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One response to events in Mosul and Iraq is to demand that ‘something should be done’; the difficulty is that the activities of the Western world in this region are a large part of the reason for the problem; when in a hole the best thing is to stop digging.
The geopolitics of the second Iraq war were always troubling. The first Iraq war had a clear motive, Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait, and a clear aim, the liberation of Kuwait; neither of these things were try of its successor. It was clear that the removal of Saddam would lead to the destabilisation of Iraq, and the one victor from that would be Iran; quite why anyone thought otherwise is a puzzle. A cold, hard look at where were are now points up three allies, none of them sympatico: Russia, Syria and Iran. They have one thing in common with us – they fear Shia Islam in the Wahhabite form practiced and propagated by Saudi Arabia. But the times, and our stomachs, are not attuned to the strong meat this would be. A public revolted at Russian behaviour in the Ukraine would not readily see past that to a more Realpolitik view of the world; but the alternatives are so thin on the ground as to be invisible.
Our friend Quiavideruntoculi blames the last few Popes for having a dialogue with Islam. With all respect due to the Papacy, there is nothing it could have done to prevent this situation. Indeed, in many ways, it is Western interventions across the last century which have made what was never a good situation worse. For all its many faults, the Ottoman Empire provided an environment in which the Christians could coexist with Muslims, as they did for centuries. It was not equal coexistence, and in the Ottoman heartlands, it led to the virtual extinction of Christianity across five hundred years; there were massacres, such as those which occurred in Bulgaria in 1876, and there was the Armenian genocide in 1915; and, of course, Christians were second-class subjects. But, with all of those drawbacks, things were better than than they are now. Christians have been in Mosul since at least the sixth century; there are none left.
I have listened to the BBC here, and have heard nothing of any of this; neither have I heard our Government or the American Government complain. Thinking in purely secular ways produces no answer to the current situation in the Middle East. What is going on there is, broadly speaking, a Sunni-Shia struggle, and we should be looking to organise help from those Shias who see ISIS as the spearhead of a Sunni assault aimed predominantly at them. That means working with Iran. It also means working with the Power which sees Sunni Islam as a threat to Orthodox Christians – Putin’s Russia. It means thinking about the world in a way which our leaders have not done since the Thirty Years’ War. Yes, it is revolting to deal with Putin who is an ex-KGB thug; but it is that or see Christianity exterminated from the region, and millions of Christians suffer. If our leaders cannot compute in this way, they need to learn how to do so. The ISIS forces have dealt speedily with the well-equipped and expensively-trained forces of the Iraqi government, and in the present political climate, no Western Government is going to put good money in after bad, and even if they did, the West can’t stay there for ever – and the Sunnis will; so there has to be a smarter way of dealing with this. The one think which links the grouping needed here is religion. It isn’t that we think Islam is the same as Christianity, it is that we recognise that there is a breach in Islam through which we can create a coalition which will defeat ISIS. If we forget everything we knew about the Cold War, it will help. There’s no use seeing Putin as the KGB thug he is. If we think that the West can do anything in this region without Iran and Russia on side, then we are dreaming. Whatever Putin’s motives (and it is safe to assume they are of the lowest) he takes Orthodoxy seriously in political terms, and historically, the Christians in this region have looked to Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Should we be following Putin and seeing religion as a political tool? Well, it is better than the alternative.
Russia is going to attack Israel.
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I doubt it Bisco.
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God says they will in Ezek.
Tell me, I pray thee, why don’t you believe the bible? Thanks in advance
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Because that is your personal and private interpretation of ezekiel, which does not say Russia will attack Israel.
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You fancy yourself as a historian. Does that job description included any geography? What country is directly north of Jerusalem?
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That would be Syria, followed by Turkey, followed by the Ukraine.
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Lebanon, Bosco. So, Danny Thomas is going to attack Israel?
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14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Gog, is the land we now call Russia. Gomer is the area we now call Germany. Im sure you must know this, being a historian and all.
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I think you’re on a better wicket thinking of this as the roman and Persian Empires.
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Good brother Neo, go back to sleep.
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Christians dying and being killed in Iraq; a student in my class can’t even go back to his home country because they’d kill him for being a Christian; and all St Bosco cares about is that the Bible says, according to him, “Russia will attack Israel” and the book doesn’t even say that?!? Help me figure this out, Chalcedon451.
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Putin also called on Western powers not to meddle in Russia’s domestic affairs and said steps were needed to strengthen the country’s military capabilities because of moves by NATO and to protect the economy from “external threats”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/putin-russia-nato_n_5608924.html
Oh, Russia wont attack anybody. They are so nice and friendly.
Oh and all those jews who got free education growing up in Russia, the soviets don’t want them back. They were happy to educate them.
