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Here I want to deal with Mushtaq’s final two question before asking some of my own. Again, his questions are in italic.
4-MUSHTAQ:
Your these man made words [Trinity] are totally Unbiblical and create confusion “Blessed Jesus is the Son within the Trinity”. From Adam to Moses and Blessed Jesus, not even a single Prophet taught his nation these words to clarify concept of God.
I have also heard these words first time from you. Bible uses words “Son of God”, Bible doesn’t use words “Son within God”. After the invention of Trinity in Council of 4th century, The God has become Triune God and “Son of God” has become “Son of Triune God”. You know Triune God has three persons, so Son of Triune God means Son of three persons? Son of Two persons? Or Son of one person? This man made confusion resulted by man made Triune God can be resolved if you use any of the following options:
Option 1: Son of Triune God means Son of father, Son of Son (Grand Son of God) and Son of Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit is 2nd father in Trinity).
Option 2: Son of Triune God means Son of Father only, Father is equivalent to Triune God. Father and Son are one and same. So when second member of Triune God crucified and died, Father was also crucified and died.
Option 3: Son of Triune God means Son of first part of Triune God. Father is first part of Triune God, as already demonstrated above.
Option 4: Son of Triune God means ….. to be told by you, if you disagree with all above three options.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 72-74
Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful?
JH
Certainly the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in Scripture, but there are so many places where the OT and Jesus describe God in the plural, that one can see where the Fathers drew their inspiration from.
The OT further specifies the nature of divine plurality by identifying the three persons of the Godhead. These three persons are all distinguished from each other, and yet, in various ways, are identified as God: the Father (e.g. Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16, 64:8, Malachi 2:10); the person variously designated as the Messenger of the LORD (Heb. Malakh Yahweh), Word, or Son of God (e.g. Genesis 16:7-14, 21:17-18, 22:9-18, 28:10-22 (cf. Genesis 31:11-13), 32:22-32 (cf. Hosea 12:3-4); Exodus 3, 13:21 (cf. 14:19), 23:20-22; Numbers 22:21-41; Judges 2:1-5, 6:7-24, 13:3-22, 2 Samuel 24:16; Psalm 2, 110:1, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 63:9; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Proverbs 30:4; Zechariah 1:10-11, 12:8; Malachi 3:1); and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God (e.g. Nehemiah 9:20; Job 26:13, 33:4; Psalm 104:30, 106:32-33, 139:1-24, 143:10; 2 Samuel 23:1-3; Isaiah 11:2, 40:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Micah 2:7).
To say that writing of God as Trinity is ‘unbiblical’ is not supported by these passages. Indeed, given them, it is hard to see how Islam can support the claim that God is a single person.
As the Son was the Word Incarnate, fully-human and fully-divine, it is quite wrong to say that when the Incarnate Word died, the Godhead died; the Incarnate Word died and rose again; the Father and the Spirit were not Incarnate and were not crucified; nor was the Divinity of the Word dead.
5-MUSHTAQ:
I am presenting this part for information /reference only to show that God is not author of confusion and all Christian world is united in belief of ONE God taught by Prophets & Blessed Jesus; but Christian world was divided and still is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity:-
Nontrinitarianism (or antitrinitarianism) refers to Christian belief systems which reject the doctrine of the Trinity as not having scriptural origin. Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Blessed Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and phesus. Nontrinitarianism was later renewed in the Gnosticism of the Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.
Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Blessed Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.
Islam, which considers Blessed Jesus a prophet but not divine, teaches the absolute indivisibility of a supremely sovereign and transcendent god, and is distinctly antitrinitarian as several verses of the Koran teach that the doctrine of Trinity is blasphemous.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 112 – Al-Ikhlas. Verse 1-4.
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
JH
All the heresies you mention are just that – heresies. They are not orthodox, and they are not of the Spirit of Truth. Islamic belief is incompatible with the teachings of the prophets as listed above, and with the Fathers of the Church. It rejects the self-revelation of Jesus in preference for false witness.
Let me conclude with some teachings of the possibly the greatest of the early Fathers:
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.
“If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority… There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father” (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification…” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7)
The point here, Mushtaq, is that you are proceeding not according to the Christian method of divining truth, but according to the mistaken view that the Bible can be read apart from the tradition of which it is a part. This you may see if you answer three questions of my own.
1. Did Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
2. By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
3. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
All Along the Watchtower 
I suggest a reading of the book called The Two Bayblons
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I suggest reading something a little more up to date than a nineteenth century anti-Catholic polemic.
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is it anti-catholic, because it mentions why trinity is found in places devoid of Christianity?, a problem for the Jesuits?. So it searches for source. He makes more sense then the idea all for one by the three musketeers.
