Examining the rest of the points made by quiavideruntoculi in his post on Honesty, one can say about the other issues he raises, much what my last post said about religious liberty, which is that one must not take one period in the last two thousand years and regard it as normative, whilst ignoring other areas.
If we take the Novus Ordo Mass. Yes, it is certainly not what the Traditional Latin Mass is, but that Mass was a codification of what had gone before, and most certainly was not the Mass celebrated by the early Christians. Perhaps there were those at the time who disliked the changes, and wished that the Church had behaved more like the Orthodox, who still use a Liturgy from much earlier? But the fact is that liturgies change, but they all have in common the elements we see in Justin Martyr’s description. This is true of the Paul VI Mass. Cardinal Burke, like many others, thinks it ‘man-centred’ and ‘banal’. That, I fear, is a subjective view. At the heart of any Mass is the Eucharist, and that is as true of the new Mass as all the old ones. Just because the priest faces the congregation does not make in ‘man-centred’, any more than the fact that the priest used to turn his back on the congregation made it hostile to the people. Christ is at the centre of the Mass, and it is He whom we encounter at the Eucharistic feast. That was, is, and always will be true. We should not blame on the Mass what is rightly to be laid at the door of our society. We are a people who have lost a sense of the sacred and the Divine; our ‘culture’ produces banal products; it lacks a sense of occasion and adores informality and the self. If we see these things in the performance of the Mass, we see them outside. It is our culture, not the reforms which is at fault. Do I prefer one to the other? Yes, but that is not the point.
Ecumenical initiatives are as old as schisms, and whilst it is true that during the Reformation/Counter reformation period, and up to the twentieth century, the Catholic Church embarked on no formal general initiatives, it is untrue that such things are not part of the Catholic tradition. In the 150 years which followed the split at Chalcedon, many initiatives were taken to try to bring the Church back to unity; the same was so after 1054; and since then many other initiatives have borne fruit in the form of some of the Eastern Rite churches reentering the Church. This did not happen because Popes and Bishops told the schismatics to come to heel or else, they happened because lines of communication remained opened. Knowing what it is the Church really teaches has made it easier for generations of Anglicans and Protestants to end up in the Church. There are those who think it would be better for the Church to turn its back on all other forms of Christianity and on all other faiths, and that is a point of view one can respect; these have not included any of the last five Popes, who have responded to disunity as their predecessors before the reformation – by entering dialogue. The other way, tried for so long, has not produced any notable results, so a return to an older tradition may well be timely.
The final part of quiavideruntoculi’s indictment, the move from a monarchical to a more collegial type of papacy is, I fear, the least defensible of all the attempts to shoehorn one way of doing things into a box labelled ‘the sole Catholic tradition’. Before Leo the Great, and afterwards, the Papacy was a more collegial affair than it was in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and the Apostles most certainly did not operate with Peter as absolute monarch. Benedict XVI saw this as a move towards the sort of ‘primus inter pares’ which would allow the Orthodox (and others) to see how unwise and untrue was their fear that the Pope wanted to be an absolute monarch; in the Middle Ages that was a pattern which the Church followed. To attempt to do so now would be to make a claim which no early Pope or post-war Pope has made, and which simply would not work.
In short, the Church, on its long journey through time, carries the Eternal Truth that it is Christ’s Church and in it abides the fullness of the Faith, but it does not do that in an haughty or arrogant spirit; it is the representative of the Father, not the elder brother, and its job is Christ’s job – to bring the lost sheep to the Father and salvation. It does that as best it can, and that best is not to become an anachronism attempting to claim that the High Middle Ages and the Counter-Reformation, with their special circumstances and their mores, is the whole of a tradition which is global and embraces nearly two millennia.
For a long period in the nineteenth and twentieth century, the Catholic Church’s rejection of the modern world attracted to its ranks those who shared that view, and some, like the late Evelyn Waugh, were loud in their execration of the reforms. The Church does not exist to make us comfortable in our ghetto, it exists to bring the word of Christ to the world. Of course, like all attempts to make changes too long delayed, Vatican II has produced its share of over-reaction, not because of what it contained, but because of the wilfulness of those who saw all change as an ally to their own agenda.
There, as in so many other places, lies the real culprit. It is not the reforms, it is the lack of spinal fortitude and confidence of those at the top which has led to the disarray. Our faith in our own culture and values seems in terminal decline. Only by recovering our sense of the rock that is Christ can we reverse that.
“abides the fullness of the Faith, but it does not do that in an haughty or arrogant spirit’
Aye, wheres my helicopter? Im finished with the world leaders kissing my hand and bowing to me. I want a pastrami waiting for me at Castle Galdafndo, and make it snappy.
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I can see Pope Francis depriving you of some of your best lines Bosco.
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Yeah, Francis is dull.
