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Having show Mushtaq that Christ founded a Church, not a book, and that Church received both the Scriptures and the doctrine of the Trinity, we now move to show that the early Fathers and Church history all mark the developing understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.
Here crucial books are:
James D. G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament (2005)
Franz Dunzl, A Brief History of the Doctrine of the Trinity (2007)
Lewis Ayres, Nicaea and its legacy (2004)
Khaled Anatolis, Athanasius (2004)
Larry W Hurtado, How on earth did Jesus become a God? (2005)
To understand what these, and other books are saying, it is, again, critical to realise that Jesus wrote no book. He founded a Church. That Church is guided toward the fullness of the Truth by the Holy Spirit. It follows from this that any attempt to take on Church Father in isolation and show that he did not fully articulate the doctrine of the Trinity is wthout point. No one knowledgeable in these matters says he did.
Mushtaq takes some of my quotations from the Fathers and attempts to show they do not mean what Christ’s Church, in whose bosom they grew, knows they mean. You can find his full examples in the section on dialogue with a muslim: links, but let me take this as an example of how he proceeds, and why he errs.
“O Lord God almighty… I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Blessed Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever”
Mushtaq’s response is in italics, and my responses in bold:
His words don’t help Trinitarian Christians, reasons are:
(a)He is blessing to “God”, he is not blessing “Triune God” or Trinity.
But what reasoning is this? Polycarp was the disciple of St John who wrote:
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which[a] He has testified of His Son.
So for Polycarp ‘God’ is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. This he learned from the Blessed John himself.
(b)He is calling Blessed Jesus a “high priest”, not full and complete God in every respect or second member of Triune God.
This is false reasoning. Christ is often called Hight Priest as well as Son, this is because He took the place of the High Priest in the great sacrifice at Calvary. John 17 shows Christ Himself taking on these roles, so the notion that He cannot be Son and High Priest is simply incorrect by the words of Jesus Himself.
(c) He is calling him Son (Many people are called Son of God in Bible, Adam lacked both father and mother, and is also called Son of God in Luke 3 :38. So Adam is also Son of God without adding him in Trinity; therefore, Son of God doesn’t necessarily mean member of Trinity, but it may be like Adam Son of God without concept of Trinity). So Is this Son with reference of Trinity or Son like Adam? Polycarp is not telling here that Son is second member of Triune God or full and complete God in every respect.
But we have already shown that Polycarp was the disciple of John who wrote of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one else in Scripture is written of in this way, not Adam, not anyone.
(d)He is not saying here that Holy Spirit is third member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. Muslims and Unitarian Christians also believe in Holy Spirit without Trinity, same is doing here Polycarp.
I do not agree. Polycarp is John’s disciple and believed as John believed – that is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That non-Christian Muslims and non Christian Unitarians disagree is not, of course, surprising.
Now, I could go through every other example on the list in the link and do the same, and for the same reason, which is worth reiterating: Christ wrote no Book.
How, therefore, do we know Scripture? We know it through the Church Christ founded. How do we know the Trinity? Through that same Church. Now, if that Church was wrong about the Trinity, then why should we believe it was right about what is and is not Scripture? It cannot be partly wrong and partly right, any more than a woman can be partly a virgin. If it is the Church, it is right, if it is not, nothing else matters, as we can believe nothing it says. I, like all Christians, believe the Church is right on what is Scripture, and on what the Trinity is.
All Along the Watchtower 
I not sure we can say Jesus founded a church but instead a way of life. Or perhaps meaning Church as the body of believers universal in each person’s unique connection through Holy Spirit. I would think Paul and disciples and early bishops would be church founders but let me know if my thinking is clear on this. On another point I am sure Jesus would be appalled and quite disgusted with the palaces we call churches and the fancy Dan costumes of clergy – seems more pompous than that of Jewish hierarchy of his time. On the other hand He has reverence for the Temple but then again refers to himself as the Temple.
