I am a great fan of Chalcedon’s idea of AATW as a kind of lay apostolate but, in truth, in many ways, it always has been. This has always been a place where people, but especially strong willed men have felt free to discuss Christianity. And if you read through our archives, you’ll find that it is different than what you’ll find in church.
Servus Fidelis in one of his very apt comments (here) said:
Catholics, just don’t do Protestantism very well, and though we now have multitudes of clubs and activities for the laymen to get involved, clearly a small number are interested in the least at joining. Those who do try to join everything. They are a small core of folk that develop and are top-heavy in the over 50 crowd. Hard to get the young ones to join anything voluntarily and even more unusual that they are truly enthusiastic.
I would add that most of us Protestants don’t do Protestantism very well either, we have all the same problems. Why is that? I think there are several reasons.
Someplace I read that Jesus preached to women and children but, he tested men. Men are competitive creatures, we are quite willing to fight for our beliefs, even as Jacob wrestled with God himself. I suspect many of the older guys here relate quite well to that phrase, I surely do. We like to win, or at worst lose honorably. We do it here, forcefully, and yet without rancor. Usually we find that we mostly believe the same thing in different words, anyway.
But, something else I’ve noticed about almost all of us is that we are not all that enthused with our church’s physical worship experience. I am certainly amongst them. Frankly, I find little in my worship service that brings me in, other than certain things, like the Eucharist, that are necessary to my faith. But even this, I find in a degraded state, in the last few years.
Could it be that over the centuries, our churches have become the province of women, yes, some of our denominations restrict the ministry to men but, behind the scenes almost all is done by women, and the church has become a reflection of that. Sort of a softer, gentler Christianity. In an article on Church for Men it said
Every Sunday, without even realizing it, we send subtle signals to guys: you are in feminine territory.
The signals start in Sunday school. Think of the pictures of Jesus you saw as a child. Didn’t they suggest a tender, sweet man in a shining white dress? As our boys grow up, whom will they choose as a role model: gentle Jesus, meek and mild, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, the action hero? The irony here is that the real Jesus is the ultimate hero, bold and courageous as any man alive, but we’ve turned him into a wimp.
There are signals in the sanctuary. Let’s say a common working stiff named Nick visits your church. What’s the first thing Nick sees? Fresh flowers on the altar. Soft, cushiony pews with boxes of Kleenex underneath. Neutral carpet abutting lavender walls, adorned with quilted banners (or worse: Thomas Kinkade paintings). Honestly, how do we expect Nick to connect with God in a space that feels so feminine?
Nick looks around at the men. Some are obviously there against their will, dragged by a wife or mother. Others are softies. Research finds that men who are interested in Christianity are less masculine than average; seminarians also exhibit more feminine characteristics than the typical male. Even the vocabulary of churchgoing men is softer. Christian men use terms such as precious, share, and relationship, words you’d never hear on the lips of a typical man.
and
The signals keep coming during the service. Nick may be asked to hold hands with his neighbor. He may be asked to sing a love song to Christ, such as, “Lord, You’re Beautiful,” or “Jesus, I am so in love with You.” Someone may weep. Then Nick will have his male attention span put to the test by a monologue sermon. When this torture test is finally over, Nick is invited to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Let’s spend a moment on that last one: a personal relationship with Jesus. That phrase never appears in the Bible. Yet in the past 50 years it’s become the number one way the evangelical church describes the Christian walk. It’s turned the gospel into a puzzle for men, because most guys don’t think in terms of relationships. Let’s say Lenny approaches Nick and says, “Nick, would you like to have a personal relationship with me?” Yuck! Men don’t talk or think like this, yet we’ve wrapped the gospel in this man-repellent package.
I think most of us guys see Jesus more as a guy who we would like to sit down and have a whisky and a cigar (or a beer) with and figure it out. Because, He was a real man, and one heck of a leader, who has many lessons to teach us. Anybody who thinks St. Peter thought about singing “Shine, Jesus, Shine” is simply delusional, although I can see him chiming in on a chorus of “Onward, Christian Soldiers”. Can’t you?
