Jesus mentions Heaven about 65 times, and hell about 45; he does not mention Purgatory once; so one of my objections to it is that the Lord Himself nowhere mentions it. It is true that in Matthew (Mt. 18:32-34) and Luke (Lk. 12:59) there are passages where Jesus says that those who have sinned will be jailed and not let out until they have paid their debt in full. The Catholic Church has read these, and 1 Cor. 3:11-15 as referring to what happens after death and has concluded there must be some place between here and Heaven in which, despite the explicit promise of Jesus, we will not be condemned. On the one side clear statements about our being saved, on the other rather tortuous explanations of how this is not as easy as Jesus makes it look in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Jesus says that to believe in HIm is to be saved, but men, unable to believe the greatness of the Grace offered to those who repent and believe, have constructed something which looks very like a debtors’ prison. We are asked to believe that Christ died on the Cross in expiation for our sins, and God loves us that much that He makes the sacrifice that we cannot make; His Grace overflows and breaks the bounds of sin. Then, when we die, we get put into debtors’ prison until we are pure enough to be with Him. But where is this dirt? The Blood of the Lamb has washed it away. By all means, if you must, carry over the old Jewish ‘kaddish’ belief that prayers hastened the process of purification – but remember when you do that the Jews do not believe as we do; they do not have Christ crucified and risen to save them, because they refuse to believe; we do. Where is this conditional salvation? Dives looks up to Lazarus, but there is a great gulf between them, and he can in no wise cross it; no purgatory here, and yet Dives does not appear to have been a very wicked fellow.
All of this leads to a system where one can gain ‘merit’, like merit marks at school; and one presumes there are ‘demerits’. So what happens in this place the Bible never mentions? Do we work off our debt? How? Do we hang around in the Marshalsea until the end of time, or do we get let out early in some way? It would seem odd to keep everyone in there for the same length of time. We can. we are told, help souls there by praying for them. So they do get out early do they – what is the release process, and why are we told nothing of this vast system? Grace is not a substance which can be gathered up and doled out in indulgences, or in the prayers of faithful. The Pope and his Church cannot give ‘extra Grace’ to ease a person’s passage through Purgatory. Grace is freely given to the Pope as a sinner, he has no extra powers to get more Grace. God gives it to us if we believe. Yes, that little word gives. You can’t buy it, you can’t store it up and give it out to those who are nice and deprive those who are naughty, or make those who are a bit of both wait longer in the spunging house.
As He hung in the final agonies of crucifixion, the Lord Jesus did not comfort the thief by saying: ‘You will only have a short amount of time in Purgatory’; neither did He say: ‘Your baptism of desire means you don’t need to serve time in Purgatory’ – He did that simple thing which sinful men need to complicate because otherwise they cannot understand its simplicity:
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
The thief was a bad man, he admitted the justice of his punishment. Now, one either believes that if one waits long enough and makes a full confession, one can be spared Purgatory (which seems a Catholic variant of once saved always saved), or one believes that if we have faith and follow Him faithfully, the saving Grace we received at Baptism will overflow the bounds of our sins and that, washed clean in the blood of the Lamb, we shall at the last stand before Him – with no period in clink in between. As one with a lively fear of hell, I need no temptation to think that it could be OK after all – better do the Lord’s work now – and the dead can bury the dead.
The Good News is we’ve been saved. The awesome news is that Jesus died for you. Embrace Him and be saved. It is that simple. There’s no great series of exams to pass, no elaborate theology to master, you’re not going to need a doctorate to get into Heaven, and you’re not doing to need to do time in a very nasty place of torture first. Jesus died to redeem us – believe and be saved!
Romans 6:6 and Romans 8:38-9 are true – rejoice!
All Along the Watchtower 
And here we come to the very foundation of the Reformation.
We are saved by Grace, and it is freely given. Not by works in life, or after death. And that is exactly what Purgatory is, a place to do works after death. Not so coincidentally, it also became a way for corrupt churchmen and their secular counterparts to fleece the savings of the flock, all over Europe, to build monuments, to God, perhaps, but also, to themselves.
LikeLike
Debtors prison was a reality. People came out after serving their time. Jesus was clear, when one dies unsaved, there is no coming out of hell. No time served.
Purgatory is just another bad vicious cruel joke put out by whore of Babylon.And billions are gonna go to hell believing their brown scapular(which good bro Servus wears) will keep them from hell.Catholics poo poo the idea of coming to Christ for salvation because they have been told that they will make it to heaven via purgatory. No need to worry. Satan wins.
LikeLike
Indeed, Neo, and to me that is a great sticking point. I really cannot find any justification for Purgatory save the view of the Church; as I can’t see it at all, I can’t, in all honesty, accept the Church.