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We know that He said He was founding a Church against which the very gates of hell would not prevail. We also know that Paul writes to churches which are not simply individual believers, but groups of them.
I am with you that Jesus would have deplored many of the things done in His name. But I hope He would also approve of much good we try to do in His name.
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I also think that God showed the Jews quite early on the reverence that we should hold God and the we should offer up the best that we have to offer: the sacrifice needed to be without blemish, the use of gold and other expensive materials etc. This seems to be the understanding of Jesus as he has his feet rubbed with spikenard which was an expensive ointment. It is not necessary to offer up these things but it seems we should offer up the best we have and the best we can afford: like the widow’s mite. How much splendor is enough? We treat our dignitaries of state with more pomp and splendor than most churches do our Lord.
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The Temploms of early days were built in the centre of the city. They were the most prominent and tallest buildings in the city. The populace built it to the greater glory of God. Their Faith was the centre of their lives. So the ceilings and walls were either painted or frescoed. Statues were erected. All these decorations were embellishments to further their delight in building the very best they could afford to the glory of God.
The frescoes and statuary were also used by the monks from the attached monastery to educate the illiterate in their Faith. The monks were not only educated in the Faith but the humanities, science and medicine. There was always a herb garden and many times a hospital.
The Benedictines are known the world over for both their hospitality to all comers and keeping a good table
The Templom was also the political and social centre. After Mass on Sunday’s the various groups would gather outside to discuss current events and politics. It was the centre of all festivals both religious and social.
When I go to any new city in Europe, I head right away to the Templom, for there I’ll find the history of the place from all points of view. I’ll also see many painting and sculptures by famous artists.
It would all well before embarking on a trip to first read the essay by Francis Bacon on “Travel.” With few exceptions what it contains holds true to this day.
Failing to prepare for your trip, say to Firenze, you’ll miss one of the most famous paintings of all time. It’s hidden in the Cenacolo di San Salvi. Yes, you’ll have to go out of your way to get there. Behind the head table of the Abbott on the wall is the Last supper of the, “Perfect Painter.”
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At the risk of repeating myself…Jesus didnt found a church. He is the church. If you can repeat yourself, i can repeat myself. Every other sentence from catholis is…the church that Christ founded. Over and over again. Like drumming into peoples heads. I guess if you keep saying it, one day you might believe it.
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He is the foundation of the Church, its cornerstone, but not the Church. We, His people, are the Church.
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What does a head do for its body? answer; Everything. Without the head, a body is nothing. Jesus is the head, we the saved are the body parts. jesus holds the the seven churches in his hand, or the seven spirits of god in his hand. Dont look now, But Jesus is the sum total of the church. What makes men his body is that he dwells in the saved. Like it or not, Jesus is the church. Anyway, who told you Jesus want the Church?
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Where, Bosco, does Scripture say Jesus is the Church?
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I dont get you. I might be missing something. The bible say the saved are the church. that can mislead the unsaved. Jesus is the foundation as you mentioned. Without that, there is no church. The church is also called his bride. The unsaved have trouble understanding any of this. Jesus is all. There is nothing else.
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That is why Jesus can’t be the Church – he can’t be his own bride 🙂
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My understanding is that the church is the body of Christ made up of all believers Colossians 1:24 and as the head of the body Christ is the primary and directing part of it. He is then the head and the foundation – Christ above me Christ below me and the hymn of Patrick comes to mind.
But I think we should try and keep these discussions which carry titles of interest to Muslims more specifically relevant to Islamic friends.
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I agree entirely Rob.
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Dialogue with a Muslim friend: early Fathers
TABLE OF CONTENTS (TOC # 2) –
TOC Title = Dialogue with a Muslim friend: early Fathers (3B)
TOC Date: 06 Oct 2013
Dialogue between: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq and Jessica Hoff
TOC Author: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
TOC compression ratio: 13 pages compressed to 1.5 pages (8.6 :1)
1-JESSICA:
Having show Mushtaq in previous article . . . ?
