It is, as Newman commented long ago, plain enough that there are differences between the Church as we see it when it is legalised in the Roman Empire in the fourth century, and what is described in the Acts of the Apostles. This occasions no surprise to any historically-aware person; across that range of time and cultures it would have been astonishing if things had not changes. Some changes were relatively painless but undocumented – no one insisted that every successor to the Apostles should be a Jew, although there was a consensus that elders/bishops should be male; others were painful and documented – Gentiles did not, as it turned out, have to be circumcised or obey kosher laws. The transfer of the sabbath from the Jewish Saturday to Sunday was an especially painful change, as there were many who insisted that it must remain where the Apostles had it; but the Church decided otherwise. However, for many years, there were those who refused to accept this and who alleged it showed that the Church had turned away from the right path; no doubt the ‘men from James’ felt the same. In short, there has always been change and always been those who objected to it.
Nor was this change confined to what one might call the ‘accidents’ of the faith. In many posts here on the Trinity (just enter the term in the search panel and you will find more than I can list here) we have seen that the attempt to understand what St John meant by writing that the ‘Word’ was ‘in the beginning with God’ and ‘was God’ took pious and intelligent Christians in different directions. The Arians thought that because Jesus was the Son, and the Son came after the Father, that Jesus was the first-born of all creation. When Arius formulated that view, supported by many Scriptural quotations, it was not heretical because the Church had not actually come to a fixed view; in fact it was Arius’ teaching of a view which clearly made Jesus ‘a creature’ which forced other Christians to think very clearly about the issue.
This is brought out well in one of my favourite books by Newman, Arians of the Fourth Century. Now, had Arius not been free to enunciate his views, no doubt a good deal of pain would have been averted, but the result of his boldness was to make Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers think carefully about why Arius was wrong. Their long argument with Arianism and its variants were the whetstone on which the doctrine of the Trinity was sharpened. Those who still refuse to accept the Trinity rarely show any acquaintanceship with the Cappadocian Fathers or with Athanasius, and, indeed, some do not know that they are Arians and that their arguments were exploded long ago. To lack a sense of history is to risk repeating what was once not heresy, but is now and will be for ever more.
However, for there to be heresy, there has to be an authority which declare orthodoxy, and for Catholics, this is what Jesus provided for when he gave the powers of binding and loosing to St Peter and his successors. For Orthodox Christians, this power lies with the successors of the Apostles and the Councils, a position which the Catholic Church regards as not going quite far enough as it does not recognise the special place of Rome. But without some authority, who is to say what changes, what developments are orthodox and which are not?
“and loosing to St Peter and his successors”
Where does it say Jesus anoints successors to Peter? Or even implies it?
Catholic view is Peter is rock. Protestant read Jesus referring to rock as himself or the church yet to begin. That’s why Protestants don’t accept popes. Same with word Jesus as temple. Some feel temple is Himself , others say prophesy for temple structure to fall as it did by Vespasian I think it was.
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Even further Carl many of us as Protestants believe the Rock is Jesus but the confession of Jesus as Messiah is the Rock upon which the church is being built. Thanks for explaining to us us non-Catholics Chalcedon what is meant in the Catholic context by “binding and loosing”. It is markedly different from the Pentecostal perspective.
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Thank you, Joseph, glad if it was of use.
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Yes, confession of Jesus as Messiah Rock as well. Agree.
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You will recall that the Apostles think a successor to Judas is necessary and elect Matthias by lot. We know from St Irenaeus that this practice was continued, and for obvious reasons. What would be the point of handing the keys to a vicar only once – that would be to assume that thenceforth the gates of heaven were closed, surely?
Catholics also accept Jesus as the rock, but they go with the obvious reading of Matthew. That reading needs no explaining.
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This is an interesting take, Chalcedon. I have heard it preached in my neck of the woods that the apostles actually over-stepped their bounds by appointing Matthias as Judas’ successor and that Paul was God’s choice as the next apostle. I am not married to that thought but I think it interesting in its connotation.
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An interesting interpretation. I wonder when it came into currency? I can’t find anything in any of the Fathers. It was certainly accepted in the early Church.