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Yes, he lives in an apartment and doesn’t even have a butler. 🙂
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God on earth doesnt have a butler? Whats this world coming to?
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I appreciated the attitude that Pope John 23rd exhibited as pope, the pastoral priest not monarchical. As you ladies and gents know I am not Catholic but I did get my first teaching job at Catholic elementary school. I recall in 1972 some parishioners were still reeling from the use of a guitar in the service. I suppose they thought it was the tool of Satan blessed by the Doors, Led Zeppelin and the Beatles. Presently the church has 3 masses on Sunday, English, Spanish and Haitian Creole which is indicative of population here. A Latin mass is also available a time or two during the week. It is obvious that each of the cultures have a unique and particular understanding of what it means to be a Catholic . But the Haitian and Hispanic communities are flocking to small independent Pentecostal churches ,Jehovah’s Witness and 7th Day Adventist. Seems old guard traditional Catholicism is losing its appeal for these people. One prominent Lutheran Church has revamped its message and is more Pentecostal than Lutheran. It has been presented that as much as 75% of USA practicing Catholics do not obey Rome’s policies re contraception and abortion. I hear the conservatives call them “pick and choose” Catholics. I have been reading the posts re condemnation of Protestants and chuckle in that there is dissent and widespread non adherence within the Catholic Church itself world wide re diverse cultures and geographic insulation. Seems the Roman Catholic Church is losing its grip and traditionalists/conservatives seem unable or refuse to ask themselves “why?”. Papal visits to different countries may be celebrated but it a very inadequate attempt to shore things up. It is reported that in the USA the fastest growing religions are Islam and Mormonism. God help us then.
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Forgot to mention this is coming from Miami Dade County, Florida USA.
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A simple statement concerning the Novus Ordo:
Josef Ratzinger wrote this in the introduction to the French release of Msgr. Klaus Gamber’s book, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy which photocopies can be found online.
“What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it – as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on -the-spot product. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true prophet and the courage of a true witness, opposed this falsification, and, indefatigably taught us about the living fullness of a true liturgy”. What, then, does this true prophet have to say about a reform which is, in reality, a continued revolution? “The pastoral benefits that so many idealists had hoped the new liturgy would bring did not materialize. Our churches emptied in spite of the new liturgy (or because of it?), and the faithful continued to fall away from the Church in droves.” And again: “In the end, we will all have to recognize that the new liturgical forms, well intentioned as they may have been at the beginning, did not provide the people with bread, but with stones.”
C, the other mystery regarding the Novus Ordo is how did it come to be said facing the people when there exists no official document of the Church that tells the priests to do so? It is a valid liturgy, no question, but is it a reform or a new construct which incorporated the orthodox codification of which you speak?
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As with the quotation you offer, the answer is that it was the times and the men rather than the reforms. The bishops refused to take action when priests used the Council as their cover and alibi. The NO has a beautiful simplicity, but how rarely one sees that practised.
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Amen to that, C. I have not been to a good NO Mass since the deaths of my old priest mentors. It’s been a long time and sadly the situation is not improving in my neck of the woods. Perhaps it is only regional but I don’t think that is the problem as we have a very orthodox bishop.
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Part of it is the way our society has changed. Tempting as it is to blame V2, the Anglicans, who had no V2 have the same problems. It seems to me as much to do with the general breakdown or rider and discipline as it is with any church council.
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Yes the modern age is bursting at the seams with an unruly lot that is for sure. They have not the word obedience in their dictionaries I’m afraid.
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That, alas, is right. It is here that the origin of our complaints lies. There is nothing in V2 which justifies the disobedience and license of the liberals – and the fact they seeks to claim it us otherwise is another of their sins.
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Amen, it is truly sinful when you think of the harm and damage they have done both to the Church and to the salvation of souls.
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It is so. It is one reason why we should not let them claim the protection of a Church Council.
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Of course we should not do that. I only contend that the ambiguities of the documents played into their hands as did the ‘pick and choose’ rubrics of the NO not to mention the actions of many prelates that seemed to condone their nonsense. We still have not condemned those who should have been slapped with excommunication for their actions: tolerance seems to be the by-word of the new Church. Though thankfully Pope Francis just excommunicated a priest in Australia that was teaching errantly about women in the priesthood etc. That was some refreshing news. 🙂
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SF I think you need to couple the exodus of Catholics not just with the NO but at least as important with the sex scandals.
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Well that wasn’t me that was speaking about the exodus of Catholics but Cardinal Ratzinger. I do agree that such scandals do grievous damage to the Church and to those who might want to be priests or religious. It is a wide array of things, David.
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One must certainly add those.
Much of what we complain of in the church is what we also complain of in wider society. Those who blame the ills of the church on V2 might care to explain why every other church suffers from the same problems.
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