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Our friend quiaviderunt has something against Pope Francis because he has said that the Jews can be saved, and because he has been at a Jewish religious service; he tells us, as though it were something to be proud of, that no real Pope would do such things. I know that Chalcedon has written here on the early history of so-called Christian anti-Semitism, showing how complex it was, and how much it was bound up with the rivalry between the Christians and the Jews in places such as Alexandria, and I accept that. But once we reach Western Europe in the Middle Ages, the Jews were no such danger, and yet the Christians, by now in a position of great power, treated them abominably; nor is this stain Catholic alone, Luther had some pretty terrible views, and anyone who thinks that the teachings of the Churches about the Jews had no effect on twentieth century anti-Semitism reveals their ignorance.
The idea that John Paul II somehow betrayed Catholic tradition is an odd one, if that tradition was to hate Jews, then he did, as he did not hate them. It is revealing that just as the extremists in the Catholic Church criticise John Paul, so do extremist Jewish groups which see him as simply providing a more palatable way of repeating the old allegation of deicide. What John Paul did was to continue what Vatican II did, which was to cleanse the Augean stable.
There is a type of Catholic, just as there is a type of Baptist, who will scream loudly that his church has done nothing wrong; with such ignoramuses even education is unlikely to prevail; suffice it to say here that the Catholic Church itself has apologised for the attitudes some of its members have held towards the Jews, and in Nostra Aetate it did a very brave and necessary thing by clarifying once and for all the relationship which should subsist between the two Abrahamic faiths. The language, as ever with Vatican documents, is carefully chosen and it does not say that the Jews are saved. It does say that:
The Church … cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)
We are told that ‘God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.’ It is unequivocal on one important issue:
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Ah, but I will be told, the Jews (which Jews we are never told) are against Christ and Christians. So what? Where does Jesus say that those who hate us we must hate back? I sometimes wonder where some of these extremist Catholics get their views on conduct from; not Jesus.
Of course, the extremists will say that Francis is no Pope and Vatican II no Council – well they are very welcome to stay with their vile views on Jews and at least the barmy bishop Williamson is honest when he admits he denies the holocaust; he may be the one honest man among them. Personally, I have no idea who will be saved, but know we are told that salvation comes only by Jesus. So if Francis believes otherwise, I believe he is wrong, but unless he was speaking ex cathedra that view is a personal one, and in that capacity he is not infallible.
But I prefer Francis’ attitude to the mean-minded medievalism of those who criticise him. But then I know a lot of Jews, and I doubt the critics get out much beyond their computer screen.
In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
Only amongst the unsaved does anyone care what religion one is.
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“Prehistoric Jesus (129,287 BC – 129,263 BC [atheistic scientific mistake–the world is 6,000 years old]) was a Neanderthal Frenchman living near modern Givors who is most noted for inspiring the Original Jesus’s performance of live carpentry performance art, carving exquisite prehistoric marijuana pipes and being one of the first music promoters.
“He is also known for creating the first historical evidence of fliers for musical performances and his uncanny ability to carve [dinosaurs onto stone]. He is considered the first member of The Carpenters to charge money for performances and the reason performances of The Carpenters are not considered performance art by most thinking people today.”
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Got anymore of that Panama Red?
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what panama red? i’m simply citing the greatest scholarly source ever known to mankind–it’s peer-reviewed too.
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No matter what one calls themself, i invite them to meet the Christ. He stands at everyones door…Muslim and Mormon, Jew and Catholic. Mine and yours.
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That person doesnt know Christ? You must be smart.
Everyone is born not knowing Christ. No one knows Christ until one opens the door and meets Him. No matter what religion one is, one doesnt know Jesus until one meets Him.
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and i thought bosco was the only clown…turns out you’re both clowns.
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I’m coming round to your view that they are the same person; the alternative is too scary to comptemplate – there are two utter barmpots here.
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Yes, great moment in history. The creator came near to his greatest prophet, both in the womb, no sight needed. Ive said all along, that sight is not needed. We wrestle in the spirit world.
