Catching up on the blog, it would seem as though far from coming to Jesus relieved some of us here from the heavy burden of sin, it seems to have caused distress and hurt. In this world, hurt and distress are inescapable, and I have never understood those atheists who accuse Christians of being Christians because they get comfort from it; facing up to your own sin is far from comfortable; I would always rather not go to confession; I always feel better afterwards – but comfortable is not a word that I would associate with it.
But that is different from actively causing distress; but that is what is happening in the Roman Catholic Church. I follow a number of blogs which I enjoy, and quite a few are orthodox Catholic. Among these are ‘Protect the Pope’ by Deacon Nick Donnelly, and Fr Hunwicke’s Mutual Enrichment. Both now have another thing in common apart from their orthodoxy, they have been leaned upon by the Church hierarchy not to upset those who dissent from orthodox Catholic teaching. More detail can be found at Rorate Caeli, and, in a sign of his solidarity with the orthodox, my friend Frere Rabit has taken down the Vatican flag from his site. Those who profane the Church and counter Catholic teaching appear to be under no sanctions at all; indeed it is said that some of the worst examples are being promoted.
This adds enormously to the distress of some Christians. Our own dear friend, quiavideruntoculi is quite clearly in major difficulty as he tries to reconcile what his bishops are saying and doing and what the Church he joined has always taught. My dear friend SF has offered splendid advice about how to deal with the anguish, but it makes me so sad to see such a sincere searcher after Truth put to such straits; and I have a sense that for those orthodox Catholics whom I love and admire, the time of trial in their Church is not far off.
From the point of view of an Anglo-Catholic laywoman in the Church of England, nothing could be less attractive as I look from Mr Nebo. I cannot imagine a less attractive prospect. Where I am, I am part of a Church some would say was too broad, but where the various parts of it have learned to live together. As I look at what looks very like a revived civil war in the Roman Catholic Church, I have three feelings: pangs of sorrow for my orthodox Catholic friends; a certain irritation with a hierarchy which will crack down on orthodoxy and do nothing about real dissent; and an overwhelming desire to stay as far away from it as I can.
I should like to be wrong; indeed I pray I am. But if coming unto the Rock of Peter is to find oneself on quicksand, then what is one to make of that? I do not know, and in times of perplexity, it is best to stay where one is sure who the enemy is.
All Along the Watchtower 
Come on in…the quicksand is fine!
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It is all in how one perceives things I suppose. Far from being a Church on quicksand I see a Church hanging on a gibbet and being scandalized and abandoned by many a former follower. I can take to hiding or I can sit at the feet of the Church and cry, or lament the sorrowful state of things. This is, it seems to me, in real life, for everyone to see, the spiritual warfare we are so anxious to speak about but so unwilling to fight ourselves. Dear God give us a few good men and women who will abide with Christ during His agony.
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I sympathise, so much, dear friend, and if all Catholics did as you do, there would be greater joy in this vale of tears.
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They need be far better Catholics than I, dear friend. But joy and rest can even be found in the midst of this vale of tears if one knows where to look: the Bread of Heaven having all sweetness within it.
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That is very true. It just seems so wrong that orthodox bloggers are being shut down by bishops, where heterodox ones run free. I can see where QV is coming from.
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That is why I am so compassionate for him. I too am hurt by what is taking place but I have no other home and there is no other home I seek. Comfort and peace is what we all long for and it will be so in Heaven. On earth I must content myself as did our dear Lord to wandering about without any place to lay my head. My joy is in my small discomfort which I offer to Him. Please God that He accepts it as a small token of love.
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You are a great example of how we should bear such things – thank you for being here 🙂 x
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Thank you for having me, friend. 🙂 xx
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It is a pleasure – and an honour to know you, my friend. You offer what is needed most, wise counsel and an experienced guide 🙂 x
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If I am to live up to such expectations then please have everyone you know offer their prayers for me. I’m going to need them. 🙂 x
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You are always in my prayers 🙂 x
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As are you my friend. 🙂 x
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Thank you – it is the great act of Christian love we can give to one another 🙂 x
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It is indeed and it is by our prayers for one another than He counts us as one of His own. 🙂 x
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Thank you 🙂 xx
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Why would Christ be in agony? Over the church that he founded? He has no reason to agonize….the holy spirit guides the CC and protects it from error.
