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This follows from Mushtaq’s detailed response and summary, which can be found here. The two previous posts in the ‘Dialogue with a Muslim friend’ can be found by following the link.
Before beginning, it is sad that Mushtaq has not responded to the questions which I asked him:
1. Did Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
2. By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
3. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
The reason it is a pity is that had he done so he would have begun to see that he is proceeding from the wrong basis. All of his arguments are based on his reading of a text. This is natural for a Muslim who believes that God dictated a text. This is not what Christians believe. If Mushtaq can cite me one passage from Sacred Scripture which says that Jesus is dictating a text to any one, or where Jesus says that his message is to be found in a book, then he would have some basis from which to proceed.
The answer to my first question is, of course, that Jesus founded a church. It was that Church which decided what was and was not Sacred Scripture. It was that same Church which recognised that God is Trinity. Therefore, to argue, as Mushtaq does, that the Book Canonised by the Church founded by Christ fails to understand Him and His nature, is a fundamental error in logic and methodology.
Either Christ founded a Church which recognised His words in Scripture and His nature in the Trinity, or it did not. If it did not, then there is no point quoting from Scripture as it means nothing as Christ is not who His Church says He is. If He did, then to say that His Church could recognise the Books and not know how to read them is foolish. It is those who are outside Christ’s Church who do not know how to read His words. This Christ Himself told us in Matthew 13:10-18
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’[b]
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it,and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
This, for a Muslim, outside the Church which Christ founded, to claim to know how to read Christ’s words, is fruitless. Christ wrote no book. He is the Word. He founded a Church, that Church knows how to read the Book which it, itself, canonised. So, to claim that a Book it canonised does not support its doctrine is incorrect.
Now, over a series of posts, I shall try to deal with some of the points to be found in Mushtaq’s long posts to be found here.
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Madam Jessica! You wrote here:
“it is sad that Mushtaq has not responded to the questions which I asked him”
Sorry Madam Jessica! I have started work on Part 2 of our Dialogue. Do not worry! It shall not go unasnwered by me. I have not sent it to you because I sent you immediately Re: Part 1 + Summary as soon as completed. Now I am writing reply to Part 2 and also a Summary of Part 2, its reply will reach to you at the web page that you allocated for it.
In order to avoid any such misunderstanding in future, and keep our dialogue a pleasant one, I have decided to send you all responses ONCE and AT ONE Time. (It was we both were doing already when our Dialogue was small in size)
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That is fine Mushtaq. 🙂
You will see that I have put our long dialogues onto a separate page where those who want them can have them.
I have posted two responses today: this one dealing with where I think your methodology is incorrect, as you treat Christianity as though it was about a Book and not the living Church; the second deals with the Church fathers and takes an example of how one must read them.
There will follow, tomorrow, one on Jesus and the Trinity; on Tuesday there will be a fourth and final one dealing with some of the other objections.
I am very happy happy to have them any time and in any manner you wish 🙂
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Dear Mushtaq,
As is my approach I seek to go the source of the Christian faith to establish truth. Jess has used some good logic here in directing you to Christ’s Church. In my response I directed you to the first writings of that church by the apostles and their associates as a reliable source.
However I am sure and Jess will agree with me that the ultimate source of Christianity is Jesus Christ Himself. The apostle Paul describes Him as the cornerstone and only foundation on which the church is built so we have Him preceding the church. The apostle John describes Him as the ‘Word of God’ and the ‘Truth’. So He also precedes the scriptures which reveal something of Him to us.
Marvellously I as a Christian and you as a Muslim have the most important thing about the blessed Jesus in common. We both know that he is alive at this very moment. We arrive at this conclusion in different ways you believe He escaped the cross and ascended to heaven. I believe he died rose and ascended. But we both know he is the prophet that still lives.
My suggestion is that you talk to Him and ask Him as a true prophet of God to reveal Himself to you and make the way of truth plain before you. Surely it should seem a good idea as you have this wonderful opportunity to speak to a living prophet of Islam.
I have advised this to others in the past and together we have proved Him to be alive as he has performed miracles in accordance with his way of life and mission given Him by God and as testified to in both Bible and Quran.
My earlier, long response is a post here now:
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/rob-responds-to-mushtaq/
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Thank you Rob for your remarks. I appreciate your efforts in replying Summary # 1 of my Dialogue with Madam Jessica. I am hopeful we shall have a nice and friendly discussion on that Summary and “Dialogue for Result”, not “Dialogue for Dialogue”.
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You’ll see, Mushtaq, that I have added links to all my responses on the new page:
https://jessicahof.wordpress.com/dialogue-with-a-muslim/
I will ensure that any links to our dialogue are here so that anyone interested can see the full exchange properly 🙂
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Thank you Madam Jessica! I really liked the new web page that you created as a “Home page” for our Christian Muslim Dialogue. Of course this dialogue could start due to your honored friendly behavior and great Patience & efforts in replying my long answers. For which I am thankful to you !
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As I am to you, my friend. We dialogue for a purpose, and also show how we can respect each other as aged wants.
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PART 1 OF 4
Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
TABLE OF CONTENTS (TOC # 1) –
TOC Title = Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics (3A)
TOC Date: 06 Oct 2013
Dialogue between: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq and Jessica Hoff
TOC Author: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
TOC compression ratio: 38 pages compressed to 2 pages (19:1)
1-JESSICA:
Q-1a: Did Blessed Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
Q-1b: By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
Q-1c: What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God? . . . ?
1-MUSHTAQ:
A-1a: Introduction to answer methodology and sequence of this article.
A-1b: Three Brief answers. Details through this article.
(Part I) SOME BASICS: NICE AND FRIENDLY DIALOGUE
(Part II) MY RESPONSE TO YOUR “BASICS” OF CHRISTIAN MUSLIM DIALOGUE TO SHOW THEM INCORRECT.
2-JESSICA:
Q-2: Blessed Jesus wrote no book, he founded a church. It was that Church which decided what was and was not Sacred Scripture. It was that same Church which recognized that God is Trinity . . . ?
2-MUSHTAQ:
I have following TWELVE (12) Answers:
Answer 1: (Biblical inspiration contradicts claim of Madam Jessica)
Answer 2: (Bible & church have their own distinct role)
Answer 3: (Church selection & rejection of same sacred scriptures)
Answer 4: (Review of Biblical Books by Councils)
Answer 5: (Biblical Books Rejected by Protestants)
Answer 6: (Easter Challenge)
Answer 7: (Still in spite of contradictions and errors in 4 Gospels)
Answer 8: (Solution to Easter Challenge in light of History)
Answer 9: (Full list of 15 types of New Testament Apocrypha)
Answer 10: (Difference b/w 4 Canonical Gospels and NT Apocrypha)
Answer 11: (Same Church didn’t recognize God as Trinity)
Answer 12: (Trinitarian Christians have no basis)
3-JESSICA:
Q-3: Either Christ founded a Church which recognized His words in Scripture and His nature in the Trinity, or it did not. . . ?
3-MUSHTAQ:
I have following SEVEN (7) Answers:
Answer 1: (Logical Error of Omnipotence Paradox)
Answer 2: (Church and Bible are medium, real thing is message)
Answer 3: (Church and Bible is path)
Answer 4: (Bible and Church support each other)
Answer 5: (It is discussion going on Trinity and Scriptures)
Answer 6: (Reading Scripture is for discussion & dialogue)
Answer 7: (82% of the words of Blessed Jesus are not his)
4-JESSICA:
Q-4: Christ told in Matthew 13:10-18, disciples said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables. . . ?
4-MUSHTAQ:
I have THREE answers:
Answer 1: (Parables are stories)
Answer 2: (Parables of Matthew 13:10-18 have nothing to do with Trinity)
Answer 3: (10 commandments of Moses are not in Parables)
5-JESSICA:
Q-5: Christ wrote no book. He is the Word. He founded a Church that Church knows how to read the Book which it, itself, canonized . . . ?
5-MUSHTAQ:
I have following FIVE (5) Answers:
Answer 1: (Random style of answering disturbs continuity of dialogue)
Answer 2: (Christ founded a Church without Trinity)
Answer 3: (Trinitarian Christians misread book)
Answer 4: (For Blessed Jesus, Three days and three tents were more important than three persons of Trinity)
Answer 5: (Catholic Church was not founded by Blessed Jesus)
(Part III) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE IN SCIENCE & RELIGION
(Part IV) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE ON ISLAM VS CHRISTIANITY
END OF TOC
1-JESSICA:
This follows from Mushtaq’s detailed response and summary, which can be found here. The two previous posts in the ‘Dialogue with a Muslim friend’ can be found by following the link.
Before beginning, it is sad that Mushtaq has not responded to the questions which I asked him:
1. Did Blessed Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
2. By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
3. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
1-MUSHTAQ:
Thank you Madam Jessica for providing “Some basics in Christian Muslim Dialogue”. I liked this topic. It is a very good and important topic that you selected for discussion. Keeping in view importance of this topic, my reply to your article is just only one part of it.
My this article is divided into four main parts:
(Part I) SOME BASICS: NICE AND FRIENDLY DIALOGUE
(Part II) MY RESPONSE TO YOUR “BASICS” OF CHRISTIAN MUSLIM DIALOGUE TO SHOW THEM INCORRECT.
(Part III) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE IN SCIENCE & RELIGION
(Part IV) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE ON ISLAM VS CHRISTIANITY
(Part I) SOME BASICS: NICE AND FRIENDLY DIALOGUE:
Madam Jessica! Here I am sharing my thoughts & ideas with you how we can make our friendly dialogue a successful dialogue? i.e. It should be “Dialogue with results”, and not a “Dialogue for Dialogue”. I also invite you to share your thoughts and idea on this important issue. We both are concerned and should be concerned to move forward our dialogue in an organized manner, rather than moving in circle(s) or halt in deadlock or blockage of some parts. We need to avoid wastage of time and efforts of both of us in a dialogue without any result.
An open hearted and a friendly offer to you, that I already repeated, and now again repeat to make our dialogue fruitful, is that; Since our Dialogue is friendly, therefore, if you are unwilling to answer any thing (Summary points + my detailed answers) in our dialogue, then please don’t hesitate to tell me, I shall add it in list of pending questions to be discussed later. If you don’t do so and just ignore my Summary points OR full detailed answers (you may see that somewhere I have provided many answers marked as Answer 1, Answer 2, Answer 3 etc.) instead of replying them and also ignore your expression to add them in list of my pending questions, then it may create deadlock(s) or circle(s) in our long and complex dialogue, although our dialogue will still remain friendly, but then repetitions and duplications will begin to appear, gradually converting “Dialogue for result” into “Dialogue for Dialogue”. I shall try my best to avoid such situation with help of Summary points to keep our Dialogue well organized and creating some results. But I also need your cooperation and efforts to keep our dialogue smart and well organized. I am hopeful you will consider and think on my poor request of establishment of “List of pending Questions”.
