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It is nice to see Bosco back with us, not least because, as in his latest comments on Geoffrey’s last post, he directs us to focus on an uncomfortable phenomenon over which it is easy to pass because, to many, his style invites a dismissive response. But I want to focus on what he says because, in the absence of a longer piece from Bosco himself (alas, he says he can’t post any more and as the system says he can, I can’t sent him another invitation, so we seem to be stuck with posts – though if he wants to put on in the comments, I can turn it into a post for him in his name), I want to put some of his comments into an attempt to see if I can understand him; I hope he will respond where I get him wrong, and comment on this.
Commenting on an earlier post of Geoffrey’s, Bosco wrote:
“as with Bosco, these folk mysteriously recognise each other’s voice.”
Close. We hear the shepherds voice in other saved folks. Yes, and to the unsaved it is a mystery.
He went on to say ‘My sheep know my voice’. In response to Geoffrey’s post about ‘Passing on the Flame’, he added:
That is what the unsaved are doing….is passing on the flame to their kids. making them twofold the child of hell as themselfs
Now, here is where, as being ‘unsaved’ in Bosco’s sense, I may well be unable to understand what is being said here, but let me have a go.
As I understand Bosco’s experience, he is saying that if we really ask Jesus to show himself to us, he will. This, as far as I know, is unscriptural, but if Bosco can show me where it is, I would be grateful. As far as I can see it is not used in the Bible and I can find no record before about the eighteenth century of any Christian using it.
I am not sure, but again, am willing to stand corrected if I am wrong, but I have a sense that Bosco makes a distinction between Christianity, which he seems to see as a ‘religion’, and his own personal experience.
But Pastor David Platt has argued that this idea is a fairly modern ‘superstition’ with no Biblical warrant – ‘a very dangerous thing’ to let people think they are Christians when ‘they have not responded to the Gospel’ – it is, he thinks ‘damning’. He asks where this fits with Christ’s message of preaching his Gospel. If Jesus had, he implies, meant to say that we should just say a prayer asking him into our hearts, he would have done so. But the notion that that is what he wants leads, Platt, argues, to a shallow, selfish faith which amounts to little more than an assurance of personal salvation, which usually fails to translate itself into St James’ description of ‘true religion’ or in Pauline missionary activity.
It seems, if I have got Bosco’s meaning right, that he is asserting that Christianity is unnecessary. All one needs is to really ask Jesus to show himself to you and he will, and from that point on the Spirit guides you. If that is what Bosco believes then he is right in asserting a difference between that and Christianity.
I would love to have Bosco’s take on this.
I wasn’t even considered a Christian by my family until I prayed this “sinner’s prayer”.
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I have heard that from others – yet it isn’t in the Bible at all.
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It is from the Pilgrims who had rejected the sacraments of the established church CofE. With no sacraments it became an individual act. It is at is base is Jesus and me. Through the Pilgrims were harsh on others who acted as individual like the Quakers who were whipped from town to town, had their noses and ears cut off for not following the correct theology.
In America it became popular in the 1830s.
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Thank you Tom, I didn’t know that.
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TOM I think you may have meant to say “Puritans” rather than “Pilgrims”. About 120 Pilgrims came over, about 10 died on the voyage and half what was left died that first winter so maybe only 60 left so really don’t have much clot. The things you describe come with the migration of 30,000 Puritans in the 1630’s to Massachusetts. The Puritans and descendant Congregationalists and Presbyterians recognize two sacraments: baptism and communion.
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Good sister, ye have not because ye ask not. You dont recieve because you ask amiss. Go into your room and shut the door and ask. Dont go to your local Saddusees temple and stare at fake pics of some clown and a blue eyed blond. Close your bedroom door and ask him.
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Bosco, why do you think I don’t know Him? Why do you think if there was on,y the way you talk about Jesus forgot to say so?
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No where in tradition either. I love how you keep hitting the “like” button on my posts although I’m not entirely certain if you’ve actually read them.
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Good sister, why do i think you arent born again? Because i dont hear the Shepherds voice in your speech.You dont know the same Jesus i know. hes the same with everyone. I run into saved people and we compare notes. they are always the same. I didnt know about philosophies and different Cyrils of Sryia and even much about scripture. But i was changed, in an instant. I saw the world for what it is. I was different. I knew the creator. It scared the bejesus out of my parents.
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Well, Bosco, I have tried your way many times, but nothing happens. I guess that means I am unsaved. I suppose I had best give it up and try the ways of this world and enjoy what I can here before the lake of fire? You seem to be guiding me away from Jesus.
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Im asking you and anyone to open the door to Him. Im sorry thats leads you away from him. .You need to find a christian based church gathering in your area …like the billboard says. See if there are calvary chapels in your town. Just a stretch. They have saved folks in them. Not all , but enough.
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But Bosco, I have tried them, and again, sorry, it simply does not work that way for me. Perhaps I am damned?
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Just saying the sinners prayer doesnt make one born again. One has to want Jesus to come in and sup with him. Try it, youll like it.
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thank you i do.
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Carl – I thought about typing Pilgrims slash Puritans but decided what the hey, Puritans were just people farther along the path from the church then the pilgrims, a new simpler purer form of their minds of what first century Christianity was. There are 38,000 different types of protestants, all correct, all sharing the essentials, all reading the bible with the help of the Holy Spirit, all becoming at the end St. Bosco saved.
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Sober up good brother Tom. How can prots have 38,000 different things they believe. There must be a supercomputerbase registry where the new religion has to search and find out If that belief is taken. If it is, they move on to the next concept. You must live in some kind of confinement. Christ and him crucified is all there is. How can one twist that? But im sure you and what ever cult you crawl to can find a way.
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you’ve responded to the wrong person again.
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OOps. Sorry. Im groggy from allergy pills.And i went to sleep at 3;30 last nite
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Huh? Bozo responded to the right person. Until he responded to me.
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Why am i Bozo. Im the great and all knowing Bosco the magnificent.
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Your username is “bozoboy87”. But that wasn’t why I called you “bozo”. Bozo – a rude, obnoxious, or annoying person (def. 2 – dictionary.com)
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Sure thing buddy. Now get back to your Tammuz. Shes waiting for you to bow down to her.Dont forget to bring your beads
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agreed
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I grew up as an evangelical Southern Baptist, and believed in “asking Jesus into your heart” until a number of years ago, when I realized that there is absolutely nothing in scripture to support that idea. The one verse that people tend to use, Revelation 3:20, is taken wildly out of context to support the idea that my heart has a door that only has a knob on the inside, and Jesus is knocking at my door, and I have to open it from the inside and invite him in. This is poppycock and drivel! If I am to believe what I was taught for decades by well-meaning Baptists, Jesus’s disciples were never “saved” because they never “invited Jesus into their hearts!” They never prayed a “sinner’s prayer.” Neither did the thief on the cross. I still consider myself a Baptist (mostly), but cringe anytime I hear anyone say the words, “Invite Jesus into your heart.”