1-MUSHTAQ:
No need to repeat my answer of previous article here. Now we shall discuss this article at hand.
2-JESSICA: (List of books on Trinity) . . . ?
2-MUSHTAQ (Dialogue is exchange of Questions and Answers, not exchange of list of books)
3-JESSICA:
Mushtaq takes some of my quotations from the Fathers and attempts to show they do not mean what Christ’s Church, in whose bosom they grew, knows they mean, citing 1 John CH5 V7 . . . ?
3-MUSHTAQ
I have TWO Answers:
Answer 1: (1 John CH5 V7 is proof of corruption in Bible and forgery of Trinity)
Answer 2: (Poly carp is unable to define Trinity)
4-JESSICA:
Christ is often called High Priest . . . ?
4-MUSHTAQ (Our discussion is not “Is Blessed Jesus High Priest?”)
5-JESSICA:
Polycarp was the disciple of John who write Father, Son and Holy Spirit in 1 John CH5 V7 . . . ?
5-MUSHTAQ
I have FOUR Answers:
Answer 1: (Discussion is not on question “Who was teacher of Polycarp?”)
Answer 2: (Even if I accept that Polycarp was the disciple of John)
Answer 3: (Seven biblical verses join together Father, Son and angels in “Trinity)
Answer 4: (St Paul & John forgot third member of Triune God in 30 verses)
6-JESSICA:
(d)He is not saying here that Holy Spirit is third member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. I do not agree. . . ?
6-MUSHTAQ
I have three Answers:
Answer 1: (Early fathers were illiterate of writing first, second and third members of Triune God)
Answer 2: (Discussion on early fathers is useless if Christ wrote no book)
Answer 3: (Student can have different opinion than his teacher)
7-JESSICA:
Church cannot be partly wrong and partly right . . . ?
7-MUSHTAQ (Church can be partly right and partly wrong)
END OF TOC
1-JESSICA:
Having show Mushtaq that Christ founded a Church, not a book, and that Church received both the Scriptures and the doctrine of the Trinity, we now move to show that the early Fathers and Church history all mark the developing understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.
1-MUSHTAQ
Thank you Madam Jessica for your article that you wrote for me.
However, if readers want to see reality of these claims what Madam Jessica “has shown”, then please read her previous articles answered by me. Here I don’t want to repeat same stuff.
I have replied each and every point raised by Madam Jessica in previous articles, response is awaited from Madam Jessica, and therefore, now there is no need to repeat my answers here. Now we shall discuss this article at hand.
2-JESSICA: (List of books on Trinity)
Here crucial books are:
James D. G. Dunn, Unity and Diversity in the New Testament (2005)
Franz Dunzl, A Brief History of the Doctrine of the Trinity (2007)
Lewis Ayres, Nicaea and its legacy (2004)
Khaled Anatolis, Athanasius (2004)
Larry W Hurtado, How on earth did Blessed Jesus become a God? (2005)
To understand what these, and other books are saying, it is, again, critical to realize that Blessed Jesus wrote no book. He founded a Church.
2-MUSHTAQ (Dialogue is exchange of Questions and Answers, not exchange of list of books)
Dialogue is exchange of Questions and Answers, Dialogue is not exchange of list of books, if you yourself have not capability to read these books and extract required answer for dialogue, then you are not eligible to participate in Dialogue. Go and first learn these books yourselves to find out how to extract required answers from these books at time of Dialogue.
You may cite few book in dialogue, but just only as a reference to what you say in dialogue, not as a replacement of question and answer for “Recommended study”.
Blessed Jesus wrote no book, he left oral traditions which took form of conflicting Gospels over a period of years by unknown authors. These books became a useful tool for Church to propagate conflicting traditions attributed to Blessed Jesus such as number three, Trinity, Triune God etc.
