I was glad to se that Bosco has opened up in his comments in the comboxes; it is so good to have some insight to why he thinks and feels as he does. I shall leave him and Chalcedon to examine the exegesis of Bible texts, as here, I want to say something about another aspect, which is, I think, at the heart of our recent discussions – namely the relationship we have with God.
I have never heard God speaking to me directly through Jesus in the way Bosco describes, and part of me is envious; how nice it would be to have no doubts; to have, in effect, faith replaced by certainty. But that is not how it is for me. There are times when I feel my faith is all but gone; times God seems very far away; but I know it is me who is far away. At those time I pray for the strength to carry on; and it comes; or at least, when I feel I cannot carry on because my strength is gone, I find myself carrying on, and I find my belief sustained in a way I cannot explain.
There are times when I cannot feel that warmth in my heart which I feel for Jesus when my relationship with Him is at its best; but then, in prayer, it will come to me that He died for me; that He loves me; and some Grace warms me again, and I feel the gratitude that love brings. I remember – and feel – that I have been freed from the captivity of sin, and that if I lean on Him He will carry me through; I know I need to rely less on me and more on Him.
There are times, and some not long ago, when I feel empty, broken and close to despair; unloveable and unloved (even though I know the last is not true, it feels like it). But then, from nowhere, it feels like His mercy washes over me, and I am, again, set free from the chains which drag me down. The feeling of His compassion swells within me, and it feels almost like I am being washed clean – a sort of baptism if you like.
This has long been a pattern for me. If I remember to pray every morning and evening, it is better; if I pray my Rosary, it is better still. But what I marvel at is that even when I fail to make time for Him, He has the time for me.
None of this is the sort of certainty of which Bosco speaks, and in many ways it seems to me that it must be lovely to have that. Am I ‘saved’? If I say I don’t know what that means, that is true. I know that at the last God will hold me to account for what I have done with the life he gave me. I don’t think that He will draw up a profit and loss account at which, if I have been a good girl, I will be rewarded, and a bad one, I will be punished. I believe in Jesus, and I believe that His sacrifice has washed away my sins. I believe that because of that, because His Grace operates within me, because I am supported by Him at the Eucharistic feast, that He will enfold me in His arms and let me be in His presence forever. Do I know that? I have faith it will be so.
All Along the Watchtower 
Of course, Catholics have gathered much information over 2000 years of spiritual people who desire to possess God more fully in their lives. Having some of the main stages of the spiritual life explained in a plain a language as possible is helpful since it is certainly a mystical in its actions on the soul. Msgr. Pope give us a very abbreviated look at the main phases of the spiritual process that takes place in the soul here: http://blog.adw.org/2013/11/on-the-purgative-illuminative-and-unitive-stages-of-spiritual-life-as-seen-in-a-cartoon/
For you and for most, we spend most of our lives in trying to purge ourselves of the dross that separates us from God: the sins, the attraction to sin and even the impediments in things that are frivolous and of no value. And we have a roller coaster ride mixed with ups (consolations) and downs (desolations) that help us. All of these are helps from God to assist us in our quest.
I feel your explanation, Jess, is typical to most of us. Nothing in it can be called objectively miraculous (like the experiences of Bosco) but is a slow walk and battle that ensues and takes a lifetime of work. That for most of is the work-a-day normative path. The other is like someone who hit a lottery and is (like Paul) given a special grace. This is not normative and it is also easily corrupted and rarely given and can bring corruption to the receiver as well: we are not to desire such experiences we are told. How may lottery winners have said that the lottery ruined their lives? It is much the same in the spiritual realm when one is not yet ready for such an experience and does not have a Faith to present these experience to and to guide our thoughts and experiences to something that is right and true and does not allow for pride to swell the breast for such a favor.
I’ll take the ordinary way rather than the way of an extraordinary experience any time. Its safer and the outcome is more consistently favorable.
