
Reformation and Counter Reformation in Europe. Protestant lands in blue, Catholic in olive (Photo credit: Wikipedia)
[It strikes me upon reading this that it reads more polemical than I meant it to be. For that I’ll have to say that we are talking here of our historic churches, and they were polemical, and very definitely able to see the evil in each other. And so, as always, if we are to understand the past; we must see the past through its own eyes. That does not mean that our current churches are like that, for indeed they are not. As we have written here, all of us, over and over, we share very much the same belief system. But this is part of how we got here.]
Geoffrey and I have both touched lightly on something that seems to keep coming up. Namely, the Petrine authority and why we don’t accept it. It seems that some have a bit of trouble understanding why that is. Our beliefs do parallel the Orthodox but there is a lot of western history tied up in it as well.
Most Protestant churches to a greater or lesser extent resist authority, outside of the congregation, Anglican and Lutherans both have a smattering of Archbishops and do have bishops but, at least here in the States ours have little authority, really. As far as I remember the only extant Lutheran Archbishop is in Sweden.
But one of the main things I have noticed is that Protestant doesn’t mean what you think it does. It does not refer to us protesting Rome. Instead as Peter Escalante, writing on the Calvinistinternational.com reminded us the other day, it originally meant
[Do not take]“Protestant” to mean “protestor” in the modern sense, when in fact it originally meant “confessor,” “proclaimer,” “testifier.” A brief consideration of this point can be found here. The Reformers were not defined by protest against Rome, they were defined by protestation of the truth.
Protestants are “evangelical” Christians, and evangelical means “of the Gospel” (Remember, the Lutherans were the original “evangelicals.”). This indicates that we stand on the plain meaning of the Old and New Testaments regarding the Gospel, in a way which is less mixed than churches which have not been reformed, although we warmly acknowledge that they are Christians too despite their imperfect understanding or problematic practices. Our faith is Biblical, and therefore “catholic,” which means, “universal.” We are also called Protestants, because the Christians who called the church back to a purer Biblical faith in the 16th century had to bear witness to Biblical truth, and originally, “protest” meant just that: to testify before an audience. And this is what our fathers in faith did.
As we still do. And to be completely honest, that is also what drove the Reformation. Because the one thing that the medieval Roman Church did in all times and in all place was to suppress the Bible from the people, We saw it with Wyclif, we saw it with Tyndale, and we saw it with Luther as well.
Although it’s not strictly necessary to the discussion the following video lays it out well, from the English side.
And I have seen reports that by the time of the Act of Supremacy, roughly half of all English people were more or less literate.
As Geoffrey will tell you, although it mandated putting the Bible in the hands of the people, the Church of England wasn’t necessarily much friendlier to dissent, and neither was the Lutheran church, it’s a function of a state church.
As an aside, the famous religious freedom in the United States came to be to try to tamp down religious conflict. Otherwise you would have Congregational New England, fighting with Catholic Maryland, Episcopal Virginia, Quaker Pennsylvania, Methodist Georgia and all the other variants. And note that originally our Constitution did not restrict the states from any religious test, the only prohibition was a prohibition on a religious test for an office of the United States. States could still have an established church, and some did. In other words, they quite rationally and consciously swept the whole mess under a rug in Philadelphia and got on with making a country.
But if we believe, as we all do that
John 1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Why would a church of that God seek to suppress that Word. The only reason that seemed to be in the mind of those reformers was that that church was not preaching the Word properly. That perhaps that church was
- Not educating it’s clergy well enough. Wyclif particularly commented on this
- Had become corrupt with worldly power (and pleasure) Luther particularly began to doubt the church after his summons to Rome, when he observed the practices of the clergy there. and/or
- Had corrupted the message for its own corrupt ends.
Not to put too fine a point on it, we hold that we did not leave the catholic church, Rome did. In American Constitutional terms, we are an originalist church, going back to the origins of the Faith.
In short, while we are perfectly willing to grant the Bishop of Rome respect, often even Primus inter Pares, perhaps even Patriarchal status, we do not recognize his authority as authority, any more than the Orthodox or the Copts do.
It strikes me further that there is an interesting side issue here. The Protestant lands, almost without exception are those which, never acknowledged the Emperor of Rome either. Is there also a folk memory acting here? You disagree because of England? Why? Yes, there was Roman Britain, but Britain was conquered by the Anglo-Saxons (and Jutes) after that; pushing the Celts into Wales, leaving little trace, and then again by the Normans, who while they came from France were by blood also Scandinavian. I don’t have any theory here, it’s merely an interesting set of facts, which may or may not be relevant to anything.
