In his interesting piece on this issue, quiavideruntoculi admits there is no Scriptural warrant for infant baptism but provides a list of argument why his church does it all the same. It is always possible to justify to oneself unscriptural practices, and when you’ve raised enough unscriptural practices into your church, you can even fool yourself into thinking that makes it OK; but for me, and for many Baptists, Scripture counts, and you can add what you like, but criticising others for sticking to Scripture seems a little on the odd side of odd. So let me run through why we Baptists practice what we do.
The first reason is obvious; there is no Scriptural warrant for anything else. Yes, it might be the case that infants were baptised, but it is never mentioned. Indeed, when the Council of Jerusalem made it clear that converts dd not have to be circumcised, the Apostles nowhere said that infants must, therefore, be baptised; why not, if, as qvo maintains, baptism i the mark of entry into the church for children as well as adults?
All those we learn of in Scripture who are baptised are after they have come to accept Christ; now, if that was the case with children and babies, we should expect to be told; we aren’t. Are babies able to accept Christ and repent of their sins? Of course not, so all anyone baptizing them is doing is performing an act they think will have some magical effect on the baby. You can’t be numbered among the elect just because your parents say so. Christians enter into a covenant with God – babies cannot do that, and you an I cannot do it for them. It all, frankly, smacks of magic.
I can find no mention in the Didache or Justin Martyr, or any of the early texts of this practice, and for qvo (or is he just quoting some ill-informed rubbish from his own church?) to drag in the Anabaptists as though modern Baptists have any connection with them is unworthy – as he’d know if he’d spent five minutes studying the subject; his practice of telling others what it is they believe is, to be fair to him extended to his own Pope – but in this case is unimpressive – as all arguments from total ignorance are.
The Roman Catholic Church will not allow non-believers to receive communion, as it holds it is a sacrament, but it is quite happy to confer another sacrament on those who do not believe, and indeed, by their condition, cannot do so. Jesus specifically says that those who are believed and baptised will be saved, but of course, what is his word against that of a Pope? Yes, at some point the church began the practice of infant baptism, but that is my argument – that it was not there from the beginning, and to object to Christians following the practice of Jesus is to insist that you know better.
Of course, for those who do know better than the Pope, I guess that’s no problem?
Well, there is of course a justification for the Catholic tradition. See, for example, http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism where it is justified by quotations from Ss Peter and Paul.
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What do you care about anything comrade Eccles?
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Hullo Bosco my dear bruvver: we gotta get you baptised one of these days or you won’t be saved.
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Ah , blow it out yer nose comrade Eccles. Who pulled your chain?
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Thank you Bruvver – I shall go there to see.
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Who cares about dunkin babies. Chances are it will grow up and die unsaved and wind up in hell anyway.
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Wow, St Bosco, I thought I was rude, crude and socially unacceptable talking to Geoffrey the way I did, but you leave me far behind.
When are you going to post an article St. Bosco and what new subject are you going to choose?
“Unsaved and wind up in Hell” hard, Bosco Hard.
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Walk down a crowded street. Chances are everyone you see is going to hell. Who are you going to believe? Jesus or some costume child molesters. Jesus said very few people will be on the road to salvation. People in here say the bible doesnt contain everything we need for salvation. Thats so they can justify their idolatry.
Look mommy….why are those people bowing befor that statue? I thought we werent supposed to do that.
Well my child, dont pay attention to the bible. We catholics hate the bible. And we hate people who believe only the bible. Come, let me show you the stacks of canon laws and catechisms. These are what we believe.
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If one does not believe, as Catholics believe, that a Sacrament is an outward (visible) sign of a inner (hidden) grace given us by God then it is not surprising to reduce the outward signs as mere symbolic representations of these gifts, which is no guarantee of any grace being actually delivered to the soul. Received grace, then is mere illusion: it is magic as you say.
If not, it is by God’s action and by His grace (the invisible, unwarranted, gifts of God) that it is received: particular graces being given at each sacrament. And if the Church holds to this understanding, and if it is to be preserved for the future of the Church, then it seems quite right that the Church should be responsible for what makes this act valid or invalid.
If you want your children to await the age of reason, that is the decision of your Church. Would this be a mistake according to my Church? Yes.