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Thank you, dear friend. It is a quiet and gentle walk to Him and with Him and in Him – and for me, that is quite a roller-coaster 🙂 xx
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It is indeed. It is a pilgrimage with both hardships and beautiful vistas. 🙂 xx
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When I was a teenager, it seemed as though it had to be more exciting than this long haul; but I have come to realise that the journey itself is its own purpose; on it I learn what I need to learn – sometimes several times before I realise it 🙂 xx
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It is like an apprenticeship, isn’t it? You get to make all your mistakes under the tutelage of a very patient master craftsman as he corrects your mistakes and even lets you make them several times before moving on to the next lesson. 🙂 xx
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Very much so, dear friend – and very grateful I am too for His patience 🙂 xx
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As am I, my friend. 🙂 xx
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Jessica, this is a beautiful reflection. I am inept and inadequate to pontificate, but my sense is that we are called to “live in Christ” here and now Having been a member of various protestant churches in the past, I have concluded that there is no better place to do that than in the Catholic Church, with her daily spiritual disciplines, devotions, lives of the saints, daily mass, reception of the Eucharist, and all the sacraments really. The key is to love God with all our hearts and all our minds and all our souls. When we do this we are part of God’s kingdom, here on earth and in the world to come. When we don’t, well, that’s when the trouble sets in. We all stumble and fall on a daily basis, but the disciplines of the Church are an aid to us as a compass toward the right road. What I mean to be saying is that heaven is on earth now and we are most blessed to be called to the Supper of the Lamb.
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Thank you Joan. I find my Church the great crutch, the great hospital – and yes, I am not ashamed to say I need a crutch and a hospital – but when I meet Him at the Eucharistic Feast, then, well then He is in me and I am in Him.
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Another very moving post – thank you again for opening up and sharing your experiences like this. This is certainly something that most people will have gone through (I certainly have) and it is always comforting to hear of other people’s reflections on a shared experience.
Also, I agree with the two comments above: this is the ‘ordinary way’ of salvation – God gradually transforming our hearts with His grace through life’s journey, with all its ups and downs; re the riches available to guide us and sustain us, I most wholeheartedly agree – the process of growing ‘in Christ’, becoming conformed to His image, is well provided for by the many channels of grace to be found within His Body, the Church.
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Thank you, not least for being so encouraging. It is hard to discuss these things, but I think we have, here, reached a stage where not doing so is hindering our discussions. I am so glad to know that in this I am not alone 🙂 x
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That is okay – your posts are a great encouragement! As an aside, I found this short talk the other day by a Dominican Friar on the topic of redemption/salvation:
He only gets into the aspect of how it applies to the individual towards the end (last 10-15 mins), but it is well worth it, as he emphasises that redemption is indeed an ongoing process, and one that has love at its core, a love that really changes us.
So, if you have a spare 45 minutes, I’d highly recommend it. Cleared a lot of things up for me.
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What happens if you die befor this redemption process is finished?
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We all die before it is complete. Then comes the Judgement.
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The saved arent judged. Wait on the holy ghost
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Are they not, Bosco – can you give me the Scripture for that? 🙂 xx
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Jess see:
“… Whoever believes in Him is not condemned” John 3:16-18.
“Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he HAS crossed over from death to life” 5:24-27.
“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life has set me free from the law of sin and death” Rom. 8:1.
“He that has the Son HAS life” 1 Jn. 5:10-13 & 18
There are two eschatological judgments:
a)That of believers before the judgment seat of Christ (the Bema seat) at which we will all be judged in terms of our faithfulness and work done for Christ, which may prove valuable or worthless. In the latter case the believer will suffer loss but he himself will be saved 1 Cor. 3:12-15 and 2 Cor. 5:10.
b)The Great White throne is the judgment of ‘the world’ those who are not ‘in Christ’ those who are not found written in the book of life are condemned Rev. 20:11-15.