But putting salty water on a baby doesnt make that baby know Jesus. After all, good brother Himmler and good brother Hitler were both baptized and went to catholic religious schools.One person cant make another person saved, eg. by putting water on them. Each person has to to ask for salvation and want it. Like good brother Jimi Hendriz says…Im the one who has to when its time for me to die”.
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This wont make any sense to you good brother, but respectfully im going to put it forth….Baptism of the Holy Ghost is what gives one a new spirit. Water baptism does nothing but is a outward show. Did the people that good brother John baptize receive the holy spirit? No. But they showed that they were expecting the Messiah, their God, to come. The holy ghost wasnt given to men yet. No one was born again at that time. Neither does baptism confer the holy ghost now. The unsaved are blind to the new testament and its spirit of salvation. They can talk and theologise about it, but they are on the outside looking in, and have no idea what its like to know the Holy One of Israel. They can only guess. And between you and me…they are bad guesses.
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My brother, nowhere in scripture is these 7 sacrements. Jesus would have mentioned 7 things to do for salvation, but he didnt. All that does is amount to a works religion. One needs to meet Jesus , then one will understand salvation, because one is now saved. Cant understand something one doesnt know .
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My friend, you think water baptism confers salvation. Do you want to know the truth? Ask Jesus to show you the truth. He said that He is the truth and the life. Ask Him to show you the truth. Dont ask men or what men say. Ask the creator, he knows best.
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Yes, scripture does say something close to that. Its a sorce of confusion Satan uses.
In the words of John the Baptist…One comes after me that will baptize with the holy ghost.’
Good brother John baptized with water, but Jesus baptism was needed after that. This is not for the unsaved to understand. I repeat, one must be born again. Born again…tough subject. One cant understand unless one is born again. Try it, youll like it.
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You said 7 sacraments are needed for salvation, now you say baptism confers salvation. If you will be kind enough to show me where 7 sacraments are in scripture? Thanks in advance.
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Ordinarily, God imparts His grace by means of the sacraments; this is why He established them
True, you didnt say 7. So, how many did you have in mind? Not that i care. I just follow the Lamb. I leave works and 7 dwarfs and do this and do that to the unsaved.
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Well, salvation, according to you, is kinda complicated. The CC says there are 7 sacraments and it says we need them all. Now whos been a bad catholic? You are supposed to tell me i need all 7 of them, even though priests and nuns get only 6. Oh how complicated man made religions can be.
Jesus yoke is easy and his burden is light.
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Well said Bosco – but do you not know that unless you memorise the whole Catechism and hate all heretics and Jews, the kingdom of heaven will be closed to you.
QV is your sort of Catholic – a narrow-minded bigot. You are his sort of non-Catholic, an ignorant buffoon – what a pair you make.
Do you think any reader of this blog would be brought closer to Jesus by reading the pair of you? For shame – go help bring someone to Jesus and stop driving them off.
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Good brother Jeff, if i became catholic, i would be ten times more intolerant than good brother Quiav is. I would follow the catholic line down the middle. Good brother Quiav is a piece of cake. When i do something, i do it rite. The catholic dogma calls for the cruel death of all heretics. These namby pamby feel good catholics are ashamed of the real catholic teachings. They claim that its not dogma. Only the nice teachings are dogma, not the cruel ones. The ones that put millions on the stake to be burned to death. If they are shamed of their religion, they should find another religion. VII tried to put a sheeps clothing on their intolerant religion by unbanning the bible and allowing everyone into heaven. Anything to keep its flock enslaved. A new paint job, that outta do it. A smiley face on a ravenous wolf. As we see in the daily news, the wolf is still devouring much flesh.
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We’re told by so many that this or that group can’t be saved. I wonder just how they know this and why they feel they have to make this judgement? I think we all know what our Lord said about judging and being judged.
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He said to make righteous judgments. If we didnt judge anything, we would believe any spirit that comes along.
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Thank you good brother Quiav.
