Geoffrey is right to say that Rome’s position has created problems, and that there is a tension between political power and our faith. Jesus gave us wise advice about rendering certain things to Caesar, but, by the nature of these things, Caesar’s demands tend towards the insatiable. It was for this very reason that successive Popes created a Papal State which would give them some protection; we can see from other examples what the alternatives were. With the Church of the East it turned into something close to extermination; with Constantinople it turned into something like a theocracy, but with the Emperor in the driving seat; and in Rome it turned into a Renaissance State needing to defend its own – with all the things that brought with it. Different people will have different opinions as to which of these was most desirable; few will think any of them a model; but in the real world a fourth and better one has not evolved. Indeed, as the State in the Wet begins to withdraw from supporting Christianity, it may be that even the one most criticised by Protestants will come to look desirable.
In the world in which the Christian has to exist, polities will make demands on him or her, and the nature of the modern state tends towards totalitarianism in as far as it enshrines into its law those standards it wishes to support. Because it has been a long and difficult fight for the British State to get agreement to ‘gay marriage’, it will proceed more cautiously on other matters; but in the end it will insist that all citizens signs up to those laws the State enacts; no exceptions. Yes, for now there are, but for now we live in the afterglow of a time when the Church of England was really the State Church and really had some countervailing influence to secular values. That time is passing, and a generation or so from now, the Catholic Church, and any other Church which does not ‘recognise’ ‘gay marriage’ will have been sued into accepting it in some way. But even that will not satisfy the legal zealots; my advice to the young is that if they wish to get rich, get into this area of the law: a bonanza is coming.
The ways of God are not of this world, and His message to mankind not one it wishes to hear: ‘Repent, for the kingdom of God is nigh’. Man tends to reject this, and to resent the messenger. Whatever the culture is, we are counter-cultural. But the State will exact a price. If it is Christian, that price is that the Church approves some of what it does; if it is not, it is higher. There are always those who think that we should not compromise; fewer when the time for real martyrdom comes.
Rome has provided, and continues to provide, a non-national, supra-national authority to which Catholics can appeal. It is not perfect, it is not ideal, it is a Church full of sinners. But I am unsure the other options on offer are more desirable.
Many people would be accepting of the terms domestic partnership or civil union but the gay community’s uncompromising ridiculous insistence of the employment of the term “marriage” is an intentional slap in the face to traditional religious and cultural norms. Democracies are characterized by a great deal of tolerance but it seems that every group of alternative life styles expect a constitutional bill of rights legitimizing their particular way of life which is not necessary at all and expect an entire society to amend foundations. Without the slap in the face most people would not care or even pay attention.
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It seems that in the developed Western world, what started out as subtle attacks on Christian values and teaching is beginning to quicken. In the U.S. it is obvious that the Obama Regime is steadfastly opposed to anything within a faith tradition that remotely affects his policies of state. The government is imposing its will on the Christian faith and tying us up in endless lawsuits that never seem to go away. I think a showdown in inevitable in the end as we have no other recourse than to try to get the government off the back of religion or we will wind up with a faith that is gutted of moral absolutes and will be silenced by legal means from teaching that which will oppose the will of the state. We have seen this tactic already in force within our military where they have a tighter control.
The big question to me is when will we see a real spiritual leader who can lead the fight? Where is our Lech Walesa’s in the Church? At this time we have done little more than talk these issues to death but do we have the fortitude and passion to (as you say) risk martyrdom for the Kingdom of God? Meetings and synods and such are fine as long as the result in an action that will oppose that which is quickly turning into our enemies. Action is called for and a counter revolution that will topple this revolution of the state to bring the influence and perhaps the faith to an end. The situation demands that we grow spines and will certainly need some leadership that puts us face to face with our enemies and finally say directly to them that we will not comply with unjust laws and anti-christian mandates nor will we allow our tax money to be spent for things that are intrinsically immoral and make of us partakers in sin.
I too hope we have a few willing to stand and fight and martyr themselves should it come to that. It would be nice for the Pope and the Cardinals to offer us some hope and encouragement for such a fight – but they may need to be pushed into it by those on the ground level I fear and I don’t see a laity that is united enough to agree on breakfast much less the larger issues of religious freedom and moral absolutes.
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I think you know, SF, like I do, Europe is gone, it’s slowly dying, mostly by failing to reproduce. I’d guess by 2050, certainly by the end of the century, it’ll be Islamic. I don’t think it can be fixed. The UK could be, but not as long as it wants to be an adjunct of Europe. Britain for the most part turned away from Europe under the Tudors, and built the world we live in. Starting about in World War I it started turning back, leaving it’s own heritage. There’s nothing that anybody but their citizens can do.