The texts quoted above Jn. 3:16-18, 5:24-27, Rom. 8:I indicate that Christ disciples will not come into this judgment of condemnation they have already passed from death to life and possessing Christ possess His life 1 Jn. 5:10-13 and 5:18 are kept from the power of sin and the harm of Satan. See also Jn. 10:27-29.
We can have assurance that God will not break this covenant of life He has made with us.
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Thank you Rob – very reassuring 🙂 xx Jess
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Jess, your post also brings to mind the great prayer, the Suscipe, of St Ignatius of Loyola:
Take Lord, and receive all my liberty, my memory, my understanding, and my entire will, all that I have and possess. Thou hast given all to me. To Thee, O lord, I return it. All is Thine, dispose of it wholly according to Thy will. Give me Thy love and thy grace, for this is sufficient for me. Amen.
There seems to be 2 types of people that are very common. Those who are simply looking for a ticket that says “saved” on it and those who humbly, live in remorse and continue to say, “Have mercy on me a poor sinner.” The first is self-centered as it is only about their own salvation. The second is Christ-centered and all they care about is the Love of God and being pleasing in His sight for love of Him. One feels assured and the other feels totally undeserving and their primary goal in life is the wish for Christ to be honored and love and not that they are given a pass they can show for entry into heaven. Of course, the sentiment of the above prayer is obviously of this second type.
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Thank you for that beautiful prayer; how I feel I can own it and offer it to God. 🙂 xx
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One of my favorite all-time prayers. Happy to share that with you and with all. 🙂 xx
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It will be one of mine now – thank you for such a precious gift 🙂 xx
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Let’s thank that wonderful soul, St. Ignatius for this gift that delivered him, no doubt, by the grace of God Himself. 🙂
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I join you in that 🙂 xx
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Oh thank you Saint Loyola, for hunting down and killing those who were tired of the corruption which is the hallmark of the CC. Thank you for sending their children on the street to beg for food.
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SF: Of course not all the comparisons automatically follow and certainly whether the language of being ‘saved’ is used does not indicate which category the person is in. However I agree there are such different types and a message presented as a ticket to have or an attitude that I have one and that’s all there is to it is extremely deficient. It sounds like ‘fire insurance’ rather than a spiritual life.
Where I fail to agree is the reference to Christian disciples as sinners that term is not used of believers. Scripture OT and NT always makes a distinction between those that the Lord has vindicated as ‘righteous’ as opposed to ‘sinners’.
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Whether you want call them sinners or not: most of us continue to sin. In the Catholic sense of mortal and venial sin, most drop the first category of sin more easily than the last. But we still sin. If I still sin, am I a sinner? You can call them whatever you’d like but I’d consider that being a sinner.
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I’m not calling anyone anything just stating Biblical categories. Of course we all sin no one doubts that.
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Agreed, sadly we do persist. 🙂
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“I have never heard God speaking to me directly through Jesus in the way Bosco describes, and part of me is envious; how nice it would be to have no doubts; to have, in effect, faith replaced by certainty.”
Did the show Joan of Arcadia never air in the United Kingdom? I remember how the entire show was about an agnostic high school girl who was able to talk to God.
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No, I can’t say I recall it, NES.
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But we do know of some sketchy characters from history that heard the voice of God. Rasputin comes to mind. 🙂
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Well, If I saw a man walking down the street, who the day before I had poisoned and shot then stabbed and thrown into a ice filled river, I may think this guy got some help. But I don’t think it was help nor the voice from God. His footpath leads not to God but to Blood.
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It’s kind of like a modernized St. Joan of Arc. Hence the name. She talks to God and then hurls questions at him throughout. Kind of like a Psalmist.
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Thats funny. I never heard Jesus talking to me either. Everything we need to know is in scripture. The Saducees in here keep making up stuff about me, since they dont know Christ from a hole in the ground, they assume i dont either. They believe what they can see. Golden cups and big shiney robes and towering graven images.
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“Everything we need to know is in scripture.”