Here, I also want to explain that purpose of Summary points is not to “ignore” original full detailed dialogue behind Summary, but Purpose of Summary is to “divide” original full detailed long complex dialogue into small dialogues with help of short Summary points. Therefore, 11 summary points in Summary #1 now call for 11 short smart swift dialogues, one dialogue in one time, until we agree conclusively on some result. Its method is, as I already told, is that you may answer Summary points, it is enough to continue Dialogue, but before writing reply of any Summary point, check original dialogue to avoid any repetition or duplication in dialogue.
Nice and friendly dialogue doesn’t mean only good manners and respecting each other in dialogue, but it also requires honesty and hard work. When people will read your replies, they will not ask how much time have you taken to reply, they will see how well have you replied? If you ignore many portions of my full detailed reply and also summary points, and then ALSO later claim to readers that you have “conclusively” answered, then it is dishonesty and avoiding hard work, something unfit for nice and friendly dialogue.
Madam Jessica! Please go and sit alone in a room and ask yourself, “Has Mushtaq not worked hard with honesty to answer each and every point raised by you? Have you yourself replied him everything in same manner?” I am not asking you to be convinced of truth of Quranic verses presented during our Dialogue, I am just requesting you to take sometime to review our dialogue to make it “Dialogue for results” and not wastage of time & effort for both of us. Experience has told me that for a happy, nice and friendly dialogue, it is VERY necessary that you reply each and every point raised (No matter how much delay), OR request other to add them in list of pending questions to be discussed later. If you don’t do so, then you deceive yourself and mislead readers. This deception and dishonesty is to be extremely avoided as we are not here to talk for temporary worldly gains, we are here to talk for Eternal Holy God.
(Part II) MY RESPONSE TO YOUR “BASICS” OF CHRISTIAN MUSLIM DIALOGUE TO SHOW THEM INCORRECT.
Now, I want to paste here the reason why I didn’t address your three questions, and the same I also posted on your blog on same day, is here as follows:-
mushtaq_tariq said: Sunday, 15 September 2013 at 5:41 pm
Madam Jessica! You wrote here:
“it is sad that Mushtaq has not responded to the questions which I asked him”
Sorry Madam Jessica! I have started work on Part 2 of our Dialogue. Do not worry! It shall not go unasnwered by me. I have not sent it to you because I sent you immediately Re: Part 1 + Summary as soon as completed. Now I am writing reply to Part 2 and also a Summary of Part 2, its reply will reach to you at the web page that you allocated for it.
In order to avoid any such misunderstanding in future, and keep our dialogue a pleasant one, I have decided to send you all responses ONCE and AT ONE Time. (It was we both were doing already when our Dialogue was small in size)
Now I answer briefly to your questions, details to be discussed later in this section (Basics) and next four articles (Early fathers, Blessed Jesus and Trinity, Holy name and other objections) that you wrote simultaneously to explain same questions.
Q-1. Did Blessed Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
Ans-1: In entire Bible (KJV), there are only three verses which mention Blessed Jesus and Book together (i) Matthew 1:1, (ii) John 20:30 and (iii) John 21:25.
Matthew and John Gospels were written after Blessed Jesus had left earth. Matthew 1:1 refer Blessed Jesus to mention book of his generation (notice how generation of God is being mentioned, which means author doesn’t understand Blessed Jesus second member of Triune God), and John 20:30 and John 21:25 claim that entire world cannot contain all the books stating all works performed by Blessed Jesus on earth. It is a confession that Bible doesn’t contain all sayings of Blessed Jesus.
Therefore, we can conclude that Blessed Jesus didn’t say he was writing a book.
In entire Bible (KJV), there are only seven verses which mention Blessed Jesus and Church together:
(i) 1 Corinthians 1:2, (ii) 2 Corinthians 1:1, (iii) Ephesians 3:21, (iv) 1 Thessalonians 1:1, (v) 1 Thessalonians 2:14, (vi) 2 Thessalonians 1:1, and (vii) Revelation 22:16.
Now these verses mention letters of Paul describing church at Corinth, church of Thessalonians, churches in Judaea, glory in the church and testify in the churches. Again we conclude that Churches were established after Blessed Jesus had left and it is Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus) is now writing letters to various Churches.
Q-2. By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
Ans-2: Old Testament was already in form of book written by various authors in different and somewhere conflicting details. New Testament was in form of oral traditions that were not compiled in form of book in times of Blessed Jesus. When various traditions were compiled in form of four gospels, then contradictions in four gospels were documented. These contradictions were just one factor for rise of Atheism in Christian countries later.
{Contradictions of Bible may be discussed later in detail.}
Q-3. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
Ans-3: Blessed Jesus said (Matt. 10:24): “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.”
Therefore, teaching of disciples of Apostles remains a subject of secondary importance. However, I have discussed it in detail and replied to your all claims in your separate article “Early Fathers”. Here it is not so good to repeat same stuff here.
Also I have said earlier in Summary # 1 of our dialogue;
“Early Church Fathers are not Superior to Blessed Jesus and Prophets”.
And I have also shown that “Early Church fathers or their saying may be heretic”, as detailed in Summary # 2.
2-JESSICA:
The reason it is a pity is that had he done so he would have begun to see that he is proceeding from the wrong basis. All of his arguments are based on his reading of a text. This is natural for a Muslim who believes that God dictated a text. This is not what Christians believe. If Mushtaq can cite me one passage from Sacred Scripture which says that Blessed Jesus is dictating a text to any one, or where Blessed Jesus says that his message is to be found in a book, then he would have some basis from which to proceed.
The answer to my first question is, of course, that Blessed Jesus founded a church. It was that Church which decided what was and was not Sacred Scripture. It was that same Church which recognized that God is Trinity. Therefore, to argue, as Mushtaq does, that the Book Canonized by the Church founded by Christ fails to understand Him and His nature, is a fundamental error in logic and methodology.
2-MUSHTAQ:
Let’s see who is in error in Logic and who is in error in Methodology; I have following TWELVE (12) Answers:
Answer 1: (Biblical inspiration contradicts claim of Madam Jessica)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 006 – Al-An’âm. Verse 91.
And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught REVEALED unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the BOOK which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.
Madam Jessica you wrote:
“God dictated a text. This is not what Christians believe”.
It is incorrect and contradicted to well known Christian belief that Holy Spirit inspired or God inspired to Bible writers. Don’t you believe Holy Spirit inspired in writing of Scriptures? If Holy Spirit has not dictated text, then how can you call Bible / New Testament / Gospels as Word of God?
“Biblical inspiration” is the doctrine in Christian theology that the authors and editors of the Bible were led or influenced by God with the result that their writings may be designated in some sense the word of God.
The Bible contains many passages in which the authors claim divine inspiration for their message, or report the effects of such inspiration on others. Besides the direct accounts of written revelation, such as Moses receiving the Ten Commandments, the Prophets of the Old Testament frequently claimed that their message was divine by the formula “Thus says the LORD” (for example, 1 Kgs 12:22–24;1 Chr 17:3–4; Jer 35:13; Ezek 2:4; Zech 7:9; etc.). The Second Epistle of Peter claims that “no prophecy of Scripture … was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Pet 1:20–21).
An exception common to all the different views of inspiration is that, although the New Testament Scriptures quote, paraphrase, and refer to other works including other New Testament documents, the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Torah into Greek, later books were translated anonymously and later included in the Septuagint), including the Apocrypha, and the Greek writers Aratus, Epimenides, Menander, and perhaps Philo, none of the various views of inspiration teach that these referenced works were also necessarily inspired, though some teach that the use and application of these other materials is inspired (or expired), in some sense.
Second Timothy 3:16-17 is cited by many Christians as evidence that “all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable …” (English Standard Version – see similar language in the King James Version and the New International Version, among others). Others offer an alternative reading for the passage, for example, theologian C. H. Dodd suggests that it “is probably to be rendered” as, “Every inspired scripture is also useful…” A similar translation has been included in the New English Bible, Revised English Bible, and as a footnoted alternative in the New Revised Standard Version.
Answer 2: (Bible & church have their own distinct role)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 039 – Az-Zumar. Verse 69.
And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the BOOK is set up, and the Prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged.
It is incorrect to claim that Bible is the only source/pillar of Christianity and it is also incorrect to claim that Church is the only source/pillar of Christianity. The correct statement is that;
“Bible and Church both are sources/pillars of Christianity, but they both have distinct role. Bible cannot play role of a Church and Church cannot play role of Bible. Take one example; If one Christian student want to read teachings of Blessed Jesus, circumstances of his era, he will read Bible and if he wants a place to worship, celebrate day of a Saint of later centuries, discuss religious matters, he will go to Church. Bible and Church cannot be separated from each other. Rejection of one is rejection of other.
Answer 3: (Church selection & rejection of same sacred scriptures)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 99.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why drive ye hack believers from the way of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, when ye are witnesses (to Allah’s guidance)? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
Madam Jessica! You wrote: “It was that Church which decided what was and was not Sacred Scripture”.
It is incomplete statement keeping in view centuries long History of Church & Scriptures. A more complete statement should be:
“It was that Church of its own time which decided what was and was not Sacred Scripture. Scriptures (of NT) were absent in lifetime of Blessed Jesus, Conflicting Scriptures were created over a period of years after Blessed Jesus left the earth, they were rejected by Church of its own time, later same were accepted by Church of its own time as Sacred Scriptures and then again same Sacred Scriptures were rejected by Church of its own time as false man made lie”.
Your statement ignores the time factor, Church took centuries in rejecting many Scriptures, then gradually accepting again and then rejecting same as “Sacred Scriptures”. Thus there were generations of Christians who considered certain books as “fake scripture” and later generations considered them Holy. After few centuries same Scriptures became rejected and corrupted not by same Church, but Church of its own time not founded by Blessed Jesus. How can you claim that it is the Church which understands Blessed Jesus well?
Answer 4: (Review of Biblical Books by Councils)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 99.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why drive ye hack believers from the way of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, when ye are witnesses (to Allah’s guidance)? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
It is important to note that in 325 a great conference of Christian theologians and
religious scholars was convened in the city of Nicaea under the order of the Emperor
Constantine to examine and define the status of these books. After thorough investigation it was decided that the Epistle of Jude was genuine and believable. The rest of these books were declared doubtful. This was explicitly mentioned by Jerome in his introduction to his book.
Another church council was held in 364 in Liodicia for the same purpose. This conference of Christian scholars and theologians not only confirmed the decision of the council of Nicaea regarding the authenticity of the Epistle of Jude but also declared that the following six books must also be added to the list of genuine and believable books: The book of Esther, The Epistle Of James, The Second Epistle of Peter, The Second and Third Epistles of John, The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews. This conference pronounced their decision to the public. The book of Revelations, however, remained out of the list of the acknowledged books in both the councils.
