I’ve enjoyed the responses to my recent posts on unity, as they have, as they tend to, thrown up the issues with divide us. These, for me, are few. One is the Pope. Not his existence as Bishop of Rome, or indeed, his having ecclesiastical jurisdiction in the West; it is the novelty of the claim to universal jurisdiction. No matter what the cherry-picked florilegia quoted on ever decent Catholic apologetics site say, Irenaeus did not say that Rome has universal jurisdiction, nor did Augustine, Cyprian or anyone else. They did not do so for a good reason; the Bishop of Rome had no such jurisdiction. Just look at the Canons for Nicaea in 325. Canon 6 could not be any clearer. Rome is the exemplar of the fact that Metropolitan Sees appoint their own bishops, and others should do as Rome does; that is not saying Rome does it for everyone. If you looks at the second ecumenical council, Constantinople 381, out of which the Nicene Creed in its current (Orthodox) form emerged, Rome was not there, it was no invited and the results were not submitted to Rome; indeed when Rome did find out, in 451 at Chalcedon, the Pope got very cross because Constantinople had claimed the title of the second See after Rome, as the city was ‘the new Rome’; indeed, so cross was the Pope that he refused to ratify that canon. So there is, I am afraid, no point in anyone quoting florilegia at me. I say read the history, and if you do, you see Rome mattered a good deal, especially in the West, but it was not the universal bishopric, it was primus inter pares. Its many attempts, which included, of course, forging decretals, including the infamous donation of Constantine, to prove its ‘rights’ actually serve to point up one thing – that it did not have those rights; it also points up that it was not above a bit of forgery to ‘prove’ to the credulous that it did. If it actually had those rights, it would not have needed to resort to forgery. None of this is to say Rome is not important; it is to say that its attempts to claim the sort of importance it has since the Middle Ages has caused a great deal of trouble; a return by Rome, and there are signs of it, to a position more akin to the one it really had in the early Church, would do more for Christian unity than anything else.
Mind you, if it did, then the Orthodox and the protestants would be put on the spot. Many of them claim, as I do, that this is their main beef. I wonder what new excuse they’d come up with if the Pope actually shot this fox? That has to be one of the doubts the RCC has – are the other churches operating with bona fides? After all, long discussions between the Orthodox and the RCC on the issue of the fillioque have effectively shown that the issue need not divide the two churches; but divided they remain. It does not matter what Rome says, there is no one person who can speak for the Orthodox or for the Protestants. So, I’d say the ball was in our court. Rome has shown at least a willingness to talk and give some ground; I have not seen too much of that from our side. We might therefore think about the beam in our own eye before pronouncing on the mote in the eye of Rome.
My only bone of contention is a bias that (on the matter of the papacy) it does not give the same respect for the Church in developing future doctrine or practice. We keep pointing to the Nicene Creed which did not exist for those people who were considered Christians before Nicaea. That would be to say that the Church is right when it defines that which many Christians of various stripes accept and yet those developments and pronouncements henceforth have no weight and are only impediments to the faith; which seems to be a subjective call that within itself shows a certain bias. It seems that there is movement afoot that claims the infallible pronouncements by the Church ended at Nicaea. Is this the apex where the cult of primitivism takes us back to? A return to simpler times is alluring but it negates that ability of the Holy Spirit to continue to lead us to all knowledge and to infallibly lead Christ’s Church into all Truth.
As far as how bishops were elected, it seems to me a practice (not a dogma) that the Church is within Her rights to change in order to keep order, to ensure that the bishops and the pontiff are teaching the same Gospel. Divisions along different cultural or theological lines seems certain and would have been an attack on the very fabric and statement of the Church being ‘One’ that we all say in the Creed.
Understandings change and grow from previous ages and it continues. It unfolds; it is not merely ‘novel’ teaching. If you miss the arguments and the growth of thought and the final pronouncements on issues that concern the Church you see a governance that is lead by something more than men. How could men come up with statements which we should be bound to even though the essence of the matter remains a complete mystery and always will. But we do grow in our ability to find more nuggets of truth and better ways of explaining that which ultimately will not be fully understood.
I think there may be some truth today as to the statement that Cardinal Siri pointed out in 1977 after the big Ecumenical push which violated the very words of the VII documents themselves: creating a false irenicism.
The things Catholics believes cannot throw away that which we feel is as infallible as the words from the 2nd Person of the Trinity; for we believe that the whispers in our hearts and minds to difficulties in the world is being informed by the 3rd Person of the Trinity and deserves as much respect and honor as the former. Below is what Cardinal Siri said in 1977.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/06/catholics-and-ecumenism-considerations.html
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From a certain ecclesiological viewpoint, the selection of the Nicene Creed is not arbitrary, as it is the most recent doctrinal statement upon which all Christians agreed, or rather eventually came to agree. This is apparent when one includes the Christians in the Persian Empire, who apparently only heard of the Nicene Creed in 410, when they accepted it at a council in the Persian Empire’s capital. No other doctrinal statement adopted by the Roman Imperial Church or the post-Roman Latin churches achieved universal adoption among those who were Christians. So speaking on the basis of when we last all agreed could be a good starting point. Or rather, a good basis to assume; we must start with prayer, fasting, and our own repentance of sins which divide us (as the Holy Spirit gives us the grace to recognize them).