LikeLike
I can’t either, Geoffrey, and yes, it is a great sticking point for me, as it was for Luther and Calvin. It just isn’t congruent with everything else.
LikeLike
It is a shame, but there it is. Doesn’t stop me, and you, I know, admiring much that Rome stands for, but it is an insuperable barrier to crossing the Tiber.
LikeLike
It is, and yes I admire Rome immensely but I can’t quite get there, and this is my major rock, although there are a few others.
LikeLike
That is a fundamental misrepresentation of Purgatory, Neo, but a common one. People in Purgatory cannot ‘merit’ anything in purgatory. They are like thieves that have been forgiven by the one that they stole from but still subject to paying their debt in prison. That gains them no merit it is merely justice.
LikeLike
Then the doctrine has changed since the Reformation, SF. It was very clearly stated that the clink of silver would free a soul. Maybe have, but it’s very subject to misuse.
LikeLike
I will not argue that evil men have used Catholic teaching to entice others to contribute to their evil. That in no means changes the teaching as it has been handed down through the ages.
LikeLike
And the responsibility was the Pope’s, not the latest ones, to be sure, but the indulgence drives were orchestrated from Rome. And were carried out by both regular and secular clergy.
Is it better now? Of course it is, but its still bad, unsupported doctrine.
LikeLike
That is your subjective take on the scriptural references I gave already. It is not that of the Church, obviously, and I will hold with the Church as I do believe that in matters of faith and morals the Church is being led by the Holy Spirit. So it is a matter of faith no different for me than believing that Christ is God or that the Holy Spirit is God.
LikeLike
No that is the view of my church, and always has been, and my church was based on Christianity before the Catholic church needed the prefix Roman. I echo what you said, and have no doubt that your road is valid, it’s just not the only one.
LikeLike
As I said before to Theo. These are the issues that will not and connote be solved by ecumenism. We will just have to agree to disagree and try to find common causes that agree with that which we all agree. Beyond that this disunity will prevail until Christ’s return.
LikeLike
Yep, it’s just interesting to talk about, and se where we agree (mostly) and where we don’t, and why.
LikeLike
It is. Having come from that side of things, it is also interesting for me to see how my thinking has evolved over the years.
LikeLike
Yep, mine isn’t quite what it used to be either, E&R wasn’t big on free will.
LikeLike
I can imagine.
LikeLike
I bet you can.
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
But if paying our debt off in prison will do, why did Christ need to die in agony?
LikeLike
Because we must use our free will in order to accept His gift. And by our free will we were either hot or cold or lukewarm in our belief. Are all to end up the same?
I would ask alternative questions. If Christ paid our sin by His agonized death on the Cross, then why do we need to be put to the test since sin has been destroyed? Why, since Christ has known our souls from the beginning, are we not instantly in heaven or hell: for we have no need of this life anymore. Why also should their be suffering on earth? In that regard, earth is like to Purgatory. Why, if Christ paid both for original sin and our particular sins should this persist? I don’t know why: but it does, just like Purgatory.
LikeLike
Your first paragraph provides your answer. We suffer here. This is our test.
LikeLike
And I would reply with the author of Divine Intimacy, that ‘Purgatory would not be necessary if we were perfectly faithful to grace.’ I would also say that ‘in Purgatory one suffers without increasing in love, though on earth purification is accomplished with an increase of grace and charity.’
LikeLike
It is an interesting idea, but seems unnecessary. Why can’t your church just believe what Jesus says on this one?
LikeLike
Because Christ’s action on the Cross deserves a reaction from each individual. In your theology, if the reaction is not sufficient there is no place other than hell. In the teaching of the Catholic Church God makes up for our imperfections in grace and love by subjecting us to that which we would not do voluntarily on earth. He make hot what once was a cold or lukewarm faith on earth. We enter heaven through love. And though we had the opportunity to abide in love and increase its action within us we found ourselves wanting. God has supplied for our inadequacies and lets some enter into heaven that entered via the broad road rather than the small one which few transgress.
LikeLike
I can see what you mean, except I don’t agree with the characterisation of our position. We are saved by Jesus’ atoning blood; we continue to be saved through His Grace, and when we die, we hope that we shall not have lost what He gained for us. All the things you mention happen here in the one life we have; we don’t have another life before the judgment.
LikeLike
That is true. What is essential in Catholic parlance are the virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity.
