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The response to my questions about the Catholic claims has been interesting, and I am only sorry Struans is on his holidays and therefore unable to contribute. It seems to me, as I said in response to a comment from Fr Aidan Kimmel, that I’d like to know more about how the Orthodox organise themselves. I’ve a suspicion, but no more than that, that the old stereotype about the Orthodox being organised around ethnic lines is no longer as true as it was when I was a lad. When I was at University there was one (now very famous) Don who was Orthodox, but I don’t recall that there was much of an Orthodox presence, and though I recall going to an event in London, it was very ‘ethnic’ – full of White Russians I recall, all of whom regarded Communism as the work of the Devil and hoped that Barry Goldwater was going to win the American election (that dates it, and me). I went along to a lecture by an Anglican priests who was a member of a society named, if I recall aright, after St Sergius, which was putting forward the idea that the Anglican Church was effectively the English version of Orthodoxy, and as I remember it, the actual orthodox folk there were far from convinced, but it left me with the indelible impression that although there was no way of accessing it then, Orthodoxy was not only a viable alternative, in terms of Apostolicity, to Roman Catholicism, but closer to the way the early Church had operated; indeed, in so far as it seemed to consist of a church around its bishop, it was actually close to what the Baptists did in so far as they were in communion with each other, but did not attempt to say that one bishop (or in our case elder) had authority over another. I’d be interested to hear more from any Orthodox readers Jessica may have.
I say this because what shines through the responses is that whatever an official line might be, under the banner of ‘unity’, even in the Roman Catholic Church (and I put it that way not to offend Roman Catholics, but so as not to offend those who also lay claim to the ‘catholic’ label) there is more choice than one might imagine. I can see that the traditionalists might lament the old Latin Mass, but I do wonder whether they have ever read the revised Missals from the 1950s, which really were not terribly good; the idea that the decline began with Vatican II is good polemic but bad history. So, whilst one might (and I would) say that it is not sensible to campaign for women priests, I can see why the ACTA brigade might do so and argue that once upon a time all the reforms of Vatican II were opposed in the name of an unchaging tradition which has changed, so why not this? I can see, as I say, the arguments for why not this one, but equally, why ACTA might pursue it. To themselves they look like courageous and farsighted folk, to the traditionalists they look like a right shower of fifth-columnists in need of a wall and a firing squad; yet both groups are within the Catholic Church – although the way in which some of them write about each other might make a chap wonder.
Human nature, fallen as it is, is what it is, and even when being regenerated through Grace, I am afraid it does not seem to incline folk calling themselves Christians to all face in the same direction. In some shape, size and form, choice is something all churches have to deal with – the question, I suppose, is how?
I suppose that Vatican II is a watershed moment for the Church and it raised a lot of eyebrows not only by the inclusion of non-Catholic observers (or as some say advisors outside of the proceedings themselves) but also by the influence wielded by the likes of Edward Schillebeeckx, Karl Rahner and his protege, Hans Kung. These were like ‘red flags’ to traditional Catholics while to the liberals they were like a ‘red cape’ of a matador to a mad bull which (like ACTA) continues to charge headlong into madness.
It only makes clear to my mind the influence that bad theology can have in the short term and that unfortunately good theology has little impact except in the long term. It also confirms my suspicion that in the Church, theologians, scripture scholars and liturgists have rightfully earned the same status as politicians, lawyers and used car salesmen in the secular world. Not that each of these have many good practitioners; only that the bad ones have an immediate effect on our lives in a negative sense while the good ones leave a legacy to built upon in the future. To me that is battle that now ensues: we are fighting against the immediate consequence of some very poor theology, bible scholarship and liturgical changes that are ‘on the mend’ but will probably take a long time to overcome.
My question to you, Geoffrey, is what in the 1950’s missals did you find ‘not so good?’
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I have a small collection left to me by an old friend and was surprised to find that Latin was not used throughout? I’d thought that was VII.
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Are you sure you weren’t looking at the translation on one side of the page and the Latin text on the other? There is of course the Kyrie’s that are Greek as well.
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No, that’s what surprised me. I don’t know the provenance though.
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I’d have to see it to understand what it is that you’re looking at, as Latin has been the language of the Mass for hundreds of years and is still the Editio Typica even today; though you would hardly know that by what you experience in most parishes.
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Indeed, and it was that which surprised me.
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There have always been indults given to certain groups or countries to say the Mass in another language. They are still direct translations of the original Latin. Perhaps you have a text from a certain Religious Order that had permission to do so. ❓
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As they came from an old friend who was a Religious, that is the probable explanation.
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I thought it might be. 🙂
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His order did a lot of work in the north of England, so I don’t know if that had anything to do with it. It is only some of the prayers, and the Gloria and Creed.
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That is really quite probably the reason then. You want to teach those being evangelized to say the Creed and Gloria and Our Father etc. in their own native tongue. If they evangelized much, that would be a very understandable reason.