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Jess, perhaps this article will help if you haven’t read it already. I would guess that Bosco might be a ‘type 3’ SBNR (Spiritual But Nor Religious).
http://thewandererpress.com/frontpage/spiritual-but-not-religious/
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Thank you dear friend, that is a really interesting article 🙂 x
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So we aren’t the only ones who are baffled by the Bosco’s of the world and are attempting to figure out where they are coming from. We are not alone. 🙂 xx
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But we are ‘unsaved’ apparently 🙂 xx
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Yes, sigh! On further reflection, I wonder if there are compound types made up of a mix of the 3 types that were mentioned in the article. I suppose there may be other variants as well. Bosco is a tough one to figure out. 🙂
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That article has been a real help with my second post, which will, DV, go up later, and will, I hope, deal with some of the points you raise. 🙂
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I will look for it then. It should be quite interesting. 🙂
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I don’t know that I can do it justice, but I can try to set up a discussion 🙂 xx
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It might, if Bosco is willing to engage instead of reciting his usual mantras. 🙂
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it will, I hope, prompt him to do so.
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Lets hope so. 🙂
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Many people consider Christian religion to be ‘just’ old dogmas and have found no experience in it and rejected it, while spirituality /spiritual journey remains appealing to them. I use these terms in appropriate situations to gain a hearing for the gospel where ‘religion’ (as they see it) has been dismissed. Once gaining a hearing by talking about experience of Christ or the Holy Spirit doctrine can be developed and explored and is then often considered seriously. However if there is no ‘immediate’ link to their reality the dogmas is irrelevant to them. This is applying ‘Transcendental Model’ See S: recent posts.
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i mention this, in my next post Rob, and would be very interested in your reaction 🙂 x
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Rob it really is a big problem in explaining this to those who think in terms of “just” old dogmas instead of recognizing that if you are setting out to build a spiritual edifice it might be helpful to call in some structural engineers and have their work double-checked by a building inspector. The engineers I speak of are the lives of the saints and the building inspector is the dogma of the church and together they make for a sound way to proceed. Otherwise we are looking at spiritual edifices being built of cardboard and unable to stand against the least evil wind that might blow their way. But many seem happy to remain in this circumstance these days and I think it has much to do with the posts from C and Geoffrey yesterday: lack of education and the ability to frame the topic in a meaningful way so that it might be thought about in a deep and serious way.
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I fully agree
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What would you call the woman at the well? Did she run back to town and wave a golden trinket around and put on a Babylonian fish hat? No. She told everyone to go and meet the Savior.
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. . . Who was there, incarnate to meet in the flesh. That is a bit different than now when all (AND I MEAN ALL) Christians seek Christ to be more a part of their life and to help them in their unbelief so that they may believe and live their lives more fully.
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Not in my Bible, Bosco. According to mine she told everyone to come see Jesus because he had told her everything she had ever done, and she asked ‘could this be the Messiah?’ That is a question, not a statement, surely?
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She met Jesus and believed he was the messiah. Was that story included in the bible for some kind of joke? She met the Lord….bottom line. Just because you cant see him dont mean hes not there.
Blessed are those who have not seen and believe.
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Precisely, Bosco. We believe that Jesus is the Christ and we have not seen. Though you think because you think you saw Him and Him that only those who have the same experience as you are ‘saved.’
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Well, if St Bosco is saved, then count me in the unsaved column. Reminds me of a joke (this for us older folks) Zsa Zsa Gabor dies and goes to Hell, where the Devil is the perfect gentleman. He talks pleasantly to her as they go to her where her cell is. He opens it and politely shows her inside, her roommate is Joseph Stalin. She says “What have ever done to deserve this.” The Devil says, ”No madam, Please, this is not your punishment, it is his.”
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ood brother, i didnt see him with my eyes. The new spirit he put in has seen him and knows him. No one goes up to heaven except he who came down from heaven
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Bosco I do not have a ‘cracker god’ as you call it but see communion as a remembrance of what it signifies
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Seems to me all souls have been made by God and that all people were made in His image and likeness and that He knew us from the beginning – so though all our origins are from Heaven as is the Mind of God, that you have got a new spirit that is from somewhere different than the rest of us. We only think that we have corrupted that which has been made by God and need to repent and receive His forgiveness so that we can be restored to that which God intended us to be.
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SF: Then what does the renewal of the Gift of the Holy Spirit that the world cannot receive mean?
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It means that each soul is ultimately responsible for submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, all people would have been saved after Christ’s atoning death and none of us would need be born into original sin these last 2000 years. But the dignity of the soul and of man is that fact that Christ died for our sins and perpetually beckons us to follow Him.
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SF: Have a think about the difference between the soul and the spirit of man – Hebrews tells us that the word of God divides between them – I consider man is tripartite body, soul and spirit having different attributes. There is an interesting text in relation to the Virgin Mary.
“My soul magnifies the Lord and spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour”.
Notice her spirit was ahead of her soul in time in this spiritual activity. As we Charismatics see it the spirit of man is dead in trespass and sin EPH 1. New birth is the regeneration of the human spirit being infused with the Spirit of God Jn. 3 and we become on in spirit with the Lord. Revelation and communion then is essentially received by the human spirit and the faculties of the soul are then enlightened.
Further ministrations of the Holy Spirit we see as for our strengthening, spiritual gifting and empowerment for service to Christ. In some of this at times we then pray with our spirit rather than our minds as an up-building exercise 1 Cor. 14
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However you want to try to understand it is fine with me Rob. What you do when you pray with your spirit sounds much like what we would call contemplation. We put ourselves in the presence of God and try to keep ourselves spiritually in His presence for as long as we can. It is not an easy task but it is fruitful.
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Yes good exercise – along with this we express the sense of His presence by speaking in tongues. Paul teaches that this edifies us in the spirit rather than the mind or initially in the mind. Sometimes I do this when I do not know how to pray and after a while the direction I should take in prayer seems to become clear or faith might be strengthened for the task. Sometimes engaged in prayer in this manner it is as if I sense the spirit within as a component of my make up apart from my mind which subsequently may become enlightened and directed in prayer.
As you say it may well be very similar to your contemplative prayer.
“I wish that you all spoke in tongues but even more that you would prophesy” 1 Cor. 14:5
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That last sentence is the key to me. I do hope that you have some about you who are trustworthy and have the gift of prophecy and understand that which you are speaking in tongues.
I adhere to the later thinking of St. Thomas and others that the need for speaking in tongues has passed as we have now the ability to express our ideas in a common language (in his day, Latin – as all the Church spoke Latin or had those who could translate the Latin into the vernacular). I distrust the practice but do not condemn it in any way as it can too easily become corrupted.
