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Mushtaq has now responded, and you can find his full replies here. The nature of his replies involves a good deal of repetition, and he fails, utterly, to deal with my central point about the Church. My new comments are in bold, his responses in ordinary type. My old comments are put into italics to distinguish them from my new ones.
Dialogue with a Muslim friend: The Holy Name.
TABLE OF CONTENTS (TOC # 4) –
TOC Title = Dialogue with a Muslim friend: The Holy Name (3D)
TOC Date: 06 Oct 2013
Dialogue between: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq and Jessica Hoff
TOC Author: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
TOC compression ratio: 9 pages compressed to 2 pages (4.5:1)
1-JESSICA:
In my initial response to Mushtaq, I have explained . . . ?
1-MUSHTAQ:
Please read her previous articles answered by me. Here I don’t want to repeat same stuff.
2-JESSICA: (baptizing them in name of Father, Son Holy Spirit & Son of God) . . . ?
2-MUSHTAQ:
I have two answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Indication of corruption in concept of God by Church)
3-JESSICA:
Apostle John writes about Son of God . . . ?
3-MUSHTAQ:
I have following THREE answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (John waited for 70 years to open door of corruption in Gospel)
Answer 3: (Authorship of the Johannine works is controversial in scholarship)
4-JESSICA:
Who can dare say that the Book canonized by the Church founded by Christ does not bear witness that He is the Son of God . . . ?
4-MUSHTAQ:
Answer 1: (Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Possible error of ‘s’ in John 1:1)
5-JESSICA:
Truth taught from the beginning, that Blessed Jesus is the Son of God, and that God is Father . . . ?
5-MUSHTAQ:
Answer 1: (Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Disciples of Blessed Jesus were illiterate in Trinitarian definition of Trinity)
Answer 3: (Allah and Muslim worship is not strange to Prophets)
END OF TOC
1-JESSICA:
In my initial response to Mushtaq, I have explained why the whole methodology he is following is fatally flawed. Christ wrote no book, He is the Word, and He founded a Church, and that Church is the body which established both the nature of the NT and of the Trinity: the two go together, and to use to book to disprove the doctrine is pointless, as that is to misread the book.
1-MUSHTAQ:
Thank you Madam Jessica for your article that you wrote for me.
However, if readers want to see reality of these claims what Madam Jessica “has shown”, then please read her previous articles answered by me. Here I don’t want to repeat same stuff.
I have replied each and every point raised by Madam Jessica in previous articles, response is awaited from Madam Jessica, and therefore, now there is no need to repeat my answers here. Now we shall discuss this article at hand.
I am disappointed, Mushtaq. You have not responded to my comments that Christ wrote no book but founded a Church; unless you do, there is no dialogue, as it appears as though you have a script from which you are reading – which is not dialogue. The point here is crucial, and you seem to refuse to address it. The Church which decided on the Canon of the NT also decided on the Trinity. Are you stating that you know better than the Church how to read its book.
I reiterate, this is critical, and unless you address it soon I shall have no choice but to assume you cannot, and will invite my readers to draw the same conclusion as I shall from it.
2-JESSICA: (baptizing them in name of Father, Son Holy Spirit)
Nonetheless, let us deal, patiently and with prayerfulness, with the points raised by Mushtaq. His full text can here found on the special page ‘Dialogue with a Muslim’.
Mushtaq asks why none of the prophets nor Blessed Jesus used the words ‘Three’ or ‘Trinity’ or ‘Triune’. This is explained in my post here ‘Dialogue with a Muslim’. Blessed Jesus established a Church which used these words. It did not, as Mushtaq implies, simply stumble across them in the fourth century. Blessed Jesus Himself told His followers to:-
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
It is from here, as well as many other NT passages that the Church founded by Blessed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, drew its doctrine of the Trinity.
2-MUSHTAQ:
I have two answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 010 – Yûnus. Verse 68.
They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a SON. Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
I have already discussed in detail this verse (baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) in this set of 5 articles (In “Early Fathers” and “Blessed Jesus and Trinity”) so no need to repeat same answers here.