In 397 another great conference was held called the Council of Carthage. Augustine, the great Christian scholar, was among the one hundred and twenty six learned participants. The members of this council confirmed the decisions of the two previous Councils and also added the following books to the list of the divine books : The Book of the Songs of Solomon, The Book of Tobit, The Book of Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, The First and Second Books of Maccabees. At the same time the members of this council decided that the book of Baruch was a part of the book of Jeremiah because Baruch was the deputy of Jeremiah. Therefore they did not include the name of this book separately in the list.
Three more conferences were held after this in Trullo, Florence and Trent. The members of these meetings confirmed the decision of the Council of Carthage. The last two councils, however, wrote the name of the book of Baruch separately.
After these councils nearly all the books which had been doubtful among Christians were included in the list of acknowledged books.
Answer 5: (Biblical Books Rejected by Protestants)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 99.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why drive ye hack believers from the way of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, when ye are witnesses (to Allah’s guidance)? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
The status of these books remained unchanged for over a thousand years (> 1000 years) until the Protestant Reformation. The Protestants repudiated the decisions of the councils and declared that the following books were essentially to be rejected: The Book of Baruch, The Book of Tobit, The Letter of Jude, The song of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, The First and Second Books of Maccabees.
They excluded these books from the list of acknowledged books.
Moreover, the Protestants also rejected the decision of their forbears regarding some
chapters of the book of Esther. This book consists of 16 chapters. They decided that the first nine chapters and three verses from chapter 10 were essentially to be rejected.
They based their decision on the following six reasons:
1 These works were considered to be false even in the original Hebrew and Chaldaean languages which were no longer available.
2 The Jews did not acknowledge them as revealed books.
3 All the Christians have not acknowledged them as believable.
4 Jerome said that these books were not reliable and were insufficient to prove and support the doctrines of the faith.
5 Klaus has openly said that these books were recited but not in every place.
6 Eusebius specifically said in chapter 22 of his fourth book that these books have been tampered with, and changed .In particular the Second book of Maccabees.
Reasons Nos. 1, 2, and 6 are particularly to be noted by the readers as self-sufficient evidence of the dishonesty and perjury of the earlier Christians. Books which had been lost in the original and which only existed in translation were erroneously acknowledged by thousands of theologians as divine revelation. This state of affairs leads a non-Christian reader to distrust the unanimous decisions of Christian scholars of both the Catholic and the Protestant persuasions. The followers of Catholic faith still believe in these books in blind pursuance of their forebears.
It is a prerequisite of believing in a certain book as divinely revealed that it is proved through infallible arguments that the book in question was revealed through a prophet and that it has been conveyed to us precisely in the same order without any change through an uninterrupted chain of narrators. It is not at all sufficient to attribute a book to a certain prophet on the basis of suppositions and conjectures. Unsupported assertions made by one or a few sects of people should not be, and cannot be, accepted in this connection.
We have already seen how Catholic and Protestant scholars differ on the question of the authenticity of certain of these Biblical books. There are yet more books of the Bible which have been rejected by Christians. They include the Book of Revelation, the Book of Genesis, the Book of Ascension, the Book of Mysteries, the Book of Testament and the Book of Confession which are all ascribed to the Prophet Moses. Similarly a fourth Book of Ezra is claimed to be from the Prophet Ezra and a book concerning Isaiah’s ascension and revelation are ascribed to him. In addition to the known book of Jeremiah, there is another book attributed to him. There are numerous sayings which are claimed to be from the Prophet Habakkuk. There are many songs which are said to be from the Prophet Solomon. There more than 70 books, other than the present ones, of the new Testament, which are ascribed to Blessed Jesus, Mary, the apostles and their disciples.
The Christians of this age have claimed that these books are false and are forgeries. The Greek Church, Catholic church and the Protestant Church are unanimous on this point. Similarly the Greek Church claims that the third book of Ezra is a part of the Old
Testament and believes it to have been written by the Prophet Ezra, while the Protestant and Catholic Churches have declared it false and fabricated. We have already seen the controversy of the Catholics and Protestants regarding the books of Baruch, Tobit, Jude, the Song of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus and both the books of Maccabees. A part of the book of Esther is believable to the Catholics but essentially rejected by the Protestants.
In this kind of situation it seems absurd and beyond the bounds of reason to accept and acknowledge a book simply for the reason that it has been ascribed to a prophet by a group of scholars without concrete support. Many times we (Muslims) have demanded renowned Christian scholars to produce the names of the whole chain of narrators right from the author of the book to prove their claim but they were unable to so. At a public debate held in India, one of the famous missionaries confessed to the truth that the absence of authoritative support for those books was due to the distress and calamities of the Christians in the first three hundred and thirteen years of their history. We (Author: Rehmat Allah Keranvi) ourselves examined and probed into their books and took great pains to find any such authorities but our findings did not lead beyond conjecture and presumption. Our impartial search in the sources of their books showed that most of their assertions are based on nothing but presumptions.
It has already been said that presumption and conjecture are of no avail in this matter. It would be quite justified on our part if we refused to believe in these books until we had been given some arguments and authorities to prove their genuineness and authenticity.
However, for the sake of truth, we (Muslims) still go forward to discuss and examine the authority of these books… It is quite unnecessary to discuss the authority of each and every book of the Bible and we (Muslims) intend to examine only some of them.
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Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
Answer 6: (Easter Challenge)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 70-71
O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when ye (yourselves) bear witness (to theft truth ) ? O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why confound ye truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?
Few examples of Conflicting Gospels can convert a Christian Missionary into an Atheist (provided Missionary has mental power to understand meaning of these contradictions).
Dan Barker (born 1949) is a prominent American atheist activist who served as a Christian preacher and musician for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. Barker, along with his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor, is the current co-president of the “Freedom From Religion Foundation”. He has written numerous articles for “Free thought Today”, an American free thought newspaper. He is the author of several books including “Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist”. In this book, at Chapter 24 “Leave No Stone Unturned”, he presents an interesting Easter Challenge for Christians:
I HAVE AN EASTER CHALLENGE for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.
Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.” (I Corinthians 15:14-15)
The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul’s tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.
Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture—it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate at the University of Wisconsin, “Blessed Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or Myth,” a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have never heard fromhim. Both of these people, and others, agreed that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow readers…
But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let’s leave the Blessed Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named.
Here are some of the discrepancies (17 Questions) among the resurrection accounts:
Q-1: WHAT TIME DID THE WOMEN VISIT THE TOMB?
Matthew: “as it began to dawn” (28:1)
Mark: “very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun” (16:2, KJV); “when the sun had risen” (NRSV); “just after sunrise” (NIV)
Luke: “very early in the morning” (24:1, KJV) “at early dawn” (NRSV)
John: “when it was yet dark” (20:1)
Q-2: WHO WERE THE WOMEN?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women
(24:10)
John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
Q-3: WHAT WAS THEIR PURPOSE?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
Q-4: WAS THE TOMB OPEN WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matthew: No (28:2)
Mark: Yes (16:4)
Luke: Yes (24:2)
John: Yes (20:1)
Q-5: WHO WAS AT THE TOMB WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
Mark: One young man (16:5)
Luke: Two men (24:4)
John: Two angels (20:12)
Q-6: WHERE WERE THESE MESSENGERS SITUATED?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
Q-7: WHAT DID THE MESSENGER(S) SAY?
Matthew: “Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Blessed Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.” (28:5-7)
Mark: “Be not afrighted: Ye seek Blessed Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.” (16:6-7)
Luke: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.” (24:5-7)
John: “Woman, why weepest thou?” (20:13)
Q-8: DID THE WOMEN TELL WHAT HAPPENED?
Matthew: Yes (28:8)
Mark: No. “Neither said they any thing to any man.” (16:8)
Luke: Yes. “And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest.” (24:9, 22-24)
John: Yes (20:18)
Q-9: WHEN MARY RETURNED FROM THE TOMB, DID SHE KNOW BLESSED JESUS HAD BEEN RESURRECTED?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
John: No (20:2)
Q-10: WHEN DID MARY FIRST SEE BLESSED JESUS?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
Q-11: COULD BLESSED JESUS BE TOUCHED AFTER THE RESURRECTION?
Matthew: Yes (28:9)
John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
Q-12: AFTER THE WOMEN, TO WHOM DID BLESSED JESUS FIRST APPEAR?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I
Corinthians 15:5)
Q-13: WHERE DID BLESSED JESUS FIRST APPEAR TO THE DISCIPLES?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
Mark: To two in the country, to eleven “as they sat at meat” (16:12,14)
Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in
Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
Q-14: DID THE DISCIPLES BELIEVE THE TWO MEN?
Mark: No (16:13)
Luke: Yes (24:34–it is the group speaking here, not the two)
Q-15: WHAT HAPPENED AT THE APPEARANCE?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, “Go preach.” (28:17-20)
Mark: Blessed Jesus reprimanded them, said “Go preach” (16:14-19)
Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Blessed Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
Q-16: DID BLESSED JESUS STAY ON EARTH FOR A WHILE?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday.
Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
Q-17: WHERE DID THE ASCENSION TAKE PLACE?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
John: No ascension
Paul: No ascension
Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
This first appeared in Free thought Today, March 1990 (Still unanswered after 23 years)
Online Reference: http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=stone
{Note: Still there are lots of more contradictions in New Testament and Old Testament, but these are not being presented here to shorten discussion}
Answer 7: (Still in spite of contradictions and errors in 4 Gospels)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 004 – An-Nisâ. Verse 115.
And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer’s way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto HELL a hapless journey’s end!
Above in Answer 4: “Review of Biblical Books by Councils” & Answer 5: “Biblical Books Rejected by Protestants”, we saw that due to absence of Historical record and historical errors, many biblical books were rejected by Protestant Church. In Answer 6 “Easter Challenge”, we saw that current biblical books agreed by both Catholic and Protestant Churches still contain errors and contradictions. Therefore, it would be quite justified on our part if we refused to believe in these current Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) books until we had been given some solution to Easter Challenge or contradictions and errors in four Gospels. However, for the sake of truth, we (Muslims) still go forward to discuss and examine the authority of these books and discuss Christianity and Islam including these four Gospels.
Answer 8: (Solution to Easter Challenge in light of History)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 179.
Already have We urged unto HELL many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.
How can Church answer Easter Challenge (as stated above in Answer 6)? Let’s get interesting example of Arius from History how Church solved such types of challenge?