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And His Bride shall suffer the same fate as Her Spouse.
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Sorry, i dont get the meaning of that, my good brother.
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You wouldn’t Bosco, because you are too busy sitting on the side lines helping to persecute the Roman Catholic Church.
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Can you drink of the same chalice as the Lord, Bosco? The Church surely will. As Christ foretold: “It is impossible that scandals should not come.” We are also reminded in scripture that we are not to be scandalized ourselves in such things; just as we are not to be scandalized in Him.
If you would rather think of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ perhaps it would be easier to understand.
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I very much enjoyed this post, but I am a little uncertain as to how it follows that because there are divisions in the Church, and many disregard its teachings, that it is therefore based on shifting sands. The teachings (and many faithful to them across the world) still remain after all, and at least one can know what one is holding fast to, even if many others do not.
Similarly, when those within the hierarchy of the Church make ill-informed decisions, these decisions can be held up against a sure standard. Conversely, the broadness of the Anglican Communion leaves one wondering where to look. Please don’t get me wrong here – there is a lot I love about Anglicanism, and I find no satisfaction it its current predicament, but it just seems to me that there is no rock to hold onto there, and it looks more and more like being swept along by the winds of change (something that, due to Christ’s promises, I believe cannot and will not happen to the Catholic Church).
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That the discussion is necessary is regrettable in and of itself. But I think the real point many are making is that Deacon Nick of “Protecting the Pope” was suppressed officially by the Bishop of Lancashire. The point being that the English Catholic hierarchy suppressed a man for being orthodox, nothing more.
It is a very bad sign when the church itself is willing to suppress orthodox Catholic beliefs.
Well done, Jessica
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Thank you, dearest friend. It all seems wrong – where are the heterodox bloggers being silenced?
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Exactly, and what is so shaky about their heterodoxy that it can’t stand discussion?
I’m reblogging a bit of this in a few moments also, because it bothered me a lot when I saw it this morning on Cranmer.
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Good idea, dearest friend. 🙂 xx
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Thought you’d like it, although I am conflating it a bit with something else. I’m pretty sure you’ll approve, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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It is a really good post, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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Thank you, dearest friend 🙂 xx
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To be honest, Jess, where are the heterodox Catholic bloggers? Aside from the unlovely “PrayTell” I am struggling to think of a “liberal” Catholic blog with the reach of “Protect the Pope”.
Blogging is an open activism, whereas the heterodox fifth column prefers to lurk in secretive walled gardens, like ACTA, hiding their true agenda and avoiding having their views challenged.
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I understand, and hope you are right. I am just so puzzled that it seems to be Orthodox bloggers who are being silenced.
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Yes, it is puzzling indeed, and I see where you are coming from here. Mind you, it wouldn’t be the first time something like this has happened in the Church (many odd decisions were made over the last few decades in the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ for example), and it probably won’t be the last. All one can do is hold fast to the Faith as taught.
As for what is going with the silencing, Fulton Sheen said (somewhere), that seeds of division always begin to be sowed immediately after a great Council or similar landmark. When the Holy Spirit moves within the Church, the spirits of disunity usually up their game accordingly. Unfortunately it will just take time for all the implications of that to pan out. Who knows, maybe years from now people will see this as a defining moment for the Church in a good way – if she can survive all that has happened over recent years, it can only make her stronger!
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Good points, my friend, and I think SF sets a good example of how to deal with this.
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He certainly does – a very good example for all 🙂
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🙂 x
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“It is impossible that scandals should not come.
I believe you are quoting scripture good brother. Can you give me the vrs number? Thanks in advance.
