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At the beginning of the Octave of Christian unity, Carl d’Agostino made an excellent comment yesterday, which sets the scene for some meditation on the topic:
I cannot understand how some(and I never question their commitment to Christ in alternative perception and am resentful that mine is questioned and ridiculed as heretical in my general submission to the Presbyterian Westminster Confession) can declare with such authority, assurance and in exclusive possession of proper Christianity and are so concretely confident and dismissive . It seems to suggest that God submit to their doctrines suggesting that the earnest discernment of others, whether Catholic or Protestant are invalid.
That is a real problem – and cuts to the heart of what divides us; but it also suggests, I think, that if we understood aright, then it points to what unites us.
As SF and Rob have both noted, the Christian life is a journey, and one in which one either strives and advances, or ceases to and falls back. I want to leave aside the question of the assurance of being saved, partly because I have nothing remotely useful to say on it, and partly because I think Rob has, and I hope he might be persuaded to do a post on it. But I do want to look at this idea that God submits to the doctrines of any Church.
The Church would say that the doctrines are revealed. If we look at the history of the Nicene Creed we can see the reality of the messiness with which this revelation takes place; that is our fault, of course, not God’s. He works through us, and if, from this crooked timber, He builds straight, then the glory and the praise are to Him. The Creed set out at Nicaea in 325 was not accepted by all, and there were times in the next fifty or so years when it looked like it would be overturned; it was added to in 381 at Constantinople, and it was not until Chalcedon in 451 that its new form was widely accepted; in fact it was not until them that most Christians learned about the Constantinople Council. During all of that time there were proposals, counter-proposals and quarrels and excommunications without number. There is no doubt that those doing the excommunicating thought they were right and that they were damning their opponents to hell. Do they come under the remit of what SF has called ‘religious but not spiritual’?
This is difficult, because we have to concede, I think, that all these men were sincere and all were trying to be good Christians. Yet, undoubtedly, some were in error, and mortal error at that. To that there seem to me a number of possible reactions. Mine is that I can see why it was necessary in pursuit of the truth to insist on the evil of error, but that I can also see why those excommunicated resented it.
We, in the West, often think of the Reformation as the dividing line in religious history, but that was a late-comer. In 431 those who refused to accept the Council of Ephesus and the declaration of the ‘Theotokos’ found themselves outside ‘the Church’, even though many of them had never been to the Council and were really objecting to the treatment of Nestorius. In 451 large numbers of Christians in Egypt, Syria, the Holy Land and that area found themselves outside the Church. In 1054 the same happened with the Chalcedonian Orthodox. Yet, the descendants of all these Christians are there in the Churches all of which claim they are the Church, and all of which have survived horrible persecution.
Now I do not know how this can be so, but I also cannot understand how only one of this group of Churches can be the sole right one. I have a sense of seeing through the glass darkly here.
I think all of on this site agree with all the creeds Jess has mentioned (apart from those three little words) and the matters we differ on are further down the line. While the early divisions mentioned had elements of misunderstanding and language problems. Also I do not think Nestorius reluctance to accept the designation ‘Mother of God’ was essentially about a difference in Christology but over his concern about the elevation of Mary. Whether his concern was justified we have debated enough that is not my point.
I wondered if the designation ‘Mother of God Incarnate’ had been proposed the council with Nestorius whether the history of the church would have been dramatically altered by on word and its united church front left us with a world today that was more Christian in many regions now subdued by Islam.
If there is any truth in this it seems to me that it is the way we go about our thinking and dealing with and balancing concepts and shades of meaning rather than benefiting from one another we need to knock one another down and fight our corner because our view must we think be the only one that will aloe us through the ‘pearly gates’.
I thought of two cartoons Carl might like to produce for us. In one a bunch of guys arrive at the pearly gates in fish hats and fancy dress and Peter hand out baseball caps and says “come in fellas”. The alternative cartoon obviously has my lot arriving in baseball caps and jeans and we get the fish hats and costumes handed out. Perhaps a third could have us all arriving together in a wonderful holy mix up swapping hats as we realize the match is over and we have all become winners by Gods grace.
Bosco might even not be prepared to swap his hat then but I think Pete will let that go we’ll have plenty of time to sort that out.
I have been told that the whole Western way of thinking setting one concept against another like our courts prosecution and defense is very unlike the Hebrew mind set,. This mind set draws things together, sees views as aspects holds the tension while walking together – so I’m told. So we have various branches of Judaism but they are few and more united that Christians. Other may know how much truth there is in this observation
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Which variations as well. Christian followers of the Byzantine Rite don’t accept the filioque clause. Fortunately, us Greek Catholics have been able to compromise with the Roman Catholics on this.
I assume “Mother of God” is what you mean by the three words?
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No by the three little words I meant the filioque which I think is the only clause in all the creeds mentioned by Jess that we do not agree on.
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Ah. Yes.
By the way, this is how the Greeks and the Latins embraced compromise.
http://www.stjosephukr.com/about/profession-of-faith/
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Newenglandsun, I noticed today you have a blog, I will have read what you say. thanks tom
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I thought you agreed with Rome so you could have the most beautiful white churches overlooking the blue Aegean sea from a picturesque island rocky cliff. You accept the filioque and you got to veto the building of any beautiful churches, look at California churches for proof. You win hands down on beauty.
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They don’t debate Rome.