Somebody said that church is for ‘little old ladies, of both genders”. But that drives away the forceful men, as well as the young ones. That doesn’t leave much for us does it?
I suspect we’ll continue this discussion after the holidays.
Yes Protestant church is very sterile and reserved. But if you have a minister that calls all the children down front for a little sermon, that is delightful. We don’t have pictures or statues to stare at, Christ on the cross, but stained windows OK. Not much to distract you except not going overtime so can make it home for 1 PM football games.
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There’s truth in that, Carl, an that is the sort of sanctuary I prefer but, that’s mostly an externality, we’re not giving much in any of our churches, that appeals to the guys that watch (or play for that matter) football.
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Yes, right. The old guard Presbyterians, Methodist, Baptists,Congregationalist, and Lutherans have almost evaporated in Miami and well as the old European ethnics. I think it’s more of a population shift immigration Caribbean, Central and South America. Catholics probably grown but Irish priests no longer around replaced by Hispanic, Haitian. J Wit, 7th Day, Mormons growing and independent store front churches sprouting up everywhere.
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As all know, I have little beef with the Roman Church, although I do have some with the way some of it priest teach it, no different than with my own church, though. I’m just not a fan of wussified Christianity, doesn’t ring true to me.
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As Rush would say, ‘right on, right on, right on.’ The feminization of the Church is probably the single most important reason that religion is no longer the domain of men and thereby, not a family supported religion. It is all about feelings and men don’t do soft and mushy very well unless they are being led into the arena of the modern sexless realm of confused gender identity. When women run a Church or anything else, men tend to let them do it just as they have done for many years when in came to rearing children.
Sadly, the masculine role of Christ, the spirit of duty, silent suffering, stoic adherence to principle (especially when it is hard and so much easier to simply submit) is waning and real men (like the saints of old) are now codified into a bunch of Adonis’s. Give me a Crusader, or a man who is willing to stand against the tide, like St. Athanasius, an Angel with a sword like St. Michael any day – or a St. Nicholas who would punch Arius in the face for denying Christ’s divinity. That is the manly service and the attitude we men look up to and it is stuff, as you rightly say, of heroes worth following. We want leaders to follow not a bunch of hugs to make us feel better.
It is a feminine Church today that looks at equality in a way that men and women never did in the past: women in the armed forces, girls serving at the altar, women as priestesses and most of our action movies now have women beating the stuffing out of men and saving the men from every disaster and bully that is thrown their way. What is going on? Satan has managed to make men irrelevant and has managed to make men as masculine as feminine as one wants to imagine: they are the ever adaptable sex that has no limitations and no true identity. To look at a woman as a nurturer or a mom is to be sexist. To view a man as a protector, provider and leader of the household is to be a misogynist or a neanderthal.
I think you hit at the heart of Satan’s greatest conquest: the destruction of the real, nuclear family with equally important and complimentary roles. Trying to regain this again will require some real diligence and the action of some real men who will lead us from this wilderness we are now in.
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This was the first thing that went through my mind as a topic when C. mentioned the lay apostolates to me a bit back. I think you have it pretty much correct, if Satan can destroy the men, or denigrate their influence, the rest is ready. He is a worthy goal for the men, and I mean men among us. It’s an uphill fight, but not quite Thermopylae yet.
But its definitely time to “Saddle up”
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It’s definitely going to be hard as society has become a genderless landscape where we are all reduced to hermaphrodites. Do we start in the Church, the workplace, the political realm, the media, education or in the family. I think that it must be done in the family first for the future of world which means all of the above must be stood up for by the real men who are alienated from all of these arenas. We must somehow have a cultural counter-revolution that will seize this amoral, asexual dragon by the throat and slay it.