And some to make mirth · as minstrels know how,
And get gold with their glees · guiltlessly, I hold.
But jesters and janglers · children of Judas,
Feigning their fancies · and making folk fools,
They have wit at will · to work, if they would;
Paul preacheth of them · I’ll not prove it here —
Qui turpiloquium loquitur · is Lucifer’s hind.
Tramps and beggars · went quickly about,
Their bellies and their bags · with bread well crammed;
Cadging for their food · fighting at ale;
In gluttony, God knows · going to bed,
And getting up with ribaldry · the thieving knaves!
Sleep and sorry sloth · ever pursue them.
Pilgrims and palmers · pledged them together
To seek Saint James · and saints in Rome.
They went forth on their way · with many wise tales,
And had leave to lie · all their life after —
I saw some that said · they had sought saints:
Yet in each tale that they told · their tongue turned to lies
More than to tell truth · it seemed by their speech.
Hermits, a heap of them · with hooked staves,
Were going to Walsingham · and their wenches too;
Big loafers and tall · that loth were to work,
Dressed up in capes · to be known from others;
And so clad as hermits · their ease to have.
I found there friars · of all the four orders,
Preaching to the people · for profit to themselves,
Explaining the Gospel · just as they liked,
To get clothes for themselves · they construed it as they would.
Many of these master friars · may dress as they will,
For money and their preaching · both go together.
For since charity hath been chapman · and chief to shrive lords,
Many miracles have happened · within a few years.
Except Holy Church and they · agree better together,
Great mischief on earth · is mounting up fast.
There preached a pardoner · as if he priest were:
He brought forth a brief · with bishops’ seals thereon,
And said that himself · might absolve them all
From falseness in fasting and of broken vows.
Laymen believed him · welcomed his words,
William Langland
Piers The Plowman, Prologue, p. 2
I watched the film *Luther* again this Friday gone. I’ve heard it’s historically inaccurate in places, but I find it really captures something of the emotions and faith behind conversion. There’s that beautiful prayer he repeats throughout the film: ‘I’m yours; save me.’
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He was, indeed, a prayerful man. Both a monk (Augustinian) and a priest (last one in the Lutheran church. And a quite good theologian on his own right as well.
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What I think he underlined well was the importance of conscience in Christian life – that we cannot expect to be justified in making choices that offend our conscience.
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He did, one of the key differences in my mind, to what the RCC was teaching at the time was the emphasis on the individual conscience and free will.
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I’ve been asked a few times, and it’s been made known that I’d be welcome but well, I was raised a Protestant and guess I’ll stay that way, even if I am a bit too Catholic for most of my church. 🙂
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My children, i swam the Tiber. Why dont you? Go in peace.
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I know the feeling: I have a bad habit of pointing out that the focus of the Sunday service among the Catholics and Orthodox is Worship and the Eucharist – that doesn’t go down well with the ‘lets have more preaching’ enthusiasts.
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We do about twice what Catholics do, but we traditionally have. I do prefer Protestant worship to the Mass though. Although I haven’t been to a mass in years, other than some funerals.
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An interesting one Neo
There is much to chew on here. The rise of national States certainly worked against the universal claims of Rome, and the fact that many German Princes on the Continent, and Henry VIII in England backed the reformers was clearly why they survived and prospered where the Lollards and others had not. But there was a price paid for that in terms of State control, which was, I think, the main reason that men like my forebears decided they had to find a way more like that of the Apostles. They realised they would bring on themselves the persecution which that Church had suffered, but across time their way has prevailed – if not for the reasons they thought.
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Much in your comment as well, Geoffrey. I wonder what would have happened if Lollardism had arisen after Caxton set up shop. One of the key factors for Luther was mass communication, and without it I wonder if he would have succeeded either. The 95 thesis were translate into german and printed and spread all over the continent if less than two years.
Maybe Wyclif was just a bit early, I’ve pretty much always seen the Peasant’s revolt as a precursor also, although I didn’t mess with it here.
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Yes, you make an excellent and decisive point. Without the print revolution Protestantism would not have been possible.
