, you should note that this was also one of the vestments of the Jewish priest. The vesting prayer: “Gird me, O Lord, with the cincture of purity, and quench in my heart the fire of concupiscence, that the virtue of continence and chastity may remain in me.”
The stole is the long silk band that rests around the neck and was crossed over the breast of the priest (crossing not necessary now) but worn without crossing by the bishops. It is the most valued of all the vestments because it is the symbol of the authority of the Church. In this functional regard, the stole resembles the ‘rational of justice’ worn by the high priests in the Old Testament though in look and design the ‘rational’ was probably more like a square vestment worn over the breast and embroidered with 12 stones (for the 12 tribes of Israel). It was attached to the ‘ephod’ which resembled the pallium (white wool shoulder cloth) worn by the Pope and the archbishops. The ephod and the pallium also designated the wearer’s authority and his right to the teaching office. The vesting prayer for the stole was: “Restore to me, O Lord, the state of immortality which was lost to me by my first parents, and although unworthy to approach Thy sacred mysteries, grant me nevertheless eternal joy.” It is worn only during priestly ministry, though the Pope may wear it at any time.
The uppermost vestment is the chasuble. The vesting prayer was, “O Lord, Who hast said, ‘My yoke is sweet and my burden light,’ grant that I may carry it so as to obtain Thy grace.”
The Mass is intentionally adorned with splendor and it should rightly be so. After all, is there anything or anyone to whom we should give more glory? Remember what Judas said when Mary washed the feet of Jesus with expensive spikenard ointment: “Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence and given to the poor?” Christ answered: “Let her be that she may keep it for the day of my burial. For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.” 64 The Church then rightly offers to God the most precious fruits of man’s labor; an outward symbol of what should be our inner disposition.
63 Cf. Exodus 28 and Leviticus 8 64 John 12:5-8.
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Er eh, you forgot to mention that the priests of god were Levites. No others can be priests.
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God fulfilled the priesthood and the prophecy of Malachi at the Last Supper: that the gentiles would offer a ‘clean’ (that is an unbloody sacrifice) oblation from the rising of the sun until its setting. That is that this sacrifice will be everywhere and at all times – which it is.
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But I did enjoy reading about the vestments you posted. But now the veil has been rent, and we don’t need human priests. For we have a high priest after the order of melchisedek.
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Christ seemed to think so, otherwise He would not have made them priests. He thought it right and just to take the keys from Caiaphas and give them to Cephas as well. The Apostles seemed to agree with Christ and therefore had priests, presbyters and deacons in their new Church. Seems you dislike what Christ did and the Apostles did.
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Neo, this is a wonderful post. This reminds me to re-read the inspirational book. I wonder why she was never beatified, her views were not orthodox I gather. I found her writings very uplifting but maybe I’m not orthodox either. I thought I was though. Gosh it gets confusing sorting everything out. Anyway, excellent post.
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Thanks, Zeke, nice to be back on topic. 🙂
She is venerated in the Anglican and Lutheran churches, apparently she was a bit to much of a proto-Lutheran for the RCC. She tried, but no, she is not overly orthodox.
I enjoy her views a lot, they’ve had much influence on me.
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Her book is now beside now and I can hardly wait to crack open the cover! I thank you again for reminding me of her book.
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No problem. you reminded me yesterday that I was part way through it. 🙂
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Probably not beatified because there is not much known about her except that she was a mystic of the 14th century and probably a nun. The New Advent website has a good bit to say about her: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08557a.htm
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There is in fact not much known, not even surely a nun, but possibly an Anchoress. But she did have a fair connection with the church, or at Least St. Julian’s in Norwich where her cell was. It also the the first book by a woman published in English, by the way.
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In such a case where all we have are her writings to go on and have no recourse to question her on questionable or rather rather mystical matters it becomes impossible. However that does not mean that she is not a saint – only that we cannot know for certain. Also, of course, until quite recently miracles had to be associated with the candidate for sainthood. I know of none but that doesn’t mean that there have not been any.
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I can easily see the difficulty, I had never thought of the connection with catherine of siena though, but then I’m not overly well read. 🙂
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Now she was definitely a mover and shaker of things. She turned over the apple cart and the Pope obeyed her. 🙂
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And that is certainly true. 🙂
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God sent her to us when the Church needed her the most. Thanks be to God. 🙂
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Amen.
