From the very beginning, as St Paul found, there have been divisions among Christians, and these, he wrote were signs of our ‘carnal’ nature. He added:
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
We are all of Christ, Paul reminded the Corinthians. If only it were that easy. We know from the epistles of John that even during the lifetime of the Beloved disciple there were those who denied his testimony and preferred their own version of who Jesus was; if men would not believe St John, then we can hardly be surprised that we remain carnal enough to dispute amongst ourselves.
This is hard, because I am sure those whom St John labelled ‘antichrists’ were as convinced of their own sincerity and the rightness of their view as was St John. Who was to decide such a matter?
We can see that for St John it was his own eye witness testimony, and for St Paul it was the ‘traditions’ that he had received and handed on. But that has never been enough. There have been in all times and in all places the ‘Diotrephes’ figures, who, as St John put it ‘loves to have the preeminence among them’ and refused to accept even Apostolic authority. The print revolution and the widespread reading of the Bible did not make the situation easier; a Christendom which was then already badly fractures, continued to do so ad infinitum as everyone could find a verse to say that they were inspired personally. But it was,if one reads the scholars, and St John himself, just that reliance on the personal possession of the Holy Spirit which fractured even St John’s own church. If all such did what St Paul did, which was to submit their testimony to the traditions handed on within the church, it would be easier to know what spirit it was which inspired them, for there are many spirits and not all of God.
But that begs the obvious question – which church?
The temptations to syncretism in this situation are obvious. We act as though what divides us is of no importance and find what unites us – Christ. But what Christ is this? St John gives s some guidance:
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.
On this the Apostle is most insistent:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
As the many posts here on the Trinity have shown, even the process of establishing who Jesus is, what the relationship between Him and the Father and Spirit is, has caused bitter divisions. So syncretism is not a viable road; how can one have true fellowship with those who claim that Jesus and the Father are the same person, and say that when Jesus says He who has seen the Father have seen him, shows this to be so, when earlier, we are told that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning? That is the problem with individual interpretation of Scripture; we make ourselves infallible.
Trinitarian Christians seem to me to fit the Johannine bill. We all believe what the early Church established at Nicaea. That means we actually agree on who Christ is, so we really ought, if we bury our pride and humble ourselves, be able to say if we really are of Christ, we should be able to find better ways of talking to other Trinitarians.
There has been much use of the word ‘heretic’ in the comboxes here recently. If anyone were able to show me where this has helped the cause of Trinitarianism, I would be most interested. My own readings suggest it fractured the Church at Ephesus, Chalcedon and in 1054, leaving the way open for the horrors of Europe during the Reformation. Perhaps someone was brought to belief in Jesus because of that – but I doubt it. If one examines the examples used by atheists to show how bad Christianity has been for the world, they include all this stuff and none of the many good things our faith has done and still does.
If we cannot learn, then we will continue to perpetuate a situation which must be a scandal to God. We are, He knows, poor enough witnesses, but we could try a bit harder – surely?
There seems to me only 3 instances of the word ‘heretic’ where it might be helpful: 1) when after self-examination one considers that they have been acting and speaking in such a manner and that they need be conformed to the Truth; 2) when the Church has formally and with great prudence declared ones views to be such which should lead one to an act of great introspection of what one truly believes and its consequences, so that we are not living lives that are completely self-willed; and 3) when it is used as a teaching aid to discuss the fallacy of a movement that is leading souls to conclusions that are detrimental to their soul should they carry such thoughts to their logical conclusion, such as an historical analysis of declared heresies.
Otherwise, the personal use of the word usually falls into the realm of public slander and is a source of scandal in and of itself.
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You are a man of much wisdom, SF.
S.
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Thank you Struans.
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Well said, SF.
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Thanks, NEO.
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No problem, my friend 🙂
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Your hands must be sore from patting each other on the back. (;-D
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Only when it is appropriate, and then it would be churlish not to.
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Say good brother Neo, whom do you say Jesus is? thanks in advance
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He’s the same Jesus as the rest of the company worship, Bosco. The only begotten Son of the Father, very God of very God, who was Crucified for our sins, and arose again on the 3d day.
Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, Evangelical, and all the rest, we all worship the same Jesus, and Him crucified.
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In other words, he was the Father, rite?
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No, Bosco, He was the only begotten Son of the Father.
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This is worster than i thought.Only good brother Quiav knows Jesus is the Father, in this god forsaken blog. The good news is, if you accept Jesus you have the Father also. The bad news is, if you die unsaved, Jesus wont know you at judgment. Mary cant help you. Cyril of Cyprian cant help you. The Pope cant help you. The golden trinkets cant help you. The brown scapular cant help you. The road to destruction is wide. And the followers of Cyril and Newman and the Popes will be on that wide road.