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No, it is anti-Catholic because, if you read about him, Hislop was anti-Catholic and writing for the anti-Catholic league. He nowhere references the Cappadocian Fathers or St Cyril or St Athanasius, neither does he mention the earlier Fathers such as Irenaeus or Tertullian, who all helped explicate St John’s Gospel’s opening chapter. Anti-Catholicism rarely seem to understand that some of these men were taught by those who taught the Apostles, and that they are part of the same tradition to which we owe the Canon of Scripture itself. Hislop is, I fear, very out of date, and his prejudices undermine any claims he has to anything save disrespect.
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I have 2 questions for our Islamic friends: Where is the outrage in the Islamic world as Assad in Syria rules fellow Muslims with rape, torture and murder ? What do you have to say about the over 100 verses in Koran that justifies lying to and cheating non believers and justifying the murder of non believers and even demanding that as a condition of faith?
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Very, very good Jess. You’ve certainly done your research.
S.
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Thank you Struans. I thought that as the questions were ones we might all meet, it would be useful to try to answer them in a series of posts. All contributions welcome – and I am sure Rob will have things to contribute too 🙂 x
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I have responded briefly to Mushtaq in “Where Prayer Has Been Valid”. In this tread he gave his email and I have sent him an extended Biblical study I wrote on the Trinity.
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Excellent Rob – I knew you would have something suitable for him 🙂 x
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Very well done indeed, Jess. This is so far over my knowledge level that I most gape in awe, and learn, although it is certainly ontrack with what I believe and always have, as it tracks with what the church teaches, and always has.
Outstanding 🙂
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Thank you. I shall be interested in what our new friend has to say by way of reply.
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As shall I. The comment (Mark’s ?) on part one was fascinating as well.
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Wasn’t it? I loved it, so much there.
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Very, very informative.
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Aye good sister Jess, dont call his belifs heresy, he might fly a plane into your blog.
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He’s been very polite and courteous Bosco.
Hope you are well?
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I trust you are well and yours too. Im tired as a beated dog. Im packing to go back to elsinore. i remodeled a house across the street also. So im back and forth across the street all day doing little things and talking about ideas and how much money to give me. Im dehydrated and thirsty. And i have to make the long drive back to 105 degree temps in the high desert elsinore. I havent even taken down my computer, obviously.
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You work so hard Bosco – take care 🙂 x
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My compliments to you, Jess, and Mushtaq for starting this extremely helpful conversation.
Having come into Christianity via the philosophical discussion of God’s existence, I too had to grapple with the Trinity: arguments such as Aquinas’ Five Ways prove the existence of one God, but say nothing about a Trinity (which is a truth revealed not derived from natural reason).
Two things helped me think this through. First -and most important- there should be something shocking about the claim that God is a Trinity. Jesus’ disciples were Jews to whom the idea of any sort of attack on the oneness of God would have been as shocking as the idea of shirk to a Muslim. And yet their clear experience of the divinity in Jesus and the Holy Spirit just forced them to reflect on how to express that ‘complexity’. That reflection starts in the Bible and reaches its fulfilment in the doctrine of the Trinity, but remains a mystery: we know that Father Son and Holy Ghost are God; we know that we believe in one God, not three, there are various other things we also know to say and not to say. But it remains a mystery, a truth that escapes our understanding as creatures.
Secondly, Christianity (certainly Catholicism) takes seriously the power of human reason to discover truths about God: not complete truths, but truths which at least make us receptive to revelation. As I noted above, the proofs of God’s existence (generally) prove that one God exists. However, the best that natural reason can do without the aid of revelation (which can be seen particularly in Plato and neo-Platonism) also suggests a certain ‘complexity’ in the ground of the universe (eg in the three parts of Plato’s creation myth in the Timaeus (the Demiurge, the Ideas and the Chora (roughly, the ‘matter’ or space which is used to provide the basis for creation); in the neo-Platonism of Plotinus, the One, Intellect and Soul). So when the Church, grapples with how to express the encounter with Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God, it turns not to the polytheism of popular religion, but to the monotheism of philosophical reflection, where it finds (albeit imperfectly) a similar grappling with the oneness and ‘complexity’ of the divine.
(And of course, as Jess states, none of this can be properly discussed, at least from a Catholic viewpoint, without reflection on the nature of the Church as an authoritative interpreter of revelation.)
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Thank you so much dear friend 🙂
I appreciate your comments, and hope they will help others as much as they have helped me.
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Very thankful for your input here good friend, and for the compiling of much related informative articles. This is one of those doctrines that a great many of us believe Scripture provides sufficient evidence to come to a sound conclusion, but…
It is evident that throughout history, many have also refuted this doctrine, evidenced by the revision to Creeds. e.g. If we limited our scope to only the Apostle’s Creed, some would argue there’s little evidence of their belief in the Trinity. But as we follow the growth of these confessions of Church History, the Creeds begin to unfold the Church’s stance in defence against heresy, one such included the denial of the Trinity.
