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I have quite often heard people say that although they believe in Jesus, they have no time for ‘organised religion’. Well, quite apart from the usual clergy joke that anyone who has been to their church couldn’t mistake it for anything ‘organised’, there’s a series of serious points to be made here, some of which follow from my earlier post on ‘being saved’.
I am not sure what it means to ‘believe in Jesus’ outside of the context of Christianity. What Jesus is this? Is this the Jesus who reveals Himself in the Bible? Well, that Jesus is the one revealed to us through the book brought together by the Christian Church; it is its foundation document, although Jesus Himself is its foundation. If the idea is that you can read the Bible and have it all instantly explained to you by the Holy Spirit, that seems to me a nice idea, but entirely unscriptural. It would also be more convincing if the Holy Spirit seemed to be telling all those who believe in this fashion the same thing.
My dear friend, Servus Fidelis, provided me with a most interesting link here to the phenomenon of people who describe themselves as ‘spiritual but not religious’. I would agree with the author, James K Firtpatrick, who says that for some people, this can be a way into Christianity as they try other faiths or spiritual practices, find there not what they want, and so move on until they find Christianity. As he puts it: ‘I would argue that we must keep in mind the role of grace in our spiritual lives when dealing with this group’. As he reminds us: ‘ Successful missionaries know how to nurture this non-Christian spiritual yearning; how to build upon a quest for the divine in life. Ordinary’. This, I think, is something close to what Rob has written here about interacting with those on a spiritual quest.
But there is another sort of person who holds to this view, who is not open to such dialogue because they have decided that they need a faith which allows them to behave as they feel they need to behave. This means that no dogma and doctrine are essential to them, as these things interfere with their ‘personal freedom’. They argue that it is enough to be ‘good’ and ‘moral’, without defining what they mean by those things.
What is lacking in both approaches though is the recognition that God is real. He is not a construct of our imaginations with whom we can negotiate. He is the all-powerful Creator of Heaven and Earth who, through the Law and the Prophets, and latterly through the Incarnation and the New Covenant, has revealed to us what it is we should be doing to live the sort of life which will allow us to grow in His image. All of this is transmitted to us through the Church which Jesus established. It may well be that some individuals get a direct message, although this is not what we are shown in Scripture, where it is a relatively rare phenomenon.
As we come to God, in whatever way we do, we need a community to help us grow, even as we need a prayer life and spiritual practices. The Good News here is we don’t have to make this up anew, there are wonderful Christians who have been where we hope to follow, and they have left us prayers, meditations and other writings which help us to do so. This is because, for me at least, and I know for many of us, there has been no one-off conversion experience where I passed from unbelief to belief, but rather a gradual growth on a long journey. For me, Christianity is the essential part of my own pilgrimage. I know nothing beyond what the Church teaches me. I lack the ability to turn to those whom God has set in authority above me and to tell them they are in error. Perhaps if the Spirit spoke to me directly, I might do that. But I believe He is speaking to me – through the medium of the Church which, has passed through the ages carrying with it God’s message.
I know that here we have many definitions of precisely what that Church is, and I am not, as most of you know, one of those who feels she can say, with any authority, it is x or y. I see it where I see Christians do what Christ told us. So often, so many forget that He said that people would know we were His by the love we showed each other. That, I hope, I can do here and outside.
“I know that here we have many definitions of precisely what that Church is, and I am not, as most of you know, one of those who feels she can say, with any authority, it is x or y. I see it where I see Christians do what Christ told us.”
Well spoken. I cannot understand how some(and I never question their commitment to Christ in alternative perception and am resentful that mine is questioned and ridiculed as heretical in my general submission to the Presbyterian Westminster Confession) can declare with such authority, assurance and in exclusive possession of proper Christianity and are so concretely confident and dismissive . It seems to suggest that God submit to their doctrines suggesting that the earnest discernment of others, whether Catholic or Protestant are invalid.
“As we come to God, in whatever way we do, we need a community to help us grow, even as we need a prayer life and spiritual practices. The Good News here is we don’t have to make this up anew, there are wonderful Christians who have been where we hope to follow, and they have left us prayers, meditations and other writings which help us to do so.” Very wise indeed.
These “wonderful Christians” are found in all denominations professed by men and women clearly filled with the Holy Spirit as living charitable lives and giving testimony not by doctrine but by example in all things carrying the principles of faith in all their affairs.
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Thank you, Carl, I think we are absolutely on the same page here. 🙂 xx
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It occurs to me that these types are so common that they effect many of us at sometime during our lives. It is part of the process of self-examen that we perform to get the last vestiges of these errors eradicated before our pilgrimage is over.
Further it seems that the opposite error, Religious But Not Spiritual, can similarly affect the soul that has grown cold. So being aware of these things seems a good thing to meditate on before our Lord and ask Him to show us if we too are prone to these errors and if so, to help rid us of these.
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Yes, religious and not spiritual is a good topic 🙂 xx
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We err in both directions. 🙂 xx
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St John was right about us 🙂 xx All err, all sin – but let us love one another all the same.
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Amen, to that. It is what our Christian community as well as God commands.