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SF Read 1 Corinthians 14 through carefully and you will see:-
14:2 & 6 that the primary purpose of speaking in tongues is not for communicating with each other or to the church but for speaking to God as no one understands. And this speaking is not from the mind of the one praying but from his spirit, speaking mysteries to God. The mind remains unfruitful 14:14 That seems very clear.
14:4 However despite the lack of mental understanding this spiritual exercise is spiritual up building (edifying) for the one in prayer. But this use of the gift is not for the church’s hearing it’s a private devotion. The Corinthians were not taking note of this and were miss using the gift in public with no interpretation 14:18-19 and Paul is correcting this.
14:28 Paul then instruct about the gifts personal use of the gift of tongues. He does not say do not pray this way if there is no interpretation but use the gift to speak to yourself and God.
Your understanding comes from the use of the gift at Pentecost and you assume it was for the purpose of communicating to a mixed language audience and that common language had done away with this need. But you have not understood the context of Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor. 14 when he explains that was not what went on in Acts 2. And that the purpose of the manifestation of the gift there was as a Sign to the unbelieving Jews of their judgment by God 14:21-23 Paul quotes Isaiah 28:11 you will need to carefully consider the OT context.
In Acts 2 they mocked the Apostles speaking in tongues, said they were drunk. Just as Paul says in Corinthians the unbelievers will think you are mad 14:23. So what sort of sign is it to unbelievers if when they hear it they think you mad or drunk – it’s a sign of judgment God speaks to them in other tongues ‘yet they do not believe’. The Isaiah context is of Israel being taken into captivity out of their position in God in the Promised Land; they are to be surrounded by foreign speech. Paul applies this context to an understanding of the ‘gift of tongues’ as it applies to unbelievers. Besides there was no need for these languages to communicate in Acts 2 peter addressed them all with the gospel – what those who understood the tongues heard was exclamations of praise of God’s mighty deeds. Acts 2:1.
However they did in Acts 2 understand in their various languages what was said and this infrequently takes place in the current use of tongues. A close friend of mine was praying to himself quietly in a meeting this was and the person next to him understood the language – he was speaking Chinese. The gift of interpretation of tongues is of course not a translation. The gift of interpretation is manifested for the situation and the gift of tongues should not be used publically in any other way.
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It has regained some popularity in this world lately though it fell out of use by most for many reasons. However, I think that what you see as the fruit of this is achieved in contemplation: interior infusion of knowledge and understanding. But one need not speak in tongues to receive them. As a say, if people insist on this type of prayer (and we have Catholics that do this as well) that is fine. It just doesn’t seem to warrant any attempt to put oneself in that state: to me it bears the same marks as automatic writing which has led to much misunderstanding and an entry into the occult. I find it far too dangerous for the average Christian and the benefits far less important than the converse evil that could be unleashed. You may be fine but there are others who may not gain the same benefits and may in fact find themselves at the very least as harboring spiritual pride for the gift that is bestowed. And that, I have seen manifest in some evangelicals personally.
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Of course the was miss use of the gift in the way the Corinthians seem to have prioritized it, probably due to its strangeness and it was the reason for Paul’s corrective writing. All spiritual development requires direction, as we see Paul doing here, as I’m sure you will agree.
Personally in nearly 50 years that I have practiced this gift and moved among those who do I have never found a single example of harm or a single person in whom it has been an occasion of pride. I have found numerous very enthusiastic people desiring to share and recommend their experience to others. I think you may be attributing pride to this but I obviously cannot speak for the people you have met.
Such an error could be made when speaking of those practicing contemplative prayer. Yes we have met Charismatic Catholics they are a very large group. It is estimated that about ¼ of all Christians in the world are Charismatic/Pentecostal the growth in this having been only in the last 100 years nothing less than phenomenal, which is welcomed by Pentecostal and Charismatic people as an evidence of the an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that will culminate in a great contribution to the completion of our mission and the end of the age.
I think you go somewhat too far when speaking of a gift of the Holy Spirit particularly one recognized by your own church and one about which we have the Apostolic recommendation “I wish you all spoke in tongues” 1 Cor. 14:5. Your view more resembles that of the onlookers at Pentecost or Paul’s word ‘they are drunk’ or ‘they are mad’ and concluding it best to keep away from this gift. SF: I do not mean to controversial or offensive toward you but if I do not say it as I see it I had best say nothing. Your view that it’s “far too dangerous for the average Christian” does not accord with the NT evidence of its manifestation by comparatively new and uninstructed converts Acts 10 and 19. The most dangerous comment you have made is to compare the a gift of the Holy Spirit with the demonic ability of automatic writing and in this way coming close to calling the holy diabolical. Out of concern I would caution those approaching this attitude without being dramatic about it.
Finally there is the matter of how the various gifts listed can inter relate and how the manifestation of the gift of tongues can initiate that of other gifts of revelation resulting in ministry to the needs of the church and others. Tongues is the most common gift among Pentecostals and Charismatics and far from being a cause of pride, this is because the gift seems to require the least faith and spiritual development to operate.
It is of course not a matter that is essential to salvation, so I think I have said enough for now on the matter.
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Perhaps these will help you with a Catholic perspective on Speaking in Tongues:
http://www.catholic.com/video/speaking-in-tongues
and
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm
I think it sums things up pretty well.
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SF: Thanks I will read the articles with interest. I have several book on the movement in the RCC written by Catholics and am aware of how those Catholic leaders view things. About a year ago we attended a Catholic church when a Charismatic priest was visiting. The experience was for the Catholics was new for most as there is only a small RC Charismatic contingent here in Barbados. My wife has met up with them.
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I HAVE REVIEWED THE VIDIO:
I have books by the authors mentioned.
The laying off of gifts of the Spirit in competition with Love (Charity) was unfortunate. It was to compare apples with oranges. He said love was the greatest gift in the context 1 Cor. Ch. 12 to 14 Love is not referred to as a gift. Love takes so much more spiritual development than a gift. The Charisms are of grace and may go along with a bad character e.g. Samson’s character was absolutely flawed but he had a charism from the Spirit.
Love is a ‘Fruit of the Spirit’ and like all fruit needs to be tended, grown, cultivated, nurtured, protected from pests. The point being made by Paul is not either gifts or Love but ensure that the motivation in use of any and all gift is love.
He then made the fatal error that denigrates a gift of the Spirit by referring to it as the ‘least’ of the gifts as it comes almost bottom in the list, as if anything from the hand of God should be spoken of as ‘least’. I suppose the Holy Spirit on that basis should somehow to be downgraded in His deity as He is always mentioned last also. Poor exegesis!