Really? Certain about that?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_errors_in_the_Bible
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Newenglandsun I assume you are not serious here as if you are I will have to see many sunrises and sunsets while going to the four corners of the earth to find an answer for you. 🙂
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i like to use the liberal bible scholars every now and then to show these protestants the weakness of their sola scriptura heresy
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Actually no one uses sola-scriptura we all bring our reason, tradition, experience to it interpretation.
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By the way, I do accept the scientific positions that a) the Earth is at the centre of the universe and b) the Earth is flat.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Geocentricity
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Flat_earth
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ha, ha 🙂
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You have always said that you asked Jesus to come to you and he came. What did he come in a Model T? How do you know He came? What did He say? How do you know it was Him and not Satan in sheep’s clothing?He’s been known to do that.
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I was changed. I was given a new spirit. Why does everyone insist i heard a voice? I never once said i heard a voice. Not surprising. Once they get up from befor their graven images, they accuse me falsely and then condemn me for doing something i never did. Thats what religion does to a man.
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How do you know HE came? It’s simple, either HE spoke, you saw or you had a primary, or was it just a secondary, kinesthetic feeling.
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Yet again Bosco, you throw out inappropriate comments about ceremony and Icons. Answer me this, is the Ark of the Covenant a graven image??? Are the objects of the Tabernacle that God commanded to be made just empty ceremonial objects???
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jrj1701,
the bible is bosco’s idol it seems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliolatry
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Again many evangelicals make the same sort of self criticism and question whether they have worshiped God the Father, Son and Bible rather than FSS. It good for those outside evangelical circles to realize that such self criticism goes on.
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newenglandsun:
I have a friend and English lady nearly 70 who teaches special education. I work with her at times in evangelism. She has what I consider a prophetic gift. I was concerned and gave her the name newenglandsun and asked her to pray for you, as I was in contact with on-line and for her to see if the Lord gave her anything that might be useful to you, I told her nothing but the name.
Another friend that her and her husband mentors runs a modeling agency and he gives her the names of his models for her to pray for them. These people invariably have no contacts with church of any sort. Two of these models came to us for prayer for one she saw a mental picture (a vision) of him falling off a bicycle coming down a steep hill which she described. He confirmed he had an accident there and was left with a problem which was one of the matters he came to us to pray about. The other one she saw in a large house (unusual for a young Barbadian) and felt there was something wrong about it. He confirmed it was a description of the house he lived in with other young men and that he knew he must leave there as it was not a good place for him to be. Another time she woke at night concerned for one of the female models and prayed for her safety particularly that she would not be scarred. Sometime later she learned that the girl’s house had burned down that night. Here many poorer people live in wooden ‘chattel houses’. These revelations helped those in question come to faith. I could recount several other simple examples.
Anyway she came to me today and told me she had been praying for you. What you make of what she said will probably partly rely on whether you feel you can trust me when I say all I gave her was a name – anyway this is what she said:-
“I saw in my mind a picture of two bright new crossed swords and in the hazy background a historic hand battle taking place with swords.”
She said she had had this vision several days ago but had continued praying asking the Lord what the message was for you. And said:-
“This person is fighting today a battle from the past. God does not want this. He will bring a wave of healing for the pain, hurt, disappointment and raging disagreement, so that that chapter can be peacefully closed. It is today’s battles that must be fought.”
She said that what motivated you in the battle you were engaged in was hurt from the past more than the battle issues and that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal or violent (see 2 Cor. 3:5 & 7).”
She asked me to pass any comments you might like to maake about this to her to help guide her praying for you.
Rob
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One of the reason I believe in God is that God is rational and the universe He created is rational. With rational thought we can see into the mind of God.
Fusion is simple, the path there is hard, but it is at its base supremely rational. Jesus is rational, he can be comprehended through common sense, we live our life in patterns and those patterns are recognized by all, because they are shared by humans.
Jesus is not foreign to us, He is first Human then by the patterns leads us to God.
Bosco’s God or Jesus is not rational, A comes after B, there may not even be a C.. His reward patterns do not fit the patterns we live by, they are not rational.