I read recently one author’s rebuke of this inferred progressive understanding of the Bible’s teaching on God. This author assumes that the early church believed that only the Father is trulyGod, and later years adapted to include the Son, and later still, the Holy Spirit. The article’s point was to insinuate that one day soon there will be a fourth member of Deity, Mary. (just to throw something in involving your recent posts).
In any event, you do a very good job here of being fair, but insistent that Scripture sufficiently supports a Triune God, and that there is evidence from the earliest writings of the Church Fathers to lead us to confidently know we are sound in our understanding of this doctrine.
Thanks again Jess.
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Thank you Madam Jessica for allocating a second dedicated page for our mutually respectful and friendly dialogue. Yes its good to divide it into part2 to avoid from extra ordinary length. I am writing reply to part1, after that then I shall post here my reply. It will have two parts, Part1 full reply and Part2 Summary. If you reply only Summary, even that will be enough for me to keep continue dialogue. Replying Summary will also eliminate huge size and complications in dialogue.
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Pingback: St. John of Damascus on Ishmaelite’s as a Heresy | PAST YESTERDAY
Hi i am going to put reply. its some long, i do not know maximum word count limit to upload here, i try, if there were difficulties, i shall divide it into some parts.
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PART 1 OF 4
Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
Reply Date: 06 Oct 2013:
Full and detailed reply to Madam Jessica
From: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
Thanks Madam Jessica for dialogue with hard work and dedication. Delay in reply is not important, answer is important and you are a sincere devoted one in this regard. I know you are providing your arguments for my betterment and goodness; I am also providing my arguments and proofs for your goodness and betterment, so it is a very pleasant and friendly dialogue.
Here I want to deal with Mushtaq’s final two question before asking some of my own. Again, his questions are in italic.
4-MUSHTAQ:
Your these man made words [Trinity] are totally Unbiblical and create confusion “Blessed Jesus is the Son within the Trinity”. From Adam to Moses and Blessed Jesus, not even a single Prophet taught his nation these words to clarify concept of God.
I have also heard these words first time from you. Bible uses words “Son of God”, Bible doesn’t use words “Son within God”. After the invention of Trinity in Council of 4th century, The God has become Triune God and “Son of God” has become “Son of Triune God”. You know Triune God has three persons, so Son of Triune God means Son of three persons? Son of Two persons? Or Son of one person? This man made confusion resulted by man made Triune God can be resolved if you use any of the following options:
Option 1: Son of Triune God means Son of father, Son of Son (Grand Son of God) and Son of Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit is 2nd father in Trinity).
Option 2: Son of Triune God means Son of Father only, Father is equivalent to Triune God. Father and Son are one and same. So when second member of Triune God crucified and died, Father was also crucified and died.
Option 3: Son of Triune God means Son of first part of Triune God. Father is first part of Triune God, as already demonstrated above.
Option 4: Son of Triune God means ….. to be told by you, if you disagree with all above three options.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 72-74
Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful?
J-1:
JH
Certainly the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in Scripture, but there are so many places where the OT and Blessed Jesus describe God in the plural, that one can see where the Fathers drew their inspiration from.
The OT further specifies the nature of divine plurality by identifying the three persons of the Godhead. These three persons are all distinguished from each other, and yet, in various ways, are identified as God: the Father (e.g. Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16, 64:8, Malachi 2:10);
M-1:
I have following six (6) answers:
Answer 1: (Extra questions)
First of all, I repeat my offer to you that if you are unwilling to answer my any question, please let me know in plain words so that I may add it in list of pending questions to be discussed later. Alas! You again paid no heed to my advice to keep our dialogue smart & organized (though still I can say that it is nice and friendly).
Sorry to say, again you totally ignored the question that I asked and answered the following questions which I didn’t ask:
Is God described in the plural in OT? Was it inspiration for Fathers? Does OT identify three persons of the Godhead?
Your these additional questions that you put as “answers” to my questions, I have to address and make our dialogue heavy weight, whereas it is better for both of us to try best to keep our Dialogue Lightweight & to the point Dialogue, its easy way is to always keep open door for List of pending questions to be discussed later. Here I repeat my questions that went unanswered by you:
Is the phrase “Son within the Trinity” totally Unbiblical? From Adam to Moses and Blessed Jesus, did any Prophet hear or speak “Son within the Trinity”? Bible uses words “Son of God”, but does Bible use words “Son within God”? Is it heresy to use “Son within Trinity” or “Son within God” in place of “Son of God”? Son of Triune God means Son of three persons? Son of Two persons? Or Son of one person?
This man made confusion resulted by man made Triune God can be resolved if you use any of the following options:
Option 1: Son of Triune God means Son of father, Son of Son (Grand Son of God) and Son of Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit is 2nd father in Trinity).
Option 2: Son of Triune God means Son of Father only, Father is equivalent to Triune God. Father and Son are one and same. So when second member of Triune God crucified and died, Father was also crucified and died.
Option 3: Son of Triune God means Son of first part of Triune God. Father is first part of Triune God, as already demonstrated above.