I know that RCs will say, and rightly, that the desire of their Church was to preserve the right text and the right teaching, but it isn’t clear to me either than that was the only motive, or, that where it did work, the results were good. I am not aware that Spain or Portugal or the Empire were leading centres of theology; the natives in Latin America were not converted intellectually 🙂
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They have a point, and I’m well out of my depth (darned American education) but I wonder how the accuracy of the Tyndale, and Luther Bible (both translated from the Latin and Greek) compare with the contemporary Catholic (Vulgate?) version.
Nope they surely weren’t, unless they stuffed a copy in their head after they opened it with the sword. 🙂
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They compare well, although it is many years since I worked on such things.
Whilst avoiding the excesses of the KJV only crowd, it is hard to deny that the Authorized Version is one of the masterpieces of world literature. Whenever I hear other versions, they really don’t match up.
Indeed, not a great fan of the sword as evengelical persuader – it didn’t work with my stiff-necked ancestors – just made ’em more stubborn – mind, they were already pretty much that way 🙂
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I thought they probably did. A goodly part of why that video is in the post is that it talks a fair amount about the Tyndale and the KJV (which he says is 85% Tynedale) and how they worked hard to make it a preachers Bible, suitable for reading aloud, and how the KJV was deliberately archaic, even then, which I didn’t know. It’s by far my favorite version mostly because of the beauty of the language.
No, it doesn’t work worth a darn on any of the Northern Europeans, better bring your mind, or you might just find Valhalla, cause we always understood the sword, quite well. 🙂
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The School of Salamanca? St Theresa of Avila?
And I do think that you are conflating the catastrophic failure of catechesis that followed V2 with the historical position: the vast in-roads that Protestant sects are making into Latin America are fuelled by the over-intellectualised catechesis promulgated by the V2 generation, which has left many people ignorant of the Faith, the older methods of catechesis at least left people able to articulate the core tenets of Christianity; and for the vast bulk of Latin Americans there was no compulsion in conversion – many saw the fall of the Inca and Aztec empires as being proof of the failure of their traditional religions and embraced Christianity with enthusiasm.
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Aye, well, you’ve a good point about Southern America. I shall have to look up Salamanca, but I think the general point stands – and applies to the Orthodox too.
The further one gets from it, the more V2 looks like the greatest own goal in the history of the church – and to think there are idiots celebrating it 🙂
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I’m guessing, because I don’t have time to look it up at the moment that The School of Salamanca is the origin of ‘Liberation Theology’
Basically, I agree on V2, there was arguably some good in it, like vernacular masses and such but, overall, a net (large) loss 🙂
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I’d better look it up – that Protestant education of mine again. I still think Luther and Calvin two of the theolgical giants of Christians history 🙂
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I do as well, especially for those of us who promote free choice, although they both (as can Augustine) can get a bit problematical in regards to predestination. 🙂
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Ah yes, that reminds me of our Charles Rex problem. How will the CofE fare if he comes to the throne. I’ve heard that He wants to be Defender of FaithS.
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If they keep it up, he may be like the Black Prince and predecease his mother, well one can hope anyway.
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I do for the same reasons you do, although that is not the teaching of my church, and their reasoning could well be equally relevant.
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Neo,
I am rather shocked to see you repeating one of Bosco’s favourite lines: that the Church kept the Bible away from the people.
Certainly in England, the position up until the Henrican reformation was that the vast bulk of translations (including Wycliffe’s version) carried along with them polemical commentaries and narratives: Tyndale’s bible was banned in England because he had seen fit to include Luther’s commentaries in the Bible.
Up until the later fifteenth century if a person was literate they would have been literate in Latin; vernacular literacy was a later innovation (for example, Eamon Duffy relates the story of a man who taught himself to write and read in English from his Latin primer).
The campaign against Wycliffe was based on the heretical ideas that he and his fellow Lollards preached.
The teaching and preaching of the Church had always focussed on the Bible (hence the proliferation of sculpture and painting on Biblical themes in the typical medieval church), but you are largely talking about a pre-literate, oral culture.
I should also point out that one of the earliest translations of the Bible into English was the Douay version: prepared by the very Church that you levy your accusation against.
Lollardy, with its radical proto-communism was never going to find favour with the elites in this country, but don’t you think it instructive that Protestantism only took hold in those European states in which the elites wished to consolidate their own power?
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Sorry, that should have read Coverdale, not Tyndale.
A further point to consider: French had been a literary language for far longer than English, and we see a large number of French Bibles circulating throughout the period from 1200 until printing finally made books accessible.
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Bosco does occasionally hit a nail, perhaps by accident, as do we all 🙂
I’m sure that in England there were polemical commentaries included, I too have heard that said of Coverdale’s and have no evidence to refute it.