You again used “Son of God”, I have explained already that “Son of God” is an expired term after invention of Trinity. See my summary points “Divine Sonship contradicts Trinity” and “Son of Triune God contradicts Trinity.”, still waiting to be answered by you.
So I feel no need to repeat my response here.
You have not ‘explained’ anything. You have asserted, without evidence, that it is ‘an expired term’, without showing how or why. I have shown it is used in the NT. I have already shown how there is no contradiction, so for you to say you await an answer again puzzles me; it is as though unless I answer to your script you are unable to answer. You advance no argument or evidence; this is not dialogue, it is assertion on your part. I await actual evidence.
It is sad that you ignored to reply 11 summary points one by one in my Summary #1 of our dialogue, which has now resulted in repetition and duplication in our dialogue, though our dialogue is still friendly, but it is leading to a random and repeated pattern of arguments, I shall try to avoid duplication and randomness in our dialogue through the Summary points etc of our dialogue so that it will help to move forward our dialogue in an organized manner, rather than moving in same circle.
If you stop using a script and respond to my answers, this would not happen. You write as though using a script from which you are unable to deviate, because you fail to understand my central point. Christ founded a Church. That Church canonised His words in a book at the same time it established the Trinity. Now, unless you can show that the men who canonised the NT failed to understand it, and explain why a non-Christian like Mohammed understood it better, you have failed.
Answer 2:(Indication of corruption in concept of God by Church)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 199.
Then hasten onward from the place whence the multitude hasteneth onward, and ask FORGIVEness of Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
What you call, Church “drew” its doctrine of Trinity, this “drew” is the thing we Muslims call corruption, when Prophets and Blessed Jesus had not right to use number three to define concept of God, then how can Church be so more intelligent and more powerful than Blessed Jesus to define God with number three?
It can be clarified by a simple question.
Is concept of God (Trinity) a basic requirement of salvation? Answer surely is yes, then Why did Blessed Jesus not use number “three” to teach concept of God to his nation?
You call it ‘corruption’, but why? Are you asserting that you understand the Book of the Church better than the Church? Jesus speaks, as I showed you, of Father son and Holy Ghost, as His Church does. He speaks of it and tells us to baptise in those names. He speaks here of the Trinity, so you are incorrect to say he does not.
To be crystal clear: the Koran has no authority, and whatever it says is as relevant to the NT as the Book of Mormon.
Jessica. As I warned you, Mushtaq is not here for a dialogue. He is used to dealing with Evangelicals, which is what the script he is working from addresses.
My very strong advice is that unless he actually engages with the central argument, you should let the rest of it be. He simply repeats himself because he cannot deviate from the script. I came across this technique with Islamists trying to derail Copts.
Do not let this submerge the blog, you have more important things to do. I just read through his long and rambling answers, which amount to an insistence you answer it his way. This is not dialogue, it is repetition, and frankly, it is becoming boring.
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Oh dear, I am sorry. I am doing my best to be fair, but I do agree, the repetition is becoming a problem.
I wonder whether a way forward is to advise those who want the full texts to read them in the comments and then to summarise responses with references to Mushtaq’s originals?
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There is fair and fair, Jessica. Fair would be Mushtaq addressing your point about the Church and its book; fair would be Mushtaq answering your points rather than going on at length with his script; but it is your blog, my dear, and I am simply trying to help find a way of not overloading it with one topic. 🙂
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Much appreciated – as always 🙂 xx
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I see from your second one that you’ve done it 🙂 Now slow down … 🙂 x
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Greetings & God bless you Madam Jessica !
Sorry Madam Jessica! I can understand your feelings and emotions after receiving my rebuttal / refutation / answer. We have no personal bitterness or fight with each other. I feel at personal level we are respectful to each other. It is the area of dialogue which causes some differences between us, but still we can settle them friendly and politely. We are just talking in a friendly way on
“Christian Muslim Dialogue”. I can understand your reservations that you presented here, now I want to present the reasons & remarks which are causing trouble here. I hope you will understand my viewpoint. These are as follows:
REASON # 1: Our Dialogue is now no more small, it has expanded to a much larger scale. Today on 06 Oct 2013, I have answered your six following articles.