3-JESSICA:
That Church is guided toward the fullness of the Truth by the Holy Spirit. It follows from this that any attempt to take on Church Father in isolation and show that he did not fully articulate the doctrine of the Trinity is without point. No one knowledgeable in these matters says he did.
Mushtaq takes some of my quotations from the Fathers and attempts to show they do not mean what Christ’s Church, in whose bosom they grew, knows they mean. You can find his full examples in the section on dialogue with a muslim: links, but let me take this as an example of how he proceeds, and why he errs.
“O Lord God almighty… I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Blessed Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever”
Mushtaq’s response is in italics, and my responses in bold:
His words don’t help Trinitarian Christians, reasons are:
(a)He is blessing to “God”, he is not blessing “Triune God” or Trinity.
But what reasoning is this? Polycarp was the disciple of St John who wrote:
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Blessed Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Blessed Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which[a] He has testified of His Son.
So for Polycarp ‘God’ is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. This he learned from the Blessed John himself.
3-MUSHTAQ
I am surprised how you can quote notorious 1 John CH5 V7 in Christian Muslim Dialogue as “proof” of Trinity. Don’t you know it is well known proof of corruption in Bible and forgery of Trinity? Now I have TWO Answers:
Answer 1: (1 John CH5 V7 is proof of corruption in Bible and forgery of Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 79.
Therefore woe be unto those who WRITE the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
When 32 biblical scholars backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised Standard Version (RSV Bible 1952, 1971) of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today, they made some very extensive changes in 1611 King James Version (KJV) Bible. Some changes brought Bible more closer to Quran. They deleted 1 John CH5 V7 (THE clearest statement of the Trinity in all the Bible) as man made fabrication.
KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE: 1 John, chapter 5 Verse 7:
7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
REVISED STANDARD VERSION BIBLE: 1 John, chapter 5 Verse 7
7: And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
However, we find that the noble Qur’an (the Muslims’ Holy Scripture) did not need to wait for centuries for these Christians to discover this fact. Indeed God revealed it to us fully fourteen hundred years ago:
“O people of the book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and his Word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from him so believe in Allah and his messengers. SAY NOT “THREE” DESIST IT WILL BE BETTER FOR YOU for Allah is one God Glory be to him Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs. (The Noble Quran, 4:171)”
The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Blessed Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one “Triune” being is the verse
of 1 John 5:7
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
This verse is now universally recognized as being a later “insertion” of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible …etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages. Why is this? The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his “Emphatic Diaglott.” Mr. Wilson says:
“This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it’s authority. It is therefore evidently spurious.”
Others, such as the late Dr. Herbert W. Armstrong argued that this verse was added to the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible during the heat of the controversy between Rome, Arius, and God’s people. Whatever the reason, this verse is now universally recognized as an insertion and discarded. Since the Bible contains no verses validating a “Trinity”
therefore, centuries after the departure of Blessed Jesus, God chose to inspire someone to insert this verse in order to clarify the true nature of God as being a “Trinity.” Notice how mankind was being inspired as to how to “clarify” the Bible centuries after the departure of Blessed Jesus (pbuh). People continued to put words in the mouths of Blessed Jesus, his disciples, and even God himself with no reservations whatsoever. They were being “inspired”.
If these people were being “inspired” by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people’s mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John). Why did they not just openly say “God inspired me and I will add a chapter to the Bible in my name”? Also, why did God need to wait till after the departure of Blessed Jesus to “inspire” his “true” nature? Why not let Blessed Jesus (pbuh) say it himself?
Answer 2: (Poly carp is unable to define Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 004 – An-Nisâ. Verse 163.
Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and BLESSED JESUS and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;
Church was misguided toward the tritheism or Trinity under pagan influence. Early Church Fathers before Nicean Creed were illiterate in sense that they couldn’t define (thus becoming heretic to people) basic requirement of salvation in Christianity i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity in the same wording invented by Nicean Council in 4th century.
The knowledgeable Unitarian Christians and Muslims understand that Trinity is false man made lie.