Not necessarily, although I may be wrong here, English would have been the language of trade, and trade was beginning to be increasingly important, and mostly with northern European ports in which the native languages were closer to English than French; Dutch, German and such. In the case of the court sure, but little of real life had to do with the court, although its interference was than, as now, an impediment to trade. (Probably worse, overall).
In ways I agree with you, and have said as much, much of the art and certainly the passion plays were about a rudimentary Christian education, but by this time England was becoming more literate, as I said some reports say that by the time of the Reformation roughly half of England was at least minimally literate. I’m guessing that there were also people that taught themselves Latin from English, necessity can be a strict taskmaster, as can the muse of learning.
With regard to Lollardy, I think you are correct, its politics were unlikely to endear it to either town or court, although I seem to remember that at least one hearing (Blackfriars ?) Wyclif was accompanied to the hearing by John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster. Now I could easily be guilty of a bad memory here.
Your point on Protestantism is valid, although it’s equally true of Catholicism at the time, both were state churches, anything else, like the Anabaptists, both attempted to suppress. It’s more a problem of a state religion, than anything else. As late as 1815 we saw a forced merger of the Lutheran and Reformed Church in Prussia.
French was of course a literary language, and being a daughter language of Latin, had a considerable head start. But English made astonishing progress, for a language that was effectively suppressed, and not far removed from the use of runes instead of the Roman alphabet at the time of Beowulf. I’m reasonably sure that French was more the language of the aristocracy, while English progressed more away from the court and in trade.
Douay is the obvious counterexample, of course, but the fact that there was a French vernacular Bible is in a sense irrelevant, there was not an English, or German, one. Why?
In truth, it seems in history, England is nearly always a special case, the people have never been willing to shut up and do as they’re told, and the history shows it. It’s a feature, not a bug, as we say. England has always been nearly as ungovernable as the United States, and that why it became a world leader, once the aristocracy managed to align with the people.
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Neo
At this time in history the language of the law in England, for the purposes of contracts and trading documents, was an antiquated form of Norman-French: English didn’t get a look-in (and accounts, rarely progressed above numeracy).
Forgive me if I’m misreading you, but Douay was an English translation, not a French translation.
And French really did have the head-start: there was a thriving French vernacular literature in both sides of the channel up until the middle f the fifteenth century; the writers in English of the fifteenth century were blazing a trail (hence our comparatively irregular orthography).
The early history of the bible in English is not one of clerical suppression of a text, but suppression of those attempting to use that text to preach heresy; Wycliffe’s men didn’t just go out to read scripture to the masses, they went out to proclaim a very particular interpretation of that scripture.
I am sure that you are right in your proportions of those having basic literacy skills in the mid sixteenth century, but until Caxton and the widespread availability of paper in the last decade of the fifteenth century, not many had access to reading matter, let alone the actual ability to read (and, as I mentioned in my first comment, people were learning to read and write English having first learnt to read Latin – squeezing English vowels and constants into the badly-fitting Latin alphabet).
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No, you read me right, i was wrong, while I’ve read some of Douay, I thought it was an English translation of French. I was just plain wrong.
And yes, written government & much oral as well at the time of Wyclif was Anglo-French. What little I’ve read of Wyclif’s indicates and what the video says as well is that it is a difficult translation, essential what one would get from Google translate. Mostly a word for word translation without adapting the grammar. Which would make it prone to misunderstanding at least, which may or may not lead to a supposition of preaching other than a straight gospel. It’s surely possible, in any case, it plowed the ground for what came later, which were honest translations.
I wonder if we’re not somewhat talking past each other here, there was a lot of progress between the the time of Wyclif and the Reformation. I suspect we’re not as far apart as we think we are.
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An historical note: the term ‘Protestant’ originally had nothing to do with theology. It was a term applied to the German princes who signed a letter of protest against the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which reversed the 1526 Diet decision to tolerate the Evangelical movement and instead reinforced the Edict of Worms banning it. It was a political term.
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I’m certainly not about to contradict you, I hadn’t read that but, it makes sense.
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It’s an interesting term. Somehow, the political term “protestant” meant to mean anyone “not-Roman/Orthodox”. It’s a hugely confusing term these days that, because of its broad meaning, now means very little. One day, I feel like I’m going to do a study of how the word has changed over the centuries, but who has the time?
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It is, and my point, following on from the quote is that we are not defined by what we are against but, by what we are for.