Option 4: Son of Triune God means ….. to be told by you, if you disagree with all above three options.
Answer 2: (Singular and Plural are not same)
You claim that Bible describe “God in the plural” and “divine plurality”.
Have you read “Singular” and “Plural”? Have you ever hear of “contradiction”?
One thing which is Singular, cannot be plural, however, its parts may be plural.
Many things that are plural, cannot be singular, until they combine to make separate parts of same thing.
God is ONE as taught by Prophets from Adam till Moses and Blessed Jesus. Number One (1) was used. Not even a single Prophet used number three (3) to define concept of God.
Answer 3: (Majestic Plural & Early church Fathers):
Plural God or Majestic Plural has already been discussed in detail in Part 1, so no need to discuss it again here.
Early Church fathers also have been discussed in detail in Part 1, so again no need to repeat same discussion here.
Here however, one by one, I may discuss the OT verses that you quoted
Answer 4: (Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Old Testament):
“Father” is used in OT in meanings of Creator.
“Son” is used in OT in meanings of love and affection, not applied to Blessed Jesus alone.
“Holy Spirit” is used in meanings of Angel.
We see in many passages in the Bible “Son of God” which signifies love and affection, nearness to God, not applied to Blessed Jesus alone.
In view of these passages, it is proved that “Son of God” in Bible doesn’t necessarily mean Second member of Triune God.
If we accept interpretation of Trinitarian Christians that “Son of God”, “Firstborn” and “Begotten Son” mean a member of Triune God, and then it will mean that Israel is part of Trinity, Solomon is part of Trinity, Ephraim is part of Trinity, David is part of Trinity and even common people are also Sons of God and are parts of Trinity.
Hence “Son of God” or “God as father” in OT is no proof of first member of Triune God or second member of Triune God. Presence of “Son of God” and God as Father in OT doesn’t help Trinitarian Christians, but it helps to Unitarian Christians and Muslims to disprove Trinity.
Let’s see these verses:
Many Prophets and we people are called in the Bible also sons and children of God. Read Exodus 4:22. *And thou (Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh. Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.”
Here is Jacob (Israel) His firstborn son.
In II Samuel 7:13-14 or I Chronicle 22:10,
“He (Solomon) shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son…”
You will see sons and daughters of God (II Corinthians 6:18): “And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty'”
It will be confusing if you read Jeremiah 31:9: “I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my first born.”
In Exodus 4:22 Israel was called first born, too. Who is now the real firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?
Common people can be children of God; read Deut. 14: 1 “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”
Common people can also be called first born read Romans 8:29. “For whom he did fore know he also did predestinate be conformed to the image of his Son, the he might be the firstborn of many brethren.”
If all are firstborn, what is Blessed Jesus then? He is the only begotten son of God?
Long before Blessed Jesus was born, God said to David (Psalm 2:7): “I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” So David is also God’s begotten Son and part of Trinity?
The meaning of Son of God is not literal but metaphorical. It could be any one who is beloved by God. Blessed Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45,48) “That you may be the children of your Father”; and “Be ye therefore perfect. even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”
For the case of Holy Spirit, it is used in meanings of “Angel”, not in meanings of third member of Triune God. Read (Luke 22:43) Here an angel appeared to Blessed Jesus to strengthen him: “And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.”
Same is also mentioned in Quran, God strengthen Blessed Jesus with Holy Spirit.
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 87.
And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto BLESSED JESUS, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
Bible and Quran agree that Blessed Jesus was supported by angel, then Blessed Jesus cannot be God, because God doesn’t need support and strengthens from angels, rather it is God which provides support and strengthen to angels.
Now to confirm identity of Holy Spirit as angel; we compare two passages of Bible:
Read Matthew 1:18. “Now the birth of Blessed Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”
Compare now with Luke 1:26& 27.
“And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”
So in the miraculous birth of Blessed Jesus, Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. Who is the Holy Ghost then? The Holy Ghost is then the angel Gabriel !, Not third member of Triune God also full God in every respect.
Answer 5: (Son within Trinity & Son within God is heresy):
Earlier I have shown that Unitarian Christians are not heretics since they simply follow blessed Jesus. But now interesting situation has arisen that I have heard some “heretic” words first time from Madam Jessica. These are “Son within Trinity” which means “Son within God”, everyone knows Bible always uses “Son of God”, Bible never uses “Son within God”, or Son within Trinity, therefore for corruption well known established belief “Son of God” into “Son within God”, Madam Jessica has RISK to become heretic. If she is not heretic, how can she call Unitarian Christians heretic who simply follow blessed Jesus on nature of God?