Let’s see how Madam Jessica proceeds and why she errs in reading early Church fathers.
She provides reason of my errors is “what reasoning is this? Polycarp was the disciple of St John”. It is not reply, the discussion is not here who was teacher of Polycarp?, discussion is where is Trinity in teachings of Polycarp? She wants to change title of dialogue when she gets no answer.
Madam Jessica cited St John claimed writing; again it is pointless and makes no help to Trinitarian Christians. St John’s alleged writing V5 states Blessed Jesus as “Son of God”, as I have already shown in Summary #1 and full detailed dialogue behind it, Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity, Divine Sonship contradicts Trinity. Now it should be read as “Son of first part of Triune God”, merely Son of God means Blessed Jesus is also Son of himself which Trinitarian Christians deny.
Next in V6 he says Blessed Jesus came by water and blood; where is Trinity? (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God) Doest St John define Holy Trinity as three persons water,blood and Spirit? We ordinary mortal men also come by water and blood in this world, our spirit also bear witnesses, then if it is proof of Trinity, then every Christian with water and blood in his body and alive with Spirit is part of Trinity? What proof of Trinity she wants to give with this nonsense?
V9 states that witness of God is greater, so what? We Muslims and every man will accept it but where are three members of Triune God here in writing of St John, alleged teacher of Polycarp?
If St. John taught all this nonsense in name of Trinity to Polycarp and poor Poly carp is now unable to define Trinity in his writing (as we saw above), then it is not mistake of Polycarp, it is mistake of Madam Jessica who is so deeply arrested in Love of Nicean Council’s “divine inspired” words in 4th century (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God) that she wants to “sees” it everywhere, as basic requirement of salvation (Concept of God) invented in 4th century and thus Christians of first three centuries were illiterate in Concept of God and Church was also sleeping in wait of Nicean Council to discover basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God (Trinity formula= Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God).
Madam Jessica! You wrote above: “So for Polycarp ‘God’ is the Father, the Son and the Spirit”. OK Unitarian Christians don’t deny it, they claim, Father is used here in meanings of creator, as believed by Unitarian Christians and Muslims. Son is used here in meaning of Loved One. So this statement is not proof of Trinity, but proof of Unitarian Concept of God. Proof of Trinity will come when you will show me writing which states that Father is first member of Triune God and Son is second member of Triune God.
This statement is similar to saying that if three persons are sitting or eating together, then do they form one unit? Answer is No. unless it is explicitly told, who is first member of what? Second member of what? And third member of what? E.g. Second member of Triune God.
4-JESSICA:
(b)He is calling Blessed Jesus a “high priest”, not full and complete God in every respect or second member of Triune God.
This is false reasoning. Christ is often called High Priest as well as Son, this is because He took the place of the High Priest in the great sacrifice at Calvary. John 17 shows Christ Himself taking on these roles, so the notion that He cannot be Son and High Priest is simply incorrect by the words of Blessed Jesus Himself.
4-MUSHTAQ (Our discussion is not “Is Blessed Jesus High Priest?”)
Madam Jessica! You have not read what I wrote here. I am not refusing from Blessed Jesus being a “High Priest”. Our discussion is not “Is Blessed Jesus High Priest?”, but our discussion is “Is Blessed Jesus second member of Triune God?”, so what I want to say, is that Polycarp is not calling Blessed Jesus second member of Triune God as Trinitarian Christians would expect, but rather he is calling Blessed Jesus merely high priest, something irrelevant to discussion on Trinity and which is also acceptable to Unitarian Christians.
5-JESSICA:
(c) He is calling him Son (Many people are called Son of God in Bible, Adam lacked both father and mother, and is also called Son of God in Luke 3 :38. So Adam is also Son of God without adding him in Trinity; therefore, Son of God doesn’t necessarily mean member of Trinity, but it may be like Adam Son of God without concept of Trinity). So Is this Son with reference of Trinity or Son like Adam? Polycarp is not telling here that Son is second member of Triune God or full and complete God in every respect.