In fourth century, when Arius argued and delivered hot speeches to intensify decades old Christian debate that Father is greater than Son in age (a threat to Trinity), then a storm rose in Christian World, Roman emperor Constantine called a Christian Council at Nicaea in 325 AD. In this council, Arius appealed to Scripture, quoting verses such as John 14:28: Blessed Jesus said “the Father is greater than I”. Arius insisted that the Father’s Divinity was greater than the Son’s, and that the Son was under God the Father, and not co-equal or co-eternal with Him. Athanasius argued that although Father has begotten son (to beget is a verb which shows an action that occurred in past), in spite of this, father and son are equal in age in Trinity. Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine liked this argument, therefore; rest of the Christians also accepted that father and son are equal in age. Arius was beaten in Council, declared heretic and expelled not only from Church but also from Country. Arius was later poisoned by Athanasius. Followers of Arius, who were claiming father is greater than son in age, were condemned as heretic throughout Christian world for fear of cruel terrorist roman emperor Constantine who had killed his own Son Crispus and his mother Fausta. Constantine had made it an imperial law to accept the Creed of Nicaea. He was a pagan emperor and at the time cared little if such a doctrine contradicted the teachings of Blessed Jesus (pbuh) and the centuries of prophets of God before him who had suffered severe hardship in order to preach a monotheistic God to their people as can be seen in the Old Testament to this day (Hear O Israel, Lord our God is one Lord, Thou shall take no God except one etc). Later Trinitarian Christians also convinced Roman emperor to invade the ‘Arian’, or nontrinitarian Christian churches in Europe and North Africa, to suppress Arius teaching by military conquest. Thus that Nicean Council’s decision became official faith of Christian world, now a day known as Nicean Creed. In this creed, all three members in Triune God are co-equal, co-eternal and same substance. It is well known as Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God.
Ironically, Constantine embraced the beliefs of the Arians, was baptized on his death bed in 337 by an Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia and died shortly thereafter. In other words, he (first Christian emperor of the World) died a believer as Unitarian Christian and teachings of the Arians and not the new Trinitarian beliefs of Athanasius. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre (purported site of Blessed Jesus’ tomb) and Church of Nativity (Blessed Jesus birthplace) built on orders of Constantine, became the holiest place & most important Christian pilgrimage destination since at least the 4th century. Therefore, these holiest Churches in the world were established first by a Unitarian Christian Emperor and not a Trinitarian Christian. Unitarian Constantine is venerated as a saint by Trinitarian Orthodox Christians, Byzantine Catholics, and Trinitarian Anglicans. The Eastern churches hold his memory in particular esteem, regarding Unitarian Constantine as isapostolos or equal to the Apostles. It is another proof in favor of one of my Summary point that; “Unitarian Christians are not heretics.”
We see above in Answer 4 (Review of Biblical Books by Councils), Answer 5 (Biblical Books Rejected by Protestants) that solution to Crisis to Christianity, Trinity or Biblical books is in councils who are even more powerful than Blessed Jesus & his disciples to even define basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God}.
Therefore, Keeping in view this trend or fashion of Councils in Church History, the only solution to “Easter Challenge” (proposed by Dan Barker) is to immediately call a Christian Council. Now Church can follow either partially or fully methodology of solution to Arius Challenge to solve Easter Challenge. If Church decides to follow solution of method of Arius Challenge (that also yielded definition of Trinity), then Curch will adopt following procedure:
A non Christian or still unbaptized (Constantine was also unbaptized) will be elected to preside Christian Council e.g. President of Sri Lanka, President of China, President or Mongolia etc. who ever is available. In council, Christian priests and scholars may discuss with each other 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. After hearing arguments, the final decision authority to declare any three gospels as “Apocrypha” (A term used for Biblical books that are of dubious authenticity or man made fabrication) will be the Non Christian or Unbaptized President of Sri Lanka, China, Mongolia etc.
Many years after end of Council, Non Christian president after retirement from Presidentship and politics, will be baptized by Non Trinitarian Christian bishop (Unitarian Christian) and after his death, he will be venerated as a saint by Trinitarian Churches.
If the above motioned method is not acceptable method to declare any three gospels as “Apocrypha”, then how did Church of 4th century got right to follow this methodology? To decide Christian theology issues from unbaptized and non-Christians?
When there will be only one truly divine inspired Gospel, then Easter Challenge will be solved and perhaps Dan Barker and his fellow Atheists (probably former Christian missionaries) may resume Christianity.
NOTE: Many Christians are unaware of powerful storm fought in Christian World on Trinity killing question “Is Father greater than Son in age?”, so a brief biography of Arius and his killer & enemy Athanasius is interesting & useful and thus given below:
Arius (250–336) was an ascetic North African Christian presbyter and priest in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, who was of Libyan origins. His teachings about the nature of the Godhead, which emphasized the Father’s divinity over the Son, and his opposition to Trinitarian Christology, made him a primary topic of the First Council of Nicea, convened by Roman Emperor Constantine in AD 325.
After Emperor Licinius and Emperor Constantine legalized and formalized the Christianity of the time in the Roman Empire, the newly recognized Catholic Church sought to unify and clarify its theology. Trinitarian Christians, including Athanasius, used Arius and Arianism as epithets to describe those who disagreed with their doctrine of co-equal Trinitarianism, a Christology representing God the Father and Son (Blessed Jesus of Nazareth) as “of one essence” (consubstantial) and coeternal.
Although virtually all positive writings on Arius’ theology have been suppressed or destroyed, negative writings describe Arius’ theology as one in which there was a time before the Son of God, when only God the Father existed. Despite concerted opposition, ‘Arian’, or nontrinitarian Christian churches persisted throughout Europe and North Africa, in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms, until suppressed by military conquest or voluntary royal conversion between the fifth and seventh centuries.
Although “Arianism” suggests that Arius was the originator of the teaching that bears his name, the debate over the Son’s precise relationship to the Father did not begin with him. This subject had been discussed for decades before his advent; Arius merely intensified the controversy and carried it to a Church-wide audience, where other “Arians” such as Eusebius of Nicomedia would prove much more influential in the long run. However, because the conflict between Arius and his foes brought the issue to the theological forefront, the doctrine he proclaimed—though not originated by him—is generally labeled as “his”.
Athanasius of Alexandria (296-373), also referred to as St. Athanasius the Great, St. Athanasius I of Alexandria, St Athanasius the Confessor and (primarily in the Coptic Orthodox Church) St Athanasius the Apostolic, was the 20th bishop of Alexandria. His episcopate lasted 45 years. He is considered to be a renowned Christian theologian, a Church Father, the chief defender of Trinitarianism against Arianism, and a noted Egyptian leader of the fourth century.
He is remembered for his role in the conflict with Arius and Arianism. In 325, at the age of 27, Athanasius had a leading role against the Arians in the First Council of Nicaea. At the time, he was a deacon and personal secretary of the 19th Bishop of Alexandria, Alexander. Nicaea was convoked by Constantine I in May–August 325 to address the Arian position that Father is greater Son in age.
In June 328, at the age of 30, three years after Nicæa and upon the repose of Bishop Alexander, he became archbishop of Alexandria. He continued to lead the conflict against the Arians for the rest of his life and was engaged in theological and political struggles against the Emperors Constantine the Great and Constantius II and powerful and influential Arian churchmen, led by Eusebius of Nicomedia and others. He was known as “Athanasius Contra Mundum”. Within a few years of his departure, St. Gregory of Nazianzus called him the “Pillar of the Church”. His writings were well regarded by all Church fathers who followed, in both the West and the East. His writings show a rich devotion to the belief that father and son are equal in age in Trinity.
Athanasius is counted as one of the four great Eastern Doctors of the Church in the Roman Catholic Church and in Eastern Orthodoxy, he is labeled the “Father of Orthodoxy”. He is also celebrated by many Protestants, who label him “Father of The Canon”. Athanasius is venerated as a Christian saint. He is venerated by the Roman Catholic Church, Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches, the Lutherans, and the Anglican Communion.
Answer 9: (Full list of 15 types of New Testament Apocrypha)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 68.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
The New Testament Apocrypha are a number of writings by early Christians that claim to be accounts of Blessed Jesus and his teachings, the nature of God, or the teachings of his apostles and of their lives. These writings often have links with the books generally regarded as “canonical” but Christian denominations disagree on which writings should be regarded as “canonical” and which are “apocryphal”.
The full list and types of New Testament apocrypha is as follows:
1-INFANCY GOSPELS:
Infancy Gospel of James
Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
Syriac Infancy Gospel
History of Joseph the Carpenter
and the Life of John the Baptist.
2-JEWISH CHRISTIAN GOSPELS
Gospel of the Ebionites – 7 quotes cited, all by Epiphanius
Gospel of the Hebrews – 7 quotes survive, six of them by Jerome
Gospel of the Nazarenes – 30 quotes survive in works by Jerome and Origen
3-NON-CANONICAL GOSPELS
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd – early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
4-SAYINGS GOSPELS
Gospel of Thomas
5-PASSION GOSPELS
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the “Acts of Pilate”)
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem on the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Blessed Jesus Christ (which claims to be according to Bartholomew)
6-HARMONIZED GOSPELS
Diatessaron.
7-GNOSTIC TEXTS
7a-DIALOGUES WITH BLESSED JESUS
Apocryphon of James (also called the “Secret Book of James”)
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the “Gospel of Judas Iscariot”)
Gospel of Mary (also called the “Gospel of Mary Magdalene”)
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Blessed Jesus Christ
7b-GENERAL TEXTS CONCERNING BLESSED JESUS
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
7c-SETHIAN TEXTS CONCERNING BLESSED JESUS
Apocryphon of John (also called the “Secret Gospel of John”)
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
7d-Ritual diagrams
Ophite Diagrams
Books of Jeu
8-ACTS
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
9-EPISTLES
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians – accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
10-APOCALYPSES
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
11-FATE OF MARY
The Home Going of Mary
The Falling asleep of the Mother of God
The Descent of Mary
12-MISCELLANY
Apostolic Constitutions (church regulations supposedly asserted by the apostles)
Book of Nepos
Canons of the Apostles
Cave of Treasures (also called The Treasure)
Clementine literature
Didache (possibly the first written catechism)
Liturgy of St James
Penitence of Origen
Prayer of Paul
Sentences of Sextus
Physiologus
Book of the Bee
13-FRAGMENTS
The Unknown Berlin Gospel (also called the Gospel of the Saviour)
The Naassene Fragment
The Fayyum Fragment
The Secret Gospel of Mark
The Oxyrhynchus Gospels
The Egerton Gospel
The Gospel of Blessed Jesus’ Wife
14-LOST WORKS
Gospel of Eve (a quotation from this gospel is given by Epiphanius (Haer. xxvi. 2, 3). It is possible that this is the Gospel of Perfection he alludes to in xxvi. 2. The quotation shows that this gospel was the expression of complete pantheism)
Gospel of the Four Heavenly Realms
Gospel of Matthias (probably different from the Gospel of Matthew)
Gospel of Perfection (used by the followers of Basilides and other Gnostics. See Epiphanius, Haer. xxvi. 2)
Gospel of the Seventy
Gospel of Thaddaeus (this may be a synonym for the Gospel of Judas, confusing Judas Iscariot for Judas Thaddaeus)
Gospel of the Twelve
Memoria Apostolorum
15-CLOSE CANDIDATES FOR CANONIZATION
1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
The Protevangelium of James
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
EVALUATION
Among historians of early Christianity the books are considered invaluable, especially those that almost made it into the final canon, such as Shepherd of Hermas. Bart Ehrman, for example, said:
The victors in the struggles to establish Christian Orthodoxy not only won their theological battles, they also rewrote the history of the conflict; later readers then naturally assumed that the victorious views had been embraced by the vast majority of Christians from the very beginning … The practice of Christian forgery has a long and distinguished history … the debate lasted three hundred years … even within “orthodox” circles there was considerable debate concerning which books to include.
