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I first met Abi when we were both eight years old. We bonded over that misery known only to the non-sporting girls at boarding school – we were the last two to be selected to the gym teams; we always were. She was short, dark and very intense; I shared only the last characteristic. We often found ourselves in the library, partly because we both loved books, and partly because it was the best place to hide from the rough, boisterous girls to whom we both seemed natural targets. We shared our difficulties. How innocent they were then: getting prep done last thing on a Sunday evening before lights out; that horrid English teacher who seemed to dislike us; the horrors of hockey and the embarrassment of those short skirts. We went to big school together, and shared most things; when my daddy died she was so sweet; I remember she bought me a prayer card with a picture of the Blessed Virgin on it; as she was Jewish I don’t know where she got it from; but I cried at her kindness. We did the same A-levels and shared the dubious delights of applying for University. I went north, she went south, and then on graduation she went to work in Germany, so we did not see much of each other. But we have always kept in touch, and a couple of years ago she moved back to the UK, since when we’ve seen each other a few times. There’s a knowing intimacy to our relationship which means a lot to us both. This morning I received an invitation to her wedding which will take place in July – the card invites me to the ‘wedding of Abigail and Justine’.
A girls’ boarding school is a great place for those of us who want to concentrate on our academic work and not be distracted by boys. Even in the sixth form, Abi and I never joined in the gossip about boys, and avoided the annual ‘prom’; spotty boys with wandering hands were not our thing. Was she gay then? We never discussed it. Like many girls, we would sometimes walk hand in hand, and we would hug each other; she was my best friend, and we shared, or I thought we shared, all our secrets.
So, how to react to Abi’s invitation? Actually I didn’t waste a moment, I bought a nice ‘acceptance’ card and sent it off, saying how happy I was for her, and how much I was looking forward to meeting Justine. That is what my heart said, and I did it. But I am mindful that according to my Church, and I think her own faith, Abi is a sinner. Well, I am mindful that I am too. The difference is that, according to the Church, Abi is an unrepentant sinner, whilst I am trying to repent of my sins.
When I think back, Abi and I were thrown together so much because we were both, in various ways, outsiders where we were Neither of us discussed boys, even when others seemed obsessed with them. I remember her saying more than once that she thought no one would ever love her, and when we met when we were at College, she sometimes spoke of her loneliness and wished we were geographically closer. Now she has found someone to love her, someone who cares for her, and for whom she cares; she tells me her life now feels ‘complete’. All I can do is to shed a tear of happiness for her, and be glad that she has finally found that which she lacked.
How do I reconcile that with what my Church teaches? I can’t. But neither can I not be with my old best friend on what is, for her, a very special day.
[Note: this post was made private because the tone of some of the comments was so awful it seemed best that it should not be public. But I am making it public because a more recent post refers to it. In case any one is interested, yes, I went, and it was lovely. Incidentally, if you are brave enough to scroll through the comments, some of the most ghastly ones went when the man who posted them left this site.Jess.]
I like your thinking on this, Jessica. At the deepest level, we are all humans who need love and acceptance (as well as the redemption of Christ). All of this surface stuff, like which sin we tend to gravitate toward, while not meaningless, should not cut us off from the love and compassion of others. As one of my favorite Facebook memes says, “Don’t judge someone because they sin different than you.”
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I agree Jeff. This isn’t a religious ceremony, and I am not sure what I’d do if it were – but I cannot not be there for Abi when she was there for me 🙂 xx
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it depends on the form of judaism she practices if she even practices. some reformed jews accept gay marriage.
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I don’t think Abi has practised her faith for a long time.
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I like your thinking as well, not least because it parallels my own. Sins are, I think, finally, between one and one’s God, and I’ve found it unhelpful to intrude myself into others lives. I always, give my opinion if asked but see little point to broadcasting it, and see a fair amount of harm in it.
Gay friends? Check. Some of the best men (and a few women as well) that I have known. Sex lives are meant to be between the participants and their God, not in the newspaper, anyway.
And my congratulations to Abi. 🙂
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Thank you, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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Very welcome, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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You get to have it because it happens to be true. Nowhere did I say they were especially proud of it. They are homosexual in the same way I am heterosexual, it is, it’s not talked about at all. I’ve shared my beliefs with them, they disagree (they’re wrong, but I’m not their judge). The only reason I happen to know is because we are close friends, most don’t.
Proud anything, including Christians, are not good people. Our Lord taught us to be humble, not arrogant.
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No, that is personal choice. i consider it sinful, but God is the judge, not me. But their conduct, sinful or not, is not my lookout, it simply doesn’t affect me or my beliefs.