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No sir, you pick and choose who in the Church you follow, you have made that point more than abundantly clear. Your answer to unity is that everyone submit to the Church of YOUR UNDERSTANDING, if any leaders vary from YOUR UNDERSTANDING you are quick to label them as heretics and refuse to obey them. All very convenient. You cherry pick and respond with words that are of the devil, for Christians are not at war with other humans, We are at war with the devil and his minions. I pray for you and hope that He will reveal His Truth to you so that you may repent of the error of your pride.
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http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/document-library-mainmenu-97/33-document-library/documents-of-the-byzantine-catholic-churches
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Are the priests in your Greek catholic church currently allowed to marry or is the rule just that those married upon your union with Rome may remain married?
I was in Barcelona recently and Passed a church with beautiful singing and went in for a while I think it was One of the Orthodox churches that had reunited with Rome.
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http://www.jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html
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ROB I will see what I can come up with based on your ideas. Most suggest I should stick to cartoons and eschew theology anyway.
JESS It seems most participants here agree that it is the common denominators that are what are most important and that living a charitable life perhaps is a sign. Jesus and Paul explained that it is not the rules but the embrace that counts.
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i agree Carl. I have one coming up later on why I think Bosco’s approach is actually very damaging.
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I look forward to our next comic strip theology – thanks Carl
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Carl – Just think of it as 100 scientists ordering steak, when you only got chicken. You scored a bulls-eye on living a charitable life, love is the key, theology can be forgiven, but not lack of love.
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I like that one Tom
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I think everyone is aware that the Orthodox view accurately summarizes every NT text on the matter and follows the earlier tradition.
The problem to my mind is that RC Church has dug a hole for itself and never retrace its steps, admit their error and revise their theology. To do so would compromise their whole system and basic claims. So they try a conciliatory approach here to smooth relationships while failing to deal with the root issues.
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Are you familiar, Rob, with what the Church actually means by the filioque? Aidan Nichols here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rome-Eastern-Churches-Study-Schism/dp/1586172824 offers a good exposition which shows, as one might expect, that the Orthodox do not understand what the Catholic Church means. They think it teaches a double-procession, which is not at all the case; that would be heresy. The Son proceeds from the Father, and if the Spirit proceeds from the Father only, and not through the Son, then it makes sense not only of Mt 10:20, Rom 8:10-11, 2 Cor 1:21-22, Eph 3:14-16,which say the Spirit proceeds from the Father, but also of Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, Phil 1:19, 1 Pt 1:11 where we are told He is the Spirit of the Son. As there is perfect communion between the three persons of the Trinity, to suppose the Spirit proceeded from the Father with no part for the Son would be to suppose a less than perfect union.
This is part of the problem, that even a well-informed Christian like yourself takes a view of the Catholic Church which the Church does not, itself, take. This is clear from the Catechism which makes it clear that union is still possible on the filioque issue through the recognition that the formulas “and the Son” and “through the Son” mean the same thing: “This legitimate complementarity [of expressions], provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed” (CCC 248).
This is why constant dialogue is necessary. The Church cannot err in its theology as it is guided by the Holy Spirit. Christ promised that, we believe what Christ said, and we see no need to play with definitions of what Church Jesus founded, when He said He founded it on Peter. I understand why non-Catholics have to play with words, but the fact that for many centuries no one said anything like modern Protestants say ought to make you think about whether that is because you are wiser than the Fathers, or because you may be in error.
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And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father “and the Son”,
Yes I understand what filioque means and I can read English and the three last words inform us that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as from the Father.
I think this is another case of the RCC trying to redefine these three words, which it inserted in the creed in error, without admitting that they produced an inaccurate statement.
From the Father through the Son is accurate ‘and the son is not’. ‘Through’ and ‘and’ do not mean the same thing but the RCC has not got the humility to reconcile with the Orthodox on their terms on this point it’s that simple.
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That seems unduly pernickety as the conjuction ‘and’ is a weak one, whilst the conjunction ‘through’ is a stronger one. How can the Spirit proceed from the Father through the Son and that not mean ‘from the Father and the Son’? It is this sort of logic-chopping which is unnecessary, as many Orthodox realised in the 1400s, but their leaders preferred to let Constantinople be sacked and thousands killed or sold into slavery instead. I think one can see from that where the pride lay.
When I was Orthodox I found almost no Orthodox theologian who felt this was a problem – but try saying it and the Athonite monks will break up another monastery.
The RCC is happy to recognise the Orthodox as a valid Church, but the latter will not respond in kind. That is where, I am afraid, it is both simple and complex. Whenever the Ecumenical patriarch makes a conciliatory gesture, his own hard-liners (for which read Athonite Monks) accuse him of heresy and try to be a Pope. As there is no leadership in the OC capable of making a decision for that Church, it cannot act on what many of its theologians know to be the truth.
After years to trying to make headway, I made my own ecumenical gesture and crossed the Tiber.
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St. Augustine speaks for me on the filioque, I accept it because the church says it is so.
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Jessica has asked if I will post this from Neo, who cannot, at the moment, get onto the site to post, so here goes:
Neo:
Jess, I have to admit that I had that experience as well. As with yours, it was as a teenager, and I was a chubby and insecure one. It haunted me for years, and for several yeas (twice) it drove me from the church. If I understand the language,bit was formative, and being in a Calvinistic church, it was devastating.
Essentially, I came to the conclusion that I might as well do whatever felt good (to me). I’ve been apologising to God, and begging his forgiveness for many years now. Luckily, I don’t think my selfishness did too much damage to anyone but, I only have Providence to thank for that.
That is the danger of Bosco’ belief, the damage it can cause ripples like a stone thrown in a pond. There is a return as you, dearest friend, and I know but, many never find it.
yrs Neo
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