Answer 6: (One by one discussion on OT verses):
Deuteronomy 32:6
6 Do you thus requite the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
Remarks= Here Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 63:16
16 For thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; thou, O Lord, art our Father, our Redeemer from of old is thy name
Remarks=Here again, Father is being used in meaning of “Creator” & Master, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 64:8
8 Yet, O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Malachi 2:10
10 Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
J-2:
the person variously designated as the Messenger of the LORD (Heb. Malakh Yahweh), Word, or Son of God (e.g. Genesis 16:7-14, 21:17-18,
M-2:
Genesis 16:7-14
7 The angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, maid of Sar′ai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sar′ai.” 9 The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will so greatly multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her, “Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ish′mael;[a] because the Lord has given heed to your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.” 13 So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “Thou art a God of seeing”; for she said, “Have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing him?”[b] 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-la′hai-roi;[c] it lies between Kadesh and Bered.
Remarks=Here angel is telling good news to Hagar “you are with child”, angle is not telling her that she has a child which is second member of Triune God or full and complete God in every respect.
Genesis 21:17-18
17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.”
Remarks=Here angle is calling Hagar to hold lad fast in hands, angel is not telling here about second member of Triune God.
J-3:
Genesis 22:9-18, 28:10-22
M-3:
Genesis 22:9-18
9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. 10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place The Lord will provide;[a] as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” 15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”
Remarks=Here is no mention of first member or second member of Triune God. It states only that Abraham wanted to sacrifice his Son on order of God, an angel sent him message of God and stopped him from doing so and God blessed him.
Genesis 28:10-22
10 Jacob left Beer-sheba, and went toward Haran. 11 And he came to a certain place, and stayed there that night, because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones of the place, he put it under his head and lay down in that place to sleep. 12 And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! 13 And behold, the Lord stood above it[a] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your descendants; 14 and your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and by you and your descendants shall all the families of the earth bless themselves.[b] 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done that of which I have spoken to you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the Lord is in this place; and I did not know it.” 17 And he was afraid, and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.” 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone which he had put under his head and set it up for a pillar and poured oil on the top of it. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel;[c] but the name of the city was Luz at the first. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear, 21 so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God, 22 and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God’s house; and of all that thou givest me I will give the tenth to thee.”
Remarks=Here a dream of Jacob is mentioned at Bethel, he saw a ladder in dream reaching to sky, God giving him good news of blessing. Jacob rose after dream and makes a pillar considering this place a holy. In this passage, there is no mention of first member or second member of Triune God or any person of Trinity.
J-4:
(cf. Genesis 31:11-13), 32:22-32
M-4:
Genesis 31:11-13
11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am!’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see, all the goats that leap upon the flock are striped, spotted, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go forth from this land, and return to the land of your birth.’”
Remarks=Here Angel is providing message in dream to return to land of birth, here angel is not teaching to learn three persons of Trinity.
Genesis 32:22-32
22 The same night he arose and took his two wives, his two maids, and his eleven children, and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 He took them and sent them across the stream, and likewise everything that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob’s thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” 27 And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then he said, “Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel,[a] for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Tell me, I pray, your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peni′el,[b] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” 31 The sun rose upon him as he passed Penu′el, limping because of his thigh. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the sinew of the hip which is upon the hollow of the thigh, because he touched the hollow of Jacob’s thigh on the sinew of the hip.
Remarks= This passage again is no proof of Trinity or three persons of God. This passage tells Jacob Wrestles at Peniel, and it is blasphemy to claim to wrestle with God, defeat him, to see God face to face. It is not only a Blasphemy, but this passage also contradicts Bible and Quran as well:
Blessed Jesus said (John 4:24): .,God is a Spirit…” and (John 5:37): “…ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” How can you see a spirit then? Also, (I Timothy 6: 16): ‘. . .whom no man hath seen, nor can see…,’ So what you can see is never God.
Our Holy Quran says (Surah 6:103): ,,Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtle. the Aware.”
J-5:
(cf. Hosea 12:3-4); Exodus 3, 13:21 (cf. 14:19), 23:20-22;
M-5:
Hosea 12:3-4
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. 4 He strove with the angel and prevailed, he wept and sought his favor. He met God at Bethel, and there God spoke with him[a]
Remarks=Strove with God and strove with angel, either it is internal contradiction, or he first strove with God and then with angel. Here is no mention of two or three persons of Triune God.
Exodus 13:21
21 And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night;
Remarks=It is blasphemy to say that Lord walked, it asserts that God has legs, and also it contradicts Bible one which is seen, cannot be God. Blessed Jesus said (John 4:24): .,God is a Spirit…” and (John 5:37): “…ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” How can you see a spirit then? Also, (I Timothy 6: 16): ‘. . .whom no man hath seen, nor can see…,’ So what you can see is never God.
Our Holy Quran says (Surah 6:103): ,,Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtle. the Aware.”
Exodus 14:19
19 Then the angel of God who went before the host of Israel moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them,
Remarks=Here angel went, not third member of Triune God or third person of Trinity, it makes no help to Trinitarian Christians.