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In a lot of ways, I think the only way it can be done, is to simply live as we talk, and teach our sons (literal and figurative) to do likewise. Men, and those who aspire to be, will follow leaders, as we did. We, here are lucky, we have some prime examples to emulate, and they are willing to help as well. No easy answers though, pagan Rome hasn’t returned but neo-pagan London, New York, and Hollywood are here. It’s time to start over.
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Indeed so, NEO. I think of how the media, the politicians, the priests, the educators want to reduce everyone into a pack of nurturing social workers. That might be an apostolate for some but it is just one of many apostolates people are called to. One only has to look at how Obama wants to turn our armed forces into a brigade of people to carry out his brand of social justice; or the Pope for that matter who wants to sissify the Swiss Guard. Oy vey!
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And that, my friend, is the secular relativist dream, no leaders who think for themselves, simply the hive. If we allow it, we likely deserve it.
Christianity, while it has never really been a religion of the sword, has always known that the sword is a useful implement, and has had the men to wield them. Boys and young men need heroes, we all did, we just need to present the right sort, I think.
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There always have been good men to emulate though today they are likely to be ridiculed and shamed. Sadly, most of the real men have chosen their field of study and/or service thinking that this was sufficient and that the other realms would be populated by men of equal honor and dedication. Sadly, that is not the case. We now must somehow be involved in everything and that is not an easy thing to do for any man (or woman for that matter). 🙂
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Very true. All we can do is to live our lives consonant with our beliefs, and be an example. It’s been centuries coming and is not going to be cured in our lifetimes either. The ultimate long-term mission.
Yes, women play a huge role in this, and one of the most encouraging parts of the struggle is the rise of outspoken, conservative women, in the public sphere. We poor guys would never manage it on our own.
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I know. In fact men who try to teach the faith within the Church atmosphere today find that the air is rather toxic. They are likely to be summarily dismissed or fired should they work for the Church. I know; I have been let go from a number of voluntary teaching positions. Too orthodox and the pastor will black list you.
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Truth, well spoken. I think we’ve all seen it. A friend of mine says that the church needs to be reformed by the laity about every 500 hundred years. I think she’s right.
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That may well be true. To succeed however requires that men take the lead in this counter-revolution to free the Church from the namby-pambys and the ‘everything is beautiful’ crowd. I pray that we find the resolve to do so.
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That is true, and it’s a challenge.
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My church does this and Oh my church does that, and Oh my church does this and Oh my church does that and this.
That’s what you get for belonging to some church, Haha
Good news is…Jesus is still at the door knocking..
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Why don’t you just answer the door then?
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He did but what got was a soul invasion of a different kind.
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Indeed!
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I am Jehova, I am Mormon, I am Seventh Day, I am Lutheran, I am Cathol, I am Baptist, I am Methodist, I am orthodox.
All yall are gonna wake up in hell if you don’t know Jesus.
Merry Christmas everybody.
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What you miss here, Bosco is that we are the ones that know Jesus, through his church, that he founded. You, on the other hand, don’t. And if you continue to not listen, will be judged as you judge.
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What do you mean “We” Arent you a Lutheran or some nonsense? You aren’t the church Christ founded……the gat danged idol bowing catholic church is the church that Christ founded. Ask one of them. They will tell you that your rabble are invalid and doomed.
Have a nice day
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Obviously you don’t know the definition of catholic my friend, and I’ve never seen an idol in any of our churches, only statues of the great men and women who have gone before us, to remind us of the heroes of the faith.
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14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
I know what catholic means. it means “Universal”…Every human soul must be subject to the Pontif at Rome. (or they will burn you at the stake)
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No Bosco, Rome doesn’t own the term. Lutherans profess the Catholic faith, so do Anglicans, and others as well. In the exact same words, often.
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Lets see what Quiav the Great says about that
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Birds of a feather…
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Wait a min…aren’t Lutherans followers of that damnable fellow martin Luther? And you have the gall to call yourselfs members of the catholic faith? What a world, what a world.
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No Bosco, we follow the Christ, who was crucified, and rose again.
