Tags

,

muslim_with_christian_iv[128x175]

Mushtaq has now responded, and you can find his full replies here.  The nature of his replies involves a good deal of repetition, and he fails, utterly, to deal with my central point about the Church.  My new comments are in bold, his responses in ordinary type. My old comments are put into italics to distinguish them from my new ones.

Dialogue with a Muslim friend: The Holy Name.
TABLE OF CONTENTS (TOC # 4) –
TOC Title = Dialogue with a Muslim friend: The Holy Name (3D)
TOC Date: 06 Oct 2013
Dialogue between: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq and Jessica Hoff
TOC Author: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
TOC compression ratio: 9 pages compressed to 2 pages (4.5:1)

1-JESSICA:
In my initial response to Mushtaq, I have explained . . . ?

1-MUSHTAQ:
Please read her previous articles answered by me. Here I don’t want to repeat same stuff.

2-JESSICA: (baptizing them in name of Father, Son Holy Spirit & Son of God) . . . ?

2-MUSHTAQ:
I have two answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Indication of corruption in concept of God by Church)

3-JESSICA:
Apostle John writes about Son of God . . . ?

3-MUSHTAQ:
I have following THREE answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (John waited for 70 years to open door of corruption in Gospel)
Answer 3: (Authorship of the Johannine works is controversial in scholarship)

4-JESSICA:
Who can dare say that the Book canonized by the Church founded by Christ does not bear witness that He is the Son of God . . . ?

4-MUSHTAQ:
Answer 1: (Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Possible error of ‘s’ in John 1:1)

5-JESSICA:
Truth taught from the beginning, that Blessed Jesus is the Son of God, and that God is Father . . . ?

5-MUSHTAQ:
Answer 1: (Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Disciples of Blessed Jesus were illiterate in Trinitarian definition of Trinity)
Answer 3: (Allah and Muslim worship is not strange to Prophets)

END OF TOC

1-JESSICA:
In my initial response to Mushtaq, I have explained why the whole methodology he is following is fatally flawed. Christ wrote no book, He is the Word, and He founded a Church, and that Church is the body which established both the nature of the NT and of the Trinity: the two go together, and to use to book to disprove the doctrine is pointless, as that is to misread the book.

1-MUSHTAQ:
Thank you Madam Jessica for your article that you wrote for me.
However, if readers want to see reality of these claims what Madam Jessica “has shown”, then please read her previous articles answered by me. Here I don’t want to repeat same stuff.
I have replied each and every point raised by Madam Jessica in previous articles, response is awaited from Madam Jessica, and therefore, now there is no need to repeat my answers here. Now we shall discuss this article at hand.

I am disappointed, Mushtaq. You have not responded to my comments that Christ wrote no book but founded a Church; unless you do, there is no dialogue, as it appears as though you have a script from which you are reading – which is not dialogue. The point here is crucial, and you seem to refuse to address it.  The Church which decided on the Canon of the NT also decided on the Trinity. Are you stating that you know better than the Church how to read its book.

I reiterate, this is critical, and unless you address it soon I shall have no choice but to assume you cannot, and will invite my readers to draw the same conclusion as I shall from it.

2-JESSICA: (baptizing them in name of Father, Son Holy Spirit)
Nonetheless, let us deal, patiently and with prayerfulness, with the points raised by Mushtaq. His full text can here found on the special page ‘Dialogue with a Muslim’.

Mushtaq asks why none of the prophets nor Blessed Jesus used the words ‘Three’ or ‘Trinity’ or ‘Triune’. This is explained in my post here ‘Dialogue with a Muslim’. Blessed Jesus established a Church which used these words. It did not, as Mushtaq implies, simply stumble across them in the fourth century. Blessed Jesus Himself told His followers to:-

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

It is from here, as well as many other NT passages that the Church founded by Blessed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, drew its doctrine of the Trinity.

2-MUSHTAQ:
I have two answers:
Answer 1: (Son of God is expired term after invention of Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 010 – Yûnus. Verse 68.
They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a SON. Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?

I have already discussed in detail this verse (baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) in this set of 5 articles (In “Early Fathers” and “Blessed Jesus and Trinity”) so no need to repeat same answers here.
You again used “Son of God”, I have explained already that “Son of God” is an expired term after invention of Trinity. See my summary points “Divine Sonship contradicts Trinity” and “Son of Triune God contradicts Trinity.”, still waiting to be answered by you.
So I feel no need to repeat my response here.

You have not ‘explained’ anything. You have asserted, without evidence, that it is ‘an expired term’, without showing how or why. I have shown it is used in the NT. I have already shown how there is no contradiction, so for you to say you await an answer again puzzles me; it is as though unless I answer to your script you are unable to answer. You advance no argument or evidence; this is not dialogue, it is assertion on your part. I await actual evidence.

It is sad that you ignored to reply 11 summary points one by one in my Summary #1 of our dialogue, which has now resulted in repetition and duplication in our dialogue, though our dialogue is still friendly, but it is leading to a random and repeated pattern of arguments, I shall try to avoid duplication and randomness in our dialogue through the Summary points etc of our dialogue so that it will help to move forward our dialogue in an organized manner, rather than moving in same circle.

If you stop using a script and respond to my answers, this would not happen. You write as though using a script from which you are unable to deviate, because you fail to understand my central point. Christ founded a Church. That Church canonised His words in a book at the same time it established the Trinity. Now, unless you can show that the men who canonised the NT failed to understand it, and explain why a non-Christian like Mohammed understood it better, you have failed.

Answer 2:(Indication of corruption in concept of God by Church)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 199.
Then hasten onward from the place whence the multitude hasteneth onward, and ask FORGIVEness of Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

What you call, Church “drew” its doctrine of Trinity, this “drew” is the thing we Muslims call corruption, when Prophets and Blessed Jesus had not right to use number three to define concept of God, then how can Church be so more intelligent and more powerful than Blessed Jesus to define God with number three?
It can be clarified by a simple question.
Is concept of God (Trinity) a basic requirement of salvation? Answer surely is yes, then Why did Blessed Jesus not use number “three” to teach concept of God to his nation?

You call it ‘corruption’, but why? Are you asserting that you understand the Book of the Church better than the Church?  Jesus speaks, as I showed you, of Father son and Holy Ghost, as His Church does. He speaks of it and tells us to baptise in those names.  He speaks here of the Trinity, so you are incorrect to say he does not.

To be crystal clear: the Koran has no authority, and whatever it says is as relevant to the NT as the Book of Mormon.