But we have already shown that Polycarp was the disciple of John who wrote of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one else in Scripture is written of in this way, not Adam, not anyone.
5-MUSHTAQ
I have FOUR Answers:
Answer 1: (Discussion is not on question “Who was teacher of Polycarp?”)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 006 – Al-An’âm. Verse 85.
And Zachariah and John and BLESSED JESUS and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
Again our discussion is not on question “Who was teacher of Polycarp?”, We are discussing “Do writings of Polycarp favor Trinitarian Christians or Unitarian Christians who also believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit?”.
You have ignored Summary # 1 of our dialogue (and also full detailed reply behind Summary #1) and you have not replied it, in which I made a summary point “Early Church fathers have not unique ID as Trinitarian Christians”, since you did neither read that Summary, nor answer original full detailed dialogue, that’s why you are repeating your already tried arguments and it can create deadlock or circle in our friendly dialogue if you keep on neglecting my detailed answers and Summaries of dialogue and repeating same things again and again already addressed.
You are trying to change topic of discussion since you have no proof here.
Answer 2: (Even if I accept that Polycarp was the disciple of John)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 006 – Al-An’âm. Verse 85.
And Zachariah and John and BLESSED JESUS and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
Even if I accept that Polycarp was the disciple of John, then so what? Has Polycarp not right to secretly converted to Unitarian Christians?, one sign is that he doesn’t call Blessed Jesus second member of Triune God, but merely Son of God, we may understand Polycarp is exactly following Unitarian Christians avoiding Blessed Jesus to declare as second member of Triune God, he is not following expected council in Nicea to define basic requirement of salvation for Christianity (in 4th century) i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God).
Answer 3: (Seven biblical verses join together Father, Son and angels in “Trinity)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 191.
Attribute they as PARTNERs to Allah those who created naught, but are themselves created,
Madam Jessica! You wrote:
“But we have already shown that Polycarp was the disciple of John who wrote of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one else in Scripture is written of in this way, not Adam, not anyone”.
Your statement is incorrect that no one else in Scripture is written of in this way! Why? You are reading:
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Number of persons “Three” not told here)
So if in the Bible, Father, Son and Holy Ghost came together in one verse without telling exact number of persons in God, then it means they form a Trinity formula? If I accept your Logic for this single verse (Matthew 28:19), then why do you not accept those seven (7) verses (Genesis 24:7, Genesis 24:40, Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38, Mark 13:32, Luke 9:26 and Hebrews 1:5) in Bible which join together Father, Son and angels in “Trinity.
Genesis 24:7
The Lord God of heaven, which took me from my FATHER’S house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his ANGEL before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my SON from thence.
Genesis 24:40
And he said unto me, The Lord, before whom I walk, will send his ANGEL with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my SON of my kindred, and of my FATHER’S house:
Matthew 16:27
For the SON of man shall come in the glory of his FATHER with his ANGELS; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the SON of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his FATHER with the holy ANGELS.
Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the ANGELS which are in heaven, neither the SON, but the FATHER.
Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the SON of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his FATHER’S, and of the holy ANGELS.
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the ANGELS said he at any time, Thou art my SON, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a FATHER, and he shall be to me a Son?
Answer 4: (St Paul & John forgot third member of Triune God in 30 verses)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 009 – At-Taubah. Verse 31.
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as PARTNER (unto Him)!
If you search entire Bible for keywords “God Father Blessed Jesus Lord”, then you get 31 biblical verses mostly from letters of Paul.