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Apostles appointing the most deserving Mathias as replacement sensible. But that is not the same as appointing men as head of Christ’s church as a representative of Christ’s embodiment with a quite manufactured interpretation /directive to do so. As the beginning moves from Petrine to Pauline it seems Paul is rock more than Peter if we attribute rock to men rather than Protestant view rock as Jesus, his future church or the confession of Jesus as Messiah as JOSEPH presents.
I see it coming that it will be posited that a pope holds the keys in behalf of Jesus but if a pope’s rulings are infallible requiring obedience he becomes an extension of Christ in power and authority which cannot be possible. . On the other hand all true Christians become extensions of Christ not in authority but in testimony by daily living His way.
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I don’t see any rivalry between Peter and Paul, they play different roles. We know what Jesus said, and we know how those who knew those who walked with him behaved. They did what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do to this day. The onus of explaining their very different views lies with those who choose not to do so, surely?
I am not very convinced that no one understood these things before a group of Western Europeans in the sixteenth century. At the very least that would argue that God left His Church in ignorance of His real intentions for more than 1500 years.
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C, in my own plebeian way of looking a Paul, I see the first ‘hand chosen’ theologian of the Catholic Church and a help and aid to the Church that has never abated. Theology, especially when informed as Paul was, founded in his deep conversion of heart to the Teachings of Christ, provided a way for the Church to begin to answer the questions that inevitably will always come. It is then open to those who occupy the Seat of Peter to examine all these arguments and then pronounce upon them. Just a personal opinion.
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Paul operated as all Apostles operate. He spoke as he was inspired, and when others disagreed, he would argue with them. Sometimes he won, sometimes not. Peter’s attitude towards collegiality is one which has not always been imitated by his successors, and I don’t think anyone has benefitted from that.
But there must, in the end, be an authority which says to me when no one else can, this is orthodox and this is not.
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Aye without that final test of orthodoxy we do put ourselves in a never ending spiral of division. If within our own, we still find division, it is far worse where every person’s opinion seems to carry the same weight.
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In the end, for me, that was what decided it – ‘by whose authority do you say these things’ – by that Jesus conferred on Peter. Does for me 🙂
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Me too. 🙂
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“. . . if a pope’s rulings are infallible requiring obedience he [the Pope] becomes an extension of Christ in power and authority which cannot be possible.”
Why is it not possible for Christ to appoint a Prime Minister for His Church? Is God unable to do what a mere human king might be able to do? Seems you have hamstrung God to being less than Almighty. And when Christ said He would not leave the Church as orphans was He limiting Himself for simply the first generation of Christians? Does it not seem more likely that Christ has in mind a lasting promise and not one with an expiration date attached?
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SERVUS “a lasting promise and not one with an expiration date attached?” Oh most certainly true ! The promise is that His church in God will prevail at the end of times not contingent upon alleged prime ministers. If his prime minister was Chamberlin, that Austrian guy would have prevailed until the Coming. There are certainly very few (and all questionable) US presidents that could carry that earthy crown and perhaps no human is worthy.
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They need not be worthy, Carl, only validly raised to the position by the Church. We leave the sorting out of the direction and the validation of the Church Teachings to the Holy Spirit that operates most directly through the appointed Ministerial position that Christ established for His Church. In this way, Christ’s Church has a clear way out of any theological or moral divide that occurs in the Church: an authority that can solve the dilemma and put it to a rest. Without the Pope, these problems cause the debate to continue forever or else result in schism from one another.
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CHALCEDON “However, for there to be heresy, there has to be an authority which declare orthodoxy, and for Catholics….”
Yes that is very legitimate but non Catholics have authority, non papal too: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wesley, Roger Williams, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Hooker and the Cottons and Mathers et al.
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Indeed they do Carl. But who gave them that authority – save themselves, and why should any man be bound by the mere word of another man?
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Carl, those with immediate authority (Christ) and mediate authority (Peter) are the only two ways that mediate authority might be passed on. The first act of an immediate authority (a King or one whom no one can argue with their authority) by naming a mediate authority confers the wishes and the authority that the immediate authority wishes to impart. Such an ambassador, in times of illness or certain death, have in the natural world, given their mediate authority to others. Thereby the ongoing passing of the Peter’s mediate authority is natural to our world.
Pray tell, as C mentions, did these other people that you list receive their authority. It is neither immediate nor mediate and therefore it is self-proclaimed and they are self-innaugurated.