And no, we should perhaps boast of the Lord, we have done nothing to boast of. except perhaps listening to the Lord.
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Perhaps, and yes, that is much my understanding as well. As I have said to them.
And that was my point as well 🙂
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“Who am I to judge?” – I can’t judge the people but I can make a freewill choice to remove myself from being complicit in an act that is considered grave sin.
The implicit appearance of my acceptance of the lifestyle and the direct violation of my faith would prohibit me from attending. Without trying to hurt feelings, I would decline and say that I had other commitments or perhaps simply say, ‘I love you dearly but my faith requires that I not attend a ceremony that denies the tenets of my faith.’ But that’s me. It is a touchy issue and could be even worse if were the ‘wedding’ of a son or daughter. The way Fr. Saunder’s answered this questions is here:
http://catholicstraightanswers.com/can-i-attend-a-same-sex-wedding-ceremony/
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I can see, and understand, all of that, dear friend, but it is not what was in my heart. xx Jess
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Indeed hearts and minds often are at odds. Should a friend invite you to a farewell party (as is happening in Washington State legally these days) at a hospital where she was to be euthanized by her own freewill, would you also attend? My faith, regardless of the ridicule I might get or the hurt that I might call, requires me to respond in certain ways. It is a teachable moment where faith trumps the ways of the world.
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No, I shouldn’t there, because the same heart tells me that that is murder, and I don’t want to be part of murder. But this does not feel at all the same. As I say, I am no doubt wrong, but it just doesn’t seem the same thing.
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And to me two of the four sins that “cry out to heaven for vengeance: are murder and sodomy. We have taken sodomy as moral imperative that has unfolded this teaching into all same sex activities. Therefore, to me they are both considered ‘grave sin’ and therefore, I could not allow my feelings for the person persuade me to abandon the moral imperative. If we are warned to ‘avoid the mere occasion of sin,’ and then put ourselves in a place that gives the impression, rightly or wrongly that we condone the sin then we too are complicit. I just try to be consistent with my faith and sometimes it is hard but nobody said that being a Catholic or any Christian for that matter was promised to be easy.
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It surely isn’t. I guess my problem is also with that s*d*my thing, as, and pardon my naivete, two girls can’t? 😳
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True. But I think that the unnaturalness, the non-complementarian component, and the unfruitfulness makes them the same: i.e. a sham of what marriage is and what it means. It is not healthy for the mind, body or soul of those made in the image and likeness of God.
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I can see that, dear friend, and agree; but the heart is what Jeremiah said it was I guess.
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Such as this: “I have forsaken my house, I have abandoned my heritage; I have given the beloved of my heart into the hands of her enemies.” 🙂
Sorry, I couldn’t resist, dear friend. Jeremiah and almost everywhere we can find many a quotation dealing with the heart. 🙂
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I was starting to feel lonely here, QVO. 🙂
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🙂
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Agree with QVO. I was in a similar situation last year with a close friend, though not as close as what Jessica describes as her friendship with Abi. I had to take him out for a coffee and explain that I could not attend his faux “wedding” to his longtime partner.
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I can understand that so easily, and I suspect that if it were anyone but Abi, I should find an opportunity to explain – but for so many years we shared everything, that I cannot here. But I hope that it is an opportunity for witness that has been given to me; I shall endeavour to treat it as such.
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“I am mindful that according to my Church, and I think her own faith, Abi is a sinner.”
We are all sinners.
Isn’t is a case of ‘love the sinner and hate the sin’…but what is ‘the sin’ here? Is it sinful to be married to another with the same sexual bits and pieces? I don’t think the church teaches that. Or is it going back once again to imagining what people get up to in their most intimate moments. That might just be a kiss and a cuddle where’s the harm there.
I wish all those getting married the very best of God’s love on their special day and for ever more.
Amen.
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There must be, surely Struans, or why does our Church not allow such marriages in Church?
I can’t make my way into this at all, I just know how I felt and feel.
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An aside: How does a same sex couple consummate their marriage? Is it considered valid and if not, is it grounds for a divorce?
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Thank you Jess for sharing this. This issue brings fear to those of little faith, as Neo stated ” Or is it going back once again to imagining what people get up to in their most intimate moments.” If I worry too much about what I perceive as a sin in others and do not work on my sins then what good have I done. NONE!!! I must present the same honest patient love that my Saviour has shown towards me and my failings towards others and always remember “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there are NONE perfect, no not one.”
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That’s how I feel, but I am willing to be told I am wrong.