The future is, if we’re lucky, India, otherwise China. (Or possibly the alliance of China, Russia, and Iran) America is a special case, all we really have to do is to get the federal government back under control, if we can manage to back up to about 1857 or so, we’ll be fine, if not, we’re still Europe redux.
Chances for us? 65-35 against, which is better than it’s been in decades.
If we try to make religious arguments here: we lose, because so can the Islamists, and our history makes them correct, same with the radical atheists, greens , all the other loons. We have to do it politically, just like we did 200 years ago, and for the same reasons. An unexceptional America is, (and that includes any special mark-outs for any religion) in a word, Europe.
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You’re more of an optimist concerning the US than I am Neo. I guess these last 5 years have made me think that our fate has already been cast: the constitution is useless in this putsch regime and there really is no outcry that this country has been seized by agents of totally different stripe than what this country purports to be – a democratic republic. So, in my negativism, I see our chances as much slimmer than you do to mount a counter-revolution. There was hope with the Tea Party and hope with all the scandals etc. and they have all been swept under the rug and our leaders are spineless and our people are vocally patriotic but few really get the fact that we are not operating with 3 branches of government anymore except in symbol. This country is being run by 1 branch only: they have neutralized the congressional branch and have seized the legal branch (as we can see starting way back when personal property rights were violated and now with this illegal ‘tax?’ that we must pay if we don’t want insurance). It is now a monarchy at best and a totalitarian regime at worst. What happens next is anybodies guess. But my money says that when the goodies dry up and the jobs disappear there will be chaos but history says that the chaos and anarchy leads to an even stricter form of totalitarianism. So I fear for my kids because it won’t be easy. They have screwed up the economy beyond belief and our debt is so enormous that it can’t possibly be paid back – not mention the real inflation that nobody sees (all the zeros and ones in the Fed that is creating money out of thin air). When it collapses (and it will) there will be hell to pay. I hope you are right and that there is some way to fix it before the bubble bursts but that bubble could burst any day. It is all about trust: and I think the people are running out of that commodity rapidly.
And you are probably right, my friend, this is perhaps a prerequisite to a religious freedom battle. But since they are intertwined into the politics of today I can see factions of both political and ideological forces as well as religious forces coming to blows in the future and perhaps at the same time.
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The old rule applies, Servus, if it can’t be done, it won’t be. I think maybe Snowden caused a breakpoint, suddenly a whole lot of people, the ones who actually love freedom (from all across the spectrum) sort of woke up, and 404 care is demonstrating the Federal governments complete corruption and incompetence.
Same holds true for the Fed dollar, I doubt it lasts out the decade, Europe will last about 4 hours without it, China maybe a week but, the real, out in the field America will start over, we built it and can damned well rebuild it too.
Key thing right now is to forget the parties (there’s only one really in Washington, anyway) and vote the candidate. The Tea party is not known by the name (which got hi-jacked anyway) but I think it’s stronger, and 2014 will be one heckova wake up call. Or I’m wrong which is surely possible. Our hand isn’t that weak right now, and we have to play them anyway.
Thing is the FSA (Free S**t Army, if you don’t know) has no leadership, only paymasters, they can be beaten but, only if we try.
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Well the FSA is certainly a big part of it Neo. If they outnumber the rest, how long will the hard workers that built this country last in their attempt to rebuild? My guess is that the FSA will resort to killing, robbing and mob violence. It will be a scenario that our good, hard-working citizens have not faced before while trying to build a life for themselves and their families. Work hard, build things, buy things and have the FSA steal it from you as they are now doing legally by government fiat. It will certainly be a challenge. I am hoping 2014 is going to be a wake up call and I hope it carries over to 2016 which an even more pivotal moment for this country.
Something else this Congress needs to rethink is who they declare are religions. They seem to have no guidelines by which they operate. If they say they are a religion then they are even if all indications are that they are more likely a ideological movement to enslave women and keep the people in ignorance and poverty. Here I am thinking (as I bet you knew) about Islam. We need to be careful about how we apply our laws and be diligent in enforcing law which is the other 800 lb. gorilla. This country has more laws and regulations that it ever had in the past and they pick and chose which ones are enforced and what group that they will enforce them on. Doesn’t seem like justice is blind anymore – but is nothing but a good ol’ boys club.
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Key to your paragraph is: For how long, we’re the people with effective arms, and leadership, not to mention discipline. I don’t see much of the FSA getting into combat with a bunch of people who know what interlocking fields of fire are-or at least not for long.
