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This is by way of an initial response to Strauns’ interesting series, and I’d echo his comments in his final post about not shouting loudly as though the other person isn’t too bright. On the whole, this place is excellent at not shouting at each other, and has created an environment where we can discuss what divides us without forgetting what unites us.
My initial thought is that one reason that discussions turn away from mutual illumination into recrimination is a form of fear: a fear, sometimes voiced, that the other person does not really believe in the Christian God in the way we do; and a fear, usually unvoiced, that what they say challenges our own presuppositions and beliefs in a way which makes us uncomfortable. There’s a third, contextual response, which comes from our membership of a particular Christian community, and which can make the argument degenerate still further; if we feel that our ‘tribe’ is under attack, as loyal members of it we join in the defence.
So, it would be easy to respond to Strauns’ posts as Bosco has by mocking the idea of theology. This seems based on the fact that as he’s had a particular revelation, so what’s the point? That suggests to me he hasn’t actually read either what Jess wrote on Saturday, or what Struans has been writing since then. I could react to that by saying he’s being myopic and a bit selfish, and the modern way would be to say that if that’s what he wants to be, who am I to judge? If, as he appears to believe, the only way of access to God is via a private revelation, then he’d no doubt be right, but as the history of the Johannine community suggests, even before death of St John, that way of running a church had collapsed. There were folk, as we can see from the Johannine epistles, who said that their revelation was not the same as John’s, and insisted they were right; this seems to have broken up that church, as it does to so many charismatic churches.
The context here is one of intense personal belief. It is a version of the fifth of Strauns’ models – but without the concern for community or others. It is centred solely on the self and effectively says, as Bosco often does, ask God to show himself to you and he will. Well, here’s a confession, I first did that at age 10, and I did it for thirty years, before realising that He already was, but not in the way I wanted. If Bosco is speaking only to those who have had his experience, he is talking to himself; this is not what the Apostles did, neither is it the way they evangelised. So, I wonder here whether the real context is not one of an intensely individualistic culture centred on solipsism in which all that matters is an experience which one cannot communicate to others and which in actuality leaves oneself as the only saved person in the village? In short, it is not talking about God, it is talking about oneself. That is not so much a model of how to do theology, as how not to do it.
I shall return, in the next post, to looking at some of what Struans says, but recent exchanges with Bosco remind me of the dangers of going just from one’s own personal experience. If others can’t relate to it, and if it simply allows you to criticise everyone else, it is egoloy – talk about the ego, and not talk about God.
Carl D'Agostino said:
It seems much is contextual and makes cultures see the same differently of same faith maybe not in terms of ego. In a geographic sense I would offer the North Americans, Africans, Asians and European people have a different take on what being Christian means regardless of denomination. Do you agree? Or other demographics may include men or women, young or old, rural or urban or 3rd Century vs 16th Century vs 21st Century.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Yes, I do Carl. It is one of the things I think C has raised too, which is the inadequacy of the notion that there is a ‘European’ theology.
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NEO said:
I wonder if in some ways we don’t all (or at least me) conflate to a point theology with marketing (or as I should say evangelizing). There is (or should be) a difference in how we talk with our co-religionists and how we present to outsiders or even neophytes. It would be quite easy to totally drive off someone looking for God with our technicalities. Not a major point but one we should keep in mind.
In many ways it’s an old story for us in technology, nobody really wants to know how things work, they want to know what it will do for them.
Not that I know, marketing (or lack thereof) is why I’m not rich. 🙂
The major point contained is that this is the faith of Christ and him crucified, if we go too far beyond that, in the beginning, with new folk, we’ll hurt ourselves.
And that is the real problem with ‘the Bosco model’. It leaves all the work with God himself thus obviating the Great Commission. Without a reason to do so, few are going to ask Jesus in to supper.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Good points Neo. The question of how we talk to others, non-Christians especially, is a moot point. I think some of Strauns’ methods would work better here than others, but yes, the one thing which won’t is that Bosco method – which appears to be keep asking God. And what if you don’t get an answer? Assume you are doomed?
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NEO said:
I do as well, and it’s a very interesting series. Of course, we do know that we always get an answer-If “No” counts. So, yeah, I guess that’s what we would have to assume. Which is another weakness in the method.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
That’s certainly one big concern 🙂
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NEO said:
Sure is 🙂
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St Bosco said:
Yes, we leave all the work to Christ.
The lord is my Shepherd, i shall not want.
What does a Shepard do? He tends to the flock. Every meal they eat is from him. He defends them from wolves.
All we like sheep have gone astray.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Bosco, you’ve never met a shepherd, have you? If you think a shepherd feeds the sheep, you need to find out what sheep eat.