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You can doubt this too;
Since the outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas, participants at anti-Israel demonstrations across Germany have frequently used anti-Semitic slogans and also called for Jews to be gassed — a reference to the killing of Jews by the Nazis in the Holocaust.
In Berlin on Tuesday afternoon, about 500 pro-Palestinian demonstrators marched from the city’s Potsdamer Platz to the landmark Brandenburg Gate, chanting slogans like “Israel is murder” and “Israel bombs, Germany finances.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/europe-anti-semitic-demonstrations_n_5608902.html
All that has to happen is a new generation has to get in power that hates Israel. The bible mentions Gomer(Germany) as one of the countries that attacks Israel. Those of us who believe gods word are watching it happen befor our eyes. Those who don’t believe one word of the bible say it wont happen, as they walk out of their church. Ive always wonderd why people attend church services when they don’t believe one gat danged word of the bible…Oh, I forgot…that’s why they belong to religions…because they don’t trust in gods words.
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Bosco, no, the Bible does not say Gomer is Germany; you say Gomer is Germany, and you are not the Bible. Those of you with vivid imaginations can make things up, and no doubt it serves some kind of need. The reason some of us belong to a church is that we see people such as yourself make fools of themselves by saying some of the things you do. There is as much chance of Germany attacking Israel as there is of you becoming Pope.
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Keep going north and youll run into Moscow. Anyway, Ezek names the country, gog, which we know as Russia. Come on, who else has the means to cover the land with warriors? Bible even says the kings of the east will join in.
With all my knowledge, I don’t know if the rapture happens during, befor or after this. My guess has always been….befor. Heres why: After the rapture, there will be 3 yrs of some kind of peace, brokerd by the man of sin. But Satan will want to rid the world of Israel again and will come against it with the whole world. But this isn’t Armageddon. Armageddon is during the millennium when the people rise up against god himself.
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Go North far enough and you reach the North Pole. I don’t know how to break this to you, but Russia does not have a king. But you will carry on with your strange fantasies and pretend the Bible agrees with you; it is what you do.
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C, since when did “Jerusalem” become a country?
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Geography is another of Bosco’s weak points. There is a search party out looking for his strong points.
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**** yeah, C! Go north far enough and you run into king St. Nick and his bag of toys to dump on puny Israel cause it’s Gog! Go north from the North Pole and you run into the South Pole! There’s a greedy emperor of Gomer there which will fight Gog! Do I have the prophecy right? And Santa Claus is a prince according to Rev. 1:6!
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Scripture says the attack is a concerted effort. I didn’t mean Germany alone would attack. Ok, so the ball is in your court. Who are all these countries that god says in ezek will attack Israel? You’ve ruled out every European nation. That leaves Mexico and Hawaii. Maybe Guatemala will attack Israel. Or maybe the USA
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Bosco, in every age fanatics have made up their own view of what these countries were; I leave speculation to those with the time to do it.
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God even went so far as to mention names. Some countries have changed names like Persia, I now Iran. Heres the quote;
And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
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And where are the horses and horsemen coming from Bosco? I hate to tell you this, but modern armies lack a cavalry arm. I don’t think they use bucklers and swords either.
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You know, if you don’t believe the bible, its up to each person. Its a free country.
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I believe the Bible, but you are not the BIble.
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I should mention…Gog has been constantly at war with Israel. Not once has it delivered unto them toys on Christmas Eve. So millions of Jews wake up every Christmas morning without toys! Terrible, right?
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Though I understand your logic (and I have no answer), sadly, your solution sounds far too much like a violation of Catholic morality: i.e. the ends can never justify the means. Support and cooperation with evil is something we do without thinking in the political sphere but something quite at odds with Christian thought. Seems that this is what got us into many of these messes in the past and unseen consequences are lurking everywhere no matter what road we travel. Not sure any solution is The Solution unless (by the power of God) the whole lot of them converted to Christianity over night.
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The difficulty is this – how moral a position is it to leave the Christians of the Middle East to their fate? We seemed to have no trouble about breaking the Middle East.
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That indeed is the problem. If we were led by a Christian ethic (and we are no longer) here in the US, perhaps we would go it alone as the Jewish state has been doing. But we haven’t the will or the stomach to do so. Thereby, we are more apt to supply weapons and share intelligence with Russia and Iran. In the meanwhile we will feed a snake (Iran will very probably be nuclear in 6 months) and Russia wants to reestablish its old Union in all its glory. Where will that in the future leave Israel and the US in all this? I don’t know if there is an answer unless we seek it from on high or try to convert our leaders to being men of principle.
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Israel, of course, cannot go it alone; without the USA there would have been another holocaust by now. But the US is not going to be able to bear the cost of this forever, and unless there is some diplomatic solution, the US will continue to find its coffers drained, and Israel will lose its young men.