On the other, you already know I agree with you but the old answer is the right one. say anything you damn please, act to hurt somebody and you’re gone. believe anything you want, if you want converts, you earn them with your mouth, not your fist.
And it need to devolve back at least to the state capital, maybe lower. We don’t need all the nonsense in the capital of corruption.
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Amen to all of that Neo. Of course, one other unknown today is the hollowing out of our military and the beefing up of a ‘peoples army’ a la NSA, Home Security, and the like. These secret entities that seem to be operating outside of Congressional oversight. How it all comes out – I have no clue. Only saying that there are a lot of unknowns and much confusion as to how successful this putsch has been in their real but hidden agenda. We will find out soon enough I fear.
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I don’t overly worry about the military-there so-called cleaning out is very over-hyped, the undertraining which we have can cut either, both, or neither way.
TSA et al (including the militarization of local LE is worrying. There’s lots of unknowns, to be sure. But that’s why it’s the very last resort, as the old saying has it, prosperous people don’t fight wars, it’s too hard on the crockery.
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Another true statement, Neo. And one final thought about a counter revolution is the fact that we have never fought such when there was not a demarcation of territory from competing sides of conflict. this time, it is a divide in every community throughout the land which lends itself to terrorist tactics and guerrilla warfare. Hope we have the stomach for it should it ever come to that. Hopefully, this can be settled politically over a long period of attrition. But the future today is sketchy at best.
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Actually we did. The second English Civil War, which we call the Revolution. It was exactly like that, especially in the south where the Swamp Fox was campaigning and in New Jersey as well. And don’t forget that Ben Franklin’s own bastard was the Royal governor of New Jersey.
And the border states, including southern Ohio and Indiana were like that in the Civil War as well. It’s ugly though, very ugly, and worth almost anything to avoid.
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Indeed so. Worse now, as we share apartments and workplaces with 2 very different ideologies; though, once again, I think we will find the South more in step with the constitution than the North and the rural populations siding with the South and the urban populations largely siding with the Northern states. Strange that!
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Yep. And here is where I get to pop my trick question of the day.
The last time a federal law was successfully nullified?
Wisconsin, 1856-the Fugitive Slave Act. It wasn’t just the south on that either.
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Interesting fact there Neo. Well now I can leave having learned something new. Thanks. 🙂
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It’s one of my favorites, it drives libruls nuts 🙂
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I bet it does. 🙂
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And that’s always a worthwhile endeavor 🙂
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But of course. Although we all know they are already nuts and there is little help available to them. They are well suited for Obamacare. 🙂
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I see the WSJ had a story on the VA lobotomizing serious cases of battle fatigue after WW II, maybe they could try again. 🙂
I’m hanging around here too much, Google spell insists on ‘zed’ not and ‘s’ in lobotomize. 🙂
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Going by to the King’s English then? And, yes, I fully support lobotomies for libs in fact that could be a good campaign slogan come to think of it. At least it would be a selling point for Obamacare with conservatives. 🙂
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You can keep your (disconnected) brain, if you want your (disconnected) brain 🙂
Seems to type that way sometimes, and make more sense, frankly 🙂
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Or drug addled brain. Whatever the case may be. 🙂
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Yepper 🙂
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🙂
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🙂
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The ways of God are not of this world, ……This statement doesnt make much sense. Maybe its me.
My kingdom is not of this world:……….John 18;36
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But in this world, Bosco, how do we guard his Church?
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How do WE guard His church? The same way the hebrews crossed the Red Sea.
Jesus is a big boy. He is the Good Shepherd. He leadeth me to still waters. Now if a wolf is closing in on the sheep, what does the Shepherd do? Tell the sheep to go and run off the wolf? Do the sheep pick up arms and attack the wolf? What say ye good brother Chalcedon? Jesus is the Good Shepherd, and men are the sheep of his pasture.
We (you) might have to take arms to defend your religion. But the Lord is my Shepherd, i shall not want.
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What I say is look at the Church of the East – millions slaughtered.
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What church of the east? Do you mean the Orthodox church? And who are the millions dead? Sorry, i need more info on that. But in general, people are killed all the time. God came to earth and got himself killed.
Fear not him who would kill the body. But fear him who would destroy body and soul in hell.
Christ is a big boy.
Stand still and behold the salvation of the Lord.
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C 451: I do not think there will be any means of guarding the church physically as was previously possible by a church with military or political power. I do not think there is any possibility of a return to this model.