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I think you have marked out some of the features of faith life which those of us in older churches feel, and which separate us from some of the newer churches. I’m still working on the article I referenced yesterday, here is another bit from it.
“Word and sacrament is what it’s all about. Christians are actually united in baptism with Christ on the Cross, and we actually receive Christ’s forgiveness by receiving his body and blood respectively broken and poured out for that forgiveness.”
I know that the Zwinglian (and Calvin’s as well) influence in my home church impeded this for me, it is one of the key differences, I think, in the Lutheran Church. The Real Presence in the Eucharist makes a huge difference (for me anyway). One could say, “It’s personal, not business”.
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I guess I’m not the only one on here from a Zwinglian tradition who finds it as an impediment on coming to God.
http://www.covchurch.org/who-we-are/what-is-the-covenant-church/history/
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Far from it, sometimes when I speak of Calvin, it might be more accurate for me to speak of Zwingli. My home church was one of those force to merge between the Lutheran Church and the Reformed in Prussia after the Napoleonic wars.
Much of my trouble was caused by the Zwinglian/Calvinistic tradition. It is also why you will find a different feel in Lutheran/Anglican/ and Catholic Churches compared to most American protestant churches.
There is a marked difference in beliefs which is reflected throughout the churches. I’m trying to get a post to come together on this, and I hope it will because I think it will shed some light.
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my history professor that i’m taking for witchcraft and christianity in the atlantic as well as for europe’s reformations is high church lutheran.
probably why i have difficulties calling high church lutherans and high church anglicans “protestants” due to my american protestant up-bringing.
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I pretty much am as well, and I can see your point, although as he might have told you, Lutherans are the original evangelical, as well. But much of American protestantism came from the Reformed and Anabaptist legs.
Lutherans and Anglican are sometimes cast as non-Roman catholics for that reason. That’s a good website, i’ll be reading more there by the way.
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that’s funny. my ecc pastor stated that the elca was hardly “evangelical”. my professor would probably deny any affiliation with the evangelical low-churchers. seems to group them with fundamentalists.
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I meant it to be, sort of. He’s not wrong on the ELCA, that’s part of my problem with it, and I’m in it. Still we all work from (mostly) “The Book of Concord”, and strangely the ELCA has recognized the apostolic succession through the Archbishop of Stockholm. It’s sort of a weird church, us Lutherans are. 🙂
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the only difficulties i have with the anglicans is that they aren’t dogmatic enough.
for instance, calvinism vs. arminianism. i would probably more likely enter into the lutheran church than the anglican church based on what i have heard on the free will stance from an ex-lutheran t.a. i had in another one of my classes (claims lutherans always laughed at those calvinists).
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It’s a problem for them, part of it is being the British State Church, and trying to cover the bases of British diversity. The American equivalent (Episcopalians) are somewhere off on the left side of even the ELCA. The 39 Articles are fine, if they would teach to it.
The Calvinists are more mainstream in America kind of, there are actually more Lutherans than almost anyone but Catholics but, it pretty fragmented.
I like my home church here a lot but it is a lot more conservative than the synod, if it weren’t I’d probably be looking at the Missouri Synod.
There’s also a Confessional Lutheran Church, often a subset of the MS which is even higher on the candlestick, and a Catholic-Lutheran ordinariate. Lots of choices. None really wrong, in the basic we all agree.
But to your point, yes, I would like to see more dogmatic teaching as well. Too much God is Love, not enough God of Justice floating around the last 50 years or so for me, and our moral climate shows it.
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God is love is an important dogma to embrace and should be emphasized strongly. God of justice in Protestant circles I fear might turn into chaos.
There definitely also needs to be an emphasis on natural theology and philosophy of God as a force of reason in the Church.
This, high churchmen do quite well at. Way better at than low churchmen. Low churchmen turn into irrationalities.