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Even you must know it is foolish to expect sola scriptura to answer that question. The bible is not an encyclopedia The church was founded on Christ’s resurrection, the bible, your authority was not finalized until 440 years later. The Apostles knew how to baptist and who to baptist at the granting of the grace of the Holy Spirit, Those who were Baptised knew how it was done because it had been done to them. If the Early Church (the Catholic Church) taught how people should be Baptised, why do we need a scripture, not everything is in scripture. By your reasoning the church could only come into being once the none existent Bishops had not been selected because there was no scripture yet, accepted what belonged in the bible. If the none existent Bishops were smart enough to select the books, because of tradition, they must be allowed to follow other traditions handed down to them by Jesus and the Apostles. If the Church says infant baptism is okay, then it is okay. If you believe that the Holy Spirit was received by the Apostles then they where given the Truth and everything that Christ did was called to remembrance, then their Baptism is true. Sorry, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is given in Protestant bible study, nor have I heard of a transformation of Wonderbread and grape juice to human heart tissue, with moving red AB blood cells, with the chemical makeup of being inside a living body and beating after 700 years. When a Protestant church has such a thing, I will believe that God and the Holy Spirit is in the Protestant church and sola scriptura is true. If they are in error in believing John 6, I think they are in error of other things, like baptism.
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I agree that the Apostles knew what they were doing; we do it, I don’t know why you don’t.
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Well, I know Elizabeth tells me, “Tom, stop staring at those people you are scaring them”. I am hard, While I enjoy your posts, I can not accept sola scriptura, if it is followed to it natural end, then there could not have been a church until the reformers had given us the corrected bible and its scripture in the 15th century. We would have had to wait. I find the whole sola scriptura belief to be unsupportable. I find protestantism unsupportable too, too many sects, visions by its many different prophets, rapture, 3,1/2 years, Howard Camping etc.
This is of course does not include you or your church, because they are beautiful. Is the Catholic Church bad, yes we had a Pope who dug up another Pope and put him on trial. He was declared guilty. But my sticking point is always the Holy Spirit, who has it? Where is the Protestant proof that they are a replacement for the early church. I don’t quite understand you last statement, but I listen to what the church says on the Apostles and it says they are not protestants and no matter how you use gnostic words with Paul, his theology can not be different then Jesus’s, and protestant theology makes Jesus into an invisible man at the wedding. Protestantism is Paul, Paul, Paul.
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God gave us the bible. The catholic church burned one alive if caught with a bible. Thanks for nothing catholic church.
Join the Revised Nazi Party and you wont have to suffer with stupid claims made by some child molesters. We dont allow stupidness in our ranks.
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As Servus says, it goes to heart of what we believe Baptism even is. I have been writing my extended series on Baptism in the hopes of addressing just this issue. It is telling that it was only a tradition such as yours that embraced a Zwinglian (i.e. non-sacramental) understanding of Baptism that has rejected the Baptism of infants.
Scripture plainly presents Baptism as having a real, sacramental efficacy, in two respects: it washes away the sins of a believer, puts to death his sinful body through Christ’s death on the cross and raises him to new life (Rom 6:3–5, Titus 3:4–7, Acts 22:16, etc.), and it baptizes him into the Body of Christ, makes him a member of the Body and of the New Covenant (Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27, 1 Cor 12:13, etc.). In Colossians 2:8–15 Paul plainly presents Baptism as “the Circumcision of Christ,” the entrance into Christ’s covenant — and Circumcision is not a rite to be denied to infants.
You and many other Protestants are very quick to make arguments against the Catholic Church on the grounds of various doctrines being “unbiblical” — but I would argue, on the other hand, that this doctrine is not. Just because no infants are explicitly described as being baptized doesn’t mean that they were not. You may notice that for the most part, infants — even less than women — don’t have much agency in the Bible and generally aren’t noticed. We find several occasions when whole households of converts were baptized (Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 1 Cor 1:16, etc.) — that term, οἶκος, generally including ones whole household, wives, children, and servants. We should have no reason to conclude that not one of these households contained small children. Paul addresses children as members of the Church (Colossians 3:20), and Jesus himself beckoned that infants (βρέφη, literally newborns or even fetuses!) be brought to him, “and do not stop them” (Luke 18:15–17).
And concerning the Church Fathers: St. Irenaeus tells us quite plainly that Jesus came to save and sanctify infants as well as all ages — that salvation was not solely for those who could have a full, intellectual appreciation of Christian doctrine. “For He came to save all through means of Himself—all, I say, who through Him are born again to God [a clear reference to Baptism —JTR]—infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men. He therefore passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, thus sanctifying infants; a child for children, thus sanctifying those who are of this age, being at the same time made to them an example of piety, righteousness, and submission; a youth for youths, becoming an example to youths, and thus sanctifying them for the Lord.” (Against Heresies 2.22.4). This testimony is quite clear; and despite an absence of reference to the Baptism of infants in several other early writers, there is nothing in them that would deny Baptism to infants.