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Why do you folk always miss the forgiveness parts of what the Lord Jesus said.
Jesus would repudiate the pair of you – the blind leading the blind – and that ditch is full of fire.
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I forgive you all the time good brother Jeff. Even though names dont hurt me, so much.
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Just to clarify. I didn’t say we shouldn’t judge anything. I did say that judging the state of anyone’s soul is not something we are entitled to do, that should be left in our Lord’s hands.
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If one knows the Lord personally, one can tell if another knows the Lord because he can hear the voice of the Lord. The holy spirit isnt the author of confusion. The saved can tell if someone doesnt know the Lord by his lack of the Lords voice. If not, how would the saints gather and commune? Impostors could abound, but they cant.
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The only Lord you know is the lord of this world, who stokes up the bile in you. You know nothing but hatred and lies Bosco – when the Lord comes he will tell you he has never heard of you.
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If I might intercede without tossing fusillades at QVO, I would admit that there is a real issue at stake which is worthy of some debate: our loss of the sense of scandal or impropriety.
To take it to the extreme, there are none here that would worship with a primitive islander that still offered child sacrifice to the gods. I said it was extreme – but that is extreme enough that we all see the impropriety and the scandal involved. The closer a religions comes to being considered a ‘mainline’ religion the more apt we are to give it a pass.
Now, what did the early Church condemn. First, it removed itself from the Jewish Synagogues and why: because of the scandalous notion that they were still Jews of the Old Rite: the Law.
Also, to the many early Christian converts, they were told not to participate in pagan worship and not to even eat of any foods that had been offered to their false gods. Again it seems a matter of scandal and impropriety: a mixing of Truth and falsity. It wasn’t because the food itself had become unfit to eat by any earthly measure.
I believe we have moved far from the awful days that your remind us of, Geoffrey and I am too am very glad for it. However, it is with some sadness that I have witnessed a Catholic Pope, kiss a Koran, get the eye of the tiger applied to his forehead and yes, to perhaps give the impression that it is OK to conflate the Jewish faith with the Catholic faith in a public way. That, it seems to me, is a loss of the sense of scandal which I think is worthy of discussion. It seems that ecumenism is best done in conferences with other faiths and let us leave the worshiping together to another day when we actually come to possess the same faith. Love one another, yes, Concelebrate each other’s worship (or give the impression to do so), I find troublesome, though not to the point where I might cry out ‘heretic.’.
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Well, I was just reminded of the words of the great Dietrich Von Hildebrand from his book, The Devastated Vineyard that: “The attitude which goes with true ecumenism involves sympathetically emphasizing the elements of truth in other religions while clearly rejecting the errors they contain.” One cannot but wince at the appearance (even if false) that the two are co-equals.
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I would want chapter and verse for the statement that the early Church removed itslef; they were chucked out, which isn’t the same thing.
I’m not a fan of the Koran, or the idea that Muslims worship the same God as we do; but I see something different with the Jews. Of course their faith is not ours, but trying to understand ours with no understanding of theirs is not an easy thing.
I don’t know anyone who thinks worshipping with a Jew makes you a Jew; it seems to me straining to find fault. Of course your Pope is a Catholic, that being so, if he wants to extrend a hand of friendship where others have not, that’s a Christ like act, surely?
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Appearances matter to people of faith and I maintain that it is a subject worthy of debate. Since I am a qualified curmudgeon, I can take no other point of view than raising an eyebrow when something looks odd to me. I would that I were a bobble-head that could listen to both sides of an issue and agree with both but alas I usually find fault in both. 🙂
I wonder if an Hassidic Jew would allow Pope Francis to even enter their synagogue? Just another curmudgeonly thought that crossed my mind. I am not sure that these acts do anything but stir up controversy on both sides of the aisle.
I wonder if a single Muslim or a single Christian changed their view of one another due to the act of kissing the Koran; except that the Muslims saw it as a victory over Christ and the conservative Christians saw it much the same way?