Moral theology and moral philosophy are important emphases. This is a weakness of Protestantism I fear. Hence, why so few low churched Evangelicals are willing to admit people might be born with a genetic disposition to homosexual or bisexual tendencies (might lead to their acceptance of it).
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That’s actually pretty much what I mean. I personally see no difference in admitting homosexuals to the church, any more than catholics should have with heterosexual priests. We believe, or say we do, that God loves us all, and will help us to overcome our weaknesses. I just don’t see the problem.
Force of reason is good, and a good way of putting it, I think.
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less emphasis on “bible says this!” more emphasis on gauging into the sacramental nature of theology, the importance of the sacred, and the importance of tradition.
i would gander that christians who study philosophy, theology, religion, or history, are more likely to enter a tradition-based church as opposed to a loosey-goosey low-church mainline evangelical church and/or liberal church.
hence why neither anglicanism nor low-church protestantism do it for me.
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I think that is probably a good rule of thumb, and it shows here. You notice that most of us are on at least our second church, and we’ve all moved toward more traditional/high church.
Anglicanism varies, from what Jess says her Anglican church is considerably higher than many Catholic parishes. Lutheran churches can be like this as well.
A lot depends on the congregation and the local clergy. But your rule holds here, lots of tradition and lots of historians as well. 🙂
But this is far from an average group, I suspect.
You’ll also find much agreement that songs written since 1940 should not appear in worship, for what that’s worth 🙂
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That of course is true of the denomination which tries to hold together a wide spectrum of opinions but it is not necessarily true of High Church Anglicans or the evangelicals. Many other denominations e.g. Baptists also have mixed opinions in even one congregation e.g. Calvinist, Armenian and Open Theist without dividing over it. It does not mean the individuals are not firm in their opinion.
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Jess just a few comments on your post:
“There are times when I feel my faith is all but gone; times God seems very far away; but I know it is me who is far away.”
I think in a strange way the above indicates the same error as Bosco is often making. The focus seems to be on ‘feeling’ and a thought that when the feeling is absent that you are far from God. I do not think that way at all – it’s just a feeling (maybe a bad hair day or me a bad car day sorry to be sexist). I goes back to the same issue asking Jesus in and feeling nothing – but our faith and salvation has nothing to do with our fickle and changing feelings.
From what you say you seem to ‘feel’ God’s grace much more than me, whereas I do not take my feelings into account and am certain of may salvation.
“Am I ‘saved’? If I say I don’t know what that means … I believe in Jesus, and I believe that His sacrifice has washed away my sins. I believe that because of that, because His Grace operates within me, because I am supported by Him at the Eucharistic feast, that He will enfold me in His arms and let me be in His presence forever. Do I know that? I have faith it will be so.”
All the evangelical Christians I have known over 58 years I’m sure would say you have clearly expressed your repentance and faith and were ‘saved’. Whether it’s a term you use or understand or not.
When I say this I am not claiming that we can tell infallibly who is and who is not saved – but such an assessment would be made prior to baptism or in many places admission to communion.
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Rob, I don’t know exactly what Jess’ church says but usually hers, mine, and the RCC track pretty closely, and mine says that we are saved BY baptism, originally. We don’t know who is saved (whatever that somewhat squishy term means). But we live our lives after baptism in His grace, and in receiving him at the eucharist our faith is renewed. It is decidedly not for us to know.
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Yes I’m aware of that but it does not seem to be what Jess says or even others when we speak of repentance and commitment to Christ.
Also SF has stated that the grace of baptism is remains in the soul but is ineffective if there is never any personal response to Christ. There are many atheist and even outright opponents to the gospel who are atheists – what has their baptism achieved? I have been meaning to create a post to try and address a way in which we may understand one another.
I just finished reading the life story of Canon Dr. Michael Green one of the foremost Anglican evangelicals who has worked with High church Evangelicals and RC in many nations . I hope to draw something to post from the book.
There is still a lot to clarify on this matter. The term ‘saved’ is not somewhat squishy if you reflect on it throughout scripture – I’m in the middle of a reply to Bosco to help him with that – perhaps it should be a post also.
