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Archbishop Justin, Christianity, Christians, controversy, history, Iraq, Iraqi Christians, Justin Welby
The Archbishop of Canterbury has issued a moving statement, which covers not only the crisis in Iraq, but links it up to outrages elsewhere:
“With the world’s attention on the plight of those in Iraq, we must not forget that this is part of an evil pattern around the world where Christians and other minorities are being killed and persecuted for their faith. Only this week I received an email from a friend in Northern Nigeria about an appalling attack on a village, where Christians were killed because of their faith in Jesus Christ. Such horrific stories have become depressingly familiar in countries around the world, including Syria, South Sudan and the Central African Republic.”
He is right, and as Dr Thompson points out in the Spectator (in one of the many good pieces we have had from him there since he was released from durance vile at the Telegraph) it:
is both brave and perfectly judged. What an outstanding representative of English Christianity he is turning out to be – in sorry contrast to his predecessor.
But why the final clause? Dr Thompson is not alone here, and in mentioning this, a wider phenomenon emerges, that of adding our own agenda to a cause.
I can understand the urge to point out that neither Mr Obama nor Mr Cameron have drawn attention to the pattern which Archbishop Justin does, just as I can understand the urge of others to point up the double-standard whereby some on the left cry havoc about Gaza and say nothing on Iraq. The ‘Stop the War coalition’ appears to be misnamed, it is only certain wars which attract its disapprobation. But tempting as all this is, is it helpful? As with those who bring into their comments on this their agenda on Mr Obama – and here I may be alone – I find something jarring. Hypocrisy on the left was best summed up by Disraeli, who said that what he objected to was not so much Gladstone’s habit of playing the ace of trumps from his sleeve, but the claim that the Almighty had put it there; I doubt any conservative arguing with a liberal has not felt the same.
It was the plight of the Christians in Mosul which first drew many of us to the unfolding disaster there, and there was more than irritation felt as the media ignored it and went on about the more fashionable cause of Gaza. For those whose trousers are not nailed to either polarity of that conflict, there was the added piquancy of the fact that a media focussing on the deaths of children, said nothing about Arab children dying on the road from Mosul. These things, like the tendency of Archbishop Rowan to be crystal clear on the rather simplistic old socialist economic beliefs he appears to hold, and to seem to be as clear as mud on the subject on which is is a world expert, theology, irritate some. I am not immune to such feelings myself, although I do remind myself that it might be my mental processes and not ++Rowan’s which are at fault sometimes.
At a time when Christians here in the West, not least those who would identify themselves as being of a conservative and orthodox point of view, feel under pressure, and are coming, slowly, to terms with the unsettling fact that a settlement with the State going back to Theodosius in the late fourth century which has often given them a ‘most-favoured religion’ status is going (in my view it has all but gone in Europe), all of this irritation and desire to hit out is natural; but it needs to be resisted by Christians, who are not called upon to be the jaw bone which strikes these modern philistines.
Yes, Christians and Yedizis are being slaughtered, but if we Christians can adopt the latter as our brothers and sisters to be helped, so too we can with the Shia Muslims who are also being beheaded. That does not take away from the need to emphasise our solidarity with our fellow Christians, but it adds to it the Christian impulse to help all who suffer from persecution. Neither does it take away the natural irritation at the smug, self-satisfied one-sidedness of some of the reactions from some on the left; but that too we can offer up – as we can our own shortcomings and sins.
What it would do, however, would be to detract from an agenda which saw Islam itself as the problem. That is a very tempting route down which to go, not least because it is the religion which ISIS professes, and to deny them their self-description smacks of an attempt to wriggle out of this unacceptable face of Islam. The (not very recent) statement by the Muslim Council of Great Britain is, as most such statements are, worthy, but, unlike Archbishop Justin’s, lacking in punch. It is tempting to ask why its members are not more prominent in public condemnation of what ISIS are doing? But when Islamic leaders say that what ISIS is doing is contrary to the core values of Islam, it invites the caustic response that Muslims have done this in the past, and the people doing it now are Muslims. But down that road we all go to perdition, and cue Dawkins going on about Christian atrocities in the past, and misdeeds in the present. We can all poke each other with barbs until the whole world is jumping around; which would be to the taste of the extremists.
The Archbishop has said what needed saying, and, in the spirit of this post, we shall not mention the fact that the last statement from his opposite number in my own Church was on 31 July, (although he has just said something) but rather rejoice that the Pope has been very active in his support for the persecuted. We can set aside our petty irritations and our own agenda, and pray, with the Archbishop and the Pope, and thank God for their example and the work of those who put themselves in harm’s way to help those in most need.