I have witnessed many infant Baptisms, and despite the arguments of some that infants cannot have saving faith — I have never seen such a pure, loving, childlike faith as that of an infant being held in her mother’s arms. We believe than in Baptism, Jesus Himself comes to wash us — and I have never seen a baby who would reject His loving embrace.
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I see you still havent forgiven comrade Martin Luther. Let go of your anger and embrace protestants.
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goggle: Infant Baptism Part 2
By Dr. Jonathan Edwards
Interesting article how some Puritans believed in infant baptism and some did not and naturally convoluted reasoning for each position. While there are no guarantees that baptism defines infant or adult as regenerate or initiated into the elect at every infant baptism I have attended the congregation was filled with tears of joyous celebration in their effort to embrace that Jesus said “bring the little children to me” perhaps whether by infant baptism, a teen after making confirmation or the conscious choice of an adult. All who seek a seat at the Table are welcome and a parent may keep the child’s crib or tiny chair close to that Table and remember Christ was still Christ in His manger.
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Broadly speaking, I’m with the Romanists on this one.
S.
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What a waste of time to be all upset because someone baptizes a baby.Theres no harm in that.The mumbo jumbo about them now being saved is just tht…mumbo jumbo.If the baby dies, its given a chance to accept Christ in the afterlife. Comrades Hitler, Himmler, Hoess, Goebbels, Stalin, Heydrich were all baptized into the CC. Did that make them saved? All of you were baptized at one time or another.
Look at confusion amongst your ranks.
Join us in the Reformed American Nazi Party and and fall in line.
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How about applying a little salve to your own soul, my friend?
Alas, I must decline your invitation to join your party.
Goodbye.
S.
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Too bad comrade Struans..yould make a slendid Nazi.
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Gotta apologise for my deer Bruvver Bosco. He’s cross cos I changed the title of my blogg from “Eccles and Bosco is saved” to “Eccles is saved”, havin got some inside information that people wot bears false witness all the time has got their places booked for the Lake of Fire.
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I do hope that Bosco gets ‘saved’; at the moment I have the feeling we need saving from him 🙂
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Do you suppose he only does it to annoy and because he knows it teases?
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My points are all valid and you all know it. There are two kinds of people in this world…the saved and the unsaved. Jerome of London and Cyril of Easthampton can remind you of stuff 24 hrs a day. But if one dies unsaved, well, that is that. Canon law wont get you in. mary wont pray for you at the hour of your death.
Depart from me, i never knew you.
You think that wafer is gonna secure your ticket to heaven. Ive seen ladies staring at the cracker and crying and longingly gazing at it and praying to it. She better wake up or find herself in hell. Wide is the road to destruction, and many be there on. Im afraid many seeing these words are going to wake up in hell. They are going to ask…why didnt someone warn me? Jesus stands at the door and knocks. if that isnt good enough for you. I guess you would rather have the cracker to stasre at and then climb into the box with a child molester and have him forgive your sins. You will have your reward.
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Doesnt matter what religion or church the unsaved go to. They still side with each other when it comes to hating Jesus and his words. Prot, cathol, budhist, new ager stan worshipers, they all have one thing in common. They will gang up on someone spreading the gospel. Wont the comrade Jeff?
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Comrade Quiav, if someone askes me a question, like you have, i take my time to answer, and answer nicely, i hope. Ill answer your points, the ones that i can.
1 costumed holymen. Jesus said not to be above your brother. Comrade Paul fleshed it out by saying not TO EVEN DRESS AS TO SEPARATE ONES SELF
2 Icons and images…2nd commandment They give false pictures, salse images in the mind. The sweet white cute blue eyed Mary that comrade Jess always puts up is misleading as hell. If you could see the real Mary, you wouldnt be in such a hurry to be all devoted to her and stuff like that.
3 Holy tradition. Jesus said the traditions of men make void the commandments of god. Someone told me that bowing to graven images was a tradition of the CC, thats why its not in bible. I dont know what these holy traditions are. But it sounds like more claims by the CC, like Holy See and Holy Office. The CC puts the word Holy on everything. All it does is scare the kiddies.
4 Liturgical worship. I dont know what that is. I just follow the Lamb.
5 priesthood. The born again are kings and priests, not some joker that went to man of god school and got a diploma. We have no priests. The Levites were the only priests. Now, the saved have one high priests, Christ. The rest of us are brothers.