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St Bosco said:
He leadeth me to green pastures.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Aye, but he doesn’t feed them – the Good Lord does!
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St Bosco said:
My Shepherd is the good Lord.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
As is mine, Bosco.
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newenglandsun said:
I must say, I saw his comments on the one about banishing the devil in the Anglican church and I thought he (Bosco) was just playing Devil’s advocate. Hard to take a clown seriously though.
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St Bosco said:
How serious can you take a Bozo in a Fish Hat?
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newenglandsun said:
Um…it’s called a mitre. And he isn’t always wearing it. And they do this in a lot of High Church settings whether Anglican, Episcopal, Eastern Orthodox, Western or Eastern Catholic.
And under the Ottoman Empire, the dude in the “fish hat” was always taken seriously under pain of death for committing treason against the Sultan!
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St Bosco said:
It dosent bother you that its a Babylonian Dagon pagan priest hat? It dosent bother you that it shows they are fulfilling Revs account of Mystery Babylon? Mystery Babylon is alive. Nimrods religion is still here. Just as the scriptures say.
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newenglandsun said:
Um…how does it fulfill Revelation’s prophecy? Do the people who wear it embrace it because of paganism? No. So why should it matter if the Babylonians used it? Should we just trash Plato’s work because he erred in some of his views? If we were to just trash other people and what they said because they *slightly* differed from us, we’d get no where. The Babylonian priest hat is simply just evidence that the Church is suited to cultural customs. That’s how it’s always been. More-so with the Catholics than any other Church. We have Jesuits, Capuchins, Franciscans, Dominicans, and Benedictines in our monastic orders. We are made up of different liturgical traditions as well (Maronite, Byzantine, Coptic, Chaldean, Roman).
Evidence of mystery Babylon and Nimrod’s religion or evidence of cultural adaptations? I think the evidence leans toward the latter, not the primer.
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St Bosco said:
+Good brother New, at least you admit its Babylonian Dagon fish hats. Some in here, the brave souls who will even touch the subject, say it is coincidence that the hats are exactly the same. Next, if you may, explain all the other Babylonian symbols used by the CC. Like the symbol of Baal, the sun symbol used as gods golden cage. The pine cone of Baccus, which is on the Popes staff. The Eqyptian seeing eye, which is all over the CC. The halo, which is Roman pagan in origin. Diana, Mary. Mary and child…Tammuz. The CC always calls everything a mystery. Mystery along with all the traping of babylonian Dagon cult. Mystery Babylon
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newenglandsun said:
How about I just link you to this wonderful article by Grace Communion International showing you that Protestants can’t even *agree* on what Catholic doctrines/symbols are pagan or not.
http://www.gci.org/church/holidays/pagans
I feel it will answer most, if not all, of your objections to Catholic teachings.
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St Bosco said:
Ok, i read the article.Who ever wrote that doesnt know Christ. One can wish anything they want into the cornfield.So you wave a magic wand and now Babylon pagan religion is now Christs religion. Well, catholics have to say things like that. They wont admit they are in a satanic cult of personality. What about all the great claims the CC made about its self? What they say about themselfs must be true. Ye shall know them by their great swelling claims. Oh, forget what they do. All that matters is what they say.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
But that wasn’t from a Catholic source, Bosco.
Your religion seems to be anti-Catholicism. Try Christianity sometime soon.
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newenglandsun said:
How about their follow-up article?
http://www.gci.org/church/holidays/pagans
Also, I should point out that GCI came from a background within Protestantism that taught that virtually everyone other than themselves were pagan. The Armstrongite background.
http://www.gci.org/aboutus/history
This isn’t a Catholic website that I showed you, it’s a mainline accepted Evangelical denomination that used to think very well that Catholics took all of their ideas straight from Babylon.
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St Bosco said:
Yes, i noted that it wasnt catholic. Who ever it was, wasnt saved. Most people arent saved. Most sites arent written by saved people. i dont know of any site by the born again, besides my heavenly site.
Cherrybombcoutour.blogspot.com/
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Well, he does like to play Devil’s Advocate.
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St Bosco said:
“the one thing which won’t is that Bosco method – which appears to be keep asking God. And what if you don’t get an answer? Assume you are doomed?”