Mass spiritual revival, ground roots faith and moral reformation of nations through evangelism leading to just laws is a possibility. But I rather think what we will see is a worldwide numerical growth of serious disciples of Christ with a growth of persecution.
The churches need to build cells of fully committed disciple groups to withstand whatever comes. I attended a meeting in the UK addressed by leaders of the underground church in China under immense pressure they have continued to grow numerically. I’m aware this was not the case with the church of the east in the face of their persecution. Some study and analysis of these two situations may show us a way forward.
Christ did not guard Himself and told his followers to take up their cross and follow and warned them of persecution.
God has been working through history and the gospel of Christ is now spread more wildly across the world than ever. However we understand it we have the promise from Christ that when this gospel has been preached to the whole world the end of this age will come. Notice it says preached not received. That is what I think we should be primarily focusing on rather than our protection. But then I’m an evangelist what would you expect me to say.
Not the answers a large institutionalize church may want but it’s how I THINK things may end.
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The big question to me is when will we see a real spiritual leader who can lead the fight?
Sit tight. Hes on the way
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; …………2 thess 2;3
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Still waiting, Bosco.
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Say, something just crossed my little mind just now. Why isnt the Pope, the Pontifex Maximus the man that you follow behind? When hes elected, everyone(catholics) jump for joy. Now you sit here and dram of someone to take the spiritual lead. Isnt that what to Pope is for? Pontifex is a term or title given to the bloodthirsty ceasars. It mean pontoon…a bridge to god. A way for man to get to god. Whats the matter? You got the Pontifex. All should be roses.
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Bosco, look to the Cristero War in 1920’s Mexico or the Vendees of the late 18th century in France. It takes men and women who refuse to be intimidated and coerced into a secular world and denounce their faith. Do we have people today who have the virtue of courage and fortitude to do what these men and women of the recent past did? Since the Church will not fail, we will overcome or survive but how many will need to die or be persecuted before we find the backbone to risk our lives and our fortunes to defend our faith or the faith of others? The longer it takes for us to find this courage the harder it will be to fight. Are the people largely inculturated into the secular world or will it take someone or some catastrophic event to unite us in this stand against the systematic destruction of Christianity? Best pray for perseverance in faith, courage and fortitude, Bosco, otherwise our fate will be like the Church of the East as C has pointed out.
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Fully agree Servus: We need much more than some great spiritual leader we rather need many people with the backbone you talk of, people not conformed to this word. One of the differences between the experience of the underground church and the church of the east is the mode of gathering insecret of the former. The church of the east (I suggest) had built a model of church in its cathedral and church buildings not suited to the persecuting that then came and lasted for centuries. It was a model of priest and laity and I suggest understandably so the rank and file refrained from evangelizing their persecutors. This is not the case with the underground church in China some of whom are sending missionaries into the old church of the east territory See:-
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Back To Jerusalem movement (Chinese: 传回耶路撒冷运动) is a Christian evangelistic campaign begun in China by Chinese believers to send missionaries to all of the Buddhist, Hindu, and Muslim peoples who live “between” China and Jerusalem.[1] They believe that the Back to Jerusalem Movement is a call from God for the Chinese church to preach the gospel and establish fellowships of believers in all countries, cities, towns, and ethnic groups between China and Jerusalem.[2] The idea was conceived during the 1920s by Chinese students at the Northwest Bible Institute, however government restrictions and persecution forced the movement to go underground for decades, and its leader Simon Zhao spent 40 years in prison in Kashgar.
Since 2003, the most vocal international proponent of “Back to Jerusalem” has been the exiled Chinese house church leader Liu Zhenying a.k.a. “Brother Yun”. But many Christian leaders in China, such as Samuel Lamb have distanced themselves from Yun and his foreign-funded organisation. Yun intended for “Back to Jerusalem” to evangelize fifty-one countries by sending a minimum of 100,000 missionaries along the Silk Road, an ancient trade route that winds from China to the Mediterranean Sea.[1] Tony Lambert doubts the numbers claimed by outsiders such as Yun, which are unsubstantiated, but the ongoing work of evangelism, both within China and beyond its borders, is being done anonymously by Chinese church members, who make no appeals for money.[3]
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Very interesting account Rob.
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Servus I’m just trying to provide encouragement rather than promote any particular brand of our faith:
I cannot verify the truth about the question of numbers brought up in the Wiki article and am not sure what numbers they are talking about. The people who addressed the meeting I attended in UK were brother YUN identified in Wiki and his mentor from his younger years particularly. To me they seemed honest and humility I thought was a particular characteristic of these men with none of the ‘glitz’ of so many American Evangelist that makes my skin creep.