6 Sacrements. A works religion. Do this to be saved. Do this, do that. Jesus yoke is easy and his burden is light. The theif on the cross didnt do any sacrements. Jesus is a man, and to follow him one just has to follow. he leads us to still waters. We dont have to do anything but be still and behold the salvation of the Lord.
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Agree with St Bosco 1, 2, 3, 4.
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Comrade Quiav, i dont get upset because so called priests wear costumes. Im pointing it out to others so they have a chance to compare what Christ taught as compared to their religion.Men setting themselfs apart from other men is one of the least of the evils that religions do. Sometimes when i see costumed holymen i laugh, sometimes i get sad for the people who fall for that. Like all those catholic men that the cathols quote as having reminded us of this and that, i remind you of what scripture says about everyday life. And i am laughed to scorn. These walking dead dont want the light, they love darkness because their deeds are dark.
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Uh oh. Geoffrey, it seems like you have a backhanded endorsement from Bosco. Perhaps this will require a Baptism III post from you.
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Ah the old Catholic ‘get out of jail free’ card. This is the equivalent of Bosco saying that ‘only the saved know it’. Utterly unconvincing – except as proof you have no Scriptural warrant.
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If Baptism was meant to serve the same purpose as circumcision then like it, it would have been practised on babies. It serves a spiritual purpose for those able to consent – that is the point missed by your hocus-pocus.
On your own argument you fail – females were no circumscised, who when it says ‘whole households’ it does not mean everyone. For your feeble argument to stand up you’d have to extend it to women too.
Another fail for the ‘the Bible must mean what I say it means, even though there is no evidence’ line.
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No, you are the one arguing the position you caricature, saying God limits His Grace only to those given water baptism as infants.
You assert what you cannot prove and what I have proven. There is no Scriptural warrant for baptism of infants, everything I quoted says it is about those who can consent coming to Jesus.
If infant baptism was as important as you claim, why is it it has warrant neither in Scripture or in the very early Fathers? You have fallen through the ice and are blowing bubbles in the water.
No one has argued infant baptism was forbidden. What has been argued is that it did not occur to Jesus or the Apostles that a baby could repent and come to Christ. It didn’t occur because conversion was necessary, and for conversion, consent is necessary.
Or are you still maintaining that when ‘whole housholds’ are mentioned, the women were circumscised.
You have neither an argument, nor, it would seem a clue.
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I am very happy with that. One one side the Gospel record, on the other the special pleadings of your group.
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He will, and you’d better prepare to find all sorts of people in heaven you think are going elsewhere.
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SALES “It didn’t occur because conversion was necessary, and for conversion, consent is necessary.”
I remain pro infant but the above statement I find impossible to refute. As many couples formally renew their marriage vows years later in church I do not find it objectionable that a baptized infant may choose renew that sacrament as an adult. The baptizing of the baby is a parental celebration as well. Of course this second baptism may cause expense as a greater volume of water is now required for the now grown up person. Can it also be that a teen/young adult actually symbolically renews infant baptism upon making confirmation?
Re circumcision I find very tiny population in non Jewish Western World that think getting circumcised or not getting circumcised has much to do with religion. It is most widely accepted as a normal post birth medical procedure .
One thing is for sure. Getting spanked then getting cut up and being burdened with that back breaking original sin stuff is a fairly traumatic way for a lad to enter this world.
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Yes, I agree, Carl, not much of a start in some ways.
I am fine with the idea of infant baptism if that’s what folkis want to do, my objectiojn is to being told we Baptists are wrong for doing what the Apostles and Jesus did.
Back in medieval times they used to ‘marry’ aristocratic kids, but they did a ‘renewal; when they reached the age when it mattered.
I’d wager that more folks who take the decision to get baptised stick with the faith than those who have it done to them as babies.
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God can do anything – have some faith in Him. You seem to think he is bound by the rules of your Club – he isn’t.
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God makes His decisions. I trust Him, I’d advise you to try.
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One cannot be baptized twice, as once the Gift is given and received it is already there. What you can do, and is required you do, is to complete the sacraments of initiation by being confirmed to the Church in the Sacrament of Confirmation. That is where those who received Baptism as an infant make the same vows for themselves and with their own freewill. So it is already covered and the Orthodox have the same 7 sacraments and also do the same. Maybe that is the closure of the circle that you refer to, Carl. It is taken care of should the child live to the age of reason. If not, then one cannot say that we did not heed Christ’s command to Baptize.
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