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Rob – sounds so interesting – and at least a couple of posts there 🙂 xx Jess
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At the risk of being a bit sexist myself, I think part of it is gender related, as well. Jessica, like many women, I suspect, is more attuned to her feelings where I like many men tend to work more in logical patterns, neither is really right or wrong, they’re just different.
And yes, baptism is not an end state, so to speak, some say i is the cure for original sin, and that the way we live our lives has more to do with where we end up.
There’s room for quite a few posts in the area, I think, and it would be interesting to explore as well.
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I think that a relationship in which feeling is absent would surely be a strange one, Rob? It isn’t that I dwell on my feelings, but that are, for me, a part of a relationship :). Does that make sense.
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Jess I fully agree. However ‘feelings’ are hardly ever present for some and infrequently for others. You did not find them initially when pressed by evangelicals and some evangelicals have very few. A certain knowing and security ‘in Christ’ that is somewhat difficult to describe is another matter. The relationship proceeds by faith for many with little awareness of feelings.
This was described to us in one comment quoting the experience Mother Teresa in this way. I understand certain saints have referred to as the dark night of the soul which may continue for long periods. SF: probably could enlighten us on this.
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I agree Rob, and what I have found is the need for silence and stillness where I can be aware of Him. All that noise and demanding He show Himself actually got in the way of the silence where He was to be found.
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Silence usually does not work for me – worship through singing meaningful words to the Lord far more frequently will bring a sense of His presence.
But most powerful I experience the Lord when I reach out to serve others.
I think that’s a point we have tried to make with Bosco we are all different.
Neo suggested a difference between male and female psychology and there is also a difference in our gifting and how we are led to fulfill them.
There a probably many other factors, besides matters that can block the awareness of the Lord’s presence. This is why feelings although important are as SF: says a poor barometer of our spiritual health.
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I agree, Rob. I am finding a powerful support in the classes I am helping to teach – there is, indeed, something about helping others which gives a powerful sense of God.
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It does to me Jess. Humans have emotions and within our spiritual lives we are likely to experience emotions that range anywhere from despair to total elation. The only problem with that is that many people use their emotional state as a barometer for where their spiritual life is or where it is headed. That is question best suited to those who have gone through these ups and downs and succeeded. A good spiritual director is a great grace if one can find one these days.
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Difficult to find, but I have a good priest who guides me. I agree, that if we rely only on our emotions, then we are indeed like the weather vane; but I can’t quite gras a relationship without some emotional investment 🙂 x
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Indeed not. Do we not burn with love for Christ? Can that not be that largest factor that drives us on in this life? 🙂
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I’d hope so, my dear friend 🙂 x
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As do I, friend. 🙂 xx
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Rob, I was having a hard time finding a place to put this (short?) comment concerning the “dark night of the soul” question you asked below to Jessica – so I hope this isn’t confusing.
Dark nights (whether spoken of in this way or not) are common to all Christians though if unrecognized can leave people discouraged and sometimes drive them from the faith which is truly tragic. That is why the theology of prayer is useful to us if we are to dust ourselves off and continue the journey.
The first ‘dark night’ is the dark night of the senses where our desires for all we thought was enjoyable and worthwhile in life become empty and bring us great distress as we try to purge our disordered lives into something that is ordered in Christ. It is at this point where many end their formal spiritual aspirations. Yet, it is only the beginning and the Lord is teaching us as only He can how the Love of God is far above any personal desires and wants that we might harbor.
From there, just when the pilgrim is once again gaining his balance and strengthening his transformation in Christ, it is common that the next phase is entered upon: the dark night of the soul. This is a much more interior purgation of ourselves than occurred in the first. In this state, the soul is profoundly confused and feels nothing: no consolation, no joy and yet, if this is not caused by one’s own sloth, it strips one down to the essence of love for loves sake and not for our own gain. This is what Mother Teresa of Calcutta and so many other saints have encountered. For they are the brave ones that ventured on. This state can last for many years, even tens of years. But in the end they are purified as in crucible – their love is pure and unstained by personal gain and they are usually blessed with an outpouring of this love received by God in their nature and in their work.