When Christ said, ‘deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me’ it was a request but not a make or break deal. How many Christians have you met in life that lived joyously in their sufferings and gained both in grace and love? It is not binary to a Catholic. We still have faith and hope and love and in various measures. We are not going to get an equal share of happiness and joy: only as much as we are able to bear. Do you not think that the those who have denied self and carried their crosses will perhaps be ‘perfected’ by Christ and the Holy Spirit to the extent that they will enter into the Joy of the the Lord immediately? I’m sure you do. However, where we disagree is that Catholics believe those who did not can also be forgiven and enter into Heaven, after they also endure the cross that will be given them to bear in Purgatory since they did not do in here.
LikeLike
I appreciate where you are coming from, and can see why the Church answers the question as she does. But I do believe that all who believe will be saved, and that those who came to the vineyard only at the last hour will get what those who have laboured all day will get.
LikeLike
Indeed so: but in that parable we were talking about the wage of everlasting life in Heaven — salvation. I don’t think anyone believes that if you come to Christ on your deathbed will deprive you of heaven nor believe that only those who have labored in God’s fields all their lives are the only one’s to receive that wage.
What is obvious to me, is that it is highly unlikely that in a burst of faith (which is possible like with Paul) that one comes to perfect faith and love. Therefore, how does one deal with a man who finally confesses Christ on his deathbed, without having time to offer penance for His sins as opposed to say, your friend who you found to be nearly a saint) who I would imagine did all he could day and night for years to purge himself of every sin and every imperfection in order to make himself pleasing to God and to grow in his love for God. True they both get to heaven – but might they take a different route to get there?
LikeLike
For me, that is what the story about the labourers in the vineyard is about. We can all sympathise with the elder brother in the Prodigal Son, but Jesus’s ways are not ours.
LikeLike
To me, the infinite mercy of Christ is paramount. That is why I embrace purgatory as a concept: it leaves open the door for the salvation of many whom I have loved who did not live Christian lives whilst here. It is also why I am happy to see the Church accept the revelations of St. Faustina concerning Divine Mercy as not being anything that contradicts Church teaching. It fosters hope and increases my love for Him who has such mercy on us ingrates.
LikeLike
I can see the point – but think his mercy less strained.
LikeLike
And I see no strain on His part at all: just infinite compassion and love and a glimpse being given us through His use of Mercy to be able to apply Christ’s Holy Cross to as many as possible.
LikeLike
Debtors prison was a reality. People came out after serving their time. Jesus was clear, when one dies unsaved, there is no coming out of hell. No time served.
Purgatory is just another bad vicious cruel joke put out by whore of Babylon.And billions are gonna go to hell believing their brown scapular(which good bro Servus wears) will keep them from hell.Catholics poo poo the idea of coming to Christ for salvation because they have been told that they will make it to heaven via purgatory. No need to worry. Satan wins.
LikeLike
What does it tell you about a religion where its popes and priests are going to wake up in hell?
LikeLike
Debtors prison was a reality. People came out after serving their time. Jesus was clear, when one dies unsaved, there is no coming out of hell. No time served.
Purgatory is just another bad vicious cruel joke put out by the w of Babylon.And billions are gonna go to hell believing their brown scapular(which good bro Servus wears) will keep them from hell.Catholics poo poo the idea of coming to Christ for salvation because they have been told that they will make it to heaven via purgatory. No need to worry. Satan wins.
LikeLike
I get worried when you agree with me 🙂
LikeLike
I know, it’s scary when he does 🙂
He does have another point, although he overdoes it. If Rome wants the ultimate authority for the church on earth, the ultimate responsibility for it goes with it, as well.
Authority and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. Always has been, always will.
LikeLike
Very true – but as they say, a stopped clock is right twice a day 🙂
LikeLike
Yep, that pretty much covers it. 🙂
LikeLike
“. . . Rome wants ultimate authority . . .”
It doesn’t want anything except to carry the teachings of Christ and the Gospel to the world and save as many souls as possible. The Keys were given to the Church. Men did not beg for them.
Neo, what do you mean by “authority and responsibility” in your last statement. Please advise how we have shirked one or the other or both: unless you refer to the actions of a few (which Bosco is want to do in order to smear the whole). That our leadership has failed Christ at times and will do so in the future is that which Christ Himself said would happen. Scandals must come but woe to him who causes the scandal. The Church goes on and is in continual regeneration age after age. It is like the human body that sloughs off the dead cells and regenerates itself with new cells.
LikeLike
Servus, I don’t expect the Pope to know everything that goes on in the church, anymore than I expect Obama to know what an E-5 in Afghanistan is doing, it’s not reasonable. But when reports on public and come up his chain of command he is responsible to assure non repetition, and so is every bishop, actually, they affirmatively shirked the responsibility. I almost never mention it because eventually they fixed it but it is there. They authorized the continued misuse of their congregant.
The last few Popes have been very good, and the good will of men like Geoffrey and myself is the outcome of that, but if you want authority you get responsibility. You know that, it’s true everywhere, except may the USG lately, and look what a mess that is.