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Why do you call yourselfs Lutherans? Why don’t you call yourselfs Christians?
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Because the Rev. Dr. Luther was a good teacher and priest who reformed our faith, we do call ourselves Christians, and unlike you, we are.
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But you said you conform to the catholic faith, and even use the same terms. Why would your leader need to reform the church Christ founded? After all, the Holy Ghost keeps it from error.
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Shortly thereafter Rome reformed as well.
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For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
25 When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
Seems that god has a big problem with graven images. he destroyed Israel because of them. But oh no, the idolatrous hell bound CC tell us that god commanded us to make them and to bow down befor them.
Who be on the Lords side? Either one believes the Lord, or one believes what man says. Make your choice.
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For the New Year, you’re no longer St. Bisto, rather the Bowing Bosco or BB for short.
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Call me what you like…..just don’t call me late for dinner.
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A most interesting post, Neo, for which many thanks – and not least because there would have been nothing here today otherwise! You raise very urgent issues. Our society is so obsessed with the issue of ‘equality’ for women that it forgets men – and that is at best. At worst, it indulges in a not very subtle denigration of men, presumably in the hope that men will in some way become more satisfactory from the point of view of women. That seems not to be happening. Instead, men are simply retreating into their caves – a development which one would not need to be a rocket scientist to have predicted.
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Glad to help.
It has, indeed, and for the most part we stood around and watched as it did. For us in America is is informative to watch TV show from the 60s and 70s and compare the male characters in them with the current ones. John Wayne would not be pleased at how men are depicted now. And yet, as we know here, men exist, but won’t for long, if we continue to hide.
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Men are pigs.
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An excellent post, and one which raises an interesting question. Men have been men these many centuries, and will carry on being men; those who want otherwise will be disappointed.
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That is most decidedly true, I think most of us were taught long ago, we will stand for what we believe, come what may. That may be history’s greatest lesson, and has always proved true.
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Good brother Neo said that the church that changes not, changed after good brother Luther asked it nicely to change. Its my understanding that the Holy Father wanted good brother Luthers head on a plate.
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The church (all of them) changes, the faith never changes.
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Shortly thereafter Rome reformed as well.
I think that is how good brother Neo phrased it.
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Ill tell you how Rome reformed. It reformed by hiring good brother Loyola, to stamp out this Reformation.
Am I all alone in the history dept?
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In the tract inspired anti-Catholic section of propaganda, likely you are.
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Jack Chicks’ satanic spirit lives in the form of a clown using the name of a beloved Roman Catholic saint. Amusing.
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Whats amusing is that you don’t deny the allegations. You just attack the messenger.
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Little point, they were disproved at least a century ago. The ground is overworked.
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The allegations are laughable, Bosco. Your message is one of perversion and idiocy. It’s hard to take Kinko the Clown seriously.
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It reformed by decreeing all Protestants heretics. Council of Trent.
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That’s rite. Anyone who doesn’t kiss the Popes ring and Jupiters foot is a heretic.
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On “Assumption Day” August 15, 1534, Íñigo and the other six met in the crypt of the Chapel of St. Denis, at Montmartre in Paris and founded the Company of Jesus – “to attack the enemies of the church by any and all means, or to go without questioning wherever the General of the Order might direct”.
But this was not the only oath, nor ritual. For in this first most secret ceremony of the founding the Jesuits, is the origin of the same secret ceremony of the Freemasons, dating back to the days of the Osiris cult. Here, in the crypt, each initiate “died” to their old selves, pledging absolute and unquestioning loyalty to the Espirit De Corps, their absolute undying loyalty to Ignatius as the “illuminated one”. Thus was born the strongest morale code of any organization in the history of civilization – an Espirit De Corps rarely broken during its many hundreds of years of existence.
After the ceremony, one group including Loyola headed north to the Netherlands to plan their attemped assassination of the Emperor, while another group with poison provided from the infamous book of Borja headed to Rome and the destiny of Giulio de’ Medici (Pope Clement VII).