It was reported but not by them that they led a network of one million believers and there are claims of 10million believers in total in the Chinese underground church many of them trained for mission by persecution rather than institution, not that I undervalue institutions but the former seems to create the backbone we need at this time.
The figure of 100,000 missionaries was the goal they had for the back to Jerusalem mission, and not a claim of the current situation. I have heard that some of these missionaries have already been martyred.
The story of brother Yun’s life is covered in a book “The Heavenly Man”. Again I cannot verify its truth, personally I believe it ,in part as I have seen remarkable miracles first hand, so a bit like the Apostle Thomas, not to my credit, needing to see to believe!
An interesting fact, I think I remember it from the meeting I attended, is that the traveling preachers of the Chinese underground church do not carry a Bible with them – they are required to memories the New Testament before the church recognizes them for that role. If all this is true it is from such places we have cause to hope and be encouraged.
Brother Yun – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia “Brother Yun (云弟兄), a.k.a. Liu Zhenying (刘振营), born 1958, is an exiled Chinese Christian underground church leader and evangelist, and proponent of the Back To Jerusalem movement. Brother … Accounts about his life and ministry are to be found in his autobiography, The Heavenly Man.[2] Yun’s book tells of both extreme persecutions and miracles of deliverance similar to ones found in the Bible.
Another site you may wish to look at Heidi Baker – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia “With her husband Rolland, Heidi founded IRIS Ministries in 1980,[1] a non-profit Christian ministry dedicated to Jesus and service, especially among the poor. After twelve years ministering in Asia, they left in 1992 to do their PhD’s at King’s College London, UK. In 1995 they started a new ministry to the poor and homeless children in Mozambique.[2] Beginning with nothing …”
I have also attended conferences with Heidi the work you can read about followed her healing – she was a worn out / burnt out missionary all her physical strength gone. In one of her books she reported the number of churches established by their mission in Mozambique was I think 8K or 9K (I keep giving these books away to encourage others so that figure is from memory).
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Well we do know by history that underground churches do survive for many, many years: USSR and Japan come to mind as well.
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Well good brother Servus, leave it to you to send me online to research history. I never heard of the Chriteros war. Now i know. Correct me if im wrong. The catholic church had lots of power there. The people were growing tired of the CC trying to run the show. Say, why is the CC always trying to take over everything and every one? Christs kingdom is not of this world. But the greedy CCs kingdom is every bit a part of this world. Good brother Servus, i would never kill clergy or catholics just because im tired of them. Do harm to no man is my motto. But the CC and its minions down there had it coming. The CC has proven itself to be a cruel task master, where ever it has control. Live by the sword…die by the sword.
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Go see the movie, For the Greater Glory, Bosco. It will help you understand the Christeros war.
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I expect I’ll be called a mis-guided zealot for saying this, but here goes…I actually think this chaos is a good thing in its way. It’s teaching Christians to tell the difference between the World and the Kingdom of Heaven. When persecution comes it will separate the wheat from the chaff. The man who trusts in Christ’s Resurrection will suffer his body to burnt rather than make a pledge to Satan. God permits our persecution – He permitted it in Job’s case and you can see it again at Revelation 6:9-11. God is shaking the world so that the unshakeable is left – the Kingdom of Heaven:
25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake[h] not only the earth, but also heaven.”[i] 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may[j] serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12, NKJV
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Much of the talk here indirectly explains why people in America will cling to their guns. The threat is domestic. They don’t intend on using AK-47″s to hunt deer. They’re for the war against the federal Jack Boots. The right to vote in America is a mere illusion of democracy.
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Yes and a lot of that way of thinking by right wing Evangelicals which to me does not look much like the Spirit of Christ.
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Sadly you are absolutely correct.
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aI remain optimistic for Christianity. Unlike others on this blog, the dynamic of the church where I live ( of whatever Christian flavour ) is thoroughly invigorating.
The issues with the church and state in the west do not lie with doctrine, but with education. I mean in schools, not churches.
Where is the traditional sense of history taught in schools? Where is there a vigour for academic excellence and elitism?
These are the causal factors.
C has written in the past on some of the fall out from laxity in education in the UK in recent
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Years. Let us hope Michael Give makes more progress.
I would double the money going to free schools, and take it from welfare.
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Gove. Blasted WordPress Android app.
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Hi Struans: I agree I read the end of the book and learned we win!
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Haha. Very true, my friend.
S.
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Happy friday the 13th every one. May you all slip on banana peels.
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