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For those of you who read the comments-boxes, there has been a veritable feast of controversy over the vitally important question of what it means to be ‘saved’. I am sorry if, to some, this causes grief, it is not meant to, but what is one to do when one perceives false doctrine? I have tried not to riducule Bosco, but I cannot simply let his views pass unchallenged. One of our commentators, Steve has provided a most interesting, and I think, illuminating commentary on Acts 2:38:
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Steve provides a number of readings of this which, whilst common enough, are none of them what Christians have believed, and none of which actually map onto what St Peter said. These bear rescuing from the comments section so a wider audience can benefit from them. Steve’s ten fictional readings include:
1. Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized because your sins have already been forgiven. (Fictional Account)
Much the same can be said of the idea of being saved. As I understand him, our friend Bosco’s account of salvation would run along the lines of number 1 above. Bosco writes: If the saved do something wrong, it is up to them to ask to be forgiven, and the Lord is true and just to forgive us, and believes that even if he murders someone, he can ask for forgiveness and it will be given to him. This is, unless I have him wrong (and if so, apologies and an invitation to him to say what he does believe) a version of ‘once saved, always saved.’ But where, in Holy Scripture, does it say this? In Hebrews 10:26 we are told:
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
That we have to strive to overcome our sins to be saved seems so clear that it is surprising anyone ever thought otherwise. In Revelation 3:5 we read:
“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
“For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire
So we see, clearly, in Scripture, that those who have known the way of righteousness can turn from it, and if they do, it would have been better for them that they had never known it. This, too, the author of Hebrews emphasises:
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
So it is clearly the case that those who have been enlightened by the Spirit can fall away, and they cannot then be renewed. We are not, here talking about what the Church would call venial sins, but rather about what it calls mortal sins – the sins which separate us from God.
So, becoming saved is not a licence to sin if we wish, because, as St John tells us:
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
As St Paul says:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
So yes, those who truly follow Jesus, who are truly his, will not be lost, but that means abiding in His word, for it is the Truth which sets us free. But Paul disciplined himself, knowing that it was possible to lose the prize. If Jesus had preached onced saved, always saved, then why does Paul talk about working out his salvation in ‘fear and trembling’? What is there to worry about if once one has the assurance of salvation, one cannot lose it? Paul writes: ‘I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.’ If we do not believe this, then we deny the word of the Spirit Himself:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
Unless someone is willing to say this means that those who were saved, and have departed from the faith and have spoken lies are still ‘saved’, then we have to conclude that, however tempting the idea of ‘once saved. always saved’, it is un-Scriptural.
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All Along the Watchtower 
Today is the feast day of one of your buddies St. Iraneaus.
Have followed the recent comments by one and all and decided to be an observer and spend some time praying for two people the Sudanese woman Mariam and a buddy SEAL with severe PTSD who recently attempted suicide. Out of five friends that went through BUDS training three have eaten the gun.
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Kyrie eleison. Last I read regarding Mariam Ibrahim she had made it to the US embassy, but the BBC has been quiet about her today.
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May their souls rest in peace, David. The seals are special heroes and though we admire their ability to cope with the physical stress of their jobs we often don’t consider the psychological stresses they have to cope with. Christ have mercy. My prayers are with them.
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Thanks Servus, it’s doubly difficult for him brought up Catholic, there’s the conflict between Thou shalt not kill… this of course applies to all who are strong Christians as youths.
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It is a hard question for any man to resolve adequately.
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Jesus took all sins on himself, like it or not. Its up to each person how he deals with it. Its you and god. No go betweens like costume holymen or church teachings or trinkets on a necklace, like good brother Servus wears.
Its up to each man and his maker.
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I didn’t see any Biblical quotations there, Bosco, You might want to address yourself to my argument, and to the Scripture on which it is based.
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Do I need a quote? Isnt it up to each man to come to Christ?
Im busy eating.
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Does man live by bread alone?
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Man also lives by the beef and bean and cheese burrito combo plate, with free refills on the drink and fries
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Go easy in the salt, or he doesn’t live quite so long 🙂
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Food places in los angeles don’t give free refills, but in Inland Empire they do. I hate that. Im going to LA for a month. Im leaving today. I miss the free refills on drinks. Do you get free refills in jolly ol England?
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Not that I have come across. I hope whatever takes you to LA prospers.
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Decorating. Real estate. I got out of the medical field because of the AIDs epidemic. Now im one of a team that remodels income property.
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Hope it goes well for you, Bosco.
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I do hope someday you will learn the difference between a trinket and a sacramental. But the readers are tiring of this back and forth, so why don’t we just leave it at that.