This debate primarily concerned whether certain works should be read in the church service or only privately. These works were widely used but not necessarily considered Catholic or ‘universal.’ Such works include the Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, and to a lesser extent the Apocalypse of Peter. Considering the generally accepted dates of authorship for all of the canonical New Testament works (ca. 100 AD), as well as the various witnesses to canonicity extant among the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, etc., the four gospels and letters of Paul were universally held as scriptural, and 200 years were needed to finalize the canon; from the beginning of the 2nd Century to the mid-4th Century, no book in the final canon was ever declared spurious or heretical, except for the Revelation of John which the Council of Laodicea in 363-364 AD rejected (although it accepted all of the other 26 books in the New Testament). This was possibly due to fears of the influence of Montanism which used the book extensively to support their theology. See Revelation of John for more details. Athanasius wrote his Easter letter in 367 AD which defined a canon of 27 books, identical to the current canon, but also listed two works that were “not in the canon but to be read:” The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. Nevertheless, the early church leaders in the 3rd and 4th Centuries generally distinguished between canonical works and those that were not canonical but ‘useful,’ or ‘good for teaching,’ though never relegating any of the final 27 books to the latter category. One aim with establishing the canon was to capture only those works which were held to have been written by the Apostles, or their close associates, and as the Muratorian fragment canon (ca. 150-175 AD) states concerning the Shepherd of Hermas:
…But Hermas wrote The Shepherd very recently, in our times, in the city of Rome, while bishop Pius, his brother, was occupying the chair of the church of the city of Rome. And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it cannot be read publicly to the people in church either among the Prophets, whose number is complete, or among the Apostles, for it is after their time.
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Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
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PART 3 OF 4
Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
Answer 10: (Difference b/w 4 Canonical Gospels and NT Apocrypha)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 109.
Many of the People of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. FORGIVE and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
Above in Answer 4: “Review of Biblical Books by Councils” & Answer 5: “Biblical Books Rejected by Protestants”, we saw that due to absence of Historical record and historical errors, many biblical books were rejected by Protestant Church. In Answer 6 “Easter Challenge”, we saw that 4 canonical Gospels agreed by Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Churches still contain errors and contradictions.
In Answer 9, we examined 15 major types of New Testament Apocrypha. Now an important question is; what is difference between “Divine inspired Gospel” and “Man made fabrications “Apocrypha”? If 4 Canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) contain errors and contradictions, then what makes them better than rejected NT Apocrypha?
Answer is that current four canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) put together are no more greater in worth than New Testament Apocrypha, dozens of which were forged by Christians as “God inspired” books (Just like Trinity was forged as Inspired). These dozens of “inspired” books of their times have been listed above in Answer 9. It is certain that Church has made serious mistake in identifying true words of Blessed Jesus and God. Church has picked Apocrypha level books as “Canonical gospel” and after already rejecting New Testament Apocrypha, now Church has no Gospel truly divine inspired. Church has Old Testament, but we see that Trinity doesn’t exist there; Father in Old Testament is Creator, not first member of Triune God.
The only book in the world which now Church can believe as true Word of God is Holy Quran.
No wonder, if Protestant Apocrypha ruled over entire Christian World for over 1000 years in disguise of “Holy inspired books”, therefore, no wonder if 100 years later or few centuries later, any 3 Gospels of modern Canonical Gospels will have become “Apocrypha” to resist Atheism and stop possible conversion of Christian missionaries into Atheists.
Answer 11: (Same Church didn’t recognize God as Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 012 – Yûsuf. Verse 106.
And most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute PARTNERs (unto Him).
You wrote: “It was that same Church which recognized that God is Trinity”.
Are you talking about the Church which has made serious errors in identifying word of God as shown in Easter Challenge? How can you claim that such Church is able to recognize Concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God} ?
Are you talking about the Church of fourth Century which forged basic requirement of salvation, the concept of God {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God} or talking about Church of first century which was unaware of term Trinity or number three (3) in persons of Godhead, or talking about Church of Blessed Jesus times which never hear and speak basic requirement of salvation concept of God {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God}
Your claim: “It was that same Church which recognized that God is Trinity” needs some modifications to reveal truth:
“It was the Church of 4th Century where Arius and Athanasius, two greatest theologians of their times fought on Trinity, the final approval authority was not a Christian, but a pagan Emperor which baptized on his death bed by Arian Priest as a Unitarian Christian and thus defying Trinity and Trinitarian Christians.
Answer 12: (Trinitarian Christians have no basis)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 017 – Al-Isrâ. Verse 111.
And say: Praise be to Allah, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no PARTNER in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence. And magnify Him with all magnificence.
If Madam Jessica can cite me one passage from Sacred Scripture which says basic requirement of salvation as understood by Trinitarian Christians i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, there are not three gods, but one full and complete God), three persons, OR that Blessed Jesus is telling Father is first member of Triune God, OR Son is second member of Triune God or Holy Spirit is third member of Triune God, or Behold, God has THREE persons etc. then she would have some basis as a Trinitarian Christian from which to proceed.
She has not such Trinitarian bases, We are not discussing History of Church or History of Bible, We are discussing Trinity, therefore, her argument to divert Trinity question to centuries long History of Church is in fact her effort to change topic of discussion, it is an indirect confession of her to retreat from discussion on Trinity, since there are no words of Blessed Jesus supporting her on number THREE (3) and she is standing alone in the field of Holy Scriptures without any help, so she wants to hide behind centuries long History of Church and throwing away Trinity, three (3) persons unknown to Blessed Jesus.
3-JESSICA:
Either Christ founded a Church which recognized His words in Scripture and His nature in the Trinity, or it did not. If it did not, then there is no point quoting from Scripture as it means nothing as Christ is not who His Church says He is. If He did, then to say that His Church could recognize the Books and not know how to read them is foolish. It is those who are outside Christ’s Church who do not know how to read His words.
3-MUSHTAQ:
I have following SEVEN (7) Answers:
Answer 1: (Logical Error of Omnipotence Paradox)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 16.
These are they who purchase ERROR at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.
In the world of Logic, your argument is of the type “omnipotence paradox” and cannot produce correct answer. Let’s see what it is with an example first:
The omnipotence paradox is a family of semantic paradoxes which address two issues: Is an omnipotent entity logically possible? and What do we mean by ‘omnipotence’?. The paradox states that: if a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.
One version of the omnipotence paradox is the so-called paradox of the stone: “Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?” If he could lift the rock, then it seems that the being would not have been omnipotent to begin with in that he would have been incapable of creating a heavy enough stone; if he could not lift the stone, then it seems that the being either would never have been omnipotent to begin with or would have ceased to be omnipotent upon his creation of the stone.
The argument is medieval, dating at least to the 12th century, addressed by Averroës (1126–1198) and later by Thomas Aquinas. Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite (before 532) has a predecessor version of the paradox, asking whether it is possible for God to “deny himself”.
Can God make a rock so big He can’t pick it up? {This question was also cited in Stephen William Hawking’ s best seller book (English theoretical physicist, cosmologist, author and Director of Research at the Centre for Theoretical Cosmology within the University of Cambridge) “A brief History of Time”}
Is this logical? A little. However, the problem is that this bit of “logic” omits some crucial information. Therefore, its conclusion is inaccurate.
What the above “paradox” lacks is vital information concerning God’s nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature. It is linked to his nature. God has a nature and His attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run, but I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it. Therefore, God can only do those things that are consistent with His nature. He cannot lie because it is against His nature to do so. Not being able to lie does not mean He is not God or that He is not all powerful. Also, He cannot cease to be God.
In other words, the paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that’s possible according to his nature. God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being.
Since here I am to deal with your question, therefore, I stop this introductory example of this paradox here. Here it is just introduction to show that your question is similar to “omnipotence paradox” and its conclusion is inaccurate.
Your point is:
Either Christ founded a Church which recognized His words in Scripture and His nature in the Trinity, or it did not.
The problem is that your “logic” omits some crucial information about Church; therefore, its conclusion is inaccurate. Your question ignores nature of Church and imposes a wrong condition that Christ founded such a Church. Which Church? Is it that Church which gas made serious errors in identifying 4 canonical gospels out of dozens of NT Apocrypha as proved by Easter Challenge? If you consider only time factor, then Did Blessed Jesus found Church of his own time which never speak and hear Trinity, its definition (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, there are not three gods, but one full and complete God), three persons, Triune God etc? (Church of Blessed Jesus times used Father in meanings of Creator and there is not even a single verse in which Blessed Jesus claimed that Father is first member of Triune God or first person of Trinity.) Or Church of fourth century which invented all these stuff (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, there are not three gods, but one full and complete God) as basic requirement of salvation? Or Church of 11th Century split by Great Schism 1054? Or Church suffered by Protestant Reformation in 16th Century and rejected many Biblical books as man made lie? Which is the Church that was founded by Blessed Jesus? Or was it not Catholic but Armenian Church, the first official Christian Church of the world? Of course it was that Church of Blessed Jesus times which now has split into so many forms that none of the modern form of Church was founded by Blessed Jesus. But your question ignores this nature of Church and therefore leads to incorrect conclusion, as shown in question of God picking heavy stone, ignores nature of God and therefore leads to inaccurate conclusion in case of both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ as answer. Muslims accept that Church in the lifetime of Blessed Jesus understood his teachings well, but later corruptions have damaged a lot original teachings of Blessed Jesus. So Today’s Church is not exactly same Church founded by Blessed Jesus keeping in view basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, there are not three gods, but one full and complete God, never spoken and heard by Prophets and Blessed Jesus.
Answer 2: (Church and Bible are medium, real thing is message)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 93.
So he turned from them and said: O my people! I delivered my Lord’s MESSAGES unto you and gave you good advice; then how can I sorrow for a people that rejected (truth)?