One can easily understand that this is much like the Catholic idea of purgatory: only that our purgatory, this painful purging and purification is taking place on earth rather than after our death. For the idea is the same. The “Living Flame of Love” (another book title by St. John of the Cross) is enkindled in the soul and becomes like to the fire of God’s love: the flames taking on the brightness and converging into a single blaze. Those who make it this far are then hopefully ready to enter into the last stage of purification which is called the unitive way. This is where one walks with Christ as another Christ and who would rather day than even harbor a single imperfection. Few make it to this stage though we conclude that this path is available to all and that God calls us all to this type of sainthood and few answer. This to us is the narrow gate.
I hope, this brief explanation, gives a little glimmer of what I mean when I speak of the dark nights.
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SF: thanyou for that explanation. The general pattern of experience I have passed through is as follows:
I became a Christian 57/58 yrs ago when I was 10 or 11 years old and had an immediate sense of God’s presence, joy and a certainty of faith that has never been shaken.
I was brought up in constant opposition to my faith and continual criticism by my guardian for my failures this led to much self doubt but not doubt of Christ or unbelief.
Coming through that sense of guilt I moved into a long period with a ready sense of love for God and of His presence in prayer and worship.
For the last 20 years, except for a few intervals and some brief infrequent moments my experience has been as you describe “no consolation, no Joy”. During these intervals I had sometimes thought I was returning to the regular experience of former times but this proved not to be the case.
A more frequent exception over this time is when engaged in ministering to others. I see God active ‘through me’, as I proceed by faith. I pray for others and I have seen them experience some dramatic spiritual events while the situation ‘for me’ remains the same. I have often longed for the closeness of the Lord I see others experience as I pray for them.
I had spoken about this in the past with a Catholic who had read some spiritual works which is how I first became aware of the terminology ’dark night of the soul’.
I will have to see if there is further progress. My wife has also spent a lifetime in serving the Lord. Recently she drove past a horse racing track here and felt the Lord told her to beware as many horses that had run fell at the last fence.
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Yes, we all seem to see these patterns emerge in our spiritual lives if we are serious about wanting to purge ourselves of anything that is offensive to our Lord. You, like many of the saints find their missions striving while they themselves experience none of the joy that those around them do – and this is common. The success of a ministry is proof enough for us that Christ is still using us to do His work. Many, unfortunately, stop striving for they supposed from some preconceived idea that as they progress the feelings and the warmth of this relationship with Christ would intensify, while the exact opposite seemed to be their experience. Had they continued, they would find that answers to their doubts would come in time and that our Lord only tests those whom He has given sufficient grace to endure these hardships.
Indeed, my wife had a breakdown some years back (I believe that it was precipitated by scrupulosity – which is rare these days). The inadequacy she felt was intense and her depression was extremely deep. However she has recovered and she continued in her ministry to the Church and I believe she is more solid today and level headed in all issues presented to her by our Lord. I consider her a real asset for those who feel lost: for she overcame that and can advise those people better than someone who has only read of such things.
Your wife’s feeling about the horses and the real prospect of not persevering to the end always prompts me and others to pray for perseverance in the faith. Sometimes it gets hard but we must continue striving; for when we stop, we start sliding backwards. Stumbling is fine – we just must let Christ pick us up and set us back on the path once again. And sometimes we don’t feel like he is the one picking us up: it feels like we are doing it on sheer will power alone.
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I am not claiming that we can tell infallibly who is and who is not saved
What do you mean “We” Keemosabe?
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Bosco by ‘we’ I mean ‘anybody’
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“Am I ‘saved’? If I say I don’t know what that means, that is true.”
“If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.” – St. Joan of Arc (while I’m still on that subject – at least partially)
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