I like ecumenism in forums such as AATW or in conferences and meetings but there are times when the appearance of an act might bring with it quite a bit of misunderstanding and confusion. Why then, allow such confusion to happen and weaken the beliefs of followers and why create the controversy?
You may have a point about the scriptural message not explicitly being made but then again I cannot imagine that many were going to Temple anymore or to Synagogues. But surely, they denied the Old Rite and the submission to the Laws of the Pharisees. How could they continue going, even if they were not persecuted? I think the die was set – and the leaders from the start were the Apostles not the Sadducees or the Pharisees.
I am all for a hand of friendship to all. I guess I am against the idea that the only way to extend that hand is in an act that might be construed as syncretism.
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No, an Hassidic Jew would do what QV does, lack charity and judge on appearance; my old ma used to say two wrongs don’t make a right, nor do they.
What looks odd to me is followers of a crucified Jew persecuting Jews; what looks odd to me is followers of a religion whose God is love hating on Jews; that looks odd. What looks good is Christans extending the hand of friendship to our elder brothers in the faith. They will not come to know the Son by being persecuted – were that the case it would have happened long ago.
The Jews will come to Christ through being shown love. I cannot see how anyone with three working brain cells can have their faith disturbed by a Pope in a synagogue; has anyone ever met such a person?
We known from St John that Christians were shut out of the synagogues, and from Jewish sources that this was so; that suggests Christians were going to the synagogues. Much of our ritual comes from jewish sources, as you know.
I am as curmudgeonly as the next fella, but you’d have to want to construe what Frank did as syncretism to do so.
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First, I am not speaking up for persecution or hatred of anyone. How is being involved in ecumenical dialogue not enough of a sign that the ‘war’ is over between us? Why do we also need participate in one another’s worship? Benedict did no such thing. Was he a hater? Was Paul VI, who wrote Nostra Aetate, a hater; for he did not do such things either?
I once had a priest who was having an affair with a parishioner and most people knew it. He had her ascend the altar and act as an Extraordinary Minister. The appearance of her was a scandal as was he. The faithful didn’t say a word; I guess they had gotten used to the idea of scandal. It wasn’t until the father of the girl wrote the Bishop that he was removed. I think to some extent we are all starting to think that the further we bend over the more tolerant and loving we are: like Obama and the Sheiks.
There is no hatred in trying to keep our faiths separate. They wouldn’t want a watered down faith anymore than we would. The point is that the ‘appearance’ is of a ‘false irenicism’ which VII warns us of: the appearance of peace between Truth and error. There is none: only the peace of loving them for the Truths that they do hold and respecting them for their strongly held beliefs.
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Talk to any Hassididc Jew and you’ll find they think ecumenism is syncretism and designed to wean Jews away from their heritge. Why would they think that? Because two thousand years of persecution is not wiped out by a few years of talking. You jusge, my friend, from our side of the fence, and it we are to judge right, we must walk a mile in the shoes of theother man.
You do not hate, neither do I, but to ignore the fact that for two thousand years many Christian have hated, is to miss why gestures are needed as well as words.
I have not seen Francis or anyone in authority say that we are one. Who says anyone is trying to create an appearance of unity? Has anyone ever said that?
It is like the idea that there is some one somewhere so brain dead that he thinks that a Pope in a synagogue means that the Pope is worshipping as the Jews do; we were given brains and God expects us to use them.
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Well I guess I am brain dead because I saw in the “appearance” of Obama a submission to a nation that is far inferior than the nation he represented. Words are not always necessary to convey a message: whether we understand them rightly or wrongly they are still projected as a statement.
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I can’t see how Obama is relevant to a discussion of the Pope. We know that the Pope believes in something; we know Obama believes in nothing 🙂
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Sure he does. He believes the US is a horrible, unfair country and that Marxism is much fairer. He believes in the redistribution of wealth and for forcing abortion and contraception on everybody in America. I could go on . . . and on . . . 🙂
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You give him more credit than I do, I think he is a weak puppet without even the merit, if such it be, of actually believing the nonsense he spouts 🙂
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Well you have a point. Valerie Jarrett pulls the strings among others. 🙂
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That would be my reading – he’s the real Manchurian candidate – from Kenya 🙂
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Could be something to that. 🙂
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I really do fear that is close to the truth. Why’s the fella spending a fortune on keeping his colleage records secret if he’s got nothing to hide. I think that that was the one part of the thing which his masters forgot about, but they have spent a fortune making sure he stays in power.