Church and Bible are medium, real thing is message. Therefore, Discussion on medium is secondary, primary is message. Take example, Blessed Jesus didn’t ask to use Email, fax or blog posts to spread his message. In a Christian Muslim Dialogue, no one will focus on medium, because purpose is to discuss message of Blessed Jesus, not the medium by which it is coming. Similarly, if message of Blessed Jesus comes by Bible or comes by Church, it makes no difference to Christian Muslim Dialogue. Whatever is the message, it will be discussed, analyzed, checked for logical, historical errors, internal contradictions etc.
Answer 3: (Church and Bible is path)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 68.
I convey unto you the MESSAGEs of my Lord and am for you a true adviser.
Church and Bible is path, or vehicle, real thing is destination which is Blessed Jesus and God. Take example, Christians go to pilgrimage to Land of Blessed Jesus Palestine or Israel by Aircraft, Hindus go to Pilgrimage in Land of Hinduism India by Aircraft. Muslims go to Holy Land of Islam Saudi Arabia to perform annual pilgrimage (Hajj) by Aircraft. Centuries ago, there were no aircraft and people used to go to their Holy Lands for pilgrimage by camel, horse or by ship. Now they go by Aircraft, but no one calls use of Aircraft a Heresy, why? Because Aircraft is merely a means, a vehicle to reach destination, travel till Holy Land in itself is not objective, but objective is the pilgrimage at Holy Land.
Similarly, Bible and Church both are vehicles, means to reach message of Blessed Jesus. Whether this message is correct or incorrect, it is a separate discussion. But you cannot say that only Church is permitted medium and Bible is nothing or that Bible is the only permitted medium and Church is nothing.
Answer 4: (Bible and Church support each other)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 006 – Al-An’âm. Verse 106.
Follow that which is inspired in thee from thy Lord; there is no GOD save Him; and turn away from the idolaters.
Here I give you more clarification by this simple & easy question;
Do Bible and Church support each other?
If yes, then your question is pointless, as reading Bible means what Church believes. If no, then contradiction is enough to reject one of them, and rejection of one will also result in rejection of other.
Answer 5: (It is discussion going on Trinity and Scriptures)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 73.
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no GOD save the One GOD. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
You asked:
Did Christ found a Church to recognize His words in Scripture and His nature in the Trinity?
This is in fact not at all single question, but a sum of two questions. We can identify two totally different questions in your complex question as follows:
Q-1: Did Christ found a Church to recognize His words in Scripture?
Q-2: Did Christ found a Church to recognize His nature in the Trinity?
Remarks: Scripture and Trinity are not same, two different things. Discussion on scripture has totally different scope than a mere discussion on Trinity. Unitarian and Trinitarian Christians both believe in Scriptures, but both don’t believe in Trinity. It is appropriate to split your complex question into two simple questions as shown above. Our entire discussion is going on Trinity and Scriptures.
Answer 6: (Reading Scripture is for discussion & dialogue)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 009 – At-Taubah. Verse 129.
Now, if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no GOD save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.
You wrote: “It is those who are outside Christ’s Church who do not know how to read His words”.
In the context of Christian Muslim Dialogue, it should be rewritten as:
“Those who are outside Christ’s Church can read the Scripture and can discuss meanings with those who claim to be Christians and claim how to read His words, to let them prove that they understand what did Blessed Jesus really say?”
Still if you disagree with my interpretation, then your point asserts that coming inside Church (to be a Christian) is a pre-requisite of Christian Muslim Dialogue? These are no bases of Christian Muslim Dialogue, but the destruction and end of Dialogue because fulfilling it will mean Christian-Christian Dialogue. Take example, If you start a Hindu-Christian Dialogue and put first condition to start Dialogue is that Hindu to Come inside Church first (Be a Christian), then Will Hindu start a dialogue? Answer is No. Take another example, if you are to start a Dialogue to decide price of milk from a shop and first condition you impose, that I shall buy milk first at my own price, after payment and drinking milk, and then we shall discuss how much price of milk should be? Will shopkeeper entertain you? Or any shopkeeper will allow you to do so? Answer is No!
So your statement is incorrect in context of a Dialogue. It is no “bases” for Christian Muslim Dialogue. Bases must be some such which should be encouraging starting point of Christian Muslim Dialogue, the “bases” of Dialogue as proposed by you are discouraging to dialogue as they demand to surrender first (Be Christian and come inside Church to learn first) without discussion.
Answer 7: (82% of the words of Blessed Jesus are not his)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 009 – At-Taubah. Verse 31.
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One GOD. There is no GOD save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
Did Christ found a Church to recognize His words in Scripture? Answer is No. Details are as follows:
82% of the words of Blessed Jesus are not his:
Book Title: The Five Gospels: What Did Blessed Jesus Really Say? The Search for the Authentic Words of Blessed Jesus
Book Author: Robert W. Funk, Roy W Hoover & the Blessed Jesus Seminar
Book Publisher: Maxwell Macmillan International, New York, Oxford, Singapore, Sydney.
“The Five Gospels,” is a 550 page book containing translations of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It was the result of a six year study by 24 Christian scholars from a number of Western Universities. They decided to produce a translation of the Gospels which would be uncolored by the translator’s personal faith. It was decided that this translation was to give the reader an honest picture of what Blessed Jesus truly said. They scanned the text for the words of Blessed Jesus, and collect an index of over 1,500 such sayings. They then tested (using tables and flowcharts) the validity of each of these sayings, one at a time, to see whether Blessed Jesus truly said each one. They then produced a fresh translation, color-coded to show authentic Jesuit sayings and those of an unreliable nature. Their conclusion (page 5) was:
“82% of the words ascribed to Blessed Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him.”
They go on to reveal that:
“biblical scholars and theologians alike have learned to distinguish the Blessed Jesus of history from the Christ of faith. It has been a painful lesson for both the church and scholarship. The distinction between the two figures is the difference between a historical person who lived in a particular time and place…and a figure who has been assigned a mythical role, in which he descends from heaven to rescue humankind and, of course, eventually returns there.”
Well then, if 82% of the “words of Blessed Jesus” found in the Bible were apparently never spoken by him then where did they come from? Some of the sources demonstrated by the authors are:
“The concept of plagiarism was unknown in the ancient world. Authors freely copied from predecessors without acknowledgment. Sages became the repository of free-floating proverbs and witticisms. For the first Christians, Blessed Jesus was a legendary sage: it was proper to attribute the world’s wisdom to him. The proverb in Mark 2:17, for example, is attested in secular sources (Plutarch and Diogenes for example)…in the parallel to the Markan passage, Matthew adds a sentence taken from the prophet Hosea (Matt 9:13).”Also:
“Hard sayings are frequently softened in the process of transmission to adapt them to the conditions of daily living…Variations in difficult saying often betray the struggle of the early Christian community to interpret or adapt sayings to its own situations… Matthew’s version of the aphorism “The last will be first and the first last” (Matt 20:16) is
softened in Mark 10:31 to “MANY of the first will be last, and of the last MANY will be first”.
And probably most revealing:
“Christian conviction eventually overwhelms Blessed Jesus: he is made to confess what Christians had come to believe…The contrast between Christian language or viewpoint and the language or viewpoint of Blessed Jesus is a very important clue to the
real voice of Blessed Jesus, the language of Blessed Jesus was distinctive, as was his style and perspective.”
The above is only a very small sampling of the very large cache of evidence clearly showing the Bible to have been seriously distorted and altered. To this day it is being continuously edited, corrected, and modified. This is not to say that Christians are not good and honest people in search of the truth. Quite the opposite. Among them are some of the most decent and moral people on this earth. The goal of this book is only to show that the Christian faith as it stands today is not the same one preached by Blessed Jesus peace be upon him to his followers 2000 years ago. This is exactly what the Qur’an has been asserting for over 1400 years now.
“O People of the Book! Why do you reject the Signs of God, when you [yourselves] bear witness [to their truth] ?. O People of the Book! Why do you clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while you have knowledge? (The Noble Quran, 3:70-71)”
“Say: ‘O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Signs of God, when God is Himself witness to all you do?’ Say: ‘O People of the Book! Why do you obstruct those who believe from the path of God, Seeking to make it crooked, while you were yourselves witnesses? But God is not unaware of what you do’ (The Noble Quran,
3:98-99)”
“Truly, the Religion in the Sight of God is Islam (literally: “the submission”). Nor did those who were given the scripture dissent the refrom except after knowledge had come to them, through envy of each other. But whosoever disbelieves in the Signs of God, [then surely,] God is swift in calling to account. (The Noble Quran, 3:19)”
“They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a party who stand [for that which is right], they recite the revelations of Allah throughout the night, falling prostrate [before Him]. (The Noble Quran, 3:113)”
“And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in God, and in that which was sent down unto you, and in that which was sent down unto them, humbling themselves before God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift to take account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)”
“O people of the Book! Now has come unto you Our messenger, revealing to you much of what you used to hide in the Book, and passing over much. Indeed, there has come to you from God a light and a plain Scripture (The Noble Quran, 5:15)”
4-JESSICA:
This Christ Himself told us in Matthew 13:10-18
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’[b]
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
4-MUSHTAQ:
I have THREE answers:
Answer 1: (Parables are stories)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 92.
Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and beware! But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the MESSAGE).
First of all, understand, What is a Parable?
A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, which illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human characters. A parable is a type of analogy.
Some scholars of the canonical gospels and the New Testament apply the term “parable” only to the parables of Blessed Jesus, though that is not a common restriction of the term. Parables such as “The Prodigal Son” are central to Blessed Jesus’ teaching method in both the canonical narratives and the apocrypha.
Many of Blessed Jesus’ parables refer to simple everyday things, such as a woman baking bread (parable of the Leaven), a man knocking on his neighbor’s door at night (parable of the Friend at Night), or the aftermath of a roadside mugging (parable of the Good Samaritan); yet they deal with major religious themes, such as the growth of the Kingdom of God, the importance of prayer, and the meaning of love.
In Western civilization, these parables formed the prototype for the term parable and in the modern age, even among those who know little of the Bible, the parables of Blessed Jesus remain some of the best known stories in the world.
Therefore, Parables have nothing to do with basic requirement of salvation (i.e. concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. { Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God}). Parable of Blessed Jesus are merely stories for moral lessons to audience.
Answer 2: (Parables of Matthew 13:10-18 have nothing to do with Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 99.
The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the MESSAGE) . Allah knoweth what ye proclaim and what ye hide.
Let’s study deeply Matthew 13:10-18; Here in this passage, Blessed Jesus states two objectives of Parables:
• To know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
• Parables for those who don’t learn easily or don’t accept truth easily (Because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear)
Notice that in Matthew 13:10-18, Blessed Jesus is not going to explain objective of Parable is to secretly define basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity i.e. Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God.
Answer 3: (10 commandments are not in Parables)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 84.
Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and BLESSED JESUS and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
Every Prophets teaches basic requirement of salvation without Parables openly. The concept of God is basic requirement of salvation; it is among the first teaching and main teaching of all Prophets. Take example of 10 commandments of Moses, these are basic requirements of salvation, but Are parables used in 10 commandments of Moses? Was parable used to teach first commandment of Moses (Belief in One God, not belief in man made confusion Trinity i.e. Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God) which is basic requirement of salvation?
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Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
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Dialogue with a Muslim friend: Some basics
5-JESSICA:
This, for a Muslim, outside the Church which Christ founded, to claim to know how to read Christ’s words, is fruitless. Christ wrote no book. He is the Word. He founded a Church, that Church knows how to read the Book which it, itself, canonized. So, to claim that a Book it canonized does not support its doctrine is incorrect.
Now, over a series of posts, I shall try to deal with some of the points to be found in Mushtaq’s long posts to be found here.
5-MUSHTAQ:
I have following FIVE (5) Answers:
Answer 1: (Random style of answering disturbs continuity of dialogue)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 068 – Al-Qalam. Verse 1.
Nun. By the pen and that which they WRITE (therewith),
This, for a Trinitarian Christian, outside the Monotheism believed by Prophets and Blessed Jesus, to claim to know how to read Christ’s words, is fruitless. Trinitarian Christians don’t see number three anywhere in teachings of any Prophet and even Blessed Jesus, even in the books of New Testament; number three for concept of God is not there. Whether Christ would write book or not write book, in both cases, Trinitarian Christians cannot find number three there in teachings of Blessed Jesus and will still embrace Trinity, since Councils of fourth century and tritheist Egyptian and Greece Roman pagans effects are the books for them. Yes Christ is the Word of God. Muslims and Christians agree on it, but definition of Word is different. In Christianity, Word is self contradictory “part of God with God and also full and complete God”, In Islam, Word is “God’s command Be that resulted in birth of Blessed Jesus without a human father.”
The Church founded by Christ, its members died after some years, and replaced by Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, Unitarian Christians, each one of them claims that Christ is the founder of his own Church, and their Church knows how to read the Book which it, itself, canonized.
Madam Jessica! For your help and support, I reduced 20 pages of my long post (Dialogue part 1) into 8 pages long Summary # 1. I have enlisted 11 summary points number wise, for your facility, I did this extra hard work of making Summary for your facility to continue our friendly dialogue in an organized sequence and to reach to some agreed results, but it is sad that you ignored my Summary and its 11 points and now are going to address randomly selected some points in my long original posts. Although it disturbs continuity in our friendly dialogue, still I shall try my best to produce facility for you and also for reader as well, what was the outcome of our long posts and long dialogue.
Answer 2: (Christ founded a Church without Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 6.
Then verily We shall question those unto whom (Our MESSAGE) hath been sent, and verily We shall question the messengers.
Christ founded a Church without Trinity, Oral traditions of Christ were foundation of various conflicting Gospels, and that Church received Scriptures with Monotheism and the doctrine of the Trinity later evolved under pagan influence of triads of Egypt and Greece and Rome. Early Fathers and Church history don’t all mark the developing understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.
Christians claim that “Church received both the Scriptures and the doctrine of the Trinity” is incorrect. The Scriptures which were received by Church, but man made corruptions have polluted them so much that truth has mixed with false in these Scriptures. There are conflicting verses in Old Testament and in New Testament. For sake of simplicity, here we shall remain restricted to very few examples from New Testament, especially conflicting Gospels which are again and again claimed by Madam Jessica as “Blessed Jesus established Church and Church established New testament”
Answer 3: (Trinitarian Christians misread book)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 014 – Ibrahîm. Verse 52.
This is a clear MESSAGE for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that men of understanding may take heed.
Christians, in response to objections based on Bible verses argue:
“It is to misread the book”
It is a good argument. But same argument favors Unitarian Christians and weakens Trinitarian Christians when we see that :
• Blessed Jesus didn’t speak and hear term Trinity, Unitarian Christians do the same.
• Blessed Jesus didn’t speak and hear definition of Trinity i.e. Concept of God i.e. Basic requirement of salvation (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God), Unitarian Christians do the same.
• Blessed Jesus didn’t speak and hear three persons in God, Unitarian Christians do the same.
• In Bible father is not called first member of Triune God, but used in meanings of Creator, Unitarian Christians do the same.
• In Bible Son is not called second member of Triune God, but in meanings of Loved One, Unitarian Christians do the same.
So, in the light of above comparison, it is proved that these are Trinitarian Christians which misread book, and Unitarian Christians are not heretics, but simply follower of Blessed Jesus and Scriptures. (There are lots of types of Unitarian Christians present in every age and time, but for sake of our discussion, we are calling Unitarian Christians to those who reject only Trinity).
Therefore, either Trinitarian Christians need to respond the objections based on Biblical verses are accept that Unitarian Christians don’t misread Bible and they are not heretics.
I could accept the argument that
“to use to book to disprove the doctrine is pointless”
if you also accept that book itself is pointless for Christians and Church and Church has no value and no importance for book. But this is not the case. Church and (corrupted) Bible are two pillars of Christianity. I never found such a Christian discrediting Bible as calling it pointless.
Answer 4: (For Blessed Jesus, Three days and three tents were more important than three persons of Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 022 – Al-Hajj. Verse 52.
Never sent We a messenger or a Prophet before thee but when He recited (the MESSAGE) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;
There are many Bible search websites. One of them is:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
In search box type “Blessed Jesus three” to show all verses in Bible which contains both words Blessed Jesus and three. Following results are obtained with KJV Bible.
Keyword search results : 5 Results
Matthew 15:32
Then BLESSED JESUS called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now THREE days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.
Matthew 17:4
Then answered Peter, and said unto BLESSED JESUS, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here THREE tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mark 9:5
And Peter answered and said to BLESSED JESUS, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make THREE tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Luke 9:33
And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto BLESSED JESUS, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make THREE tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
John 2:19
BLESSED JESUS answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in THREE days I will raise it up.
Read carefully above verses, Blessed Jesus spoke and hear number THREE in five verses of Bible. But Why he speak and hear number THREE?
In Matthew 15:32, Blessed Jesus speaks number THREE to tell number of days his disciples were Hungary. Blessed Jesus is not using number three to tell there are three persons in God. Is the use of number THREE to tell number of days more important than to describe basic belief of salvation? (three persons or Concept of God/Trinity?) Answer is Yes. Three days are more important than three persons of Trinity. Trinity is man made formula and Blessed Jesus did not teach use of number three to describe persons of Trinity/ God.
In Matthew 17:4, Mark 9:5 and Luke 9:33, Blessed Jesus heard number THREE to make THREE tabernacles (habitation / tent). Are THREE tents more important to be heard than THREE persons of Trinity? Answer is Yes, three tents are more important to be heard than three persons of Trinity near Blessed Jesus. It shows Trinity is man made formula and Blessed Jesus did not teach use of number three to describe persons of Trinity / concept of God as basic requirement of salvation.
In John 2:19, Blessed Jesus said number THREE to re-raise temple in three days. Are these three days more important than to describe basic belief of salvation? (Three members of Triune God / Concept of God /Trinity?) Answer is yes, these three days are again more important than three persons in man made formula of Trinity. Blessed Jesus did not teach use of number three to describe persons of Trinity.
Answer 5: (Catholic Church was not founded by Blessed Jesus)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 62.
I convey unto you the MESSAGEs of my Lord and give good counsel unto you, and know from Allah that which ye know not.
Christians claim that: “Church received traditions from Blessed Jesus and disciples, kept the traditions”. It is incorrect.
Did Blessed Jesus found the Catholic Church ?
When a Catholic opens their Bible they will never find Blessed Jesus in or near a Catholic church. There was no “Catholic Church” back then, there was just Jewish synagogues and the Jewish Temple. The church didn’t come about until years after Blessed Jesus’s death. When they open their Bible they will learn that Blessed Jesus was not a Catholic and was not the founder of the Catholic religion. They learn the word “Catholic” is not in the Bible. They then learn the Catholic church took up the name “Catholic” from Latin which means “universal.” The Catholic church claims it is “universal” or world wide. It claims it is the oldest and ONLY WORLD WIDE RELIGION OF CHRISTIANITY STARTED BY BLESSED JESUS CHRIST. When Catholics discover this is false, that Blessed Jesus was a Jew, talking to children of Israel, they soon learn the Catholic church is not Jewish at all but is Gentile owned, Gentile operated, and a Gentile controlled business enterprise whose product is paganized religion. When Catholics open their eyes and see that the Catholic church has adopted many pagan and heathen celebrations and practices and adapted these to Christian teachings, they know they have to leave. No, they know they have to run! It is right here, they know Blessed Jesus Christ was not the founder of the Catholic church. Because Blessed Jesus would not start a Church and then allow the gates of hell to conquer it by adopting pagan religious practices. No, Blessed Jesus would keep his Church pure and free from all evil and sin. The Catholic church is not such a Church. Blessed Jesus was not the founder of the Catholic church .
Catholic church was not founded by Blessed Jesus…because it wasn’t, it was founded by people. Blessed Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Blessed Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence “Christ”ianity or “Christ”ians came about. Notice also, in the Bible, Blessed Jesus rarely talked about church. He did however, talk about building His church (which could also be interpreted as a belief system) on Simon Peter. Peter means “rock.”
Fact is that the Pope was not chosen by God, or Blessed Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit, however, chosen by man. Many Catholic churches used pagan ideals in order to convert them into the church. Such as the “Christmas tree” and “The Easter egg” and the “Easter Bunny.” This has made the Holidays way too materialistic, and has caused people loose grasp of what the holidays are really about…The Birth of Blessed Jesus Christ and the death of our Savior.
Many Christians do not believe it is necessary to go to Church, (Bible also does not call it is necessary to go to Church) and just follow the teachings of the Bible. In fact, Blessed Jesus says in Matthew 6:5-6:8,
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have recieved their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbeling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of many their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”
Reference: A summary of http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080809074559AAB3JEu
Christ wrote no book, different people recorded his statements and later mixed them with pagan traditions. Blessed Jesus founded a community of disciples unaware of Trinity, three persons, Triune God; that He spoke about Father (in meanings of Creator, not in meanings of first member of Triune God), Son (in meanings of Loved one, not in meanings of second member of Triune God) and Holy Ghost (not as third member of Triune God), all Christians were united and still united in belief of One God taught by Prophets and Blessed Jesus.
Original Church which was the true Church, was gradually divided into various branches and corrupted and some such things as Easter, Christmas, and Trinity etc were forged not found in times of Blessed Jesus. Unitarian Christians accept that Trinity is man made addition in Christianity.
Church is the body which suffered from corruptions both the nature of the NT and of the Trinity: the two don’t go together, as can be seen by presence of Unitarian Christians in every age of History.