Article 1 that I answered today: Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
Article 2 that I answered today: Basics
Article 3 that I answered today: Early Fathers
Article 4 that I answered today: Jesus & Trinity
Article 5 that I answered today: Holy name
Article 6 that I answered today: Other objections
It is a big deal and needs patience to read once. Even if you are not satisfied after reading them, you will have full right to protest and I shall also admit my mistake if you could point out which point (under discussion) was not answered by me in these very long six articles?
REASON # 2: Due to such a large size, it is not possible to answer your each and every point in this single article “Holy name”, that you read and on which you protest here, so I have dealt them with fair detail in “Basics” Article. Nobody can answer each and every query in a single article. I answered your queries, but in respective articles.
REASON # 3: So please read with patience one by one all six articles that I posted today on your blog, but I shall recommend that you follow same sequence which I adopted in writing and which I have given above.
REASON # 4: As far as repetition is concerned, it is for the sake of making Table of Contents. You know detailed Table of Contents (TOC) is a “repetition” Why am I making Table of contents? It is facility for reader to have a quick look to
the contents of long article in one go. You know use, purpose & benefits of Table of Contents and I don’t need to explain further.
Another reason to use Table of Contents I explained in “Basics”, please read there. (There is one repetition; here not of this kind, that caught eyes, is Son of God expired term, I wanted to merely highlight an important pending issue needing your attention)
In the end, I want to say that Delay in Answer is not important, Answer is important.
Kind regards,
Mushtaq
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Mushtaq, I am answering as seems best to me. If I repeat all your comments and my answers, I will have posts of more than 5000 words, which is far too much to expect anyone to read.
The central point of mine, which you have not dealt with, is that it is the Church founded by Jesus which tells us what is Scripture, and which tells us God is Trinity. You offer, against its teaching, words of men, but why are they to be preferred to the teaching of the Church?
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Mushtaq – I am answering in my own way, taking passages from what you have commented and placing them in posts which deal with each theme, it is much less confusing for readers.
Your Easter challenge I shall deal with in another piece later. I am surprised you think it hard, but perhaps a complete answer will help you find the True God, so I will take that easy challenge.
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Yes good brother Mushstag, only the catholic church knows the bible and the truth. We have the deposit of faith. God works thru the catholic church. So you see, all you have to do is look at the CC all thru history to see and know that the CC is gods true holy apostolic wonderful kind gentile pure and white church. Even Jesus humbly bows in obedience to the catholic priest. Our priests are sincere godly men of god. Oh thank you Mary from preserving our church in its holiness.
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Bosco – why not join in answering him?
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Good sister, i just did. i told him the CC is gods true one holy apostolic pure and white universal peace loving led by the spirit church. What else is there to say? ….Oh please please please become catholic, with sugar on top.
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In other words, you are wimping out – gee, thanks pal 🙂 xx
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I am best friends with a muslim lady. I even live in her hose while working for her. I am told muslims have nothing to do with graven images. They really really hate them. So, good luck selling catholicism to him. We know the truth. That images are a wonderful thing and we are suppose to use them to get closer to god. But muslims dont suffer from that ideology. Oh thank you Mary, for being present in your statues and crying over us.
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I am ‘selling’ Christianity to him – but perhaps that’s too hard for you?
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Good sister Jess, im not selling christianity anymore. Im catholic, not christian. Anyway, im not interested in fighting with some muslim. I have to get out of bed and go to a jobsite and check on equipment. i cant even get sunday off. Im busy learning about my new faith. Im learning about the popes and im trying to find one to base my life on. You know, like a favorite saint. Im leaning towards Sixtus III. Also, im tossing around the idea of becoming more Torquemada like in my gentleness towards others. Thank you Mary, for giving us such wonderful role models.
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Well, thanks pal 🙂 xx
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