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Good idea brother.
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C, I think you have stated the case well and there is little else to say about it. I doubt there is anything we can do further, so a return to normal conversations and arguments might indeed be the direction in the near future though perhaps at times, we can try again to expunge unsound thinking concerning Christianity, the Church and salvation etc. But for now, I understand the tiresomeness of these arguments by the other readers and alas, it is nothing compared to the tiresomeness of those of us arguing against the same mantras day in and day out which have zero impact and generally reveal nothing that we did not know before we attempted to correct the errors that are spewed forth on a daily basis.
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I agree, and feel a sense of sorrow for other readers. We have done what we can to help the process of saving our Brother Bosco.
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I think so as well. Prayer may work far better than our explanations.
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I think we have done all that can be humanly done. The last post was designed to show him, and any who search, what Scripture says. There is, of course, nothing there with which the Church does not concur, but they will not listen to the Church.
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And why should those who do not believe in religion or the Church believe anything that it says? And conversely, why should any Christian claim that those who reject religion and the Church are Christians? Reminds one of the New Age views of Spiritual but Not Religious.
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I am afraid so.
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I believe one can lose his salvation.
I wasn’t asked if I believe that. I was asked if murder would lose salvation.
Once saved always saved is a slogan. It has nothing to do with reality.
If once wants, one can turn his back on salvation. The difference is once one is born again, and if h sins, he knows it and doesn’t like it. If he starts to not care, then forgiveness isn’t there.
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Good, I am glad you do not agree that ‘once saved’ means ‘always saved’.
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There is no sin god cant forgive.
There is one though. Its blasphemy against the holy ghost. This will not be forgiven.
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Indeed, Bosco. I hope that I have provided some food for thought for you Bosco.
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You usually do good brother, but ill never let on.
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There is a war going on in the spirit world…a war for our souls. if you could see it, your hair would turn white.
yes, you, me, Chalcedon, Jess, Obama…everyone. The angels involved know we are completely unaware. They must marvel at how calm we are knowing what they know is waiting for the lost.
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All of which is why our faith needs to be firmly founded.
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Im scared. Im scared good brother Chalcedon. Think of the people that will be unceremoniously dumped into the lake of fire. People you know and I know, and people here in this blog will be there.
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That is why we strive so hard to make sure we follow His precepts. There is no other name by which we are saved.
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why does Paul talk about working out his salvation in ‘fear and trembling’? What is there to worry about
A place of eternal torment. The worm dieth not and there will be gnashing of teeth and gnawing of tongues for pain. This is the fear good brother Paul talks about. Gods warming spirit is gone and the damned are without it. That feeling of absence form the spirit is a burning and a coldness.
Rite now, gods hand is over the whole of creation. He is going to withdraw it soon. It is described as Jacobs trouble. Most call it the trib. The man of sin will now rule the waves.
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Indeed, and that is why we have to stay on guard.
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By the way, nice picture for this post. I like it.
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I thought you might 🙂
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Apostacy. The theme in this post. Im going to put up a quote from good sister Teresas catholic for the purely simple. Tell me what you think. Is this apostacy?
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, help of Christians, refuge of the human race, victorious in all the battles of God, we prostrate ourselves in supplication before thy throne, in the sure hope of obtaining mercy and of receiving grace and timely aid in our present calamities, not through any merits of our own, on which we do not rely, but only through the immense goodness of thy mother’s heart. In thee and in thy Immaculate Heart, at this grave hour of human history, do we put our trust
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No. All Catholics know that such prayers are addressed through her to Christ. Fir my own part, I prefer to go straight there, but each to their own. Mary is never seen apart from her Son, Bosco.
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Im not up for a debate rite now. But help me out here. It doesn’t look like its directed to Christ. Let me give some quotes;
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, help of Christians
refuge of the human race
victorious in all the battles of God
we prostrate ourselves in supplication before thy throne
In thee ….we put our trust
Mary has a throne? We put or trust in HER? Mary does gods battles? Call me old fashioned, but aren’t those the jobs and offices of the Almighty God of Issac and Israel?
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My point here is that, as usual here, you fail to grasp the context. Every Catholic knows that Jesus is King, but many have a devotion to him through his mother – something very common in women. Those unversed and unread jump to the wrong conclusion, when, if they operated through love, they would not.
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Ok, fair enough. Thanks.
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My pleasure.
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Are we really back on the bozo roundabout so soon?
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No, this is the last stop, Mark 🙂
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Im not up for another fist fight rite now. Im packing up to move to los angeles for a month.
