Today’s newspapers reported, in various tones, that the Church of England was getting rid of the Devil. This referred to the C of E suggesting that references to the Devil and ‘sin’ might be removed from the baptismal service. I shan’t link to the typically over-reaction from the Daily Mail as it will only encourage them. Anyone disturbed by the Mail’s reaction obviously doesn’t read it; its main contribution to our public discourse is to coarsen it. But I was not very happy with the reaction of some Anglicans. The commentator, Vicky Beeching tweeted:
Crazy to fuss about liturgy that is simply being trialled & is unofficial. Modernising language is crucial & so experimenting is important.
Yes, clearly calling those who disagree with you ‘crazy’ is a helpful contribution to helping matters along. Quite why she imagines that the general public are any more familiar with the word ‘evil’ (which might be substituted for ‘sin’) who knows; when I’ve asked folk, many of them are just as puzzled. She may have to end up with ‘being naughty’, which I think folk do get. The limits of experimentation need ‘pushing’ methinks.
I don’t know who does the C of E’s ‘media relations’ but to judge from this they are more at home with the evasive language of modern politicians. It fails to address the not unreasonable fear that anything which is trendy is going to get through a Synod which seems obsessed with appearing to be ‘modern’, and it signally fails to address queries about what it means by the ‘Devil’ and ‘sin’. The statement appears not to recognise why believers might be concerned by the proposed wording, and instead offers, in the first paragraph, a reassurance which cannot but provoke further concern. It isn’t true, it says, that there’s been no change for 400 years – in fact there have been three changes in the last 30 years. Ah, how reassuring – not.
So, for the best part of four hundred years, the C of E was happy with the Book of Common Prayer and the one baptismal formula; but in 30 years it has changed the latter thrice; goodness knows how many ‘alternative’ versions of the Prayer Book it has offered. Clearly, in these exciting modern times things need to move on a pace, whereas in the dull old past, they didn’t. Yes, that dull old past when a lot of folk went to church, as opposed to the modern and exciting church where they don’t.
Clearly anyone who is concerned about the past is ‘crazy’. Let us all hold hands together and allow folk to be godparents who reject ‘evil’ but don’t believe in God. Makes sense to someone, perhaps someone who is a bit embarrassed by old-fashioned beliefs about the Devil and sin. Let’s get folk in by being inclusive – and whilst we’re at it, can’t someone do something about that crucifixion thing – it doesn’t half put folk off.
Let us not try to explain to a population which is, we are told, better educated than any previous generation, concepts which their grandparents understood well enough. Let us change the language. But what we say expresses what we believe and if we believe in the devil and in sin, why not explain that? Perhaps because some folk don’t? Why not just say it and shame the Devil?
We have large churches over here who are more and more abstaining from words like “sin” in their sermons. I am very disturbed about this. If we remove sin from the equation, we don’t need Jesus, then, do we? And if we don’t need Jesus, why bother going to church?
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This, Jeff, is how I feel. Even redefining ‘sin’ as ‘evil’ seems to me to miss the point. Sin is falling short of what God wants from us, it is not necessarily the same as doing ‘evil’ – not that ‘evil’ is a concept many modern people accept either.
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I have agreed with advocates of contextual understandings(within the basic framework of tradition and scripture) but this is Hollywood political (left wing) correct which is actually re-authoring scripture and intent. Yes the words of Jesus have impact and may be disturbing and unsettling to some. Well that is exactly what it is meant to be.
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With you entirely Carl. I accept what the C of E is saying, that this is a consultation, but all the more reason to support those inside the C of E who think as we do.
I am disturbed at the mind-set the desire for change appears to reveal.
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GS: I saw the same article in the DT in which I commented that if we take the Sacrament of Baptism and remove not only “Original Sin” but all sin then there is no longer a Sacrament. Then they become the same as most other Protestant sects. “We’re in that spin lov’in that Old Black Magic called Bale.”
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Aye, it is as you say, David.
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Hahahahahah. I love it.Thats religions for you. Enjoy.
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I think baptism is not merely for the child beyond original sin. It seems it is a sacrament for the parents as they declare before the congregation, Jesus and God that they intend to raise the child in faith. An adult is making the same affirmation for himself/herself.
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What do the parents get and God parents?
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They get to repeat the baptismal vows made by others on their behalf.
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I should have made it clearer. Since it is a Sacrament for the child, the removal of Original Sin and being Baptized in Christ. What, if any, part of the Sacrament to the parents and God parents get as implied by Carl. I can’t think of anything except the responsibility of rearing the child in the Faith.
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Indeed, Carl – and quite what folk who aren’t Christians are doing being ‘God’ parents, God alone knows.
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Good point. Strictly prohibited by the RCC.