“What it would do, however, would be to detract from an agenda which saw Islam itself as the problem”
Despite the reasonable text that follows this sentence it remains true. Unless every single one of the radical murdering militants are eliminated there will never be peace and safety in the world. Sooner or later Christians and western powers are going to respond to barbaric behavior with the same. I hate to be wrong but in the case of this opinion I hope I am wrong.
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we have to remember, Carl, that Muslims are also being slaughtered here. If the extremists can divide us enough, they hope to rule. Our Christian faith does not drive us in that direction.
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Yes, that is right and true to Christ and thanks for reminding me. But there are over 100 verses in the Koran that justify lying to an infidel, cheating an infidel, no sin in murdering one and reward in heaven for doing so and some verses demanding murder of infidel as condition of faith. After all, Christians and Jews are the agents of Satan and enemies of God. They say we could align with moderate Muslims. What is a moderate Muslim? One that says well lets kill only 20 non believers this week instead of 100.Of course in history Christians that have murdered and warred in the name of Christ are guilty as well of betraying Christ and Creator.
On another point, it has been offered that the war by Islamist death squads may be about nationalism as much as religion but then again a caliphate recognizes no borders of nations and one government only.
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I think we need to be careful about the Koran, not least because it is open to all sorts of interpretations, and certainly not all Muslim scholars and clerics agree wit the fundamentalist view. We must be careful not to see all Muslims the way some atheists judge all Christians by the Westboro Baptists.
We should remember that many Shia Muslims are also being killed here, so it is as much a Muslim civil war as anything else – and here the Shia are our fellow sufferers.
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Chalce I agree we must be very careful of the koran but that’s where it ends, I do not see any evidence from history, practice or intent by any consequential group of muslims in the world today to accord or live in harmony with what we understand as the liberal western way of life, I’m sure I don’t have to site the many, many occasions where this has been proved.
It is simply not the case that any balanced interpretation of the koran can ignore its repeated call to jihad. There are 6,200 verses, approximately, in the koran of which 109 are a call to arms,, count them if you doubt it. That means one out of 55 verses in the koran was written to incite Muslims to violence against various kinds of non-Muslims. However you wish to interoperate that, peaceful is not an option, it’s still a lot of incitement to violence.
Your analogy of atheists and westbro Baptists is telling let me give one I heard of too. There is a moderate Muslim in Los Angeles, he’s a professor of law at UCLA: Khaled Abou El Fadl. And he has a website in which he’s trying to persuade radical Muslims to be moderate. There was a Los Angeles Times article about him, he does not use quotes from the Qur’an to try to persuade radical Muslims to moderation. All he uses is, “obscure text from the hadith.” So trying to use text from the hadith—obscure ones at that—to stop the radicalism of many Muslims is like trying to slow down a hurricane by asking moths to beat their wings against the wind.
Or in comparing ordinary Muslims today to ordinary Germans during the Nazi era, very few people were true Nazis, but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. And the rest, of course, is history — or today’s story, according to how you see it.
Chalce, this battle between the east and west has been going on since the crusades, there are not many ways I know of interpreting a sword on your neck and it won’t stop in our lifetime, nor will wishful thinking change it. Our politicians would do well to accept that fact and deal once and for all with the threat.
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The difficulty, Mark, is there is no once and for all way of dealing with a faith and the millions of people who adhere to it. Our own experience as Christians supports the conclusion which recent events in the Middle East supports, which is that attempts to exterminate a faith simply produces martyrs and provides the blood needed to feed the faithful.
How the West coexists with Islam has certainly been a long term problem, which suggests that there is no answer of huge sort you seek. It has been made even more difficult because of immigration into Europe and the US.
There is no alternative to trying to find a way of living with those who are here. The problem is the liberal faith in multi-culturalism. The old line of encouraging integration is the only one to be pursued; those who wish to live as they did in Pakistan can, of course, return whence they came.
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Chalce, the Ottomans managed to keep the lid on the Islamic hornets nest for centuries very successfully and it was a big empire, granted it used extreme measures to do so but that seeme to be the language these extremists understand. We have tried to coexist with Islam and it has again failed, it failed when Mohammed emerged from the desert wastes and has failed each and every time since. How many more times do we need to learn the lesson, theirs no accommodation in Islam, the clue is in the meaning, submittion.
After the war, only 70 years ago, because of the indoctrination inherent in the nazi philosophy, the allied powers introduced a program of de-nazification on the German people. On the whole it can be claimed that it was largely successful, Germany did not hanker for the ‘good old days’. Had we in the west the will, on a model similar to that say of going on a speed awareness course to avoid points on your licence, we could follow this lead for all those who think it’s OK to behead those who don’t follow the Islamic allah. Like the points system those attending could pay for it, failure to comply would mean a fine and points, 12 points and pick you Middle East callifait of choice your going there.