I seem to have trouble on this laptop coordinating shift and a letter. Wierd.:-)
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And I have a problem when my computer corrects my mistypings into something entirely different that is undecipherable. 🙂
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Glad I have company! 😉
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Good summary link, i think, by the way.
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Thank you for the link, I’ve read it with great interest. A remarkable woman, I think. I do genealogy work and granted the stories I explore do not go back so far in time, but I have come to accept that family legends are based on some important truth even if the details have been either embellished or lost. I apply the same reasoning here about the mysterious mystic, Julian of Norwich.
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I am happy to have done so and also happy that you have found a good spiritual read by her.
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Also reading your pdf on the Mass. You did a very good job (footnotes and all, I like that) and already have answered many of my questions (pertaining to the Eucharistic prayers, Novus Ordo/Tridentine Mass). I’ve only read through chapter one, I’m a slow reader, but I’m hooked and will work my way through it (not because it is laborious but I am a careful reader, that’s what I mean, making sure I understand what I am reading). Much appreciated.
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Thank you Zeke. I’m happy if it gives you some insight into what is contained in the Catholic Mass.
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No problem, it’s a bit difficult to read but worthwhile.
Our family histories do go back about that far, but we know little beyond names, roaming the Norwegian woods, good peasant stock we are.:-)
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I suspect we all stem from peasant stock, if we’re honest that is. 🙂
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In our culture, I’m pretty sure of it. 🙂
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Oops sorry to step on your comment, SF. Busy day, and got careless.
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No problem at all. A good comment as well.
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Thanks.
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I see that if you can catch me in error, you can satisfy yourselfs that everything I say is wrong. All the comment about the catholic religion are all invalid. The hurt that you feel when I blast the CC has spilled over.You want to pay me back. I don’t mean to hurt. I want you to think.
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The only hurt I feel from your comments, Bosco, is the fear of you going to Hell, and we can’t seem to help you avoid it.
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Dittos, my friend. Bosco is in desperate need of our concern and our prayers. I will not be satisfied until the beast that holds him has loosed his grip. We must always be sure to pray for Bosco’s soul.
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Yes, we must.
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I was talking to the cathols, good brother Neo. Do you have some soft spot for that snake pit? Its dogma says you are anathema. These cathols smile in your face, because they are polite people, unlike me. But their religion tells them you are going to hell unles you join them.
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It is not you who angers us. We have righteous and holy anger with the spirit that has his claws in you. For you, we have love and send to God many prayers. We pray that you repent for your blasphemies and your insults to that which is holy to all Christians. So understand the anger and also understand the love of your soul which God made for eternal happiness with Him. Repent and find rest in the bosom of Christ.
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This is Bosco’s sad attempt at projection. Cheap rhetorical device. He should know better than that.
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But he, and the other like him, never do.
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It is and I hoped I turned him on him in a positive and redemptive manner. We shall see.
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Good brother Rudy, ive seen your kind befor. Where I come from, you are nothing but chewing gum.
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Far, far from it Bosco. Read my post today (Wednesday), it explains why we are concerned about you and why we discuss these matters. There can be very little doubt that the Evil One is using you for his work; I urge you to seek help from a qualified exorcist. God alone knows how you acquired this demon, and God alone can cast it out.
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Thanks as always for your concern.
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I am concerned for you Bosco. The post will be up in just over an hour. Read it carefully. Satan is real, you know this, as I do, and I am not convinced that the spirit who spoke to you was who he claimed to be – and I mean that most seriously.
I hope your meds are now OK and you slept well.
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Glad to hear you found your little graven image. You wouldn’t want to lose the power to do what ever you said it did….I forgot the special power it had. Im a little woozy now.
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It is a protection against Satan, Bosco, and if you had any sense, you’d think about getting some – and quick.
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Ill go online and see where the CC stores sell these Satan Repellants. Hope they don’t cost too much. I just spent 300 dollars on my lousy car.
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Do you believe in the reality of Satan, Bosco? If you do, would it not be wise to seek protection?
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I found one for $1.99 US. Yes. that is a bargain at any price.
Devil be gone.
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I see your spirit and challenge with the Holy Spirit.
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