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So am I to understand that the C of E Baptism which is rather similar to the RCC Rite of Baptism no longer requires a vow to reject Satan and to renounce evil? The time honored practice of these vows seems to be the logical entry point into any Christian sect. In fact, we RCC’s considered it a minor form of exorcism, as well a vow made before God. I guess the slippery slope that has been entered upon is starting to get slipperier than ever. I can only imagine what might be next.
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At the moment we are told it is ‘only a proposal’ and has to be ‘agreed by synod’ – as though the record of such ‘proposals’ and of ‘synod’ provided some protection for orthodoxy 🙂
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I was going to say; isn’t that how women in the priesthood and women bishops began? Maybe they are having a race with the US Episcopal Church as to which one can self-destruct before the other. Though the US Episcopal Church does have an advantage; in that the Anglicans are late comers to the spectacle of morphing into something their grandparents would not recognize.
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Yes, it is, and it is how the contraception thing began too. The record is clear – suggest something in the ‘spirit of the age’ and eventually synod will say ‘yes’.
It allows the apologists to accuse us of exaggeration, and then, when we are proved right, they say it was the will of the democracy – I am sure God counts votes.
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Perhaps that should be the new method of running churches, replete with campaigns, polls and a final vote of the people.
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The C of E doesnt want to be upstaged by the CC. I think it was the ex zyclone B salesman Johnpaul that said….”The smoke of Satan has entered the catholic church”. Rite. As if just now the Devil has enterd it. Catholics lap that stuff up…. Oh no, the devil is trying to get into our pure and white holy one true church. yeah rite.
Now, the sister of the CC is chasing the Devil out of the house. Im sure the anglicans lap that up too. Everyone likes to think their religion has power over the Devil. Thats what religion is for. To take care of your soul. To dish god out to you. ” Come and get it while its hot”. Step rite up and and get your weeks woth of salvation, but you have to come back next sunday and get it renewed. Missing mass is a mortal sin, kiddies.
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No, that was Paul VI. I think you’ll find JP spent time avoiding the Nazis and the Commies.
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I understand Johnpaul worked for IG Farbin or someone, selling zyclone B to purchase agents for german contractors or such. Theres a chance he didnt know what they were using it for. Plus, everyone tried not to draw attention from the idiot Nazis.
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That seems unlikely Bosco – the Nazis weren’t fond of Poles.
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John Paul II 1978- 2005 “In the early 1940`s, the I.G. Farben Chemical Company employed a Polish salesman who sold cyanide to the Nazis for use in Auschwitz. The same salesman also worked as a chemist in the manufacture of the poison gas. This same cyanide gas along with Zyklon B and malathion was used to exterminate millions of Jews and other groups. Their bodies were then burned to ashes in the ovens. After the war the salesman, fearing for his life, joined the Catholic Church and was ordained a priest in 1946. One of his closest friends was Dr. Wolf Szmuness, the mastermind behind the Nov./78 to Oct./79 and March/80 to Oct./81 experimental hepatitis B vaccine trials conducted by the Center for Disease Control in New York, San Francisco and four other American cities that loosed the plague of AIDS upon the American people. The salesman was ordained Poland`s youngest bishop in 1958. After a 30-day reign his predecessor was assassinated and our ex-cyanide gas salesman assumed the papacy as POPE JOHN PAUL II.” -William Cooper, BEHOLD A PALE HORSE, (Light Technology Publishing, 1991), pp.89-90.
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Do a lot more checking before believing everything you see on the internet.
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Whats wrong with that reference?
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This is what is wrong:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_William_Cooper
TRhe guy’s a nutcase Bosco – and that’s what’s wrong so much of what you post – you seem to think that anything published, even if it has no sources, is reliable. Real historians have worked on JP and found nothing like this. You simply look like a consiracy nut Bosco.
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Paul VI was killed by the jesuits. Even die hard catholics admit that. Now they have a operative in the chair of Jupiter, i mean peter.
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Sin is not the same as evil. On the other hand, is not there some form of approximate equivalence – for a baptismal candidate’s level of education – of turning against sin and turning against evil.
I don’t see the big fuss really. It’s only being trialled, after all. The ABCs website has just put up a statement on the affair too.
Do baptismal candidates at present undergo some form of theological test as to their understandings? I don’t think so.
I wonder, can we have another picture? It’s so melodramatic Geoffrey. I rather like the Episcopal Church.
S.
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In any event, the C of E isn’t in any way banishing the devil or sin.
This issue seems to be a flash in the pan of form over substance. No doubt the usual types of RCs will furrow their eyebrows and say that inter-acceptance of baptism is now in danger due to those dreadful Anglicans. Are they Christian any more? Etc… etc…
S.
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The idolatrous RCs have no business pointing their boney fingers at anyone.
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Bosco – you have still to show us that those RCs who bow to statues are worshipping the statues. Just a reminder.
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As Cranmer, who is more sympathetic to the C of E than I am, says in todays blog, emendation is necessary.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/
I really am unsure whether some Anglicans believe in the Devil or in sin.