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I still have problems accepting the criticism of others, yet I have improved in this department, because even my enemy can help strengthen me.
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A good attitude, my friend 🙂 xx
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QVO who are ya talking to? If you are saying that I am committing the sin of complicity, then how do I extract myself from this dilemma? I can not judge, that is not my place, and I refuse to withhold the same love that my Lord, Saviour, and King Jesus Christ has bestowed on me. If I were to go forth and tell everybody how they have sinned, warning of His judgement against them and forget that the same judgement awaits me also, then I am not completely following His commandments, and I am a hypocrite. If I do not warn others then I am accused of complicity, damned if I do, damned if I don’t. So what is your advise, how do I find the middle ground in this?
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Thanks for your input QVO, I do follow a form of the advise you have given, yet the sin of complicity is a thorny issue. We are communicating by a means that is also being used by the evil, and has been proven to lead people to hell. By using this means of communication I must pay for it, so my money is being used to help support evil. Is this complicity?
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A part of me likes that reply, and yet there are still doubts in my mind. Thanks QVO.
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Let me just say that I hear the call of my Lord coming from Mount Athos and leave it at that.
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QVO I do not see that in what I have been studying, to be exact it was Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain that helped in preserving the writings of Father Lorenzo Scupoli. I would suggest that you read what I consider Fr. Scupoli’s greatest work called “Unseen Warfare”, it really helps in the struggle.
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I have been told something similar from an Orthodox Priest, yet to you he is on the wrong side of the Tiber.
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“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” is the way I am taking it. Is that what you mean?
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Thanks QVO, I will consider your replies.
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I’d be interested in your arguments against the ones in the link in my latest post.
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If you’d stop being so self-righteous and learn from SF how to deal with people who have difficulties you might one day be useful to God. Saying ‘you revolt me’ just makes me think you are an idiot who does not understand. Which part of I am genuinely trying to get my head around this do you even get to first base on understanding? Thank God you are not a teacher – you like to talk but seem bad at listening. That saddens me, because you are a good man, who more often than not comes across as a sounding brass.
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Yes, you are wrong. In the first place, despite your ludicrous attempt to redefine it, sodomy cannot take place between women. In the second place I am torn between my heart and head, as anyone able to read a text could see.
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I will take your word for it.
I agonise because I do. Your reading seems not to help.
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Thank you, and your arguments on the last one were helpful.
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I think we often forget that Christianity itself is a dilemma. We are so intent of the peace and love aspect of our faith that we sometimes forget that sometimes peace and love cannot exist between certain principles that people adhere to. We strive to exude love to the people which is proper and fitting and yet we often do the same to that which is opposed to the principles and teachings of our Lord and His Church. We need be reminded more often, I think, of the little quoted passage from our Lord from Matthew 10:
“34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.
37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.
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“Care bears countdown” “5 4 3 2 1!”
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Not an easy situation to be in. I would have come to a different decision (i.e., stayed away), but then I’m not like Jess, who radiates kindness.
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Thank you, darling eccles. I did talk to Abi, and she understands, and sent me a link to something she thought might help me think about it. xx 🙂
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For goodness’ sake, where is the malice? This is someone I have known well since we were both 8, and I am genuinely perplexed – and that’s your comment?
SF helps, you just make me want to say to the blazes with it, I’m going. You must be the most tone deaf person I have met if you think your way of witnessing does any good. You come across as an unrealistic, self-righteous prig. I know you are not, because I see where your heart is – but how many have that love and patience, and how many tune out and think Christianity of the kind you seem to espouse is not for them?
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Oddly enough, and clearly unlike you, I have spent very little time thinking about this issue, so when my best friend so rings this on me, it disturbed me. Whatever you read at University, it clearly was not a subject which required close reading of texts, as you bring your eisegesis to my comments.
Most women reaction to a bit of pompous male self-righteousness is to laugh it off and do the opposite.
If I didn’t care about the truth I would not be praying and pondering and reading. How swiftly you have abandoned trying to use reason – do you actually find that anyone listens to you when you mount your soapbox?
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No, I don’t know it will be complicity. Should I go it would be because I love my friend and it would make her happy if I go. I am not in the slightest excusing anyone or anything. As for sodomy, oddly enough, it is not something I often ponder.
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In the eye of those engaged in it in this case to make a firm commitment of fidelity and love to each other – and the feast celebrates that.
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I care enough about the truth to try to work my way to it. You are as much help as a chocolate tea pot in a heat wave.
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And if I say it is not, then that, too should suffice – as it should to anyone with the sensibilities of a gentleman.