Loyola was forced to remain in Rome and play diplomat and politician, offering concessions and conditions such as the new order being based in Rome and not Venice, in ensuring a strict rule to ensure compliance and clear limits on the power of this soon to be unleashed “power”. In the end after three long and difficult years, the concessions were sufficient for Pope Paul to feel safe in issuing his Papal Bull.
Pope Paul III confirmed the order through the bull Regimini militantis (September 27, 1540), but limited the number of its members to sixty. This limit severely hampered the role of the Jesuits and made their purpose as the most powerful Police force ever conceived, in theory only. However, thanks to patience and further negotiation, this limitation on numbers was removed through the bull Injunctum nobis on March 14, 1543.
In another significant victory for the early formation of the Jesuits, Pope Paul III issued a bull in 1545 permitting them to preach, hear confession, dispense the sacraments and say mass without having to refer to a bishop- effectively placing them outside the control of the regional clergy.
Furthermore, while technically monks, the Constitution of Loyola was unique in that it exempted priests from the cloisted rule (i.e. living in monasteries). Instead, Jesuit monks were to live “in the world”.
In 1546, Pope Paul III appointed the Jesuits to their first political mission, appointing Lainez and Salmeron as his official representatives at the Council of Trent as Pontifical Theologians. Lainez with the assistance of Cardinal Monroe successfully defeated all but one minor agenda item for reform of the Catholic Church and ensured the power of the Pope remained unchallenged.
http://one-evil.org/content/people_16c_loyola.html
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here is what a catholic organization says about Loyola;
The Order undertook to win back to the Roman obedience those areas that had recently become Protestant. Ignatius counselled his Jesuits (technically neither monks nor friars, but priests regular) to proceed with charity and moderation, “without hard words or contempt for people’s errors.” He died suddenly on 31 July 1556.
prime example of trying to cover up its bloody history. Oh, but the catholic church is led by the Holy Spirit. Funny, I didn’t know the HS was a liar.
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Two contributions from the Eastern Orthodox corner:
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/42390.htm
http://community.artofmanliness.com/group/orthodoxchristianmen
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Some very good stuff there, Rudy. I’m sure many of us can relate to what they are saying. I surely do.
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Finding bonds of commonality is a truly wonderful thing.
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Men and Church
VATICAN CITY (RNS) One of the largest Franciscan religious orders, founded on the humble teachings of St. Francis of Assisi more than 800 years ago, announced it is on the brink of bankruptcy after admitting some of its monks embezzled funds from its accounts.
The Italian news magazine Panorama on Friday (Dec. 19) reported that tens of millions of dollars were missing from the Order of Friars Minor and had been invested in offshore companies.
Panorama also claimed Swiss prosecutors had seized Franciscan accounts in Switzerland because the account holders had allegedly invested in illegal operations that could include arms and drug trafficking
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/19/order-of-friars-minior-fraud_n_6355532.html
Ive been saying this for years. Cathol clergy have diplomatic immunity. they buy the arms in the US, take them to the mid east, trade them for drugs, take the drugs to America and sell them, then buy more arms. the profit is unbelievable, and the Vatican lives for it.
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Bosco, your line, of smearing everyone for the crimes of a few, is one pioneered in American ‘yellow press’ journalism. It is not a sign you are born again.
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Everytime the clergy are exposed for criminal activity, you say its just a few. Search my post records and see how many times ive said that the Vatican and its clergy run drugs and guns. If I know it Bergoglio knows it. The guns for drug trade is as big as oil sales. Do you seriously think Bergoglio doesn’t know about it? Come on, get a grip. He comes from the land of cocaine. The arms trade is the most lucrative business around. The Vatican is the main player.Those old guys in those fancy robes with their hands folded in prayer are drug and gun runners. They are top heavy in cash. How do you think they live so lavishly? Do you think Obama doesn’t know about it? The arms manufacturers run the damn country.