Later, Christians were divided and still divided due to man made confusion of Trinity, Still Unitarian Christians and Trinitarian Christians call each other heretic and condemn each other.
Early Church Fathers, using pagan sources of triads and triple deity in Egypt, Greece and Rome, struggled to incorporate those concepts into Christianity as a basic requirement of salvation (i.e. Concept of God / Trinity) and to attract converts from pagan religions. It is incorrect to say Blessed Jesus talk of number ‘Three’ (3) to define basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity. As Behold there are three persons in God etc. It is correct to suggest that the later Christians failed to pass on what they had received, and that the early Church was suffering from official tortures from Roman Empire and it was difficult for them to preserve Scriptures in Original form. First Official State Church was Armenian Church in world, and it was not Catholic Church. In 4th Century when Christianity became official religion of Roman Empire, then Councils were held among Christians to define basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity as believed by Church of that time.
Now I have shown in the response above, that the “Some basics in Christian Muslim Dialogue” that you presented are logically incorrect. However, considering importance of this topic, I shall present now correct bases for Christian Muslim Dialogue as follows:
(Part III) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE IN SCIENCE & RELIGION
When Christians and Muslim discuss and dialogue on scientific matters, then their approach is entirely different when same two will dialogue in Religion. Why? What is the main difference in dialogue on Science and Dialogue on Religion?
I thought on this question and came to four main differences.
In Dialogue on Science, both Muslim and Christians know that:
(i)-Definition of terms (Mass, Velocity, Force, Current etc.) are universally accepted.
(ii)-Natural variables and quantities are physically measurable in defined Units (kilogram, m/s, Newton, Ampere etc)
(iii)-Natural variables and quantities can be predicted.
(iv)-Scientific laws are universally accepted (Newton’s 3 laws of motion, Ohm’s law etc.)
But in Dialogue on Islam VS Christianity, both Muslim and Christians know that:
(i)-Definition of terms (God, Angel, Monotheism, Trinity, Pilgrimage etc.) are not universally accepted.
(ii)-God, Angel, Sin, Holiness etc are physically not measurable in any units.
(iii)-Presence of Angel, Spirit etc cannot be predicted.
(iv)-Religious laws are not universally accepted (Rules of worship, laws of pilgrimage etc.).
Although it is not possible to perform a Dialogue in Religion on the same pattern of a dialogue in Science, but the nearest effort that we can do, is to take care of following two points:
• Start discussion on definition of basic terms (God, Blessed Jesus, Word, Holy Spirit etc.) and try to get consensus on definition of basic terms under discussion.
• Try to keep dialogue measurable by Summary points, Table of Contents etc.
So from here we get lesson that Start of religious dialogue from definition of terms, may be a “basis” of dialogue.
Madam Jessica! This was the idea behind my first post on your blog which I wrote on 6 Sep 2013:
mushtaq_tariq said: Friday, 6 September 2013 at 5:53 pm
BLESSED JESUS (May he be blessed forever) IN CHRISTIANITY: Second member of Triune God, Son of first part of Triune God (Son of father only, but not son of son & not son of holy spirit), and at the same time “fully” God in every respect, but died as ordinary mortal man since God cannot die, Son of Mary died and Son of first *part of Triune God (*He is “full” God himself, BUT he is not Son of himself) remained alive, but there are not two Sons, but one son and this Son is equal to father with Age & every respect in Trinity, but father is not man and God at same time like Son.
BLESSED JESUS (May he be blessed forever) IN ISLAM: A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God with miracles. His mother was a saintly woman, gave birth to Blessed Jesus as Miracle on order (Word) of God. He is a mortal Man. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 75.
The Messiah, son of Mary (Blessed Jesus), was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother (Mary) was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!
I Corinthians 14:33 says: “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace,as in all churches of the saints.”
Doctrines made by men create confusion.
Hi Madam! We may talk more on emails; my email address is: mushtaqtariq70@yahoo.com , however, I also have no problem if you want to continue talk on your blog page. Regards and God bless You !
(Part IV) SOME BASICS: DIALOGUE ON ISLAM VS CHRISTIANITY
God IN CHRISTIANITY: God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are “coequal” “co-eternal” and “the same substance.” For this reason, this doctrine is described as “a mystery.”
God IN ISLAM: is one God in the most basic, simple, and elementary meaning of the word. He has no children, no parents nor any equal. In Islam God is known by the name “Allah” and more than 99 other venerated names, such as “the Merciful,” “the Gracious,” “the All-Powerful,” etc.
BLESSED JESUS IN CHRISTIANITY: The second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time “fully” God in every respect.
BLESSED JESUS IN ISLAM: A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this.
HOLY SPIRIT IN CHRISTIANITY: The third member of the Triune God, but also “fully” God in every respect.
HOLY SPIRIT IN ISLAM: He is the angel Gabriel. The angel Gabriel is highly esteemed as the “Trustworthy Spirit”
MARY IN CHRISTIANITY: A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Blessed Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time “fully” God Almighty in every respect.
MARY IN ISLAM: A chaste and pious human woman who was chosen, purified, and preferred over all of the women of creation to be the one to give birth to God’s elect messenger Blessed Jesus through the command of God without any father whatsoever.
WORD IN CHRISTIANITY: Part of God which was “with” God but also “fully” God and then became Blessed Jesus the Son of God.
WORD IN ISLAM: God’s command “Be!” which resulted in Blessed Jesus’ conception in the womb of Mary without the need for a human father.
PREVIOUS PROPHETS IN CHRISTIANITY: All accepted, respected, and believed.
PREVIOUS PROPHETS IN ISLAM: All accepted, respected, and believed.
BIBLE IN CHRISTIANITY: Accepted as 100% the faultless word of God.
BIBLE IN ISLAM: Muslims believe in the books of the previous prophets including the “Torah” which was sent to Moses, the “Zaboor” (Psalms) which were given to David, the “Injeel” (Gospel) which was given to Blessed Jesus, and the Qur’an which was given to Muhammad However, Muslims are told that the previous scriptures were tampered with by mankind and the Bible should only be accepted in as far as it is confirmed by the Qur’an. It is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the Qur’an are to be rejected as the work of mankind.
MUHUMMAD IN CHRISTIANITY: Varying beliefs. Some believe that he was a liar, some believe he was a lunatic, some believe he was the False Messiah, and yet others claim he was deceived by the Devil.
MUHUMMAD IN ISLAM: The last messenger of God to all of humanity. He was known as “The Truthful, the Trustworthy” before he received his first revelation. He was sent by God as a mercy to all creation. He was a human being but performed a number of miracles during his lifetime by the will of God.
QURAN IN CHRISTIANITY: Varying beliefs ranging from it being a copy of the Bible to it being the work of Muhammad (pbuh), to it’s being the work of Christians and Jews who were conspiring with Muhammad.
QURAN IN ISLAM: The last book of God sent to mankind. It was given the distinction of being personally guarded by God fromhuman tampering. It is on a literary level never before seen by mankind. No Arab to this day has ever been
able to meet it’s challenge to “write a work similar to it.” It shall remain safe from the tampering of mankind till the day of Judgment as a guidance for all Humanity.
MESSAGE OF BLESSED JESUS IN CHRISTIANITY: That he was sent by God (who was at the same time “fully” Blessed Jesus) in order to die on the cross and save all mankind from the sin of Adam. Without this sacrifice all of humanity was destined to
perish in the sin of Adam. After the crucifixion all that is required of humanity is faith without any works.
MESSAGE OF BLESSED JESUS IN ISLAM: That he was sent by God as a messenger to the Jews in order to return them to the pure and true religion of Moses, and to relieve them of some of the regulations which had been placed upon them in ancient times. He taught them to have faith as well as works. Neither one can stand alone.
BLESSED JESUS MIRACLES IN CHRISTIANITY: Blessed Jesus’ giving life to the dead, healing the blind and the lepers, are all accepted. He performed them because he was the Son of God and also at the same time “fully” God and the “incarnation” of God.
BLESSED JESUS MIRACLES IN ISLAM: All accepted. They were performed through the will of God just as Moses, Noah, and all other prophets did so in ancient times through the will of God.
CRUCIFIXION IN CHRISTIANITY: Blessed Jesus was given over to the Jews. He was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped, and finally hung up on the cross and killed very slowly and painfully.
CRUCIFIXION IN ISLAM: Blessed Jesus was not forsaken to the Jews to be abused and killed, however, it was “made to appear so to them.” God saved Blessed Jesus by raising him up unto Himself.
SECOND COMING OF BLESSED JESUS IN CHRISTIANITY: Accepted. Originally expected to happen during the lifetime of the
first disciples, many predictions have been made later and he is still expected at any moment.
SECOND COMING OF BLESSED JESUS IN ISLAM: Accepted. Blessed Jesus did not die but was raised up into heaven by God. He shall return to earth just before the Day of Judgment in order to kill the “False Messiah” and to establish peace and justice on earth. He will kill the pigs, break the cross, and call all humanity to Islam.
ORIGINAL SIN IN CHRISTIANITY: All of humanity has inherited the sin of Adam. Only the death of the sinless offspring of God could erase this sin. No one is born clean, no matter if his life is only for a single day. Only baptism and faith in the death of Blessed Jesus can save.
ORIGINAL SIN IN ISLAM: There is no such thing. Humanity is created by God destined for heaven unless they chose to disobey Him and refuse His mercy. God can very trivially and effortlessly forgive the sins of all of Humanity no matter if they were to fill the lofty regions of the sky. Such a matter would be trivial and inconsequential for Him since He has already done much more than that such as creating everything we can ever see, hear or imagine. He loves to bestow His mercy and forgiveness on His creation and rewards the most trivial acts with the most tremendous rewards. In order to achieve God’s reward one must have faith as well as works.
ATONEMENT IN CHRISTIANITY: The sin of Adam was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless innocent god named Blessed Jesus who was also “fully” God.
ATONEMENT IN ISLAM: Adam “atoned” for his sin by saying “My Lord I have sinned and if you do not forgive me and have mercy upon me then I shall indeed have lost.” So God forgave him. Similarly, all human beings have the door to forgiveness left open to them by God until the day they die. There are no intermediaries between mankind and God. If they sincerely repent to God, ask His forgiveness, and forsake their evil deeds before their hour comes then He shall forgive them and there is nothing more pleasing to Him than to forgive the sins of one who comes to Him in sincere repentance.
SALVATION IN CHRISTIANITY: If you have faith in the atonement of Blessed Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.
SALVATION IN ISLAM: If you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work.
I hope you will like these real bases of Christian Muslim Dialogue than those bases proposed by you ! please comment on it.
Madam Jessica! In the end of this long article; I want to thank you for giving idea of this beautiful topic “Some basics in dialogue”. I have worked on this idea, and I have brought something and some facts for you, which I am sure others will also like to read and will like to comment.
Regards,
Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq.
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