Thats the best question ever asked here or anywhere. If asking god for anything doesnt work, why do you pray, if you pray? Why do you bother going to church in your sunday best? Most of you have been praying befor i was born. So prayer is not the Bosco method. Jesus said that ye have not because ye ask not. And ye have not because ye ask amiss. Dont you think he knows whats in your heart? If one has no real desire to be born again, chancces are you wont get born again. I can tell you for sure i didnt care to be born again, but i believed what this girl was telling me cause i heard it all my life in sunday school, but no one put it that way befor. I dont even think she was saved when i look back on it but she had been given pep talks by someone in her org. It was meant for me. Good brother Paul had no intentions on spreading the good of the risen Jesus. People here speak of a personal revelation. Paul didnt have a revelation, he ran smack dab into Jesus. In short, he met him face to face. He wasnt born again rite there and then, but it was close. When the good brothers prayed for good brother Paul, the scales where lifted from good brother Pauls eyes, and the good brother was born again at that moment. The scales need to come off of your eyes my friends. Sometimes Jesus takes you. The rest of the time one has to ask, but one must really want it. The religious in here call me my own Pope, and make fun of me. They dont think a personal relationship is real or necessary. Their religion has taught them that. If these people die unsaved because they followed their leaders, their blood will be on the hands of their leaders.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
This is interesting.
So, you seem to be saying that it is those who don’t ask, like you and Paul, who get the revelation. So why advise us to ask then?
I don’t see folk saying a personal relationship doesn’t matter. I do see them saying that if you are going to talk about God to anyone, you need more than to advise them to ask, whilst quoting as examples folk who didn’t.
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St Bosco said:
I did ask Jesus to come into my life, as the girl asked me to do. Good brother Paul,im sure, was asking Jesus to save him. When the guys prayed for good brother Paul, im sure they told him to recieve Jesus or something. The ones who ask amiss harden their hearts. They dont believe in the saving power of the cross. They believe in golden trinkets and graven images and cute pics of a blue eyed blond they call Mary. They want men in costumes and fish hats to bring god to them. They have been told that they need these things and these costumes to bring them salvation, and they must renew it once a week because it wears off.
Good brother Jeff, today is the day of salvation. Harden not your heart.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
But you told us you’d not been looking before that. Paul certainly wasn’t looking. I received Jesus as my Saviour more than 60 years ago Bosco, and I don’t need statues – or to accuse those who do of idolatry.
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St Bosco said:
Thats rite good brother. I went to that music festival looking to meet a girl, not get saved.
If you are born again, how come you dont believe my report? How come you defend idolatry?
The saved know the shepherds voice. i can hear the shepherds voice in other people who know him also. Its a perk, if you will.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
I do not disbelieve you Bosco; I leave disbelieving other people to you. I try to carry on my small part of the great commission, that is to help spread His word. Now I haven’t found it helpful, in this, to tell folk that if they just ask in the right way God will talk to them directly. He talks to us in different ways, each as we need. So if we expect everyone to have what Paul got, we’ll not be good messengers.
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St Bosco said:
Sorry good brother Jeff, but you havent asked one person in here to ask Jesus to come into their life. Your commission as you call it is abject failure.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
As I am out every Saturday doing that, I think perhaps not.
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St Bosco said:
I understand you have a street ministry. May i ask what do you tell people? Thanks in advance. You know, people can get saved despite you. The Lords words dont come back void.And why dont you witness in here? And why dont you believe my report?
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
We invite them to talk to us about Jesus, who he is, and why they should want him in their lives. We offer them a New Testament and invite them to talk further at our chapel the next day. Works well. Here, Bosco, we discuss things, and that’s my point. I don’t say your witness is not true, I say it attracts no one and repels many.
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St Bosco said:
Gods speed to your ministry.
Im not here tospeak gentily. These people get that in their church services.
Oh generation of Vipers, who hath warned you of the wrath to come
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Tom McEwen said:
If by the Devil’s Advocate, you mean he speaks for the Devil as his lawyer, I would agree with you.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
I do wish he’d be a bit more reasonable – as he has some good things to say, and then ruins it.
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newenglandsun said:
St. Bosco said:
“The religious in here call me my own Pope, and make fun of me. They dont think a personal relationship is real or necessary. Their religion has taught them that. If these people die unsaved because they followed their leaders, their blood will be on the hands of their leaders.”
St. Augustine of Hippo said:
“And the end set before him is to draw near to God. And so, when one who has this intelligent self-love is commanded to love his neighbor as himself, what else is enjoined than that he shall do all in his power to commend to him the love of God? This is the worship of God, this is true religion, this right piety, this the service due to God only.” (City of God, 10.3)
Religion=relationship with God. This “It’s not religion, it’s a relationship!” confuses definitions of the word religion. Sociologists talk about an institution when they refer to religion, philosophers generally define religion as a drawing near to God, historians tend to define a religion as a social group of those maintaining the key doctrinal or unifying principles.
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Struans said:
An interesting and reflective post Geoffrey. Thank you for being complimentary about me recent series – I must say that I had rather imagined your lack of “likes” of my recent series to be equivalent to a furrowing of the eyebrows.