GRSS
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Let me assure you that pretty much 100% of the Anglicans I know do. Albeit that they might hold a variety of more metaphorical to more literal views of the Devil. Sin though is quite clear what it is. The matter is one of pedagogy I think – a subject which could take a whole series of posts as it relates to the faith.
S.
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Sin, as you say, isn’t evil, so suggesting asking folk to reject evil isn’t the same as asking them to reject sin and the Devil.
Still, I gather rom Cranmer that it isn’t necessary to believe in God to be a Godparent, so in that context, I’d suppose anything to be possible.
GRSS
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-E tu good brother Jeff? Now youre jubping on the worship bandwagon. You can read, i assume. I never insist anyone in here worshi0s the graven image its self. I know they dont. Will people stop saying i accuse them of worshiping the image.
Heres what i always say; God told us not to make images for religious purposes.
He said not to bow befor the works of your hands. Bow means bow, physically bowing.Doesnt matter what youre thinking. Some justify it by saying bow means to worsip it as a god, and they arent far off. Too bad. God didnt put in any caveats. He didnt say its Ok if.
God said not to server them. Here catholics quiet up when i remind them of that. Cause they put clothes and jewelry on them and burn incense in front of them, and they carry them on their shoulders in solemn procession.
I mean its in black and white, and its written in stone. The point is…. beware of a religion that does these things and takes pleasure in those that do such things. Its wickedness.
Why does the CC do so many things the bible says not to do? Why arent people leaving it in droves.?
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Bosco, it is obvious that the commandment forbids worshipping; bowing in the ancient world was usually an act of worship. This is not very hard to understand, is it? If you really believe in a God who sends folk to hell when they worship him but bow, then we’ll have to say we believe in different Gods. Mine is super intelligent.
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I see Strauns. Surely you are not suggesting that in this era of universal education, when 40%+ go to University, folk are less capable than their grandparents of understanding things like the Devil and sin?
I take account of what you say – that it is being trialled, and needs the approval of synod. If you could point us to any modernising proposal which, once trialled, has not got through Synod (even if it has need to be resummoned for that express purpose) it would discourage the pessimism of those of us who see, yet again, the thin end of the wedge.
After all, if the current situation os fine, why change it. For some of us, Struans, that picture sums up all that is wrong with the Episcopal Church.
GRSS
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Perhaps I will just say this:
Communication is more than words. Apparently 70% is body language (or active) of the delivery, 20% in the tone of the words used, and 10% in the content. Or something like that, I have read.
The ritual communicates far more than the form of words used. The news today / yesterday is full of comment on this matter anyway.
Thin end of the wedge? Not really – do you aim for a pure church, or a populated church? I think it better to welcome people in and see if sinners can be reformed therein. Much better than educating people from the outside.
I think I’ll leave this one here for now – as it ties into the subject of contextual theology quite well. Perhaps discussion might continue after my series of posts is complete.
Glad to see you back – I was wondering where you’d been. No doubt away for the weekend.
S.
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Aye, we were down in Kent with my eldest and the grandson.
I am getting old, I know, but communication is what it always was, I don’t think we’ve evolved a new breed of person, though we may have a new brred of parson. Cranmer’s comments and those of the Bishop of Willesden seem apposite, and suggest that my concerns are shared.
GRSS
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The problem is that chasing the popular vote, so to speak, is not working, attendance is demonstrably falling, both in the Anglican and Catholic Churches year on year. Christian baptism is valid if the intention is correct and the right form of words is used, “I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]” and water is used. Even a non-Christian can perform the service, done correctly Baptism itself is an exorcism.
However I would not discount the chipping away of the idea of sin, after all if we don’t recognise sin we cannot be sinners, if we are not sinners then what do we need salvation from? Then church services become an extension of the feel good about yourself, you dense edit generation.
What I find puzzling is what is this supposed to fix? What I’d the problem that needs experimenting on? after all no one carries out experiments unless they have some idea of what they are trying to find out and achieve.
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With reference to your first para: Indeed.
And at least from what I’m seeing in the US, most of the gains in membership are being seen in the more ‘conservative’ parts of the major religions. i would say this is because the people are becoming aware that most of the churches have become a social club, not about heaven and hell, except perhaps in a tertiary manner.
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I blame my iPad, it made sense when I wrote it! Bloody Apple….
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I hear that, you should see the incoherent stuff my tablet thinks I said.
You make a valuable point though.
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This might be worth listening to:- http://affirming-liberalism.org.uk/2009/06/08/why-liberal-churches-are-growing/
It seems that religion is one area where the UK leads the US in terms of a time-lag. Usually it’s the other way around. When church-going is no longer thought of as normal – as it seems to be becoming in your younger generation, then the UK experience now might be something worth looking at. i.e. models for new church growth.
S.
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