LikeLike
Thank you for making clear what was not in the previous remark. That is true and is where we all shudder. Even though I liked much of the last 2 Popes they too allowed some egregious people to continue in the hierarchy of the Church and some were thanked for their, ahem, ‘service’ to the Church when they were part of the wrecking crew. Another example of mercy without justice, perhaps? And a good reason for the idea of a purgatory to pay for these atrocities.
LikeLike
Yeah, I saw your problem, sometimes I shouldn’t use the commbox, I tend to truncate too much.
They will be judged, and likely with as much mercy as the showed those kids. Which is true for all of us.
We’d be very wise to accept our Grace, and use it to perform works, because in truth, all we disagree about is the order, we believe that to count, works come from Grace and not the reverse. But they will count for something in the judgement.
LikeLike
And Catholics wholly agree that nothing that is done by our actions and effort is accomplished without Grace as well. For it is God Who moves us even to believe or to accomplish anything. When we speak of merit here on earth we speak of our effort to work with that Grace and to abide obediently with what that Grace reveals to us. Since we have freewill, that is type of merit that can be accrued to the individual . Otherwise a zealous saint and a slothful but believing Christian are precisely equal in stature. It is a Communist God then, and it matters not how much we subject ourselves to Grace and how hard we try to please God in this life. We simply say, as any Communist, I accept, and you get the same share as everyone else. That is probably another place where we disagree: that not all the mansions in heaven are alike: that we think that we are given a happiness that is congruent to how much joy we can contain. In other words, everybody in heaven is as happy as they can be. However, saints (in fact all individuals) will have a fullness of this joy and happiness in varying degrees depending on the state of their soul. Obviously an empty vessel can hold far more than one that is only half its size.
LikeLike
Funny, isn’t it? That when we really take it apart, we believe almost exactly the same things. You’d think we were Christians, or something. 🙂
LikeLike
Bosco, doesn’t think so. 🙂
LikeLike
You could have stopped that before the word so 🙂
LikeLike
Good point, my friend. 🙂
LikeLike
You could leave that at, “Bosco doesn’t think” it’s just as accurate 🙂
LikeLike
Great minds think alike … 🙂
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
True brother, true. 🙂
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
I get the feeling that im being made fun of.
LikeLike
Surely not Bosco, where on earth could you get such a notion from?
LikeLike
Errr. . . so much is wrong in this that it would take a full post to adequately answer.
First Christ speaks of the Father many times and the Holy Spirit a number of times and yet He never mentions Purgatory. He states that He is the Son of God and the Son of Man and yet never mentions that His Person is Divine and that He possesses both a full human nature and a full Divine Nature. So what does that mean? That it is not true?
Second you compare the Prodigal Son narrative to His Mt. 18:32-34 narrative as being the same when the stories are not concerning that which is the same: what, for example, would be the state of the Prodigal Son who had repented and suffered greatly but did not return home? Does he go to Hell or does He still need to make a journey back to God as arduous as it might be. You say he needs not exhibit any effort on his part at all.
You also fail to mention other texts that are Biblical that shed light on something: and yet you would attribute the statements to something else: 2 Mach. 12:43-46; Sirach 7:37; 1 Cor. 3:13-15; Mt. 12:36; Rev. 21:27.
You corrupt the Catholic idea of Confession in that you think that Purgatory is where this happens. A component to confession is contrition and hopefully perfect contrition at that. Another component is to fulfill a penance, to satisfy for the injustice (even if it s only symbolic, that one has sinned agains God and is truly sorry for having offended Him.
You embrace God’s mercy which you should and yet you make a mockery of God’s justice: as if there is no need for justice. Christ paid the price of our sin, which we both believe. But other than saying “I believe” and never suffering the pain that is natural for offending the One we are to love with all our hearts, minds and strength, willingly to show an act of perfect contrition. And if we don’t? Is there a state where we can do penance and thus satisfy the Perfect Justice of God and yet receive His Perfect Mercy.
Or in order for us to imitate Christ on earth, are we to now offer Mercy and Restitution in our legal system. The murderer or thief says I am sorry and we say, we forgive you and therefore we let you go. Or do we say as Christians we forgive you but you still must pay a debt to society. It is only a logical and natural understanding of that which was revealed.
LikeLike
Sorry, first sentence 2nd paragraph **Purgatory** should have read **Trinity**.
LikeLike
As I say, Jesus speaks often of Heaven and Hell, and never of Purgatory; that seems definitive. If it existed, the Lord might, indeed, have told the story of the Prodigal as you suggest; but He didn’t, because it doesn’t. We suffer plenty of pain in this life. God’s idea of justice is Christ dies for us; why? Because there is nothing we can do – upto and including eternity if purgatory, to atone for our sins, so how, suddenly, can we atone for our sins in purgatory? That being so, why did Christ doe? God could just have put us in purgatory to pay off the debt.