Of course, he could just be a Bill Clinton without the talent, but there are too many odd things about the man. Never trusted him, and never understood why the Reps put up such weak numpties against him.
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Because corruption abounds in both parties, I’m afraid. I quit giving to the Republicans when they paid off Bob Dole for his loyalty by making him their candidate. Thus it goes . . . 🙂
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No it isn’t. You are saying you have greater discernment of these things than your own Church, a statement of such astounding arrogance that I can only assume you have never heard of the word humility.
What is special about the Jews? Oh let us see. Mary was a Jew, Jesus was halff Jewish, the Apostles were Jews, God gave the Ten Commandments to the Jews, most of the early Christians were Jews – yes, I’d say that’s special – oh, and we use the Jewish writings as our Old Testament. If you read the Bible, you will see that Our Lord does not criticise all Jews, just the self-righteous priggish sort – your sort.
You just don’t get it do you? Jesus criticises those who take on themselves his prerogative of judgement – something you do. You will be judged, and I should not want to be in your shoes when you are – your lack of charity and love makes you a sounding brass.
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You asked what made the Jews so special, I pointed it out; what’s your problem with that?
I’m calling you out for being a disobedient Catholic. Your last five Popes have agreed with what Vatican II says, and according to you you have to agree with a consensus – but in your pride you judge them – and for what, so you can go into the cave of Addullam with a bunch of fruit-cakes like the anti-Semitic Williamson.
You keep cmpany with flea-ridden moggies and you’ll get fleas.
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A serious scholar? That, even for you, is surely a joke. His views on the holocaust are a disgrace, and no humane man could hold them.
Which Church did you swear to believe in – the one you make up from old books or the one most Catholics belong to?
Your position brings you deep unhappiness; that seems to be a terminal difficulty.
Out of interest, what’s the longest you have stayed in one denomination before you decided you were wrong about them, and then decided you were right about another one, before, of course, realising you were wrong – again?
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And yet you jusge me a heretic – well, I have served the Lord where he put me, and in the same place since I was 15 – nearly sixty years ago.
When you manage ten years without falling out with whoever leads whatever church you are in, then you may begin to know what it means to be part of a Christian community. I pray it will be so, but you need, badly, to understand what 1 Cor 13 means – and act on it.
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Lie to me, don’t make me laugh. A man who doesn’t know where his precious magisterium is hiding and who says the last five Popes were anti-popes? You’re grip on reality is so tenuous, you can’t recognise the Truth when He presents Himself to you. You presume a good deal in thinking if you died tomorrw you’d be in heaven; all that dogma and doctrine won’t save you; God does not have a tick-box list. He is love, and you have none in you. You don’t need your Church, you need to open your heart of His love. The end is not near, save for each of us, who may indeed die at any time (and I am a deal nearer that I suspect at my age). All a fellow can do is to love his neighbour as himself and love God, repent and follow Jesus. Not all the learnining in the world, not a complete mastery of every dogma ever produced is necessary for salvation; am open and a contrite heart is. When you acquire those you will be closer to God; as long as you try to fit Him into you little box marked “this is the Catholic Church”, and as long as you try to conjure Him out of a book of rules, you will continue to find He eludes you.
Is this harsh? Yes, but if I didn’t care about you, I shouldn’t bother. I do, and I think you an admirable fellow is so many ways, but I think yuour zeal and your mind-set are taking you away from where God wants you to be – which is to be loved by Him as you are. he knows you repent of your sins; that’s enough. Take care.