Good brother Iri, why would i persecute the pure and white blameless church that the holy spirit guides and keeps from error, my beloved CC? Other, evil people persecute my beloved CC. Like the Huffington Post…those evil people. Just look at what they say about the church that is universal;
AMSTERDAM — The Dutch Catholic Church and the Salesian order are investigating revelations that a Salesian priest served on the board of a group that promotes pedophilia with the full knowledge of his boss.
The order’s top official in the Netherlands, Delegate Herman Spronck, confirmed in a statement that the priest – identified by RTL Nieuws as 73-year-old “Father Van B.” – served on the board of “Martijn,” a group that campaigns to end the Dutch ban on adult-child sex.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/21/dutch-catholic-priest-pedophilia-endorsement_n_865124.html
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By presenting that link and from your earlier comments you show that you would hold the entire Roman Catholic Church responsible for the misdeeds of the few, you have made comments in the past condemning all Priest, Monastics, and Nuns as sexual deviants. The Roman Catholic Church has done what it could to remedy this problem. If you ain’t satisfied then quit preaching to those that can do nothing about it and put pressure on the Vatican, because the folks on this forum cannot change the situation, cannot repent for sins they did not commit, and are very aware of what is going on.
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Yes, we must protect the Pope. All these beggarly victims of priest abuse, causing all this trouble. Rally round the pope and make sure he is protected. Let the abuse victims eat cake.
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The bozone layer must be particularly thick in California today. You might want to buy yourself an oxygen mask before you pass out.
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Say good brother, you never gave me the scripture. Thanks in advance
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Luke 17:1 if you can find someone in California who still knows how to read.
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Bosco you refuse to see, you might have decided on a parody, yet your song remains the same, sing it to an audience that can do something about it instead of disturbing those that can’t do anything about your favorite subject.
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i just find comfort from this blog in the fact that so many christians have just started bickering with each other. it makes me feel less anxious and depressed about my own lack of faith.
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qvo, i’m not even satisfied with god…not satisfied without him either.
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Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
hMMM. iT LOOKS LIKE ITS SAYING WOE TO THOSE WHO DO OFFEnd or hurt the little ones. I dont seem to get scandel out of it.
Thanks for your qwuick resopnse. Ill look at this again when i get to work. I have a large bible at work. Big letters so i can read it easy.
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You’ll need more than that Bosco. You must read the words along with the understanding that the saints have meditated on. To many a saint these things are being spoken directly to their souls and they see the Church as Christ on earth which will necessarily be a stumbling stone and be a scandal to many. The warning about the little ones is concerning the teachers who might lead the sheep astray or leave them to the wolves. They will have to answer for their actions. But Christ will certainly mind His sheep – but woe to those who scandalize the Church (or Him – as the Church is representative of Christ on earth).
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Oh, you mean woe to those members of the CC that do wrong? Thanks for your honest answer.
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And woe to those who persecute her from outside as well, my friend. They are no different than those who asked Christ to come down from the cross.
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One more thing and ill leave you alone….Is pointing out the truth considered persecution? I mean, is exposing the misdeeds of clergy considered persecution?
Thanks in advance.
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If you make the implication that this is normal and usual and a result of the Church or its teachings, it would be. If you keep it specific to an individual, that is fine and if you also are not shy about pointing the same finger at every institution and do not single one out for special attention.
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So, pointing out misdeeds of members of a group isnt persecution.
If i lamblasted every religious group and the misdeeds of its clergy, i would be in from of the computer 24 hrs a day 7 days a week, 365 1/4th days a yr.
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Is it relevant to anything being discussed? Then bring it up if you want to. I have not yet seen any relevance in your incessant attacks on Catholicism except to try to smear the entire Church by gathering every ill deed and every scandal you can lay your dirty little hands on. No relevance at all to anything being discussed it simply a verbal attack that smells more like vomit than it does honest debate. Is that clearer now?
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Yes, youve made it clear that some catholic faithful would rather not have their holymen exposed to them. And the one who brings up the evil deeds of their holymen is a bad person.