LikeLike
In the first place (as I said) Christ never explained the Trinity either; and that seems definitive. If it existed the Lord might have told us a parable that united all three within the parable to explain it to us. Same with His 2 natures. The prodigal son narrative was speaking of the love of God and that He rejoices over one that is lost but now is found. His other remarks hinted at Purgatory but you want to conflate the two stories as pertaining to the same thing.
You are right: there is nothing we can do after we die to atone for our sins. We are not in Purgatory to atone for serious sins. It is a free gift of God, a Divine Grace if you will, to allow the dross of our lack of sincere repentance, to be fully and finally satisfied. We can do it here on earth, the preferred method, or we will find that we didn’t finish the job, which is more likely. God will provide the justice that will allow us to enter so that nothing in us will encumber us: “There shall not enter into it (the New Jerusalem) any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination . . .” etc. An unrepentant sin or lack of a suitable penance would seem to me to be an indication that we are not undefiled. You might not believe so — but I do as does the Catholic Church. So we look at Purgatory as a gift not as some ‘other’ hell. Thanks be to God for His mercy that allows Him to temper His justice such that it might win far more souls to Him than if it did not exist.
LikeLike
But He did talk about Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as He did Heaven and Hell; if He had talked about Heaven, Hell, and another place, then the analogy would be correct.
Let us look at what the Apostles said in Acts 16:30-31 when asked what one needed to do to be saved:
30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
No mention here about having to spend time in a debtors’ prison, or about getting time as a favour to finish off the job – we can’t ‘finish off the job’, there is nothing we can do here on earth or in purgatory or any other place – except believe on the reality of Christ and the saving Grace He brings us.
In making the assumption we are not clean to enter Heaven, you implictly say Christ has not thoroughly cleansed us of our sins; yet we are told in Scripture:
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”
We have the gift, the greatest of all – we are free through Him – there is none other, no other name, no other way.
LikeLike
You play one part of Scripture against another arbitrarily. Salvation is not the same as penance. Yes, we come to salvation by love of Christ and accepting Him and if we love Him we will do what He commanded. But to equate this with the scriptural passages I have listed and the one you yourself used is to conflate two different things that, though relevant in our struggle to get to Heaven, are not the same.
LikeLike
I agree – but we do penance here. If not, how could the good thief have gone to paradise without God violating his own sense of justice?
LikeLike
We ‘merit’ from penance here – growing in grace and love. After we die, we cannot grow in grace and love. Therefore, through the mercy of God our imperfections and our lack of penance for the wrongs we committed are granted to us. Without this Gift from God we would necessarily have not other option except hell. Far more are saved by this Grace (of that which you do not believe in) than are saved by those who voluntarily endured the justice and suffering on earth and grew both in God’s grace and in love.
LikeLike
It is this whole notion if ‘merit’ which is wrong. We merit one thing – eternal damnation. If purgatory did what you say, Jesus would have told us about it. He says we are saved and cleansed by his blood. It is that simple. Why do men not believe what Jesus said? He did not say ‘believe on me and, after a time in purgatory, you will be fit for eternal life.’
LikeLike
He did say that those on the broad path can be saved as nothing is impossible with God. It is not binary. I leave it up to the infinite justice of God that is informed by His infinite mercy to establish a path for us.
LikeLike
Amen to that, my friend. What amazes us all is that He loved us first.
LikeLike
Indeed so. May our reactions to His grace be as valiant as we can make them. Christ is worthy of all of our love and reverence.
LikeLike
Amen, Amen. We are not worthy, yet He loves us; let those who can explain that do so 🙂
LikeLike
Mysteries abound and no one will ever sufficiently shine the light on that one. 🙂
LikeLike
Indeed 🙂
LikeLike
One part of the disagreement (certainly not all) between Geoffrey and Servus seems to be contrary intuitions of what the alternative to purgatory is. Geoffrey presents purgatory as an unnecessary complication in a simple process of salvation; in other words, without purgatory, there are the same eternal results (including, evidently, the same inhabitants of both eternal ends), only less suffering for those who receive the Lord’s salvation. Servus, by contrast, argues that without purgatory, fewer people would be allowed into the Lord’s presence, because they would be unfit to enter it, and therefore purgatory is a mercy which allows more people to experience salvation. Thus both the pro and con arguments about purgatory base themselves on God’s mercy, although Servus argues that to abrogate purgatory in the direction of letting everyone in would be to slight God’s justice. Did I get that right?