Exodus 23:20-22
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place which I have prepared. 21 Give heed to him and hearken to his voice, do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him. 22 “But if you hearken attentively to his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
Remarks= Here an angel is being sent as a guard and the conquest of Canaan is Promised. Here third member of Triune God or third person of Trinity is not mentioned.
J-6:
Numbers 22:21-41; Judges 2:1-5,
M-6:
Numbers 22:21-41
21 So Balaam rose in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. 22 But God’s anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the way as his adversary. Now he was riding on the ass, and his two servants were with him. 23 And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road, with a drawn sword in his hand; and the ass turned aside out of the road, and went into the field; and Balaam struck the ass, to turn her into the road. 24 Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path between the vineyards, with a wall on either side. 25 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she pushed against the wall, and pressed Balaam’s foot against the wall; so he struck her again. 26 Then the angel of the Lord went ahead, and stood in a narrow place, where there was no way to turn either to the right or to the left. 27 When the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she lay down under Balaam; and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he struck the ass with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” 29 And Balaam said to the ass, “Because you have made sport of me. I wish I had a sword in my hand, for then I would kill you.” 30 And the ass said to Balaam, “Am I not your ass, upon which you have ridden all your life long to this day? Was I ever accustomed to do so to you?” And he said, “No.”
31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed his head, and fell on his face. 32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why have you struck your ass these three times? Behold, I have come forth to withstand you, because your way is perverse before me; 33 and the ass saw me, and turned aside before me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, surely just now I would have slain you and let her live.” 34 Then Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, “I have sinned, for I did not know that thou didst stand in the road against me. Now therefore, if it is evil in thy sight, I will go back again.” 35 And the angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men; but only the word which I bid you, that shall you speak.” So Balaam went on with the princes of Balak.
36 When Balak heard that Balaam had come, he went out to meet him at the city of Moab, on the boundary formed by the Arnon, at the extremity of the boundary. 37 And Balak said to Balaam, “Did I not send to you to call you? Why did you not come to me? Am I not able to honor you?” 38 Balaam said to Balak, “Lo, I have come to you! Have I now any power at all to speak anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that must I speak.” 39 Then Balaam went with Balak, and they came to Kir′iath-hu′zoth. 40 And Balak sacrificed oxen and sheep, and sent to Balaam and to the princes who were with him.
Remarks= Here is story of Balaam, the Donkey, and the Angel. While riding donkey, Balaam saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed his head, and fell on his face. Angel permitted him to went on with the princes of Balak. Here “Angel of Lord” is mentioned, here “Third member of Triune God” or third person of Trinity is not mentioned. Assuming so, is corruption in meanings.
Judges 2:1-5
2 Now the angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up from Egypt, and brought you into the land which I swore to give to your fathers. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed my command. What is this you have done? 3 So now I say, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall become adversaries[a] to you, and their gods shall be a snare to you.” 4 When the angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the people of Israel, the people lifted up their voices and wept. 5 And they called the name of that place Bochim;[b] and they sacrificed there to the Lord.
Remarks=Here “Angel of Lord” is speaking to people of Israel, not third member of Triune God or third person of Trinity. It is no proof of Trinity.
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J-7:
Judges 6:7-24, 13:3-22, 2 Samuel 24:16;
M-7:
Judges 6:7-24
7 When the people of Israel cried to the Lord on account of the Mid′ianites, 8 the Lord sent a prophet to the people of Israel; and he said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I led you up from Egypt, and brought you out of the house of bondage; 9 and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians, and from the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you, and gave you their land; 10 and I said to you, ‘I am the Lord your God; you shall not pay reverence to the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.’ But you have not given heed to my voice.”
The Call of Gideon
11 Now the angel of the Lord came and sat under the oak at Ophrah, which belonged to Jo′ash the Abiez′rite, as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press, to hide it from the Mid′ianites. 12 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, you mighty man of valor.” 13 And Gideon said to him, “Pray, sir, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this befallen us? And where are all his wonderful deeds which our fathers recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has cast us off, and given us into the hand of Mid′ian.” 14 And the Lord turned to him and said, “Go in this might of yours and deliver Israel from the hand of Mid′ian; do not I send you?” 15 And he said to him, “Pray, Lord, how can I deliver Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manas′seh, and I am the least in my family.” 16 And the Lord said to him, “But I will be with you, and you shall smite the Mid′ianites as one man.” 17 And he said to him, “If now I have found favor with thee, then show me a sign that it is thou who speakest with me. 18 Do not depart from here, I pray thee, until I come to thee, and bring out my present, and set it before thee.” And he said, “I will stay till you return.”
19 So Gideon went into his house and prepared a kid, and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour; the meat he put in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and brought them to him under the oak and presented them. 20 And the angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” And he did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and there sprang up fire from the rock and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight. 22 Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord; and Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you; do not fear, you shall not die.” 24 Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord, and called it, The Lord is peace. To this day it still stands at Ophrah, which belongs to the Abiez′rites.