The general trend and aim in such an approach is always to down play these tool God has bestowed on the church – that is what they are gifts to the recipient but tool in their use. Each tool is unique and cannot be replaced with another – well you can drive screws with a hammer but the result is poor workmanship. So it is with each of these unique gifts of the spirit.
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Rob – Too many items to respond to in a reply box. Actually we have gone far adrift from the original post anyhow. Therefore, let me simply state that there are mountainous books which give great advice concerning charisms and extraordinary charisms – especially good in this regard would be Garrigou-Lagrange and St. John of the Cross. This link will be my final reply as it is about as short an answer that I think I could give but too long for a reply box. Please read the following: http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm
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Good brother Servus….man is born unsaved. Its called..”the natural man” This spirit was made here on earth and doesnt know god. By saying god knows us, there for we are good to go, goes against jesus own words. Oh, thats rite, the NT isnt for the unsaved. Well good brother, time to get saved, nest pas? harden not your heart. Today is the day of salvation. Go to a quiet place and ask him to reveal himself. The man in the Babylonian fish hat cant do it for you.
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You need to learn how to read Bosco. I believe in original sin which is the reason we needed a Savior. But we also believe that even when original sin is removed by Baptism, that the tendency toward sin remains and is why we need to pray, worship God, and to continually try to amend our lives. I also made it clear that each soul must do this on its own: that no one can do it for him. That is the cooperation with the Holy Spirit which was given us after the atoning death of Christ on the Cross. Its application to our souls is offered us in the Sacraments and it is up to us to acquire them in other ways as well. If you don’t recognize the Grace God gave the Church as an aid for all His followers you have really missed out on a lot help in this life in overcoming the world, the flesh and the devil.
By the way, where does scripture say that it was written for the saved and that nobody else could understand it? I know, you don’t toss pearls before swine. Just thought I’d ask.
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SF Paul i Corinthians 2:14 “the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised”
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Natural, meaning what Rob? To me it is that all men born to this earth are born in original sin and cannot understand the Spirit of God until that sin is removed. I don’t care if it is by water, fire, or desire – it needs to be removed. Then we are ‘born again,’ though we still are left with the appetites of fallen man and tendency for sin. So the process is a continual battle against the world, the flesh and the devil until our time is over.
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“Natural, meaning what Rob? To me it is that all men born to this earth …”
A man dead in trespass and sin Eph. 2:1- we differ a bit in how we consider all men have arrived at that point prior to regeneration.
“… are born in original sin and cannot understand the Spirit of God until that sin is removed.”
Have you looked at other views of original sin? The view you present was a novel idea introduction by Augustine the Orthodox understand it differently. I think they see it as a corruption of our nature (not total depravity as Calvin) – also I was watching the RCC TV channel and they definitely explained ‘original sin’ in this fashion rather than following Augustine’s error.
Augustine’s view is based only on Psalm 51:5 and the mistranslated of Romans 5:12.
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.” NASB or “Because everyone has sinned” Jerusalem Bible or “for that all have sinned KJV.
That is very clear corruption spread to all man BECAUSE ALL MEN HAVE SINNED.
Sadly Augustine translated it not ‘for that all sinned’ but he said ‘in whom all sinned’, which is just simply bad Greek. You can see why Augustine read it badly if you look at the Greek form but it just cannot be translated that way by anybody who knows any Greek. Therefore it is reckoned in ALL scholarly commentaries that it cannot mean “in whom all sinned”. But Augustine’s reading of the text set up an idea in Europe and in medieval theology and perpetrated on through the reformation that what Adam the one man did was to let sin and death into him which then passed ‘unto’ all men by their birth out of Adam in such a way that when you are born you are guilty BECAUSE YOU SINNED IN ADAM.
Augustine considered Adam’s sin to be passed through the sexual act which could not be performed without lust and that baptism removed the guilt of the sin. This led to the whole problem of the situation for babies who died un-baptized and the speculation about ‘limbo’ all avoided if we ditch Augustine’s errors and revert to the views of earlier teachers. You will have to do your own work on church Father’s views of Adam’s sin and the fall I’m just spouting what sources I consider reliable have to say.
Anslem considered original sin to be original to each person rather than a reference to the origin of the race; he understood the guilt and pollution to be passed from Father to child. That all were germinally present in Adam and so we all actually sinned in Adam. The weakness here (besides the miss translation of Romans 5:12) is if we are guilty of the original sin then why are we not guilty of all the sins of our ancestors.
“I don’t care if it is by water, fire, or desire – it needs to be removed.”
Well that’s my point and where I differ from Bosco I do not care so much about the water/fire interpretations if the desire there then the significance of baptism of water or martyrdom/fire is effective and where I see that desire evidenced I see a man in relationship with God and probably born of the Spirit. I say probably as there are those like Cornelius in Acts 10 or those at Ephesus in Acts 19:1-5 who are justified before God but have not received the fullness of the Gospel.
Yes: “the appetites of fallen man and tendency for sin” what calls ‘the flesh’ (not meaning the physical body) this tendency remains.
“So the process is a continual battle against the world, the flesh and the devil until our time is over.” Unfortunately yes – but the fight is the cause of our growth and the testing of our metal with a view to a future reward of more responsibility in eternal service.
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Rob. Maybe this will help and there are many others I could site if this is not sufficient enough to explain this topic in a Catholic sense. Catechism of Catholic Church:
405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin – an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
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SF: Yes the whole idea developing from Augustine’s error and terrible Greek. Paul was more straight forward Rom 12:5 “death spread to all men because all sinned.”
Now your version of why we all sin and incur immediately a spiritual death (in just the terms you describe it here) and secondly a physical death could be true but it is not a fact revealed anywhere in scripture, and other explanations have been supplied to account for our universal sinfulness and spiritual corruption.
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There may be other explanations but for the purposes of taking up arms in spiritual warfare they have no practical bearing. For me it is sufficient to know that I struggle against the same spiritual opponents that all men have fought with since Adam and Eve were evicted from the Garden of Eden. I know that I am fallen and have concupiscence that needs be resisted and I have virtues to be worked on with the Grace that God supplies me. We do our best and then we die and are judged on how well we lived this life with what we were given. In this regard the Augustine model works quite well now as it has for many hundreds of years.
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I hope it works better for you than Augustine’s model of ‘election’ which your church had the good sense not to swallow whole. 🙂
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The church tends to take the best of any teaching that proves worthy of belief and worthy to aid the soul in a certain fashion after the goal that is intended: the possession of God Alone. It rejects that which endangers the soul. One must trust in the valuable advice and aids that the Church provides for it certainly has produced a long list of people who have victorious in this life by following its teachings and a long list of failures of those who have failed to practice and embrace these same teachings. That is proof enough for me.
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The outcrop of Augustine’s teaching on original sin resulting in trauma for many mothers of deceased un-baptized babies excluded from heaven I do not think is among his better work.