I was watching whats his names live sunday service when he was talking about how a girl came to his hotel room to get help for her sinful life style. I watched him regularly, but i cant remember his name. I noticed a strain in his voice and i knew he was being deceptive. But, i shrugged it off as my imagination. Later that week, a pastor that he had spilled the beans on had been following him to find some dirt on him. That man reported to the news that the dear evangelist had a prostitute come to his hotel room. Well, that sunday, whats his name was standing there crying on national TV.
Then there was this mega church evangelist that was anti gay…he got exposed as being a drug using homosexual. His wife stuck with him anyway. I never heard of him befor that scandal broke.
In the prot evangelical world, one man is the central figure. The people under him are for the most part well meaning folks who do the mailing and typing and stuff like that. The perverted act is usually limited to that one man, the head honcho.
Our beloved CC…the head honcho is protected but the people under him, who are suppose to be holymen, are being exposed as the worst kind of dregs. From city to city, from state to state, from country to country, the clergy are exposed as wolves eating the flesh of their flock.
When light is shined on the evangelical outfits, one man, the top dog is exposed. When the light is shined on tour beloved CC, truckloads of clergy are exposed, in every city town and state on earth. So, one is free to draw their own conclusions on that. But the light keeps shining and devotees keep shooting the messengers.
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You speak in generalities that are only meaningful to your distorted mind and sensibilities. Most Catholics or any other denomination knows of these things so if somehow you think you are delivering news to the unknowing you flatter yourself. You are only creeping about in the sewage from the past and bringing it up for our inspection. We have no interest in it; though obviously you have an obsession with it.
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Bosco, I ain’t shooting you down because you are delivering a needed message as you claim, I shooting you down, because as Servus has already stated, you are bringing up something that ain’t being discussed on this post. Furthermore you are implying that it is because the teachings are wrong, yet as you have already shown, sexual misdeeds are happening in other groups. FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, THERE ARE NONE PERFECT, NO NOT ONE!!! I would suggest that you start reading some more of your Bible and look for the ways that Paul said we should handle delivering the Gospel.
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Good brother Servus, ever heard of the Pentagon papers, by Elsberg? he took newspaper articles and put them in different order from how they were released. he went to jail for exposing the govt, even though he used nothing but press stories, but he put them in the real order that they happened.
If the claim of holiness and being free from error and celibacy are lies, what else is a lie? I mean, its only your salvation that is at stake.
Good brother iri, i am a watchman. i am commanded not to be silent.
I used to tell people to open the door to Jesus, but they hated that message and me for giving it.So now i give them the bitter water that flows unending from their graven image soaked cult of Baal.Maybe someone will say…”Hey, this is nasty, lemme out of here”…and then seek the invisible god instead of a ceramic figurine.
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There is no magical cult that is guilty of what you accuse them of – you merely slander that which you don’t know. You would have judged Christ the same way had he performed miracles before your very eyes.
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If you are a watchman you need to study some things other than the lunatic fringe. May I suggest that you take a serious Bible history class?
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Me personally, condemned Christ for miracles? Its possible. But myself, when i heard the good news i believed and was born again. Within hrs. I didnt need coaching and long doctrine and follow up visits. I believed straight away. So its possible i would have believed on the Lord if i saw a miracle.It was the costumed holymen of the time that hated Jesus. Jesus exposed the doctrine and the behaviour of the costumed holymen. They wanted him dead because of that. Sound familiar?
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You wax poetic for one so far from the Truth. Why would anyone believe you: because you are believable? Because of your honor? Because you say you are saved? If I say I am saved, would you believe me?
Physician, heal thyself. Once you remove the beam from your eye you might then help remove the speck from the eyes of others.
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Look at our costumes, look at what we claim, but dont look at what we do. For what we do is evil. Just look at what we say about ourself. Just bow befor our images. Kiss our holymens rings. Give us your money. We live like kings in kings palaces. Fine raiment. I sit as a Queen and no one will bring me down. Just dont bring up our bloody history of burning to death bible believers. Its bad for business.