In my idiosyncratic way, I wonder if purgatory is actually a place, or whether it might instead by an event. I mean, the word “purgatory” isn’t really a proper noun, but simply the Latin “purgatorium,” the place where purgation happens, where sins are purged. And I wonder if purgation might not happen to sinful believers all at once, upon seeing God face to face, and I can well imagine it might be painful, but also swift: the instantaneous recognition of how little we did to please God and how overwhelmingly much we did against God, and yet immediately afterward (by God’s grace) the gratitude, humility, and joy that he has had that much grace on us. But I acknowledge this is mere speculation, and speculation which goes against centuries of medieval visions (whose divine origin I am unsure of). But it would certainly prevent the sort of abuses which became prevalent in the 1400s around the economy of indulgences. Like all my idiosyncratic thoughts, probably wrong and perhaps best ignored.
LikeLike
Actually, Theo, your speculation rather reminds me of “He will wipe away every tear” (Rev 21:4). Usually we take those tears to mean sorrow because of martyrdom, persecution, or the general unpleasantness of life. But that’s a qualification not found in the text itself; I see no reason why they can’t also be tears of regret or remorse for sins of omission and sins of commission respectively.
LikeLike
Not at all, it is an interesting thought.
One of my problems is the purpose of purgatory. If all those let in are, in the end, bound for Heaven, what’s the point? If some of them are going to fail and go to hell, I could see the point, in an odd way.
LikeLike
If one wants to do penance the rite way, one can purchase my very own….Johnpaul the Great Penance Kit. Only $259.95 tax included US reg pat Off, void where prohibited.
Or, one can stand on the sacrifice jesus did on calvary. No penance reguired. All sins are paid for.
Anyone who thinks they have to do anything to get rid of their sin is anti Christ and the love of god is not in them.
LikeLike
Purgatory is neither a place where one works to complete his/her salvation nor waiting place until other can purchase salvation for that person. Scripture refers God as refiner’s fire (Malachi 3:2) who refines some as one refines silver (Zechariah 13:8-9) – this is a reference to purgatory. Those with experience of refining silver will know that they need fire to clear all impurities. Interestingly they know they complete their job once they can see their reflection on it. Recall that the first man, before the Fall, was created in God’s image (Gen 1:26). Why purgatory? Scripture says nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev 21:27). To the Reformers our sins were covered or hidden under by Christ righteousness imputed on us – hence purgatory became alien concept. Purgatory does not contradict Christ finished work on the cross. If that is what you think then you will have problem with Paul statement in Col 1:24 where he wrote that in flesh he completed what is LACKING is Christ affliction. Chris last word on the cross according to John Gospel (John 19:30) has nothing to do with purgatory.
LikeLike
Why, then, does Jesus never mention it? You claim the OT references are to Purgatory, but they are to the Jewish belief in it; the Jews do not believe Christ saves; we do; so why the need for this Jewish belief? Why do you not believe we are washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb? What happens in this Purgatory then? Are we tortured for a while until some angel says ‘that’s enough?’ I think your interpretation of what Paul means in Colossians an odd one, when you say, yourself, that Christ’s work on the Cross finishes things. Why does the Good thief go straight to heaven?
LikeLike
Jesus did not mention Trinity either – there is no single verse in the Bible that says God is One God in three Persons, that formula appeared only in late fourth century AD. I find it ridiculous that you believe what is written in OT is only for the Jews to believe. If that is the case why don’t you rip off OT from your Bible? Just like NT, OT is the Word of God – it is not second class Word of God. Did I write I do not believe we are washed by the Blood of Lamb? You avoid the problem of Col 1:24 in your belief by claiming what II did NOT write!
LikeLike
But He did mention Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Your argument, if I can dignify repeated assertions with no evidence as such, would have sime substance if Jesus had talked of heaven, hell and some other place.
I do not understand how you can read what I write as meaning I believe the OT only for the Jews. What I wrote was that the Jews do not believe in Jesus, therefore they believed there was a third place between heaven and hell because they did not believe in Christ who redeems us; as Christians do, we don’t have to have their belief.
If you think we are washed in the blood, then what was the point of your comment about nothing unclean coming before God? At least try to be consistent, if only consistently wrong. How anyone can suppose Colossians has anything to do with Purgatory is beyond me – provide me with a reasonable commentary which agrees with you. You clutch at straws – Jesus has saved you, just believe. He tells you that, why do you not believe him? You believe him when he says his body and blood are the bread and wine, you believe him when he says Peter is the rock, so why is it so hard to take him literally whan he says all who believe on him will be saved – not a mention of debtor’s prison or being burned with fire, or any other medieval clap trap.