Certainly for the parents of at least one Jewish baby in the mid 1800s were so traumatized. Their child was abducted by the church following its baptism by a maid who feared the child’s death all ultimately due to Augustine’s faulty dogma.
I hope you understand the motivation of my comments in the cause of good theology rather that attacks on any church. The problem is bad theology leads to the bad practice and Augustine’s worst work was in advocating compulsion leading to violence in Christianity by RC, Orthodox and Protestant alike.
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Thanks good brother Rob, for finding the bible quote. You know your bible. Good for you. Did you get that good brother Servus? The natural man cant understand the things of the spirit. Ive been saying this all along. One has to be born again to understand. Sorry pal.
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Thank you Jeff. That is how I feel, but I don’t want to offend anyone,
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Sorry Jess, did not mean for the last comment to start a thread beneath Jeff’s comment. Ooops. 🙂
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Not to worry 🙂 x
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Good brother Servus, ill answer your question about where the bible says the NT is for the saved maybe tonite when i get back. Now i have to close my eyes for a while. Im going to a chess tournament and im wacked out with allergy medicine. Ill probably lose every game.
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Rely on your new Spirit from Heaven which I’m sure is superior to any unsaved opponents that you face. You’ll do just fine. 🙂
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I was 4th place.
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Actually i came in third place. Im rusty.
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Just about any words will do, it’s the sincerity of what is meant that counts. If you will indulge me by bearing with another of my encounters:
Evangelizing one person I said becoming a Christian was like making a cake there are two ingredients ‘Repentance’ and ‘Faith’, a person might lack or refuse to supply one or the other. I knew from conversation that the man had been involved mildly in the occult and where I was going as the Holy Spirit led me. Paul tells us that the god of this world has blinded the eyes of those who do not believe in case the light of the gospel should shine in and they should be converted. I knew this man was particularly blinded due to his occult involvement and that until this was dealt with he would not be able to have faith.
I asked which he lacked ‘Repentance’ or ‘Faith’ (having laid out briefly the content of the Gospel). He said if he believed that Christ was who He said He was and had done what people say he did that he would repent become a Christian and follow Him.
So I asked which bit he did not believe, did he for a start off believe there was a God. Yes he believed there was a God. So I said well the situation is simple then because Jesus said if any man is willing to do the will of my Father he will know that my teaching is true.
So I told him to pray to the God he believed in and confess and ask forgiveness for his occult sins and then God would give him all the faith he needed. He confessed asking forgiveness and then began to visibly shake, I cannot remember whether I commanded the power binding him to release him, but I watched for a while. Then I thought now I will explain to him again who Christ is, what he accomplished for us and our need to commit to him. No sooner than I began he said you do not have to go over that I believe now. So I said well make your commitment, we waited nothing, I questioned he said “I don’t know what to say I have never prayed before today”.
I offered to frame a prayer which he could follow – Jesus come into my heart would have done fine but I would have expressed it in a more adult fashion for him. He said “no I’m not doing that I’ll do it myself”. So telling him he would just have to get on with it himself he hesitated and then said:–
“OK JESUS I BELIEVE ABOUT YOU NOW SO YOU HAD BETTER COME AND SORT ME OUT”.
Did the ‘sort me out words’ work as a liturgy NO! But the genuine willful response to get sorted out by Christ from a mature man did.
I had actually walked into my friends home while this man was there selling them an insurance policy his wife worked for us and had become a Christian and joined our church a week or so previously. My friends who were being sold the insurance policy (not members of our church) just watched all this go on. Then they told me that the Lord had told them when the salesman arrived that he was going to be converted that evening. They were not a couple ‘up to evangelism’ but when I walked in they knew they had heard accurately from the Lord. Then they said but the Lord also told us that he would be filled with the Holy Spirit tonight as well as committing himself to Christ.
I laid my hands on him saying receive the Holy Spirit and he immediately began speaking in tongues.
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That is so inspiring, Rob – thank you for sharing it 🙂
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I would have to write a book to answer this nonsense version that is usually falsely attributed to what evangelicals understand by being born again.
Becoming a Christian is a spiritual reality. Many can locate the exact time circumstances and manner of an initial experience in which they made their initial commitment to Christ and many just know they have arrived at that commitment but could not say when they first became aware they had arrived.
This regenerated state is described in many ways and we learn more about it as we consider them all.
Just a few phrases for example: “He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with the Lord”, a ‘renewing of the Holy Spirit’, in many places as a current possession of eternal life, a passing from death to life, a translation from one kingdom into another or ‘having Christ’ and being born again is equated with receiving Christ.
If I have to get a ‘pat prayer’ right to then we have a weird idea of God. God reads the heart and not the words although the words of a simple prayer may or may not express a genuine commitment of the will to the Lord.
Therefore even a one word prayer is ample “maranatha” or “Jesus come into my heart” or “Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom” or “come and sort me out”. The issue is not in the expression of whatever words or even no words that are being verbalized, the issue is has the individual establish a covenant with Christ as his Saviour and Lord – just as the thief on the cross did.
The word LORD when used today of Christ Jesus may be thought as no more than a title or part of His name. But a LORD, master or king was seen differently by that thief in his day. For the thief to put himself into Christ hands with those few words and never a sacrament in sight meant that all the above was transacted. He ‘had Christ’, he ‘passed from death to life’, he was ‘born again’ etc.
The sort of comments here about simple prayers that may be used are naive in the extreme and those making such comments need to grow up and get over it as much as those sticking to some sort of immature prayer format when dealing with anyone over 5 years old. I was 10 years old when I made my covenant with Christ I can’t remember the prayer the commitment 58 years later has never changed.
A lover speaks of holding the loved one in his/her heart loving with the whole heart, we know what it means often we know when it’s true. I dare to say Bosco is not far wrong in that we can usually sense one another’s love for Christ in this way. Bosco’s problem I might suggests, may be that he is looking on the outward and excluding many due to doctrinal disagreement rather than ‘knowing people after the spirit’ as Paul recommends.
If the “Jesus come into my heart” cannot be understood and interpreted by some ‘clever clogs’ here I despair of such pernickety attitudes. It achieves nothing but dissention whereas to encourage others to unwrap what they mean and express it in cultural and age appropriate forms would be very constructive.
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I think the point here is to do with those who say they are saved and others aren’t – that seems a quite sterile place for the others. 🙂 Jess
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Yes there are probably still too many going about determining that many of the saved are unsaved. A friend of mine a Baptist minister severed a term heading up the Welsh Baptist Union he’s a fairly remarkable evangelists and pastor. One day returning from a funeral wearing his dog collar (not his usual Baptist practice) he was accosted by a rabid evangelical jumping in his path and declaring loudly “Religious but not Saved!” I my friend taught him a few more lessons and went on his way.