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Actually, if it weren’t for the US restraining them, we might not have to be worrying so much about Iran. It is not clear whether the US (which is showing signs of abandoning its only friend in the region). But Israel having waited this long will now have to contend with missile defenses they would have eliminated years ago and the toll on them will be greater – and in the future will face almost assured destruction. By the time we feign an attempt to honor our treaties there will be nothing to do but take care of the dead and the dying.
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No, I see no moral conflict here. Depending on a few definitions it comes very close to the definition of a “just war”, just as the early crusades did.
The problem is this, the west is is a leaderless, rudderless mob. The so-called leaders only religion is secularism, a very frail reed, even if they could be convinced.
We forget how long nation building takes, even when it works. We occupied (nominally) germany for 10 years, and are still there, and it looks to me like we may have made Germany so pacifistic that it will forever be a ward of the US, or disappear.
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Well said Neo. I feel uneasy at saying my morality requires you to be made homeless, persecuted and crucified.
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I do as well. It is all very well to turn the other cheek. It is an entirely different matter for me to tell other people, especially their women and kids to turn the other cheek.
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If you are insinuating that I am proffering a stance of non-involvement where we look on as the innocent are murdered and do nothing to come to their aid, then you have severely misread me or I have mis-stated my points by not clearly expressing myself. Both, of course, are possible.
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At ease, soldier! It did read that way, at least cursorily, and I know you well enough to know that wasn’t what you meant. With our poltroon in chief, I’m not very confident we’ll accomplish much but we must do what we can, and pray for a better outcome than we deserve.
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Indeed he is a poltroon and his sleeping with the enemy doesn’t suit me too well. I know, from my perspective, I sure don’t want to crawl in bed with Iran and Russia. God help me when the lights go out.
Sadly, if we weren’t such cowards, we would have done something long before now. I don’t see a good decision coming from Washington any time soon.
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I share your fear of a nuclear Iran, and your distaste for Russia.
Iran, I suspect will eventually be slowed down by Israel with the help of the Saudis, not optimal but better than nothing.
Russia is no more than a regional power, in a just war, it would be Europe’s (specifically Germany’s) problem. The problem is that Europe has become completely dependant on the United States, because they dismantled their defense industry to pay the welfare bill, even as we are doing now. not a good portent for peace, in my mind.
The problem is this: we can’t attack Russia without the risk of Nuclear war, nor can they us. In both cases Europe is free to act, while we hold the ring. I am also tired of the oil/gas excuse, with little effort we could make up their loss, in fact it would be good for our economy as well.
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Yeah if our environmental wackos will turn us loose to harvest our immense energy reserves. And, of course, getting rid of president that is hell bent on turning us into a third world country.
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That’s my point, for the moment we have to stall.
BTW, did you hear, the DC Circuit just ruled that 404care may only be subsidised through state exchanges, not federal, you know, like it says in the law. Ooops!
It’s the law!! eleventy 🙂
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I did. The 41st alteration to the Obamacare law that these SS types have made illegally. 🙂
Slowly, but surely it will unravel and they will push their real agenda: single payer – which we can’t fund. Part of the plan? Cloward and Piven? Probably.
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I think that’s the plan alright. But I also think like obliterating the southern border, it’s likely to blow up.
These guys have no clue of what an American thinks or does, and it going to bite them very hard in the backside one of these days, and then it will get worse.
I can smell the fear in Washington, clean out here, if we keep up the fight, i think we’ll win, for now. 🙂
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Well the hispanic community is starting to mobilize now; portending perhaps your fear of a race war. Only it remains to be seen who will be standing with whom at this point.
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You know, we have done the Hispanics major harm. We have made it nearly impossible for them to immigrate legally, even if they have a husband/wife here, and then we wondered that they came anyway. That’s no defense of the trash coming now, mind, but it’s not entirely on them either.
The only less bad thing is that it will center around the cities, and thus we can fairly easily avoid it. At least I’ll do my best to. It’s rather like trying to choose between ISIS and Iran, while supporting both with our taxes. Not very viable, I think 🙂
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True that. Problem is the administration is an obvious ally with marxist affiliated groups such as Raza gaining voice and their organizing is getting more effective throughout all of this. We will live with the Obama legacy for long time I’m afraid. 🙂
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Yep, that is the problem. Those of us with rational concerns about it, just cannot compete with them, especially allied with (what passes for) the government 🙂
We have come far from our common-law law roots, and going back will be difficult. 🙂
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That is the scary part my friend and not sure it will be done: especially in the swirl of crisis after crises keeps up its pace. We haven’t time to focus on one crises before we are dealing with two new ones and they keep getting put on the back burner until we forget they are even there.
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I think that is the plan, and there’s no obvious counter for it.