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From what i gather about american Jews is this; They dont even believe in a god. I almost married a hebrew. Most of them believe that all they are here to do is make life better for the next generation. That when they die, they just vanish…no heaven, no hell. Lots of em dont even want to talk about god. Even in Israel, they dont care about god. The ones who do attend services, they dont even have any one idea about god or why they even go. Most are old and they force the young to tag along. My girlfriend never once went to temple, and neither her parents, but they insisted on a jewish wedding.
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You could say the same things about most non religious folk Bosco – but did you ever meet with Jews who believed? I guess not, because if you did you’d know they love God. They don’t get it right, but they do love.
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Nah, Geoffrey, Dan Hannan has it right. He wasn’t born in Kenya; he was born in Brussels, the offspring of 2 EU bureaucrats. Nothing else could explain him. 🙂
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I used to play chess with a bunch of european old jewish men, who escaped europe under good brother Hitler. Some had tattoos. I grew up with them, everyday for yrs. They were like family. I was a kiddie when i met them and they kinda raised me into what i am today..a strong chess player.
No, i havent run across a really devout god believing jew, that i know of. I hung out there in west hollywood were the chess park was, so i might have passed by some devout jews, but i wouldnt know it. I would see the hasids walking around. Even their belief in god is up for grabs.
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So, you think that standing in a synagogue with a Jew makes you one? Grow up. Only a fool tries to judge by appearances. After all, if I did so with you I’d think I was dealing with Bosco.
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You repeat away old love, all you prove is that you’ve more idea of being a prig than you have a Christian.
Who did God give the Commandments to? So, the Jews worship that God – even someone with your narrowness of mind ought to be capable of pondering that and coming to the right conclusion. Just in case you can’t, the clue is a Jew called Moses, not a Latin called Pius.
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They have a defective idea of God, as do many Christians. But they worship the God who gave the Ten Commandments to them.
Like Bosco, you take an isolated phrase and exaggerate it out of all proportion. Where do you think St John worshipped for most of his life? It was the Jews who threw the Christians out, and for that they will be judged; it is the Christians who have persecuated Jews, and for that they shall be judged.
Your last few Popes have been men of sense; try joining them – if you are capable of it.
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Your insight into the hearts and minds of others is matched only by that of Bosco. I doubt you have ever held an in depth conversation with an observant Jew, let alobe spent time with a community of them in Israel and talked with them about what is in their minds and hearts? Have you? If not, then how can you be so confident that your slighting judgements are not the result of prejuduce?
You are the obtuse one. God did not give Mohammed the ten commandments, neither have we incorporated their Scriptures into our own.
What on earth makes you daft enough to think the Jews worship the devil? I suppose you think they sacrifice Christian children in their diabolical rites too?
They worship their conception of the true God. it is a defective one, and the best way to help them is to extend the hand of friendship so we may talk; two thousand of years ofbehaving like you have not helped anyone. But then you must be the world’s least successful evangelist – oh, except perhsps for Bosco.
I can honestly say that if I jusged Christianity by the pair of you, I’d be anything but a Christian – you are than off-putting.
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Would that apply to an immaculate conception and a Trinity?
Have you met any Jews or Copts or Syriac Christians? No, you haven’t, but you know what is in their hearts and minds – really? Has it ever occurred to you to learn about things from life before you parrot what you read in a book?
A little learning from books is a dangerous thing. I hope that when you grow up it gets better for you.
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Unlike you I have knocked about in the real world and met real people from many walks of life, and have tried to behave as the Good Samritan did – the Levite who passed by on the other side formed his views from dogma; Christ did not preach dogma, he preached repentance and forgiveness – you do neither.
You have never discussed their faith with beleiving Jews, by the sound of it – try it, you will be surprised, as indeed you will be if you talk to non-Chalcedonians. Why this narrowness? The world is large, people are many, get out, meet some and help bring them to God. Have you found your way does this?
I have founf, with his Grace, mine does – so you keep your lovely dogma, and I will preach nothing but Christ, and Him crucified.