Remarks= In this passage, different works of “Angel of Lord” ate mentioned as; angel of the Lord came, angel of the Lord appeared, angel of God said, angel of the Lord reached, angel of the Lord vanished. It doesn’t say that Third member of Triune God or third person of Trinity came and reached. Moreover, Is angel the third person of Trinity? It is also not told here.
Judges 13:3-22
3 And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have no children; but you shall conceive and bear a son. 4 Therefore beware, and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, 5 for lo, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from birth; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hand of the Philistines.” 6 Then the woman came and told her husband, “A man of God came to me, and his countenance was like the countenance of the angel of God, very terrible; I did not ask him whence he was, and he did not tell me his name; 7 but he said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son; so then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from birth to the day of his death.’”
8 Then Mano′ah entreated the Lord, and said, “O, Lord, I pray thee, let the man of God whom thou didst send come again to us, and teach us what we are to do with the boy that will be born.” 9 And God listened to the voice of Mano′ah, and the angel of God came again to the woman as she sat in the field; but Mano′ah her husband was not with her. 10 And the woman ran in haste and told her husband, “Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me.” 11 And Mano′ah arose and went after his wife, and came to the man and said to him, “Are you the man who spoke to this woman?” And he said, “I am.” 12 And Mano′ah said, “Now when your words come true, what is to be the boy’s manner of life, and what is he to do?” 13 And the angel of the Lord said to Mano′ah, “Of all that I said to the woman let her beware. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing; all that I commanded her let her observe.”
15 Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, “Pray, let us detain you, and prepare a kid for you.” 16 And the angel of the Lord said to Mano′ah, “If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the Lord.” (For Mano′ah did not know that he was the angel of the Lord.) 17 And Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” 18 And the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Mano′ah took the kid with the cereal offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord, to him who works[a] wonders.[b] 20 And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar while Mano′ah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground.
21 The angel of the Lord appeared no more to Mano′ah and to his wife. Then Mano′ah knew that he was the angel of the Lord. 22 And Mano′ah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.”
Remarks= This passage tells that Angel of God came to Mano′ah and his wife in the form of a man, angel talked with them, they didn’t recognize him as angel. However, there is internal contradiction between verse 21 and verse 22. Verse 21 says Mano′ah knew that he was angel, and verse 22 calls this angel God. The contradictions in Bible is not an unusual thing, but a routine matter. Lots of contradictions have been indicated and are available.
2 Samuel 24:16
16 And when the angel stretched forth his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Arau′nah the Jeb′usite.
Remarks=Here Lord forbids an angel to destroy Jerusalem. Where is Trinity here? Three persons?
J-8:
Psalm 2, 110:1, Isaiah 7:14,
M-8:
Psalm 2
2 Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and his anointed, saying, 3 “Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord has them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 “I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.” 7 I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.” 10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, with trembling 12 kiss his feet,[a] lest he be angry, and you perish in the way; for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Remarks=Here God is addressing David “today I have begotten you”. It shows that Blessed Jesus is not the ONLY begotten Son of God. It contradicts Trinity; since if begotten by God is condition to be member of Trinity, then David also passes this condition.
Psalm 110:1
A Psalm of David.
110 The Lord says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.”
Remarks=Here simply one master is talking with other master. It is not telling here that one member of Triune God or person of Trinity is talking with other member of triune God or Trinity.
Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman[a] shall conceive and bear[b] a son, and shall call his name Imman′u-el.[c]
Remarks=Here is a news for birth of a child. (It is Revised Standard Version Translation; and it doesn’t use Virgin woman here). Here it is not trelling that woman will bear second member of Triune God which will also be full and complete God in every respect.
J-9:
Isaiah 9:6, 63:9; Jeremiah 23:5-6;
M-9:
Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Remarks=This passage (if assumed about Blessed Jesus) has several problems for Trinitarian Christians. (i)Government was not on Blessed Jesus shoulder, he was neither king of country, nor governor of a province, if government means here spiritual government, then every saint and every prophet shares this and is not unique to Blessed Jesus (ii) Mighty God cannot be born as a child or Son because Mighty God is eternal, if Christians claim that human nature / human part of Blessed Jesus was born as a child, then this has not been explained here and it is a corruption in meanings. (iii) Everlasting father, if it refers to member of Triune God, shows that first member of Triune God was itself born as a child, who is then Father of Father? i.e Who is father of first member of Triune God? (iv) It can be treated as a general prophecy, to be told to any king when his son is born, and it has nothing to do with birth of second member of Triune God which is also full and complete God in every respect.
Isaiah 63:9
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted,[a] and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
Remarks=It is talking about an angel; it is not talking about third member of Triune God which is also full and complete God.
Jeremiah 23:5-6
5 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’
Remarks= It is talking about the righteous branch of David, which shall reign as king. It doesn’t mention here three members of Triune God.