Oh, its just a few priests.
You say that everytime. It takes a lot of guys to sell the drugs and move the guns thru the world. Not just 2 lone wolfs. Tell me, how do you think I knew about it? Ive been saying this since you’ve known me. Money. That’s what its all about. Money and living large. That’s all the clergy is about. televangels too. They live better than kings. The CC is the headquarters of the largest crime syndicate the earth has ever known. It has been a crime syndicate from the start, all the way till now. Its a liar and will always be a liar. It has its flock thinking a cracker will send you to heaven. The religion is just a front. Its a cover story for the human trafficking business. Money isn’t enough. Human souls is what the CC deals in. They provide babies for priest parties. I don’t even want to talk about what they do to the children. I cant think about it, it makes me vomit.
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Again, you do that thing which destroys any point you are trying to make.
You insist it is some entity called ‘the Vatican’ which directs all the bad things, despite offering zero evidence; of course you can’t, because there is none.
Yes, some individuals do criminal acts, and this is bad and should be punished. Are there occasions other people try to cover it up – yes, as there is in every quarter of life.
Money, you say. Poor Bosco, do you know what the average priest makes?
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Not every single priest is involved in the crime spree. The ones who are….it doesn’t matter what their base pay is. Look at senators and congressmen. They have a set pay, but they spend millions to get into a office that pays 50,000 a yr. Its the under the cover graft they get that makes it worth while. Look at how the bishops live here in the US. its been a sore spot for idolatrous cathols. They see how the clergy lives in splendor, on their meger salaries. Parties every nite. Million dollar mansions. Tell the faithful about the priests small pay. I don’t want to hear it.
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I think part of your difficulty is the tendency to muddled thinking. Yes, some bishops do seem to live grand lifestyles, and some priests are crooks; that does not mean all bishops and priests fall into those categories.
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Vatican in the heart of mafia land. The stock in trade of the CC is cash and gold. Vatican bank has been busted for mafia drug money laundering. Oh, but the Holy Father didn’t know anything about it. The Holy See was busy in prayer, they had no idea. Only one bad person was responsible. What a shame. The Vatican , which is the CC, Is a criminal enterprise. Any good its schools and charities do is despite the Vatican. Honorable honest god fearing people run the charities and schools. Hey, don’t get me wrong, I wish I had a pile of that drug money. If I was part of the Vatican id be stuffing my pockets for sure. No jive.
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If I were saying I was ‘saved’, I should be be ashamed to reveal such a mess of prejudice. you have zero evidence, so fall back on lazy, racist, prejudices; Bosco, whoever you met, it is not the Spirit of Truth.
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Thanks.
That is a very interesting, and true I think comparison.
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Ah Quiav the Great. As always, a breath of fresh air. Gods speed to you my good brother.
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You are the only person in here that I agree with. Oh the pain…oh the pain.
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Great observations!
I have noticed for sometime that the songs we sing in the Protestant church are extremely feminine and often make me want to vomit. The lyrics are touchy-feely, Jesus is my boyfriend, and lets make out with Jesus themed. I look around and see that the women love it and the men are simply tolerating it.
So i definitely see that in the songs. I hadn’t thought about the entire thing until this post.
Here is my tongue in cheek idea on How To Get More Men Into Church…The Easy Way. Caution: We might not find support for this idea with the Early Church Fathers
http://notforitchingears.com/2014/04/21/how-to-get-more-men-into-your-church-service-the-easy-way/
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If Christ is lifted up, people will come. Try that for a change. First, one needs to get saved befor one can lift up Christ.
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It’s a joke, Bosco!
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That was a joke? keep your day job. Heres a joke;….
A catholic priest and a homosexual and a pedophile walk into a bar.
He orderd a beer.
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OK, you got laugh out of me, several in fact. I do think that might be a bit far though. 🙂
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The truly sad part about that joke is that someone may try it!
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True enough, and it’s very sad. Butts in the pews isn’t everything.
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