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I would suggest that the theologians listed received their authority from the Holy Spirit in their effort to reform the obviously problematic diversions from mission of RCC. If they are inspired by the Holy Spirit they have been chosen by Christ and given the immediate and mediate authority 1500 years later. If they were not given the authority by Christ then they are false prophets and men, as you suggest, have claimed the authority improperly. If they were indeed given authority by Christ through the Holy Spirit they are legitimate authorities. But how do we know ? The ideas of many men in the pre and post Reformation are sincere and in earnest . It seems they have been given additional/continued revelation and seem divinely inspired on a par with Paul although I doubt most would have claimed that defining themselves as mere servants but such inspiration has been attributed to them.
Eusebius defines the heresies and relates the how and why they were heresies and dismissed by the early church fathers. The early church fathers made exhaustive effort to be true to apostolic tradition. I agree with you and disagree with Protestants who think Christianity started in 1500 and agree that some entity has to decipher matters in an effort to keep the faith legitimate and not contaminated by heresy. But every denomination considers all the other denominations heretics and each claims to be the true church. As an aside I think some ideas of the heresies are quite delightful and refreshing alternative views and remain of interest as examples of how these ancients interpreted Christ’s revelation, which by the way kept them on a course of Christian living as not agent of Satan spewing evil sentiment.
But let us move to contemporary political, social, economic and environmental issues that the NT and early church fathers had no way of addressing. How to we live in Christian morality with undressed directive? Men have to discern. If men are discerning things in this 21 Century they are also self inaugurated . Jesus did not address nuclear weapons, for instance. If you believe in popes and apostolic tradition than a pope has mediate authority so RC’s have no problem. If you do not accept apostolic tradition, a pope has no immediate or mediate authority according to Protestants. In both cases the P’s and C’s try to determine things in the Light of Christ. We hope the Holy Spirit invests itself in their minds so it is through Christ and not self inaugurated. As the world evolves this continued revelation must continue to evolve with it, so let us hope the Holy Spirit continues to direct so that no conclusions are self inaugurated. Of course the differences will ever remain between P’s and C’s over who is anointed by Christ and who is not and which conclusions are satisfactory or not.
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Carl, I think you have stated it well. The question that one must ask then, is, if given authority, is there evidence or record of that authority being given to these people? If not, it is not like the God we know from OT times or NT times. If so, then it must be taken on faith and we must assume it to be so: like Bosco, for instance. I don’t think any of the people you listed ever claimed such authority but even if they did, without proof, nobody is obliged to accept it. I personally look for Biblical evidence, which isn’t possible in this case, and if not that, then at least show me some signs and wonders that are undeniable.
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Naturally as I am not divinely inspired to propose signs and wonders may we pray that the Holy Spirit guide us in the Light. Jesus said the signs are all around us so may the Spirit Ophthalmologist condition our eyes. But I betcha I make better cartoons than Paul or Peter and their associates.
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Probably true, but alas we have nothing of their cartoons that survived the ravages of time in order to confirm this. 🙂
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>>>>>no one insisted that every successor to the Apostles should be a Jew, although there was a consensus that elders/bishops should be male; others were painful and documented<<<<<
WRONG!
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Officeholders-Early-Christianity-Epigraphical/dp/0814659500/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396574770&sr=1-1&keywords=ute+eisen
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hidden-History-Womens-Ordination/dp/0195189701/ref=pd_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0WQXWEDKMR2KR867TKNT
Numerous articles by N.T. Wright (who is severely misinformed about Catholic/Orthodox mariology and for that reason can't be taken seriously on anything which means Jesus was also probably not raised from the dead since he also maintains that and very few other scholar holds this as dogmatically he does and his arguments against those who deny it are just simply insults and saying they are "too materialistic" even though the Muslims believe in God and the second coming of Christ and N.T. Wright himself believes in evolution–talk about "materialist")
Also see Ben Witherington III (who I don't know enough to comment on but I'm fairly certain he falls into the exact same or similar camp as does N.T. Wright taking everyone else with suspicion)
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Curses. I’ve been outwitted again.
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SERVUS “Paul, I see the first ‘hand chosen’ theologian of the Catholic Church and …”
Since he writes all those books we read isn’t he the introductory theologian for all denominations? Do you mean Paul is foundation of RCC and RCC has exclusive determinations of his work? Has RCC anointed Paul or did Holy Spirit?
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