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Good brother Quiav is correct, but he doesnt know why. There are two kinds of people in this world…the saved and the unsaved. The unsaved have a master, and it is the devil, no matter how much they go to church and do churchy things. No matter how big the fish hat or how wide and shiney the costume. If they are unsaved, their father is the Devil. Just look at how these religious treat a person who tells them to ask Jesus for salvation. Their hatred for this kind of person is from below, not from above.
When god tossed the hebrews out of their land, he said he would make them a byword and a curse word amongst the people where they would be sent. It is gods judgment on them.
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That would be the cause of the holocaust then, would it, Bosco?
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I believe that the curse on the Jews by god culminated in the holocaust, yes. Its an example of what happens when god removes his protective hand. Its a small taste of what the earth will go thru during the tribulation. The shoah drove the Jews back home. God said they would come back, and by his hand they would come back, not of their power, but his.
Isaiah wrote of the holocaust.-
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That’s all I needed to know Bosco/
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glad to be of assistance.
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Can you explain why that is a judgment and yet God does not intervene to svae good people. When you can, I will listen, unti then I will conclude that, like Bosco, you have a very defective understanding of theodicy.
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I see, so he pops in and out – what’s he doing when Christian Haitians who are Cathoics are killed – on a tea break? Do some reading on theodicy and see how juvenile – and wrong – such views are. You are a Dawkins delight, you and Bosco – God as murderous psychopath. If your God takes delight in the murder of little Jewish children, he’s not God, he’s the devil.
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I do wish you and Bosco would stop providing us with further reasons why the Orthodox were correct in doubting whether the Apocalypse should be included in the Canon. They thought that some folk would take it literally, and you and Bosco show how right they were.
God is not th cause of suffering, we are. The sin in which we are mired is what causes the holocaust. God wants no more sacrtifices, one has been made once and for all. If you imagine God did not weep for the suffering of the Shoah, then your God is the devil, because only a devil could not weep. Of course, there idiots, like Williamson, who maintain it did not happen; such wickedness will meet its due reward unless there is repentance.,
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Please, dont ask good brother Jeff hard questions like that. he doesnt have any idea. His god is a far off god how does nothing. For him, its all mans doings. Something like the shoah , with its mind boggling terror and suffering, is something good brother cant handle.
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I don’t quite grasp this. God intervenes in history to punish the Jews, but does not intervene in history to save innocent Christians. I’d be grateful if someone could explain this.
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Not at all Bosco, he is just not a homicidal maiac who arrpoves of little kids being gassed. If your god does, then you and QV worship the devil.
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jess, i think it’s one of those odd theological questions. some jews hold to similar theologies regarding themselves…god holding them in a state of constant punishment. idk though–haven’t studied enough jewish philosophy. might be one of those “after auschwitz” perspectives and jews are as diverse as christians in their explanations of theodicy.
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See, i told you. Good brother Jeff thinks god had nothing to do with the holocaust. True, he didnt gas those people, but he removed his hand and thats what happened. God even predicted it in Isaiah. If he saw it coming and did nothing, is that the same as allowing it, or did he cause it? Anyway, he knew it was coming. Did Jesus cause Jerusalem to be sacked just because he foretold it? To the religious, god is afar off and doesnt do anything. Thats why they need religion, because they can take a seat and be driven to god, they think. Because they have no idea where he is.
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Salvation is not actually from the Jews. The Lamb of God came out of the hebrew lineage….the line of Judah, from the house of good brother David. One would have expected the Messiah to come from the tribe of Levi, the priestly tribe where all the priests came from. But he chose his beloved good brother David, why, i dont know. Good brother David was more wicked than even me, if thats hard to believe.
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“Our friend quiaviderunt has something against Pope Francis because he has said that the Jews can be saved”.
I supposed Jewish people would have something against the pope for saying that too. A Jewish person would probably resent such condescending insult . Since they are God’s chosen people(allegedly) they don’t need salvation by the Catholic Church that now declares it is in exclusive possession of the Covenant even to the belittlement of other Christian denominations.
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I couldn’t resist commenting. Exceptionally
well written!
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