Part of that is that English usage has changed and that now ‘to protest’ is to argue against, as opposed to to proclaim or testify.
It would be an interesting study, I think.
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Last week we took a holiday in St. Lucia which is 75% Catholic. Our taxi driver turned out to be a Baptist, having converted from Catholicism. He told me that his mother (still a Catholic) had recounted to him that in her younger days if the priest found a bible in a Catholic home he would be removed. The reason he gave was that the RCC did not want the people to know the truth.
I seems the practices of forbidding the Bible to the people has existed in some parts dominated by the RCC until quite recently and has provided grounds for criticism and mistrust of the RCC.
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It surely did in England and Germany, I thought it had died out after Trent, though.
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Well, my 1914 copy of the Douay-Rheims bible begins with a table setting out the indulgences that could be obtained for reading the Bible!
Until V2 Catholics would not swear on or acknowledge Protestant versions of the Bible (separate Catholic bibles had to be kept in courts until quite recently); if Rob’s driver’s mother had been given a Protestant bible, then a dustier type of priest probably would have removed it. Even today we find some of the translation decisions in the KJV tendentious as well as rejecting the exclusion of the Deuterocanon.
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I didn’t know that, which is interesting and of course we have the opposite problem with Douay-Rheims, that one we aren’t likely to solve 🙂
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There are ignorant priests as well as ignorant non-Catholics.
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Sorry for the error i.e. The Bible would be removed.
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-My son Rob, The CC doesnt want people nosing around in the bible. Its better that way. They dont ask questions. We dont want them asking Jesus for anything. We forbid it. They must go to our Virgin Queen for salvation. Once in a while it happens, some disobedient catholic reads the bible, finds Jesus and quits the holy Roman catholic church. Then he tells of his findis and takes other catholics with him. We dont want you to find Jesus. We want you on your knees befor a golden monsterance. Why, in our glory days, we would boil you in oil for owning a bible. We would torture you in the most horrible unspeakable ways. We are the one true holy roman universal pure and white catholic gods one true church that Christ founded. We will kill you if you think otherwise. Go in peace my children.
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Go ahead, Wayne, name one individual “boiled alive” for owning a Bible.
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I would be obliged if you refered to me as Father, my child Raven. It appears that the Holy Office has burned 99% of the Inquisition records. Finding a name of one out of the millions put to death by my beloved catholic church is quite the task. Writings of the times have lots of info. So do wood carvings and other pictures created during the periods in question. My son Raven, i thought you gave up strong drink. You cant be suggesting that our beloved catholic church did no harm to anyone, can you? Get back to me when reason returns with the morning. Go in peace my child.
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Goodness, Wayne, you mean that all of those thousands of pages of manuscript that historians have been reading have been burnt? Did that happen recently? They were still there when Kamen was researching them in the nineties.
Or is it just that you like the sound if the allegation and think that Chick tracts are a reliable source of information?
I’ll tell you what, Wayne,
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I’ll help you out: if you google Martyrs if Nagasaki or the Korean Martyrs, you’ll find plenty of people murdered horribly for owning bibles.
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My child Raven, its Father Bosco to you. I fully expect you to believe anything that comes out of the official propaganda machine from our beloved CC. Any contrary evidence you ignore. And no i didnt get that from a Chick Tract. You are not famous for your store of factual information. We clergy like it that way. If the flock thought for themselfs, we would not have any flock left. Oh sure, there are those who just adore the pomp and circumstance and will remain in the CC just on those grounds alone. Which reminds me of you my child Raven. A show is all you are interested in. Its obvious you only look at the pictures when you open a book. I have to get out of bed and contact one of my clients. She says her interior design is all wrong. Otherwise, ill look where to find info that the Holy Office burned(got rid of) most of the records of the people it had killed. We dont want that kind of stuff hanging around.We can deny it if there is no solid proof. Everyone knows about the inquisition, but we can and do still deny it. Thats the stock in trade of my beloved catholic church; making sweeping claims and denying accusations. Thats all that comes out of the Vatican, is talk. We dont make refridgerators of wheel chairs. We just say things that sound good. And the flock, such as yourself believes it all. How wonderful.Ill bet that you would deny that our beloved church burned at the stake several famous astronomers. Keep up the good work. And remember to drop your dime in the basket. More money for me to live in splendor. Go in peace my son.
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Making sweeping charges and not being able to back them up, Wayne? That’s your MO no ours.
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