Revelation 3:20 is used out of context when used in evangelism to engender conversion I would hope all of us evangelicals know that. However something used out of context need not necessarily be non applicable to conversion to Christ. I often use this text to help people coming to faith. I always explain the implications of Jesus offering to ‘eat with us’. It was the means of the Jews sealing a covenant as formerly we would just shake hands and today sign a contract.
In the door knocking Jesus is offering a covenant and requiring a personal response. Now there’s a lot to unwrap in that and the bits appropriate need to be considered with each person. Joshua 9:11-18 gives an infesting event Israel is tricked into a covenant by eating a meal and from then on cannot break it. I remember one of my most moving encounters with an international businessman he was close to death with a brain tumor and had come to a friend for healing prayer. After they prayed I explained the contract that Jesus had on offer for him. He prayed with me and committed himself to Christ. His said however long I live I will treasure this contract.
Of course the meal that Jesus has in view is the communion meal and we know the cost of that meal to our Lord. I’m concerned that we do not need to be attacking one another about the way we seek to introduce others to Christ. Recently from a number of sources I have encountered this going on and naive generalizations and ridicule of evangelicals.
The point I was making was that to either trivialize, or to be tied to any sort of prayer or act of commitment makes the same error. God sees the heart it’s not about the words of vow that we make but about its sincerity.
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I am sure that is right Rob 🙂 x
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Jesus meal is the communion meal? Youre joking , rite? A stale little cracker?
Youre god gives you that. Mine prepares a banquet.
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Mine gives me himself now Bosco.
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Hello good sister. Ive been out of town in san gabriel/alhambra. Some bozos lit a campfire and burned down the hillside town. I was chocked with smoke. Its still burning as i left there last nite. I could see it as i drove past. Spooky looking at nite.
Your god gives you himself? Why dont you believe my report? Why do you wonder what born again is?
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That souns terrible, Bosco. I hope no one was hurt?
I do believe you Bosco, but what I don’t understand is why you advise us to do something which is unscriptural? Jesus comes to us in the way best for us, so we shouldn’t judge others because their experience O’s different from our own.
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Bosco, maybe we don’t believe you because you seem to have made Christ in your own image and not the other way around. 🙂
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What image of Christ have i put forth that you think is wrong , my good brother?
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Good sister, listen up. Jesus says….”Behold i stand at the door and knock. If anyone hear and open the door, i will come in and sup with him and he with me.”
Since when did you care if something was unscriptural? Its funny to see the cathols in here blast be for being unscriptural. Everything they do from the time they crawl into their Roman temple till the time they stumble out is unscriptural. thats why the CC adds the claim that its tradition. Yes my child, bow befor Tammuz, i mean Mary, because its tradition. Sure god says not to, but tradition is better. Dont you believe me? Im wearing a fish hat.
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The point I was making Bosco is that you were doing what you criticise others for doing; as the Bible itself never says it is a manual for being saved, that is actually OK. Do look up C’s post on Dagon Fish hats, he will put you right on some of the odd things you say.
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Indeed I can remember the stirrings in my heart to come to Christ and I can remember the time where I finally made a commitment to Him and it was a moment of pure grace. However, what I did not do, was proclaim that ‘it is finished’ or that this is the end of my ‘journey.’ In fact, I was faced with the almost insurmountable peak staring me in the face that needed to be climbed. I knew that I could not do this but that Christ could help me: by the working of His Spirit in my soul and by the helps He has given us in His church. Therefore, the first thing on my list was to get ‘right’ with the church and to make sure that I proceed toward the top one step at a time with all the helps He has left to us. Not surprising that this was the vision in my minds eye for the book I was reading when this moment arrived was “the Ascent of Mt. Carmel” by St. John of the Cross. And to this day, I cannot see anything that is a more apt image of this pilgrimage with God here on earth. It is a long hard climb and requires effort: ours and His – though mine is supplied by Him in a mysterious fashion.
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I do not think any minister would encourage the thought that conversion/new birth marked the end and completion of one’s spiritual advancement. Where we differ I suspect is in the assurance of the salvation received and this would take quite a lot of discussion to unravel, perhaps we should take it up some time and explore the different views.
However an interesting point is that the vast majority of evangelicals worldwide do not believe in ‘once saved always saved’ as its put or the Calvinistic doctrine of ‘the perseverance of the saints’ both of which are different views on guaranteed salvation for all the ‘born again’.
Further in practical terms I think it is rather theoretical (though important), I mean to say I do not think many who have held to a secure view of their salvation feel very secure if they have fallen away and lost their faith. Personally I have always felt secure in my salvation and this has assisted my spiritual growth. I quite see that for some ‘eternal security’ might make some lax in there discipleship. While for others of tender conscience the thought of the possibility of the loss of salvation could be a lifelong terror. Pastorally this area is an interesting field.
And further still in the discipleship process it’s not a ‘get out of hell card’ that we are selling but a love response of surrender in full trust to our Lord. So I think in this respect we end up working towards the same end.
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Indeed Rob. The constant message we can take from the Saints is that we are either ascending or descending. There is no such thing as standing still in the Spiritual Life. I attest to that from the lives of many Saints and by personal experience. When you stop striving, you begin to descend or fall. That is why, if we are wise, we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling for the prospect of falling is quite real if we take our eye from the goal for even a minute. There are many dangers and stumbling stones on our paths up that mount.
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Thank God we are assured while we are working out our Salvation God is working in us – if it were not so we could debate our theology forever for no good purpose.
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A very true statement, Rob.
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All this is speculation since we haven’t heard from St. Bisto.
“A lover speaks of holding the loved one in his/her heart loving with the whole heart, we know what it means often we know when it’s true.”
Speak for yourself, I have no idea what the speaker means. I know what it means when I know that love is what you are prepared to give up for the other person.
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David said: “I know what it means when I know that love is what you are prepared to give up for the other person”
So you can often tell when love is true!
As Christ said ‘by their fruit you will know them’ and you are you are identifying some of that Holy Spirit fruit in what you say here – I fully agree!
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“For the thief to put himself into Christ hands with those few words and never a sacrament in sight meant that all the above was transacted.”
Just a few reflections on the thief:
In a way, the thief made a perfect Act of Contrition, and was given Absolution by Christ. He accepted that he was a sinner and transformed this civil punishment for his crimes into a penance for his sins – willingly and willfully. By such, his recognition and desire to remembered by Christ was a Baptism of ‘desire’ and of ‘blood.’ And just like Peter who was told by the Father that Jesus was the Christ, the thief got the same message delivered to his heart. The other sacrament that was present to the thief was the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God (a spotless lamb without blemish) being offered up for his sins. So one might say that the Sacraments of Penance, Baptism and Eucharist (the Sacrifice of our Lord) were present in a sense to the thief: in a rudimentary form though not in a formalized sense.