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Are you blind? Would you get all the meaning of a stage play only by hearing the spoken word? Would you mess some of the drama and perhaps a great deal of the meaning? Does the humbling of one to their king of Kings, scandalize you because some drop to their knees before Him? I personally think I dealing with one who is both deaf and blind and yet loves to speak about all the things he sees and hears – yet has no earthly idea of what these things are or their use because it has no use to a man with your handicaps. Christ will open you eyes if you will keep you mouth closed long enough for Him to do the speaking.
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far from the truth. Which truth am i far from? Thanks in advance
I have no religion to offer. I have no books by men to offer. I ask no one to follow me.
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Indeed you don’t. You have no religion because you do not have Christ. And if you do not have Christ, you do not have Truth.
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Ah, we agree…Christ is truth and every man a liar.
Im not in a religion because Jesus and the NT dont recommend any religion. if they did, i would join it.
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You missed the part where Christ founded a Church Are you swallowing large quantities of goofballs by chance?
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Thank you, QV – who are these people to make sorrowful those whom The Lord has not made sad?
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I really begin to see your difficulty with your church.
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I see what you mean, but at the moment, my own local Anglo-Catholic Church is far more orthodox than the Pope. So hard, so, so hard.
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I understand, and there is no complaint from me. But now is not the moment for me. I need my Rosary group more than ever.
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At the moment my Marian veneration is my great crutch. The liberal Catholics locally have nothing and seem not to care. The pp has never wanted me in, and now that liberal is Pope, there’s no chance of it. I sympathise with you and your wife in your isolation, and pray for you both.
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There is no alternative now. They didn’t want me under B16, and now I can’t bear to join them – they are so triumphalist. I just need quietness and to be close to Mama.
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Yes, revoltingly so. I really cannot sup with them.
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It is how I feel. Here we have ex monks speaking heresy with the approval of the pp – and attempts to appeal upwards fail every time. I will not, nay, cannot, consort with such.
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Thank you – I appreciate that hugely 🙂
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Thank you 🙂 x
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I have wrestled too long – these people, the liberals, cannot feed me. I wait on His will and I trust Mama 🙂
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I have decided to go on pilgrimage to Walsingham – hence the new header 🙂 x
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Thank you. I have always found Walsingham a place of great spiritual comfort – I shall say a prayer there for you 🙂 x
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While reading this post this quote came to mind: Fr. Arseny (Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father; translated by Vera Bouteneff; St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press pg.92-93): “What is this for, O my Lord? What did all these people suffer and die for? All of them: believers and non-believers, righteous ones, criminals whose are impossible to weigh in human understanding? Why? And the answer came to me: This is one of thy mysteries, Lord, which we people – the slaves of sin – cannot understand. This mystery is Thine. Thy ways are inscrutable. Thou alone knowest the path of each human life; our duty is to simply do good in Thy name, to walk in the statutes of the Gospel, and to pray to Thee. Then the forces of evil will be overcome. For where two or three are gathered in Thy name, there shalt thou be. Have mercy on me O Lord, according to Thy abundant mercy, and forgive me for my despair, my weakness of spirit and my wavering.”
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May we all come to such a proper understanding, JRJ. Thank you for sharing that passage.
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You are most certainly and always welcome. Fr. Arseny’s story is one worth reading, though it is heart breaking, yet his continuing to hold to the faith in the face of his tribulations for the faith is very inspirational.
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Reminds me of the book by Fr. Walter Ciszek (He Leadeth Me) who was captured by the Russians in Poland after the war and spent 23 years in prison and work camps as he was convicted of being a Vatican spy. His faith serves as a fine example for any Christian.
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No church will ever be the solid rock as long as it is run by men. I say that even while believing strongly in church hierarchy and discipline. Historically the church has been a body in flux. The one thing that has kept it from entirely spinning off into oblivion is the fact that it is tied to the one unchangeable truly sold rock, Christ. As long as our faith is placed firmly in Christ we can work within the constructs of our very different and very flawed streams of church life. Sometimes the Master will come along and allow us to change streams but if not then He will help us to swim in the one we are commanded into.