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Yes, that all makes sense. They did much work with the poorest in society, who would have had no education to speak of.
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Indeed, if they couldn’t read Latin, even with the English translation alongside, might not be suitable. Best that they hear it in their own tongue.
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Sales, you may enjoy my post: August 28, 2012, How I Got Barry Goldwater’s Autograph-carldagostino.wordpress.com
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I shall take a look Carl.
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This Eastern Catholic Catechumen is offended by your choice of the terminology “Roman Catholic”. Are Eastern Catholics somehow “sub-Catholic” to the Roman Catholics they share full, 100% communion with? NO! So call it the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church are those who are in full, 100% communion with the Pope of Rome.
Everyone else can be rendered as “little c” catholics.
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I have never heard of what you speak of. The Latin Church as always considered the Eastern Church as Catholic, one of two lungs, precise in holding onto the Liturgy given to them by their fathers. I hear more charges against the Latin church then the Latin Church against the Eastern. Do the Eastern Churches have grievous wounds yes, but they do not let them heal. The Russian Orthodox which I am most familiar with, wishes strongly to go their own way. If they wish to reconnected in a serious way with the Bishop of Rome, I have not seen it or heard of it. The Orthodox make it hard on themselves, for their own reasons, that have zero to do with the Latin church. I can see why they see a threat to the liturgy from the west, but after almost a thousand years, give it a break.
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Considering that it was Geoffrey who wrote this post (who is, I think, Evangelical Protestant), I see no reason for your protest to my comment.
I would say though that more Roman Catholics should know about the Eastern Catholic Churches as well so they can also easily correct this misconception that the Catholic Church is somehow limited in scope to just the Roman Rite.
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Newenglandsun,
I don’t know if you are aware of the pedigree of the term ‘Roman Catholic’. it was coined by senior Anglican reformation clerics keen to shore up their reputation and legitimacy as a pejorative term along with Papist. This was done in order to differentiate themselves and their novel claim to an early Christian Church in England that was supposedly independent of the Pope, dating back approx to the time when the Romans left, and the Church that had been understood from its inception as the Catholic Church. Life is too short to spend it refuting this nonsense but Bishop Fisher and others did a good Job, before they were executed.
Anyway for better or worse, with use it has gained general acceptance but it does not reflect the true nature and scope of Catholic Christians or the Catholic Church. We have I think around 20 or so rites in communion with the Pope in the Catholic Church, unlike the Protestant schism, all professing the same belief and holding the same doctrine. It would be more correct to use the term Latin Rite Catholics when referring to those of us in the west and yourselves as Eastern rite, but, I don’t suppose this will gain general acceptance in the Uk or USA, the term Roman Catholics still has an element of scorn about it.
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I was aware of that. I hate it and I make certain Protestants carry an accurate view of the Catholic Church. Every time I hear my Protestant friends speak of “Roman Catholic Church”, I tell them, “What about Eastern Catholics?” and then command them to call us the Catholic Church.
The United States it’s no surprise but the Anglicans like N.T. Wright who use “Romans” to slander the Church will definitely have some apologies to set themselves up for.
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newenglandsun – I re-read your comment and I understand and agree with you, of course just Catholic is correct. The rites in the tent called Catholic is large and should not be covered under Ahhh Roman, or as I think of it as Latin. The correct term is of course Catholic
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oh but then Jess and Struans would be offended 🙂
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Ah, but that’s okay 😀 😉
And to them… 😛
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And there’s more of them 🙂
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:O
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newenglandsun, me thinks you doth protest too much. You know as well as I do that the Orthodox Church believes that the name “Catholic Church” belongs to herself and only to herself. So I guess you “Catholics” will have to find a new name. 😉
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LOL 😉 You always make me smile!
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Of course, we could just change to being the Orthodox Church as well. 😀
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A friend who attends his Catholic Mass most every day recently returned from St. Petersberg in Russia. When he knelt for communion upon seeing his Roman Catholic necklace the priest uttered an echoing “NYET” and he was escorted out of the church in a much less than civil manner. Seems not everyone is into this “tent” thing.
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In both Churches there is no intercommunion as both believe it is the end point of unity and not a means to it.
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I would respectfully disagree, it is Roman Catholic Cannon to allow an Orthodox Christian to partake of communion. It is Orthodox cannon that we can not partake of any communion outside of the Church.
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I did not know that – many thanks for the correction.
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“The response to my questions about the Catholic claims has been interesting, and I am only sorry Struans is on his holidays and therefore unable to contribute.”
Thank you Geoffrey for your kind words. I am back now, and wish to contribute when I have time as to the matter of catholicity. However, it seems that there might have been some burn-out on the issue whilst I have been away with all of the Bosco related postings.
I am a member of the Fellowship of St Alban & St Sergius. They have an excellent magazine. I have always been an Anglican leaning towards Constantinople, rather than Rome.
S.
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Thank you Struans. I must say that I have often felt a pull in that direction, but never to Rome. GRSS
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