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No, you have, as so often, made me wonder what God it is who fits the curious contours of an over-narrow understanding of the Christian Faith.
This God you have bent to the shape of your mind is sending me to hell because he has failed to give me the Grace to see that the claims of Francis, bishop of Rome, are valid. He has given me a local pp who loathes Marian veneration, and who did not want me when I wanted to come. For this, I go to hell. So too do all who do not believe as you do.
This is the God Dawkins calls a psychopath. I would not condemn someone to burn in hell for being a Copt, but your God does? Really, so he is not as capable of mercy as me? Do you really believe that? Are you sure it is not the Devil you worship?
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No, still see no malice in that.
As my friend is not a Christian, you would see her as lost anyway. How is my going to her wedding going to make that worse for her? If your God is sending me to hell for going to a friend’s wedding, well, I think you think he is sending me there for being in the C of E anyway. All these things being so, I am clearly going to hell in your books anyway.
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I agree, and one day you will see why SF is a good Catholic and you are the pub bore.
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In so far as it ever crosses my mind, I am against it, but then I have never thought about the female equivalent, or thought it sodomy, but I am clearly naive.
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This is a case of conscience, QVO, and you would do well to give Jess space to pray about it and to discern what her conscience is telling her. After making a reasoned case for the Faith, there is no reason to berate someone if they have taken it seriously and have submitted themselves to prayer and discernment. Silence in the heart and peace in the soul speaks much louder than your condemnations to the ears.
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Thank you, QVO.
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GO AWAY QVO! YOU’RE PREVENTING AUNT JESS FROM BEING A MINISTERING ANGEL!
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QV is doing what he thinks a Christian should do; he acts according to his conscience, and I to mine. The difference between us seems to be that I feel no urge to hurl insults at others and he has that urge.
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GREAT! THANKS TO YOU, QVO, OUR AUTHOR GOES TO BED WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS MY QUESTION SO NOW I HAVE TO WAIT AT LEAST ANOTHER GOD-AWFUL 8 HOURS BEFORE I HEAR AND IT COULD BE MORE LIKE ANOTHER 18 HOURS! I HOPE YOU’RE HAPPY THAT I SUFFER, SATAN! GLORIFY YOUR SERVANT, QVO, O LORD SATAN! AND BRING ME DOWN TO HELL WITH YOU WHERE GOD HAS FATED ME!
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QVO! DO YOU KNOW HOW INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT IT IS TO HAVE TO WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO ANSWER A QUESTION YOU ARE UNCERTAIN OF THE ANSWER TO AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WILLING OR EVEN CAPABLE OF ANSWERING THIS QUESTION AND THE ONLY REASON YOU ARE WAITING FOR THEM IS BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING TIED UP BY A PESTILENT, OVERLY ZEALOUS RELIGIOUS PERSON!!!! IT’S FREAKING ANNOYING!!! YOU ARE DOING THE DEVIL’S WORK!!!
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newenglandsun:
Infuriating, isn’t it, when your CAPS LOCK key gets stuck down, you type a comment ENTIRELY IN CAPITALS and you post it without noticing, so that everyone thinks you are screaming? It makes you feel so silly, doesn’t it?
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my caps lock key wasn’t stuck down. i meant what i meant and i decided to scream it. if people thought i was screaming that is good because i wanted them to get that impression.
AND I POSTED IT WITH NOTICING! AND SINCE I AM ACTUALLY MODERATED, IT WAS ACTUALLY APPROVED PRIOR TO IT SHOWING UP!
now who feels silly?
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Well done. I thought you were going to need a new keyboard.
P.S. Didn’t read the bit in capitals.
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Jess: I can appreciate your dilemma and although I agree fully with SF that both homosexual acts and suicide are grave sins I would not respond in the same way.
For me there would be no clash between my head and my heart I would attend the ceremony in support and out of love for my friend, while this would in no sense indicate my support for their actions.
I discussed the issue with my wife and we both agreed and just do not see a dilemma here.
Jesus associated with sinners and was constantly criticized for doing so and we have no ground to suppose he excluded certain types of sinners.
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You make the point I was trying to make much better 🙂 x
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A gay friend should allow for religious belief in others; those who don’t, aren’t friends. Using guilt over “friendship” to manipulate someone against sincere religious belief is no act of friendship, seems to me. And for a Jew or Christian, attending a gay “wedding” is a scandal.
The creator supplies homosexual people and Scripture says it is not good for man to be alone. Competent adults can contract and the State can add legalities as it wishes but they aren’t and can’t become canonical weddings ….
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