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Jessica, I understand your problems with your pp, the ex-monk, though not really, he’s still a monk…though not a good one I fear.
As I get older, older than most on this blog, I find myself more into my own sinfulness and what I need to do about it than the arguments about orthodoxy or liberalism in the Church. Whether the church should go back to the Tridentine Mass or stay in post VatII mode is not important…why because my time on earth is everyday more finite. Do you really think that when I face the Lord my God he’s going to ask, “Well, which Mass did you go to.”
The Church will figure this all out in time, probably not in my time. In the meantime, the Church will suffer both in on-going scandals and those that leave because they are scandalized. The Secular Atheists will have their field day until their world comes crashing down around them. It might take WWIII to do it.
Yet, I must go on, “Jesus, I trust in you.”
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Sensible approach.
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please, traddy catholics on here, stay hopeful for your church. though it happened in september, i’m pretty certain it will cheer some of you up.
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2595/dissident_aussie_priest_excommunicatedby_pope_francis.aspx#.UyjxBfldVIE
this article explains how pope francis back in september of last year excommunicated a liberal catholic priest for ordaining women and blessing homosexual unions.
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The CC needs to stop the hypocrite act. Most of its holymen are vile homosexuals yet it hastles homosexual devotees and wont let them marry, like they are some kind of lepers.
What do you expect from a religion that teaches its young to bow befor graven images.
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Bosco that is what I keep complaining about your comments, I have said before and will say again that by you claiming, “Most of its holymen are vile homosexuals” you are adding to the persecution. If you see a Priest doing something wrong, then bring it to the attention of the proper authorities, but do not assume that because you see one that is bad that it means everyone is bad.
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I give everyone a clean slate, except priests of Baal. Priests of babylonian Baal worship are all evil doers. Not that im not an evil doer. There are two types of people in this world…the saved and the unsaved. people get saved thru that bandit Benny Hinn, but salvation is snuffed out on purpose by priests of Baal. They dont want salvation for their devotee…they want to see them in hell with them. For this, i have no sympathy. sorry. Wait, no im not sorry. Those religious fools who wake up in hell are sorry.
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To show you how long this battle has raged, this might be appropriate.
Dietrich Von Hildebrand’s observation from 1973 is just as true today as it was then:
…it is now especially infuriating when certain bishops, who themselves show this lethargy toward heretics, assume a rigorously authoritarian attitude towards those believers who are fighting for orthodoxy, and who are doing what the bishops ought to be doing themselves![12]The Devastated Vineyard (Franciscan Herald Press, 1973), p. 4
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Does the humbling of one to their king of Kings, scandalize you because some drop to their knees before Him?
I drop to my knees befor him.
Im ashamed of my brethern who drop to their knees befor images made by human hands.
The play that us humans are in is a play of invisible forces in high places. I dont need to see anything with my eyes to believe in Christ. I feel sorry for those who need to see in order to believe. Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe.
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Ashame you do not see what is in their hearts though you think you know anyway. “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
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Jessica, I think a little history is in order (to know your enemy). Quicksand it is not.
http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/03/18/st-patrick-the-catholic-church-divorce-and-the-irish/
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This is a hard one to take, Steve. We all know that if Catherine’s nephew had not been in Rome occupying it, Henry would have got what so many medieval kings got – an annulment. You only have to look a King Louis and Eleanor of Aquitaine. She had three daughters with him and they were married for years, he wanted a son, so he secured an annulment. I really think the history here shows one things, that the rich and powerful have always been able to buy what they wanted from Rome – just look at the Kennedy family.