(1) Romans 1:7, (2) Romans 15:6, (3) 1 Corinthians 1:3, (4) 1 Corinthians 8:6, (5) 2 Corinthians 1:2, (6) 2 Corinthians 1:3, (7) 2 Corinthians 11:31, (8) Galatians 1:3, (9) Ephesians 1:2, (10) Ephesians 1:3, (11) Ephesians 1:17, (12) Ephesians 5:20, (13) Ephesians 6:23, (14) Philippians 1:2, (15) Philippians 2:11, (16) Colossians 1:2, (17) Colossians 1:3, (18) Colossians 3:17, (19) 1 Thessalonians 1:1, (20) 1 Thessalonians 1:3, (21) 1 Thessalonians 3:11, (22) 1 Thessalonians 3:13, (23) 2 Thessalonians 1:1, (24) 2 Thessalonians 1:2, (25) 2 Thessalonians 2:16, (26) 1 Timothy 1:2, (27) 2 Timothy 1:2, (28) Titus 1:4, (29) Philemon 1:3, (30) 1 Peter 1:3 and (31) 2 John 1:3.
Surprisingly, none of them (Except #11 Ephesians 1:17, with spirit of wisdom) mentions third member of Triune God “Holy Spirit”, also full and complete God in every respect, which means, St. Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus but wrote most of New testament) and St John (Controversial person as author of Gospel of John) were unaware of third member of Triune God to mention to complete set of three. They were illiterate of basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity formula i.e. (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God.). Although Paul presents Blessed Jesus as a Divine figure, but not as a second member of Triune God and full and complete God in every respect.
It supports Michael H Hart opinion in his book “The 100: A ranking of the most influential persons in History” when he ranks Blessed Jesus # 3 in History and writes reason:
“Blessed Jesus presented a spiritual message: Paul added to that the worship of Christ.”
Thus Paul made foundations for Trinity with Divinity of Blessed Jesus which later in 4th Century, (under influence of dozens of pagan triples deities / triads of Egypt and Greece Rome), was “agreed” by Christians as a Concept of God i.e. basic requirement of salvation i.e. Trinity formula i.e. (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God.)
(1) Romans 1:7 = To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(2) Romans 15:6 = That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(3) 1 Corinthians 1:3 = Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(4) 1 Corinthians 8:6 = But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(5) 2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(6) 2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
(7) 2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
(8) Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ,
(9) Ephesians 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(10) Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(11) Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
(12) Ephesians 5:20
Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ;
(13) Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(14) Philippians 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(15) Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Blessed Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(16) Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(17) Colossians 1:3
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
(18) Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Blessed Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
(19) 1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(20) 1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
(21) 1 Thessalonians 3:11
Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
(22) 1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(23) 2 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ:
(24) 2 Thessalonians 1:2
Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(25) 2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
(26) 1 Timothy 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Blessed Jesus Christ our Lord.
(27) 2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Blessed Jesus our Lord.
(28) Titus 1:4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ our Saviour.
(29) Philemon 1:3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ.
(30) 1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Blessed Jesus Christ from the dead,
(31) 2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Blessed Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
6-JESSICA:
(d)He is not saying here that Holy Spirit is third member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. Muslims and Unitarian Christians also believe in Holy Spirit without Trinity, same is doing here Polycarp.
I do not agree. Polycarp is John’s disciple and believed as John believed – that is in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That non-Christian Muslims and non Christian Unitarians disagree is not, of course, surprising.
Now, I could go through every other example on the list in the link and do the same, and for the same reason, which is worth reiterating: Christ wrote no Book.
6-MUSHTAQ
I have three Answers:
Answer 1: (Early fathers were illiterate of writing first, second and third members of Triune God)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 009 – At-Taubah. Verse 31.
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as PARTNER (unto Him)!
You ignored remaining analysis of the your own presented “Early Fathers” since you have seen that “Early Church fathers have not unique ID as Trinitarian Christians.” (A summary point in Summary #1 of our Dialogue).
Answer 2: (Discussion on early fathers is useless if Christ wrote no book)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 140.
Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or CHRISTIANS? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
If Christ wrote no Book, and therefore, you are not paying any heed to these Unitarian Statements of Early church fathers, then Why did you quote here these references of these Unitarian Church fathers in first place? Why do you follow Bible or read Bible? Answer to this is simply to follow Blessed Jesus who never speak and hear number THREE (3) to define concept of God as basic requirement of salvation.