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Indeed it is dear friend, and I hope that in our small way we do our part to show it here 🙂 x
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When I think back to some of the conversations and dialogue in the earlier days, I would say we have indeed moved forward in this community of believers. 🙂 x
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I hope so, dear friend 🙂 x
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Thank you for your post, Jessica. It has always irritated me how splintered and contentious the Church is in dealing with each other. I have recently seen where a Catholic has decreed that the protestants worship the devil. When I come across this garbage I want to lash out my anger at this misguided individual, to crudely remind him that it is not his place to define and discern where the Holy Spirit is, it is his place to obey those that God has placed over him and to not make their job any harder. There is nothing wrong in learning about God and the glory of Christ’s Church if that does not lead to judging others and condemning them to hell because they do not see what you see and are not subject to your circumstances.
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I agree wholeheartedly 🙂 xx
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I never understood the idea that spiritual is not or different from religious. It seems whatever protocol that you use to get spiritual is your personal religion.
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Car, I’m not sure about that. There are those that are spiritual with God and those without. they are the ones that believe in a “Higher Power or a Collective Unconsciousness.” These tend to limit their beliefs to this concept.
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Agree. I understand the Higher Power as I am at the 7 AM meeting at an organization for alcoholism (that remains anonymous in public discussion) most days. 11 years, 11 months clean and sober by the grace of our Lord after being “out there” for 35 years. I am not ashamed to reveal I am in recovery as it is testament to the wonderful healing power available in Christ.
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And that’s a good testimony Carl!
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Good for you Carl!
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This might raise some questions:
“I am not sure what it means to ‘believe in Jesus’ outside of the context of Christianity”.
What it means is a very wide spectrum from the orthodox vies to he was a good man, a prophet or the closest being the Muslim view i.e. a prophet, the logos, born of a virgin and the Messiah of Israel. So there are those who recognize something of the grater picture we see and wish to emulate him and even do so as part of their response to God.
Yes exactly ‘… “Keep in mind the role of grace in our spiritual lives when dealing (spiritual seekers)”
“There is another sort of person …they need a faith which allows them to behave as they feel” This group are those who reject repentance. The real issue is not the faith they want’ but ‘the repentance they reject’. They are those who “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” Rom 1:18 All honest people know they are not what they should be by reason of conscience but SOME suppress the truth Rom. 2:15
“God is real He is not a construct of our imaginations with whom we can negotiate” neither is He a captive of our churches or the Christian faith in justifying men.
“All of this is transmitted to us through the Church which Jesus established. It may well be that some individuals get a direct message, although this is not what we are shown in Scripture, where it is a relatively rare phenomenon.”
The above tends to make God a captive of the church and salvation its sole commodity to distribute. We work with God we do not possess the sole franchise for the product.
Scripture teaches us that there is a natural revelation of God sufficient to cause a faith response and relationship towards God irrespective of the Gospel. Such faith-relationship results in the declaration of their justification by God through the ‘faithfulness of Jesus the Christ’, which faithfulness is the basis for God’s just act in passing over their former sins. These are those of Rom. 2:15 who obey the law written on their hearts and who “seek for glory honour and immortality who will receive ‘eternal life’ to the Jew first and also to the Greek”.
I am not here suggesting that the role of the church is anything other than Jess has explained as we grow in Christ.
I am referring to salvation and those who will receive it as a much wider group than Old Covenant or NT Christian believers. I am referring to those identified throughout scripture as the righteous as opposed to the sinners. Job was declared righteous by the Lord but he was not sinless. His companions sought to disprove his righteousness but were incorrect. As was Abraham’s righteousness so was Job’s, God vindicated him to his opponents Job was God’s man in a faith-relationship with him evidenced in his works.
There are no doubt many other Job’s throughout the world and one task in our evangelism is to seek out those whom God is already declaring righteous and bring the fullness of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to them e.g. Cornelius Acts 10.
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It is hard for me to believe something so counter to normal knowledge. To be a good painter, you must paint, to be a good pilot, you must fly, to be a good in anything you must practice endlessly. Religion is no different, you must be taught, do the practical work, see if it meets the tests standard, be taught the next new standards, do the practical work, see if it meets the tests standards, over and over.
I can not speak for women, but for men, you give them a coffee break and you got to start all over again.
Jesus and me is a disaster, because in the end ‘me’ alone is a disaster without the measure of other people. People are the practical work, the church is the standard, for it is the pillar and foundation of truth. not me, and not St Bosco.
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>>>>>for men, you give them a coffee break and you got to start all over again.
Ah…but I prefer tea 😀 (just kidding, however, my favourite fictional tv character does!)
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“I can not speak for women, but for men, you give them a coffee break and you got to start all over again.”
It reminds me of an old Polock joke. A woman was inspecting a new house that was almost finished. She was being taken around by the builder. In each room he would lean out the window and shout, “Green side up!” finally, after he’d done this five times she asked him, “Why to do you shout ‘Green side up’ out the window in each room we’ve been in.” He replied, it’s after lunch and I’ve got a bunch of Polocks laying sod.
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