As I have mentioned, I am going to stop commenting soon on this blog for a while as I have 1001 things to do, but if my notes have been cause for some new areas for discussion, that will gladden me no end.
All best wishes,
S.
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St Bosco said:
What does god say at judgment?
Oh no. You missed mass acouple of times. No heaven for you.
Oh gosh, yo took the wafer in the wrong hand. No heaven for you.
Oh no. You werent a member of that catholic church. Good bye.
Hes says…i never knew you.
And if Christ did have a religion, it wouldnt be that snake pit where greedy dogs kill each other to become Pope, and then tell the faithful its a unbroken chain from Peter. Or some murderous adulterer puts his bastard son in the office of Pope and tells the faithful its a direct succession from Peter.Hahahahahaha. To this day catholics repeat that sad lie that there is some unbroken line from poor old good brother Peter. Does purchasing the office of Pope count as succession? Does selling it to the highest bidder count as well?
Great swelling claims
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newenglandsun said:
Wow. You are sadly misinformed.
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St Bosco said:
Why dont you tell me what i got wrong good brother New. Thanks in advance.
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newenglandsun said:
There were three things.
“Oh no. You missed mass acouple of times. No heaven for you.”
False. Depends on the circumstance. Also, I’m not a Roman Catholic. I’m an Eastern Catholic Catechumen. We call it liturgy but even that slip up isn’t going to be having you miss out on heaven.
“Oh gosh, yo took the wafer in the wrong hand. No heaven for you.”
As an Eastern Catholic Catechumen in the Greek-Slavonic (Ruthenian) tradition (hence, Byzantine Rite), we use bread chunks, not wafers. I highly doubt taking the wafer in the wrong hand gets you kicked out of Heaven.
“Oh no. You werent a member of that catholic church. Good bye.”
This last one is simply an egregious mis-reading of the Catholic Catechism, which, any simple reading of the CCC paragraphs 838-856 indicate and dispel your argument entirely that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved.
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St Bosco said:
None of it is worth the paper its on. I just put out some examples of how ritual ridden this religion is. And yes, little kiddies in the Cc are told that to miss a mass is mortal sin. May their fire be hotter for doing this to the little ones. For they take their little ones and make them two fold the child of hell as themselfs.
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newenglandsun said:
No…little kiddies are not told that about missing mass or liturgy more properly.
I don’t know where you get your information from. Babelfish?
Missing liturgy on purpose and intentionally is indeed a mortal sin since God is supposed to be first. You and the Catholic both agree on this.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
So, Bosco, do tell us, across nearly 2000 years, who would Christ use? He uses you – are yoou sinless and spotless and pure? He uses me, and I’m not. What does St John tell us about folk who say they aren’t sinners?
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St Bosco said:
Good brother Jeff, who in here said they were sinless? Thanks in advance.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
You seemed down in the Catholics because they were sinners – so are we all. Perhaps we should try treating them as God treats us?
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St Bosco said:
Find just one time when i called someone a sinner.Here , ill give you one….Hey you all are sinners. All means me too. I have never simply called some a sinner or am down on them because of that. The sin playing feild is level. We are all sinners. Are you drinking again good brother jeff? Cause your charges against me sound like you are dreaming or something. Sleepwalking if you may.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
Look back at your comments – you seem to be criticising the Catholics for being sinners.
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St Bosco said:
Ah ha. You have been with Glenfidditch. Im not down on them for being sinners. We are hborn sinners. Im down on them for not packing up and leaving that cult of the graven image. Im down on them for not seeing it for what it is, even though they have heard my speech from other people. Im not the first person to warn them. They have no excuse. The more the clergy are exposed for rampant vice, the more these catholic faithful love it. They keep feeding it with money and their flesh, and the flesh of their children.
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Geoffrey RS Sales said:
So, because some clergy are sinners, they should leave that church? Apply that to all churches and no one would join any. Has it occurred to you that not all do bad things? I remain unconvinced anyone worships statues.
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St Bosco said:
GOOD OBSERVATION. I dont recommend any religion
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Tom McEwen said:
Since religion must be necessary for Jesus’ promise to be there where there are those gathered in my name. The Latin religare means “to bind fast; to moor”; ligare on its own means “to bind, tie, fasten; since you are a one man band St. Bosco there is no other you bind, tie, fasten too for Jesus to be there among you, more then one. And I must agree you are The One Bosco in theology, belief, and gnostic knowledge, Hidden knowledge I will give you Bosco. You give Me and Jesus a new meaning.
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newenglandsun said:
If there was a “like” button, I’d hit it on your response to St. Bosco. 😀
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