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Short of a political party that is willing to risk all to take these fools to justice, impeach and indict.
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Yep, let’s see where we are next year on that. Futile without the Senate. And I would impeach Holder rather than Obama, changing the AG might help. The only downside is that it makes a fair trial almost impossible. Don’t let them fool you, either, it is an expressly political, not judicial process.
I note that Britain gave up on impeachment about the time we adopted it, they found it far too cumbersome in the case of, if I remember, Lord Hastings.
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Definitely political and I agree wholly. Yes, Holder and Obama should pay the price as well and probably a host of others. The signal (political or not) is that we are a nation of laws. Right now, it looks like we are a lawless nation and that the Constitution is an old musty document full of out of date suggestions.
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Yep, and the Constitution was merely a restatement. The struggle goes directly to Magna Charta, and the 1000+ year war to curtail the prerogative power, which we are again losing. Summarized best as ‘Rule under and through the law.”
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Now federal laws and regulations are used as punishments, tax revenue, and to coerce people to their agenda or pay the price. There is enough on the books now to prosecute any man, woman or child if they decided to enforce it. Nobody can possibly know all the regulations and laws that we live under; we are all criminals should they decide to prosecute us for our non-compliance.
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Welcome to England under the ‘personal rule’. This was the cause of the English Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, and the Second English Civil War, that we, somewhat mistakenly, call the Revolution. It was all about the Rule of Law, that’s the difference between ours and the French and Russian revolutions, and why ours never go on to chaos.
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Until now, perhaps? 🙂
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Perhaps, but we’re not in as bad a shape as the barons before Runnymede. And we have the guidance of all those that fought the battle before. 🙂
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Of course, such optimism, is born of a reasonable and reasonably intelligent people that read, think and can come to some logical understanding. I’m losing much faith in my fellow American in these early days of the 21st century. I’m not sure there are enough of the old guard around to give us the same outcome as our previous historical fights.
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True, and I have my moments as well. But I’ll play ouit the string, and we’ll see.
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Russia is Magog and Gog is their leader. Meshech and Tubal are believed by many to be the former Soviet States, which includes Ukraine. It is clear according to these Scriptures that the Russian leader will rule over some of the former Soviet States, which is exactly what we witnessing in Ukraine. Furthermore in 2008, Russia invaded the country of Georgia attempting to take the South Ossetia from them. Could these
aggressive acts by Russia clue us into Putin’s desire to rebuilt the Soviet Union and fulfill Biblical prophecy?
http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/04/now-rising-gog-and-magog-war-russia-ukraine-iran-israel-we-are-witnessing-the-fulfillment-of-ezekiel-38-2460462.html
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Dear Bosco,
Read Fr. Kimel’s works on eschatology.
http://afkimel.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/sergius-bulgakov-the-irresistible-truth-of-final-judgment/
Much more researched site than yours.
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If this is a Sunni-Shia struggle, there will be no winner, and there’s not much we can do other than try to play them against each other (which, when the US has tried it, has usually backfired). But there are still those (including the Kurds, for now) arguing that this shouldn’t be about Sunni vs. Shia; these are the people we should be supporting, rather than agreeing to the goals of ISIS and advocating a partition, as some are now doing. To become a stable democracy, any government needs enough checks and balances to avoid having any position become a personal fiefdom, and it’s clear that Iraq under al-Maliki hasn’t had that, just as Egypt doesn’t have that. It’s also clear that “we” on the outside cannot “accomplish” that, but we can pray to that end and look for opportunities to help rather than harm.
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Indeed, and we should not be looking to see either side win, as it is not in our interests; but it is in our interests that ISIS should not.
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Thank you; I fear that it is too strong for some stomachs.
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My dear fellow, your handsome apology accepted with pleasure, as I know your heart is in the right place. In these strange times, when the trumpet itself gives an uncertain sound, men might well be puzzled.
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I think my background in Orthodoxy may help me here, as it is less inclined to insist on strict definitions, and allows for a certain economy when dealing with the human condition. Doctrine is what it is, the Pope cannot change it unilaterally. He can have his views, some of which may even be orthodox, but until and unless he tries changing doctrine, rather than offering his views on what he might like it to be, that, whilst regrettable, is all it is. Even the Pope is entitled to his private opinion; in the case of this chap, I wish someone would remind him of the meaning of the word private.
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In America, it is really only a handful of journalists who take the time to cover the crisis. My brother and I were talking about this today. Assyrian Christianity is pretty much dead now. Assyrians have lived near the lands around Mosul since before writing. Think of the profundity of that. And now, thanks to some crazed fanatics, they are pretty much gone. We’ve seen an ugly part of history unfold before our eyes.
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It is a tragedy, and our governments should be ashamed of themselves,
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