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One more thing and im done, for today. Here is another quote from sister Teresa;
Finally, even as the Church and all mankind were once consecrated to the Heart of thy Son Jesus, because He was for all those who put their hope in Him an inexhaustible source of victory and salvation, so in like manner do we consecrate ourselves forever to thee also and to thy Immaculate Heart, O Mother of us and Queen of the world;
She is saying we give Mary the same honor as Jesus. What im asking is ….is this something you agree with or not or maybe. Just want to see your take on it good brother Chalcedon.
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Seen in context, this simply means that they see Our Lady as her Son’s ally, not as some alternative power.
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all mankind were once consecrated to the Heart of thy Son Jesus
She infers that once upon a time we were consecrated to Christ, but now its Marys turn. Call me old fashioned, but im filing this under apostacy.
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I don’t say you are old-fashioned, just that you don’t understand what she’s saying.
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I guess I don’t. Im not as smart as I though.
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It isn’t that, Bosco. There’s a cultural thing going on here. By the way, our new commentator, Gerard, is an evangelical Christian; he’s also my son.
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yES, I SEE yourSON. great.
eVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN. iM NOT SURE OF THE EXACT MEANING OF THAT. iS HE A NON DENOMINATION CHRISTIAN? dOES HE PARTICIPATE IN SERVICES WHERE THEY ARE BIG ON ALTER CALLS?
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He’s a member of the Ebenezer Baptist Church, which is a small Protestant church; his brother is a Pastor in a non-denominal church.
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The question of apostasy is challenging, both Biblically and spiritually, and a perusal of the Scriptures only confirms this. Both doubt and assurance may be found therein.While we find the author of the letter to the Hebrews warning against willful sin ‘after that we have received the knowledge of the truth’, we find also St. Paul speaking in high terms to the Romans about the inability of anything to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And The Lord Himself said that no one could pluck His sheep of out His hand. To be sure, some wrest such doctrine to their own destruction – this is nothing new. But we are not to mistake the presumption of such for the assurance of Paul in Romans 8. After all, did not St. Paul have to correct those who read in his words in praise of the grace of God in overcoming sin a license to go on in sin?
Historically, Protestants have sought to understand the difference in terms of a temporary, ultimately non-salvific faith (St. John’s remarks about those who went out from us being not all of us being often employed). It is a fearful thing to see how far a professing believer may go in their profession and yet prove a castaway at last. Look at Demas, who was once profitable to Paul, yet went back, having loved this present world.
The problem with the term ‘once saved, always saved’ (apart from its being a terrible Americanism) is that it smacks of presumption. A person who says ‘because I am saved it does not matter what I do’ is not only not saved but comes very close to those characters described as crucifying again the Son of God. The same is true of those in the Roman Catholic tradition who think that they can do what they like so long as they confess it to a priest afterwards. To purposely abuse the grace of God is evidence that something is very wrong in a person’s spiritual walk.
Can a child of God commit terrible sins yet be forgiven? King David is a case in point. Why? The free-will teacher would say because he repented. The Reformed Protestant would say because he was the man after God’s own heart. Once awakened to his case, David sought repentance with tears. And found it. Unlike Saul. Why? David was concerned for his walk with God. Saul, like all reprobate characters, was concerned only with his reputation.
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Excellent points, Gerard. For those who do not know, Gerard is my son, and a fine historian.
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Well well, your son eh good brother!.
Good brother Gerard, pleased to meet you. Your father is a man of honor.
Yes, I agree, Saul went terribly wrong He was just worried about his position.
The question is, is Saul going to be in heaven? Jesus tells us not to try to guess who is going and who is not. Hitler did gods will. Is he going to heaven? I know that sounds nuts, but Hitler punished the Jews and that drove them to create the new Israel, which god said would happen. Of course, I would never accuse Good brother Hitler of being saved.
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Welcome to the blog Gerard. David sinned and repented, but what is one to make of a confessing Christian who exhorts others to sin, “Be a sinner and sin boldly!” “Let your sins be strong!” “Sin bravely!”, from the author of the deformation.
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That makes protestant equal with catholic, which exhorts people to bow down befor graven images while they bake cakes to the queen of heaven
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CHALCEDON “…then why does Paul talk about working out his salvation in ‘fear and trembling’? ” Yes I think being saved is a process of living in testimony to Christ not an event or moment in time. A true journey…
GERARD “… it smacks of presumption.” Yes I agree and also that we cannot abuse the Grace of God as you say because “saved” then becomes a sense of entitlement. To be saved is to follow our contract with God without deviation(as sincerely as one is ale) which is the NT New Covenant.
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