LikeLike
As far as I know the Jews do not believe in third place other than heaven and netherworld or sheol in Hebrews (equivalent of Hades in Greek). OT does not mention the existence of hell (Greek equivalent is gehenna). Does it mean hell did not exist then? OT does not mention Father, Son and Holy Spirit either – does it mean God was not Trinitarian in OT? You simply hand-pick from the Bible what you want to believe and what you don’t want to believe.
I NEVER wrote that Col 1:24 has something to do with purgatory. In your belief once you sincerely believe in Christ as your Lord and personal Savior the heaven is sealed for you – there is nothing else you need to do and there is no need of other suffering (like being cleansed in purgatory) because Christ already did it on the cross on your behalf. Then what Paul wrote in Col 1:24 should pose a serious problem to you. The blood Christ washes our sins – it seems to me you interpret it to mean whatever sins you commit after you believe in Christ will NOT make you lose your salvation. Then you are the one who have problem not only with Rev 21:27 but with Mat 7:21 and 1 Cor 6:9-10 as well! You are quite good in turning the table – so now I turn the table back to you.
As for your inquiry about the Eucharist you are welcome to read my post on this topic (and leave comment) at: http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/the-eucharist-eating-the-flesh-of-christ-and-drinking-his-blood/. Christ gave new name Petros to Simon (Mat 16:18), which in Aramaic is Kephas – Kephas means rock while Petros means small stone. The equivalent of Kephas in Greek is petra but it is feminine noun, in applicable to male. Why don’t you believe if it so clearly stated in the Bible?
LikeLike
Look up the word kaddish and you’ll be better informed on what the Jews believed – and from whence your church derives purgatory.
The OT does not mention Son or Holy Ghost because the new revelation in Christ had not happened; surely that was obvious enough not to require a question which wastes both our time?
You must stop putting words into my mouth. You will not find here, or anywhere else, me saying that once saved always saved. You complain that people have caricatures of what Catholics believe and then offer me caricatures of what you think Protestants believe.
Salvation os a process. I am saved when I receive Christ. I continue to be saved when I walk in his way and receive his body and blood, and I hope, at the last judgment, that he will say ‘well done thou good and faithful servant’; but I am painfully aware that the process could go wrong by my fault, by my most grievous fault. Though nothing I do can gain salvation, I can lose it. So, as I do not believe what you thought, I actually have no problem with any of those verses. Over to you.
If you had taken the trouble, you would have read eslewhere here that I believe that the bread and wine are his body and blood, I just do not believe in medieval alchemy; I aso believe Peter is the rock, so don’t know why you imagine I don’t.
What I don’t believe is that the Pope is the universal bishop, or that everyone needs to be his subject to be saved. Were it possible, which it isn’t where I am, I would be an Orthodox Christian.
LikeLike
Once I attended a talk given by a Jewish Rabbi and he said that Jewish understanding of sheol is close to Catholic purgatory, i.e. there is no hell in Judaism – everybody will eventually go to heaven, some go there directly while others must pass sheol to be purified. You argued that OT does not mention Son and Holy Ghost because it was not yet revealed. Then if OT revealed purgatory (or reference to it, which you also believe how Catholic Church derives purgatory) why don’t you receive it? Isn’t that irony?
My sincere apology for assuming that you believe once saved always saved. I do not caricature Protestant belief – some do believe in once saved always saved. You are the first Baptist (let me know if you are no longer a Baptist because it seems to me you leaning towards Eastern Orthodoxy) I know to believe in real presence. It is not medieval alchemy – where you got the idea? Just because the term Transubstantiation was introduced in 12 century does not make it so. The Trinitarian concept of God was also derived using Greek philosophy. You also believe Peter was the Rock, not many Protestants believe that – they always refer Rock to either Christ or to Peter confession of Christ – again I am not caricaturing them. Scripture nowhere says Pope is universal bishop – just like Trinity it was indeed introduced later.
LikeLike
No, it is using my brain. The Jews, who still do not believe in Jesus, try to derive salvation through purgation; we, who believe in Him, have no such need, and why would we?
I remain a Baptist because that is where the Lord placed me, and he also placed me about 250 miles from the nearest Orthodox Church, and what is more, made me English and not Greek or Russian 🙂
The Trinity comes, clearly, from Scripture, and whilst I don’t deny the influence of philosophy, more recent scholarship (Hurtado and Bauckham) show pretty clearly that John’s Gospel owes its insight to God and not man 🙂
We’re probably not that far apart, so forgive an old man for his occasional asperities. Purgatory and the Pope are all which divide me from Rome, but, alas (and I do regret it) they remain insurmountable.