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Jessica, yes I will have another spot of tea. Thank you very much. Everyone always wants to blame the Pope. They say annulments are so subjective, why this one and not another, and especially mine! Well, if I only had the wherewithal to bride those scoundrels. Now certainly at that point in history, who more than the King & Queen of England had the kind of resources that could have been used for such purposes? No, if we are to get into the mind of the Pope, what he saw was that the King & Queen had lied about the consummation of her 1st marriage, and here Henry was, seventeen years later, wanting to control Catherine and the Church. Now, did Henry, who the Pope had given the title of “Defender of the Faith” have any free will in this matter? History has proven him to be a raving lunatic, and he was consumed with lust, power, and greed. So, some could argue that he did not. As with the modern world, they will say his addictions were in control. The devil made him do it, it couldn’t be helped! I would argue that at that point he did have control. He could have continued to rape and molest his “ladies in waiting,” which he had been doing for years. But, let’s go back to the real mover and shaker in this whole matter, Anne Boleyn. She realized that Henry cared nothing about Catherine or his concubines, and decided before she was consumed, she would be Queen. A very wise young lady, the hero of the likes of Margaret Sanger and Ayn Rand. From that point on, Henry, Catherine, or the Pope had very little control as Anne had it all. She played Henry like a piano and changed the course of history. Now, back to the Pope. If he had accepted that bribe that you accuse him of wanting, what was he to do when Jane Seymour, and all the others, arrived on the scene? No, the only one to uphold the faith in this whole matter was the Pope. The spot of tea was delightful.
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Ehh, Steve you need to catch up on your Tudor history. At the point of the divorce from Catherine of Aragon, Henry was considered the most accomplished man in Europe, by almost any measure. The problems came later, some attributing them to a jousting injury, best presented in my mind by Dr. Suzannah Lipscomb in her “1536: The Year that Changed Henry VIII”, or that he was Kell Positive and suffered from McLeod syndrome, which is ably presented in Kyra Kramer’s “Blood Will Tell”. Personally, I think they may well both be right.
The Pope was a prisoner of Catherine’s uncle, Emperor Charles V, following the sack of Rome in 1527 so he had more important concerns (to him, anyway) than any concern about whether Henry and Catherine (or anybody else) had lied to him. He had his own earthly kingdom (and life) to preserve.
Did Catherine come to Henry a virgin? Yes, I believe she did, she was a very devout woman, and so swore so all her life, even in her dying confession. Not to mention that she was quite young, even for those times, when she married Aurthur. Was Anne his mistress? I doubt it, mostly because she wanted the crown too much, and that wouldn’t have worked. I think Henry managed to convince himself that he was in the right as well, but I’m no specialist on the period.
This is one of those stories that if we are not careful, it’s very easy to look on it with our twenty first century eyes, and that is a mistake, it really was a foreign country cause everything was different there.
And a raving lunatic? History has proven no such thing. Henry is one of the main architects of the modern world. Although he certainly did turn into a tyrannical founder.
It is good tea, though.
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Ah, Jessica has just brought out some fresh crumpets! OK, NEO, if raving lunatic is a little over the top, then how about extremely paranoid. Anne Boleyn, Catherine Howard, Thomas Cromwell, & Sir Thomas More all executed. Thomas Wolsey would have been also, but died before he was convicted. Now, let’s have some music with our tea & crumpets.
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Ha! One of my favorites. You should have seen my girlfriend when that was new.
He certainly got that way, but it wasn’t all that strong, and there is a lot of progression in his paranoia/narcisission/whatever it really was. In many ways he’s seems as much as anything like a spoiled child, which being a medieval king could easily lead to. Mary and Elizabeth were neither much better.
Good scones, for a biscuit specialist. 🙂
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eleanor actually wanted the annulment first. she dissed the authority of the church and they didn’t grant it initially.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihzvEQuyDQIC&q=annulment#v=snippet&q=annulment&f=false
it wasn’t until after louis also decided it was a failed marriage that the annulment was given. and he didn’t even want to press for an annulment at first.
also, the kennedy family had to show to the u.s. that they wouldn’t bring the pope into politics. the united states at this time was still quite suspicious of catholics.
this is why you are not a historian. then again, these lower-case letters are also why i’m not in the english department.
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