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Again no one can argue or would want to with what you say here yes ‘a baptism of desire’ we both agree it’s a primarily a heart matter. His words acknowledging he was justly punished and unlike the other not responding ‘if you are the Christ get us down’ shows a real acceptance of where he stood.
Presumably you would then conversely agree that a person baptized but then having in future life no desire for what his baptism signified or a rejection of it would gain nothing from the application of the sacrament in itself. Or have I got that wrong from your perspective.
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Yes, you have it wrong. For I believe and many saints have attested that infant baptism may be the sole reason for returning to the faith after a fall. The mysteriousness and suddenness of my turn from unbelief to belief has no better explanation than this to me. So, it is not a matter of fact that might be pointed to, it is a matter of belief and a pattern I have seen with many others who have fallen away after their Baptisms and return, anxious to make amends for their lives.
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I would argue very strongly that that is so – just from my own experience – I attribute the Grace I have to that baptism which has worked its effect on me, and to which I owe the spiritual growth, such as it is, that I have.
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Very much so. In my work with those who I worked with in RCIA I would venture a guess that almost all of those who make the commitment to return to Christ had previously been Baptized. And conversely, those who did not go the full journey back into the Church, most had never been Baptized. Is that just a coincidence? I think not.
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Interesting but difficult to analyze as other factors come into play such as the upbringing of those baptized as opposed to those never baptized.
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As I say they could all be due to something else rationally. But to me, the Grace given a soul at Baptism, is only awaiting the loosening of the bonds that the soul, itself, imposed on its Baptismal Grace. Once loosed, the Spirit swiftly goes to work once again and with more vigor than before.
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I did not put my question very well there. My point referred to someone baptized as an infant or as an adult believer and subsequently and finally departing from the faith and willfully rejecting the Lord.
I suppose we agree that in such a case their baptism would not save them. Which makes the point that it is the heart commitment to all that their baptism signifies that secures its effectiveness from the human standpoint.
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We are agreed as we both believe, I take it, that a soul must willingly, under no duress, cooperate with the Grace that God gives the soul. That being said, the Grace is still there in the soul, only that the soul has rejected this Grace (putting it in chains so to speak) and God will not force us to use His Grace.
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In a way, the thief made a perfect Act of Contrition, and was given Absolution by Christ.
What is absolution?
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Being absolved of sin: in a word, forgiveness.
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The thief didnt say a sinners prayer. He asked Jesus to remember him. The thief didnt stare at a golden Baal sun trinket with a stale cracker in it. He asked Jesus himself to remember him. Its just that simple. The religious want to make a big deal out of it and put add ons and saints and costumes and long winded speeches and philosophies into it. Since they dont know god, they philosophize about him. The good news is, hes at the door and knocks. All one has to do is let him in.
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Of course you have to be you, Bosco. We wouldn’t know who you were if you didn’t come up with your typical tripe such as: “The thief didnt stare at a golden Baal sun trinket with a stale cracker in it.”
You speak of the monstrance, I assume, that expresses to the eye, what only the soul can truly see: the presence of our Lord and God in the species of bread – just as He performed this miracle at the Last Supper. And of course, He asked the apostles to “do this in remembrance of me.” Something you do not do and you have no remembrance other than your conjectured internal encounter with someone or something. At least ours is tradition that goes back to the earliest Church and to the Apostles. You blaspheme and yet, you don’t know it. May God forgive you, friend.
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The babyolonian symbol of Baal is the sun with the rays coming out.There was a face in it. Is this not true? The religion of Nimrod took on a new name…the Catholic Church. Its holymen wear the same costumes, perform the same magic acts on stage, have the same graven images, so forth and so on. They even have Tammuz images that they renames Mary with baby Jesus. Good news is, Jesus will take you as you are.
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Well you and Jack Chick would be the experts in the religion of Baal. For me, my religion is the one that Christ died for and He might even take some blasphemers such as yourself as long as you stay this ignorant. After all Christ’s words reflect well on your salvation: “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Let’s hope that will be applicable.
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Bosco, look back at C’s post on Dagon fish-hats for some accurate info here 🙂 x
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You statement is very deficient in facts Bosco. The ceremonies and practices of the Church are not based upon pagan worship as you profess, Tradition is from God, Who alone is due all glory and worship and has through His Church given us the proper means to worship. Where did you get the facts that you like to shove in the faces of Catholic believers???
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The Thief on the cross was promised he would this day/night be in paradise, since Christ did not ascent to his Father for 40 days, but preached to those spirits in prison, so Paradise is not Heaven, it is not with the Father. I would think it is purgatory. The sermon on the mount said that your deeds shall follow you (to the judgement).
Bosco The Lord says where two or more is gathered in my name…who is the second person in you congregation, you seem to be a one man band.
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I am of the same mind concerning the thief and purgatory, Tom.
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Thief on the cross etc,
Tom your interpretation is rather stretched and it can only be supported by where you position the punctuation and as there was no punctuation in NT Greek that leaves the text rather open to consideration, it could be as follows:
I say unto you today; “You will be in paradise with me”.
Nothing is simple I’m afraid.
Point we all agree is we all wish to have the same assurance from Christ at our death and hope it is not a false assurance.
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Good sister, i dont know where good brother Cs post on fish hats is. maybe a link will hepl me. And if hes justifying it, well, its a free country. He has to stick up for it. he cant admit he follows the cult of Nimrod. Even though the CC has all the symbols of that Babylonian cult. But jesus will take you as you are. Thats the good news.
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Here it is Bosco
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/dagon-fish-hats-and-other-nonsense/
Xx Jess
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The thief on the cross.
Today you will be with me in paradise. he was with Jesus in paradise when he died. Dont try to rationalize god to human understanding. The cathols think Jesus sent him to the fires of purgatory. Jesus said paradise, not fire. Anyway, there is no purgatory. People are saying im not scriptural. Whats up with that? They get up from berfor a graven image of Tammuz, dust themselves off and lambast me for being unscriptural.
Noticew on the good pic at the top that good sister joyfully put on? It says look for a christian church. It doesnt recommend somewhere to go. they trust the holy spirit to guide you to one. Now theres the voice of the Shepherd. It didnt say…go to the nearest Roman temple and fight your way thru the graven images.
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rob – I am familiar with the second comma question and the Greek, I accept the Catholic church on the Baptism of desire or of blood, The Thief jeered at Christ and then repented, since the Romans were surprised that Christ had died so swiftly, so that tells me the Thief suffered longer then Christ, until his legs were broken, if his was a baptism of desire or blood, then his sufferings can be considered works. . The Church believes that purgatory does not necessary contain time, Christ and the Father is the creator of time not its master. If the thief was with Christ in as Dante plays in Hades, then the Thief had the Gospel preached to him and to those in prison and he can freely accept or deny as all the others. God the Father and Christ is the creator of time not its servant. I AM who I AM is a statement about time.