LikeLike
” there is no single verse in the Bible that says God is One God in three Persons”
Let me guess, good brother Vivator is a cathol. I can usually tell when they say stupid things like that. It shows that what they know about scripture was fed to them by the catechism of some cathol apologetics person. They are in such a hurry to justify satanic teachings of the catholic church, they don’t do a bible check for themselves.
Im not going to bother to find the passage where it says all three are one, because I don’t care enough. But I will say that Jesus was the Father…agreed? Jesus is the Son…agreed? And the NT makes it plain that jesus spirit is the Holy Ghost…agreed? That’s all three in one. But the religious and other unsaved wont get it becase they are carnal. One must be born again to understand the things of the spirit. So, we really cant be too hard on good brother Vivator.
LikeLike
I think we can Bosco, because he believes literally when Jesus says Peter is the rock and the bread and wine are his body and blood; so why is it so hard to believe when he says all who believe in him will be saved?
I guess if that;s the case we don’t need to pay up for time off purgatory?
LikeLike
I wonder if you can borrow money from the treasury of merit (since you can’t take it with you) to buy souvenirs in purgatory from the RC gift shop there. Is there a RC bingo hall there? Does the RC charge a one time fee for the time in purgatory or do they pro rate based on the length of the visit there? Since protestants don’t believe in purgatory will they spend time there because they don’t believe in it ? Will protestants have to convert to get out of purgatory? Or do they go directly to hell? What if your grades on the tests in purgatory were very low? Do you then get sent to hell? If you got to purgatory it seems you don’t have to be in hell if you were unable to jump through the hoops to get promoted. I will admit purgatory may be a good thing because if the ex wife is in heaven or hell it would be better to stay in purgatory.
LikeLike
Being burned in a fire wouldn’t make me love god more. It would make me curse god.
LikeLike
I suspect many of us would react in the same way.
LikeLike
A final thought Geoffrey:
Where do you suppose St. Chrysostom (Archbishop of Constantinople) and St. Augustine of Hippo got their ideas from? Both held to the Nicene Creed and the following quotes are from them – contemporaries to the time of the Nicene Creed.
St. John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407)- “Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice (Job 1:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).
St. Augustine (A.D. 354-430) – “Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment” (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]}.
Did these men conspire to make up a new doctrine?
LikeLike
No, I think that like yourself, they took certain verses to mean certain things which many of us cannot see. Augustine seems to be saying that quite a few in purgatory will go to hell. Is that still current belief?
LikeLike
No. That would negate the purpose of Purgatory: which is to purge us and cleanse us. Why would we need do that to go to Hell?
I agree they (who were separated by many miles) held to this even at the time of Nicaea which we have agreed is something many of us accept. Both did seem to believe in it though. Seems they both received the same belief from their fathers in faith. Actually I only chose two quotes on the subject to share: they each have a number of others.
LikeLike
“Do you not think that those who have denied self and carried their crosses will perhaps be ‘perfected’ by Christ and the Holy Spirit to the extent that they will enter into the Joy of the Lord immediately? I’m sure you do. However, where we disagree is that Catholics believe those who did not can also be forgiven and enter into Heaven, after they also endure the cross that will be given them to bear in Purgatory since they did not do it here.”
I think it is unwise to develop too much theology from parables; however Jesus spoke of some ‘servants’ who on the master’s return were cast into outer darkness where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
He must have been considering the future of some people and some and their future condition. The people he calls servants and can only be taken to mean servants of God, believers who failed in their duty or responsibility. The condition he calls ‘outer darkness’. This cannot refer to either heaven or the perishing in hell.
Jesus did not speak of how progression is made from this state. In the parable of the ‘talents’ (a monetary amount’ He also deals with the issue of rewards at his coming for those who served faithfully.
Greg Boyd a leading evangelical) theologian has expressed belief in a form of purgatory as a developmental/learning process following death rather than a punishment/payment process.
Scripture says very little about heaven and the intermediate state between our death and resurrection and it seems that most have ignored the latter and postulate some eternal ethereal future.
I believe that there will be regret by many Christians and the loss reward (spoken of by Paul) and the Master’s ‘well done’!
I expect dramatic change ‘in the twinkling of an eye’ at Christ coming and also a future life of continual advancement and purification (perhaps stretching into eternity).
Perhaps that is not so far from what ‘SF’ is saying
LikeLike
Rob, sorry. I started a new thread with my response. You’ll need to look at the bottom for it.
LikeLike
It isn’t far and it is interesting to note that many a saint who claimed extraordinary personal revelation (not that this binding to our faith) have described the pain of purgatory as having been given a glimpse of God and denied for a ‘while’ (temporal time is really applicable to them) of the full beatific vision. This withholding of the beatific is a cleansing fire: the fire of love and the pain of separation.
LikeLike
Oh boy, have you backed the wrong horse.
LikeLike