Ok that’s an off the cuff suggestion, there are others and I’m sure better, but to the cultured west they are unpalatable. I do not believe there are no alternatives to dealing with islam, there is just not the will. Our problem is that we think of ourselves a too civilised, too advanced to deal effectively in the control methods required, funny we don’t seem to apply these scruples to the unborn. Yes I can hear the screems of fascist already but to me Islam has conclusively shown it has no place in the west. Kipling said it best 100 years ago in The Ballad of East and West : 0h, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet, …
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The difficulty here is that Germany was a European country with a shared civilisation and set of values, and could be brought back; this is not true of the Islamic nations concerned here.
I am not sure that exporting Muslims to a caliphate would be, even in the short-term, a good option, even were it possible, which it isn’t.
The only way forward is, where military action is needed, as it is here, to hit hard, and then to ensure that forces in the region sympathetic to Western values are supported. At home there should be no truck with Islamic apartheid.
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Agree, C. Any suppression in our home countries is unsupportable if we are to remain free, it smacks too much of a Christian (of some kind TBD theocracy. We already have more of that nonsense than is good for us. We can control immigration, and essentially quarantine much of the problem. That attempt is why Columbus set sail after all.
Other than that I think the Israelis have figured out the unhappy modus vivendi, “Mowing the lawn”. Protect our people and let them do what they will to each other, and perhaps, at some point welcome the refugees. There will be those wanting something better, there always have been. We built a country on that very point.
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I am afraid, grim counsel though that is, it is the only way.
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It is, and it is the last resort, I’m afraid it is the only one. it is time to hang tough.
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This is the very reason you would not want me as the PM of GB. You see I don’t hold with the notion that suppression in our home countries is unsupportable as Neo does, it’s happening already, people self censor themselves and reproach themselves for un PC thoughts all the time, I see it at work every day. I expect some to report themselves to HR any days now, good grief.
Geoff can tell you about his worries for his street ministry, so can a host of other guest house keepers, nurses, registrars etc, And while I fully agree It could not happen in today’s progressive west, wait and see, if we live long enough, and the right triggers are pulled my thoughts on dealing with Islam will seem mild in comparison for what is to stop a nation that is not answerable to God, a nation that is only answerable to its own hubris?
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As you say, Mark, the problem is that, like so many things which are theoretically desirable, it is practically impossible.
It is certain that if we treat all Muslims as though they support ISIS, many more will. Many are horrified at what they see – but they suffer their own form of political correctness and dare not open up in public.
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Mark, you make my point. If we start with it where does it end. And who decides? Cameron? Obama?
You protect free speech by protecting it for everybody, especially those you detest.
Otherwise you’ll end with Sharia or something equally as bad, done by whoever is loudest and most ruthless. That’s rarely Christians
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I’m inclined to think that we must discriminate, and carefully as well. Our experience is truly that “Not all Moslems are terrorists; all [or nearly all] terrorists are Moslems.” That is of course, as all generalities are, both false and unfair to many. But it is also a workable guide, if we use it as a guide and not a verdict.
If the reports are true, one thing we need to do is also to dissociate (to a point) Jihadis from Arabs, we seem to be seeing a fair number of disaffected Europeans, and some Americans, joining in as well. I think that means that we have to use the discrimination that we traditionally do in law enforcement, and deal with overt acts, and not feelings.
That’s not going to be easy but, it is the only way to be just. I think we should also remember that: “If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck: it most likely is a duck.”
These are both interesting and disheartening times but, our people have known worse, and survived and prospered. So shall we, if we keep on keepin’ on.
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We shall so, Neo. Reports from the region indicate that some of the Iraqi supporters are getting tired of the antics of the ‘foreigners’ – it is a pattern we saw in Afghanistan and Syria; if the US can pound them hard, their coalition may well fall apart.
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I have lots of problem believing that the population, however devout, and Iraq was pretty secular, really want this sort of theocracy, even Egypt wan’t this bad; so yes, i think we have local allies, probably a lot of them, if they think they can be without losing their heads.
But I think we would do well to think beyond, at least quietly, about what replaces the state of Iraq, cause I think that is simply a memory.
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I agree Neo. These wretched Iraqi politicians will be arguing over who should be PM as they board the last helicopter from Baghdad.
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Indeed, and they will being getting advice from Washington as it lands on the CVN
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I fear so.
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I wonder sometimes if the DOS has realized yet that south vietnam is gone.
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Possibly not 🙂
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Well, they call it Foggy Bottom for more reasons that the malarial swamp. 🙂
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Very true.
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