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Tom: I do not think any Christian that understands what you mean disbelieves baptism of desire or blood and I do not take a Lutheran position on works or Justification.
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I have no problem with the “invitation” word. Clearly we are invited to God’s embrace through Jesus and by accepting we are in a sense joyfully inviting the Holy Spirit into our hearts. By this conversion we are subordinating our will to the will of God. The Jews kept the Old Covenant by adherence to the Law. The New Covenant of Christians is a kind of partnership wherein God makes the offer through Christ and we reply to the offer by asking for and receiving the Holy Spirit which is now a contract or New Covenant.
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my heart has a door that only has a knob on the inside, and Jesus is knocking at my door, and I have to open it from the inside and invite him in. This is poppycock and drivel!
Spoken like a true catholic
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>>>>>Spoken like a true catholic
Most Christians are “little c” catholics. Only a few elect individuals (as in approximately 30% of the 2 billion professing Christians in the world) are “big C” Catholics. (Sorry Fr. Kimel, there is no way you can convince me that the Eastern Orthodox nationalists are “catholics” in any genuine sense of the word.) (Sorry Jess, but there is no way you can convince me that only the English can be considered “catholics” in any sense of the word.)
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I wouldn’t want, in any way, to say that only the English can be Catholics, any more than I would want to say that they Orthodox are not Catholics. Is the OCA really ‘nationalist’? What nationality? 🙂 Jess x
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It might just be the Russian Orthodox. Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn was very bad. Russia=Christian nation in a state of communism?!? Seriously?!?
The Russian Orthodox are probably the most xenophobic Eastern Orthodox Church in existence. Tolstoy had numerous issues with this nationalism and was why he was excommunicated. Dostoyevsky argued against the Catholic Church as being “too socialistic”.
Xenophobic, the Eastern Orthodox (especially the Russian Orthodox) really haven’t convinced me that this claim against them isn’t true. Nationalistic, especially the Russian Orthodox. Maybe if an Eastern Orthodox synod got together and pronounced the Russians as heretics it would be better.
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This may be true of some, but the OCA is not nationalist, surely?
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It can be. I hope to write about this though don’t know when. Maybe next year. But even Eastern Orthodox theologians would agree this is a big problem with the Church.
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Well, I believe that ‘phyletism’ is an official heresy 🙂
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Maybe for those outside of their nationalities. The way that Dostoyevsky describes the Russian Orthodox in his book, The Brothers Karamazov, is that of an institution embracing in phyletism. I do think they are making better strides to refute this error from their pulpits.
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I would hope so 🙂
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Sinners prayer is nice. But one can ask Jesus to come in using their own words. For heavens sake people, Jesus is a man. You can talk to him. Tell him what you want. And no, hes not a stale cracker in a Baal sun symbol.
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Do you think he is just a man, Bosco?
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In heaven, he is still in human form as he was when taken up. And that is how he will be when he comes back down. But the next time he comes, it wont be as the Lamb of God. It will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
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Yes, I agree, but he is God as well as human 🙂
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Without Jesus, there was nothing made that is made. The same was with the Father in the beginning.
I and my Father are one.
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As they are with the Spirit 🙂 x
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In answer to the question posed to me….”where in the bible does it say to ask Jesus to show himself”….im not going to tell you.
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How Christian of you, Bosco. Only you found it and you don’t want to share this great find with the rest of us. Now that is what I call brotherly love, Bosco style.
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I wont cast my pearls befor swine. A bad habit of mine.
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Well, I thought that would be your response. After all, everyone but your little cult are swines in your mind. No sense for us swine to dialogue with you – as you seem to by the type that dialogue does no good: e.g. see Jessica’s latest post.
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Im am under orders by the high command not to cast my pearls befor swine. i dont call holymen Father either. And i dont do vain repetitions of prayers either, ….orders of the high command.
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No, you like to do vain repetitions of blasphemies instead. Your high command seems more like the prince of the world to me.
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John 14:13 And whatever ye shall ask in my name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name I will do it.
John 14: 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14: 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
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That, Bosco, dear, is because as we both know, it isn’t there, and you, having criticised Catholics for doing what is not in the Bible, are doing the same 🙂 x
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Good sister, its all thru the NT. But the bad news is, the NT is not understandable to the unsaved. Its a letter to the born again. Sorry i cant help you. But the mater stands at your door. Ask him in and he will take the blinders off your eyes.
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Bosco, don’t tell fibs, you know that when Catholics say that sort of thing, you ask for the verse. It is not there because Jesus did not say it. That does not mean he does not reveal Himself to each of us as is best for us, but it also does not mean it is the only way.
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Sadly, St. Bisto just repeats the nonsense he’s spouted before about those he believes aren’t saved, especially Catholics. He refuses to explain himself except to repeat his mantra.
It’s time to move on.
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Boscow,
Mater means “mother”. So the “mother” as in “Mother of God” “stands at [Jess’s] door”. So you admit that Catholic and Eastern Orthodox (and high church Protestants such as Lutherans and Anglicans as well as a growing number of Evangelical Protestants) profession of Mary as “Mother of God” isn’t Nimrodian after all? We’re finally getting somewhere!
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Come on, that was a typo. It was supposed to be master.
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Bosco – Well, knowing if I am saved is above my pay-grade and the truth I do not care much about it, I do not know and I don’t care. What you think as being saved could only be heartburn from an extra special pizza. When we meet at the gate, we can compare tickets and see if yours was stamped saved or not.
P.S. I am a cracker person, Thanks be to God.
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Tom as you know Jesus said if you ask for bread your Father will not give you a stone – I’m not much bothered if you bread in ‘cracker variety’ as long as you are approaching the Father in sincerity what you get is ‘bread’; which is what I assume of all Christians unless proved otherwise by a life with no works of faith.
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Good brother David, what i say is what Jesus said. Its not surprising you call it nonsense. if i talked about cotume sadducees and golden cups and graven images , you would accept me and join with me. but i come in the name of the I AM., The invisible god and im nonsense.
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St. Bosco, I found a song that is screaming your name right now because it is 100% written about you!
You should also look up the lyrics because it describes you perfectly. Now, “Awake…”.
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I would have to look up the words cause i cant understand one word. But, i used to do stuff like that in my rock band. Pantera stuff, but mine was more civilized.
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Heretic twice over!
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I bet you wanna burn me at the stake , Mr. Catholic Man
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Right now, yes. But…

And an advisable rule of them to follow…
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ePICA… KINDA COOL MUSIC, BUT IT GOES NOWHERE. No form. But i kinda like it for 2 mins. Then it becomes boring.
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