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I agree Theo and mentioned the same in a previous remark. A starting point is only that, however. There is little hope that others will allow the decisions that did not include them in our progress through history and not a chance at all that the Catholic Church will ever abandon what it deems has been inspired teaching by the Holy Spirit. So we must find ways to love each other wherever we find each other and work on those things that we can work on and believe together. Other than that, the unity we so desire will continue to elude us.
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Heres a papal claim;
VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis is has come out strongly against the legalization of recreational drugs, lending his voice to the debate which is raging from the U.S. to Uruguay and beyond.
Francis told members of a drug enforcement conference meeting in Rome on Friday that even limited attempts to legalize recreational drugs “are not only highly questionable from a legislative standpoint, but they fail to produce the desired effects.”
Now heres the reality;
Father Riccardo Seppia, a 51-year-old parish priest in the village of Sastri Ponente, near Genoa, was arrested last Friday, May 13, on pedophilia and drug charges. Investigators say that in tapped mobile-phone conversations, Seppia asked a Moroccan drug dealer to arrange sexual encounters with young and vulnerable boys. “I do not want 16-year-old boys but younger. Fourteen-year-olds are O.K. Look for needy boys who have family issues,” he allegedly said.
If the Holy Father legalized drugs, which his priests love, there wouldn’t be so much trouble.
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Once again you tar all priests for the actions of those few who are obviously corrupt. You condemn a farmers field to be burned because you have found some tares among the wheat. You are hypocrite and bigot of the first order.
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I respectfully beg to differ. It is my opinion and many others, who are convinced that perversion and vice is the norm for catholic priests.Come on….really. Its just one thing after another with catholic priests. And its come to light that theres a homosexual cabal that reaches to the highest level of the Vatican.
I fully expect the catholic devotee to “say it aint so”
If the priests of this religion are wicked, what does that say about the redemptive power of this religion? Forget the priests, the Holy Fathers have been much worster than them.
Jesus still stands at the door. His yoke is easy.
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You still lie and continue to smear ALL for the actions of a few.
Here is your logic:
1. Wayne Griffin is a white man,
2. We have viewed that some white men have been homosexuals, drug addicts and murders.
3. Therefore, Wayne Griffin is a homosexual, drug addict and murderer.
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Well, that is close, but the priesthood is limited to a small select few of men on earth.We can use the Mafia. All male members of the mafia have committed crimes and will continue to commit crimes.. Are you all busted up because I smeared all male Mafiosi?
The faithful’s claim that its only a few priests falls on deaf ears. The ones who don’t act wicked but who don’t expose their fellow priests are also criminal’s. So yes, it involves the whole priesthood.
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Wayne Griffin is a guitar player.
Many guitar players are drug addicts.
Wayne Griffin is therefore a drug addict.
is that better?
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Well, yes, that is better and accurate. thanks for sharing that with all of us.
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There is certainly plenty to repent about on both sides. Precisely because no one can speak for all Protestants, I think every move by some Protestants or some Orthodox to ecumenical discussion with the Pope leads others to criticize (I think of the criticism of Evangelicals and Catholics Together, or the fact that “ecumenism” is a dirty word in some Orthodox circles). But there are many Catholics who feel that the papacy doesn’t really speak for them either, as you have observed, and any attempt by the papacy to moderate its exalted medieval and early modern claims leads some Catholics to explore hyper-traditionalist options (e.g. sede-vacantists). Nevertheless, if more of us repent and humbly seek the truth about each other, praying and fasting for unity, then we will give other Christian groups less ammunition with which to criticize, and the cranks can be revealed to be simply cranks. In the meantime, the cranks often serve the useful function of reminding us where significant differences are being glossed over.
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Very true all round, not least on the last point 🙂
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I think you’re right about significant differences being “glossed over”. Many Protestants would tell you that their objection is not simply to the Papacy, but to many of the fundamentals of Catholic religion and her identity claims.
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Yes, I think that is right, alas.
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The above pic is whats called a photo op. Someone runs up and puts a lamb around his neck and snaps a photo.
Bergoglio is not the Good Shepherd. Hes an impostor. And if he doesn’t get saved, he will have the blood of 1.2 billion people on his hands.
Oh, but we did everything the pope and the priests told us to do.
God will say” I never knew you…depart from me.”
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