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It is much worse than any of us thought Bosco. If you had actually read any of St Cyril you might understand how Jesus and the Father can be one, and how Jesus can still sit at the right hand of the Father and pray to Him. Your problem is invincible ignorance. I will write a post just for you on such things.
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Thank you, dear friend – I think that is spot on 🙂
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A good post, my friend. 🙂
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Thank you – it was one I think I needed to write 🙂 xx
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I hope the recent fireworks didn’t cause you too much grief. 🙂 xx
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I can’t say they made me happy, but I always take the view that it is best to let these things take whatever course they need. I am grateful to you, Neo, and C for your help 🙂
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My pleasure, as I am sure it was for them as well. 🙂
I have a short piece that I have written to perhaps clarify some of my replies to QVO’s post above. I will send it to your email and you can decide what, if anything, you might want to do with it.
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As you know now, I love it. I am going to send you an invitation so I can publish it your name 🙂 x
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I’ll look for it Jess. Thanks. 🙂 x
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Thank you for responding. I will make sure it goes up tomorrow. 🙂 xx
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A nice post Jess. Hope you are well. I will post on India when my photos are all collated – there are a lot of them.
I have a comment in the spam queue again. Do you think that you can fish it out from there? I don’t know how to do that myself.
Many thanks,
S.
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Thank you. Yes, I will fish it out – C has been in a lecture all afternoon, but had alerted me to it 🙂 Looking forward to hearing about your trip to India.
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As I was reading this post and doing other things this quote came my way and I thought that it would be good to share it here.
St. Peter of Damaskos (Philokalia Vol.3; edited by Palmer, Sherrard and Ware; Faber & Faber pg.185): “For he who wishes to admonish someone or to give him advice – or, rather, to refresh his memory, as St. John Klimakos says – should first be purified of the passions, so that he may truly understand God’s purpose and the state of the person who asks his counsel. For the same medicine is not suited for all, even when the illness is the same.”
Thank y’all for your patience and tolerance of this silly sinner.
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Just got through reading your previous post and I like it. Thank you for not disregarding this silly sinner out of hand and please pray for me†††
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I am a convert. When I converted I found that it did meet my expectations, I love attending Liturgy, and there have been plenty of good folks that have patiently endure my silliness as I grew in the faith.
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Nice kiss up job good brother Iri. Good brother Quiav, and the religion he subscribes to, consider you and your religion damnable heretics.
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Oh, BTW the Roman Catholic Church does not totally reject the Eastern Orthodox, it is more the other way around. I can go into any Roman Catholic Church and receive the Eucharist, or a place to pray, yet if I do this then some Orthodox Church will admonish me,
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Chesterton said there is only one unanswerable argument against Christianity: Christians. How sad, but how true.
God bless
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Oh, its the other way around. Well, i was pointing out that , if you consider someone is doomed because of his membership in a religion, then its hypocritical to tell that one how wonderful he or she is.
BTW, how does one not totally reject something? Is like …kinda rejecting it, or sorta rejecting it?
My asking you who Jesus is…to find out if im alone in here thinking Jesus was the Father. Good brothers Chalcedon and Jeff dont think Jesus is the Father. Thanks for your response.
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Don’t know where you are going with your question about how one does not totally reject something. ya haven’t asked me who I think Jesus is, yet I will tell you as I have always been taught, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God and yet three individual beings.
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Good brother Iri, thats rite. May god bless you and your house. I had no idea that the pharisees in here didnt think Jesus is the Father. It proves my point that they are blind to scripture. The good news is, that Jesus will take them as they are.
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This may be the problem as to why Jesus doesnt answer the call to salvation for some in here. If one denies Jesus as deity, Jesus might withhold the holy ghost. Thats just a guess. My best guess is, that cathols have these images of who Christ is and thats how they pray to, and its not Christ. Satan won. He gives the wicked what they want….images and icons and false pictures that they worshi0p, not the invisible god.
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Pingback: Jesus is the Father? (1) | All Along the Watchtower
The many differences and debate among the body in my opinion will cease to exist as worldwide persecution comes upon the church. At that time great numbers who helped feed many of the debates will fall away, not willing to take the heat of persecution. What will remain from the refining fire is a pure body looking only for few simple things, such as; how they can help their brothers and sisters in Christ, how they can help reveal Christ in the hearts of men, and the return of their Lord and Savior.
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I hope and pray that we will unite; if we do not, it will go much harder with us. Thanks for commenting 🙂 Jess
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