Answer 3: (Student can have different opinion than his teacher)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 256.
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from ERROR. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Again you are focused to teacher of Polycarp. If student (Polycarp) has failed to define Trinity in language of Trinitarian Christians, then Why are you fingering again and again towards his teacher John? You have assumed that Polycarp believed what John believed, it is not necessary, a student can have different opinion than his teacher.
Also in daily life, if a student is failed in an exam, then his teacher is not fined or punished, then why do you consider Polycarp’s teacher to do something with if Polycarp has failed in defining basic requirement of salvation for Trinitarian Christians i.e. Concept of God i.e Trinity i.e. Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God.
Merely joint presence of Words Father and Son in the writings of Polycarp and his teacher John, doesn’t mean that Father and Son are used in meanings of first and second member of Triune God. It is the point of Unitarian Christians and Muslims that Father and Son in their writings are used in meanings of Creator and Loved ones, not in meanings of first and second member of Triune God, something Trinitarian Christians are unable to understand.
7-JESSICA:
How, therefore, do we know Scripture? We know it through the Church Christ founded. How do we know the Trinity? Through that same Church. Now, if that Church was wrong about the Trinity, then why should we believe it was right about what is and is not Scripture? It cannot be partly wrong and partly right, any more than a woman can be partly a virgin. If it is the Church, it is right, if it is not, nothing else matters, as we can believe nothing it says. I, like all Christians, believe the Church is right on what is Scripture, and on what the Trinity is.
7-MUSHTAQ (Church can be partly right and partly wrong)
Quran: Surah/Chapter 007 – Al-A’râf. Verse 60.
The chieftains of his people said: Lo! we see thee surely in plain ERROR.
In Basics, Easter Challenge we saw that Bible can be partly right and partly wrong, same is also true for Church.
If from Church you mean Christian Church, then Christian Church is divided into Orthodox Church, Catholic Church, Protestant Church and Unitarian Church, Church is again partly right and partly wrong. It is partly right due to monotheism, and partly wrong due to Trinity formula.
We know Scripture through various conflicting Gospels. Blessed Jesus founded a Jewish community that was diverted to Gentiles by St. Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus) and many scholars have argued that he must be called real founder of Christianity.
How do we know the Trinity? Through the Nicean Council of 4th century as “Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God”.
Now, if that Church turned wrong about the Trinity in 4th century, then why should we believe it was right about what is and is not Scripture in first century? It can be partly wrong and partly right in first century and then in 4th century as well. It is similar to a young girl maturing into an adult woman. In Church there is not one man, there are thousands of men, each one may have different opinion, even teacher and student may have different opinion (as we have seen above in case of Polycarp and St John) and therefore, it is possible for Church to be partly right and partly wrong. Take example of Nicean Council, all Christians were not agreed on definition of Trinity. They came to attend Nicean council in 325 because different Christians had different interpretation of Trinity. After council, those who disagreed from official declarations were condemned as heretics and usually buried alive. Later many more councils were held and all held because different priests has different opinion and council was called to settle dispute and condemn heretics in order to burn them alive. So Church can be partly right and partly wrong. Divison of Church in Great Schism in 1054 and split in Church in 16th century due to Protestant movement again proves that Church can be partly right and partly wrong.
Church is totally incorrect on matter of Trinity and as far as Scriptures are concerned, Holy Quran is standard of truth. If Quran verifies what is in Bible, that is acceptable and Sacred, and if Quran opposes something which is in Bible, then it must be rejected as work of mankind and corruption.
In the end, I thank to Madam Jessica for participating in a friendly and respectful Christian Muslim Dialogue, I am sure that readers of this Christian Muslim Dialogue will also have learnt some truth about the two greatest religions of the world i.e. Christianity and Islam.
Regards,
Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
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