J-10:
Proverbs 30:4; Zechariah 1:10-11, 12:8; Malachi 3:1);
M-10:
Proverbs 30:4
4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!
Remarks=(a)The passage is not talking about first member of Triune God (Father, since it doesn’t climb sky and then descend or wear water garments) also full and complete God in every respect or second member of Triune God (Since Blessed Jesus himself is Son and he has not son of his own) which is also full and complete God in every respect, but apparently about a man or prophet with miracles and with a son. Bible is full of Prophets with miracles, e.g. Elisha, Elijah, Moses, Solomon etc.
(b) Even false prophets would do wonders, as prophesied by Blessed Jesus himself (Matthew 24:24): “For there shall arise Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in as much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Therefore, this passga is also possible about a false prophet. (c)Even if it is accepted for Blessed Jesus, then where is evidence that his father (first member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect) performed all mentioned above works?
Zechariah 1:10-11
10 So the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered, ‘These are they whom the Lord has sent to patrol the earth.’ 11 And they answered the angel of the Lord who was standing among the myrtle trees, ‘We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth remains at rest.’
Remarks=It mentions angel of Lord and trees, not three persons or Trinity, or Triune God.
Zechariah 12:8
8 On that day the Lord will put a shield about the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, at their head.
Remarks=It is talking that house of David will become God, surely house is not part of Trinity and it doesn’t help Trinitarian Christians. It doesn’t say that second member of Triune God will earn flesh and bones and will appear in the form of a man.
Malachi 3:1
3 “Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.
Remarks=It is prophecy of a coming Messenger. Here is no mention of three lords. It indicates two Lords, which is a contradiction of recognized and established monotheism in Bible:
Then how many Lords are there? Two at least. This then is in contradiction with many passages in the Bible: (Deuteronomy 4 :39): “…that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is non else”; (Deuteronomy 6:4): “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”; (lsaiah 43: I 0- I 1): “. . .that ye may know and believe me. and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed. neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior”; (Isaiah 44:6): “Thus saith the Lord
. .. I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”: (Isaiah 45:18): ” For thus aith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it. he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
From Isaiah 45:18 alone we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and no one else. not even Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) participated in the creation.
In Mark 12:29 what Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) himself said:” And Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) answered him, the first of all the commandments is . Hear, O Israel, The lord our God is one lord, (l Corinthians”).:. .we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.” (I Timothy 2:5): “For there is one God. and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever).” Look to the expression” the man Christ Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever). Now you can either say that John 1:l is right and all these other verses are wrong or the reverse.
J-11:
and the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God (e.g. Nehemiah 9:20; Job 26:13, 33:4; Psalm 104:30,
M-11:
Nehemiah 9:20
20 Thou gavest thy good Spirit to instruct them, and didst not withhold thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Remarks=it mentions Spirit, but is it a Spirit as believed by Muslims and Unitarian Christians without concept of Trinity or a Spirit which is third member of Triune god and also full and complete God in every respect? It is not explained here, therefore, this verse cannot help Trinitarian Christians.
Job 26:13
13 By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.
Remarks=Where is third member of Triune God, which is also full and complete God at the same time?
Job 33:4
4 The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Remarks= Where is third member of Triune God, which is also full and complete God at the same time? Not explained, it may be a Spirit as believed by Unitarian Christians.
Psalm 104:30
30 When thou sendest forth thy Spirit,[a] they are created; and thou renewest the face of the ground.
Remarks= Where is third member of Triune God, which is also full and complete God at the same time? Not explained, it may be a Spirit as believed by Unitarian Christians.
J-12:
Psalm 106:32-33, 139:1-24, 143:10;
M-12:
Psalm 106:32-33
32 They angered him at the waters of Mer′ibah, and it went ill with Moses on their account; 33 for they made his spirit bitter, and he spoke words that were rash
Remarks= Where is third member of Triune God, which is also full and complete God at the same time? Not explained, it may be a Spirit as believed by Unitarian Christians.
Psalm 139:1-24
The Inescapable God
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
139 O Lord, thou hast searched me and known me! 2 Thou knowest when I sit down and when I rise up; thou discernest my thoughts from afar. 3 Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before a word is on my tongue, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou dost beset me behind and before, and layest thy hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! 9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, “Let only darkness cover me, and the light about me be night,” 12 even the darkness is not dark to thee, the night is bright as the day; for darkness is as light with thee. 13 For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful.[a] Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; 15 my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. 16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! 18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. When I awake, I am still with thee.[b] 19 O that thou wouldst slay the wicked, O God, and that men of blood would depart from me, 20 men who maliciously defy thee, who lift themselves up against thee for evil![c] 21 Do I not hate them that hate thee, O Lord? And do I not loathe them that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts! 24 And see if there be any wicked[d] way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting![e
Remarks= This so long passage contains only one line with Spirit: “I go from thy Spirit?”. So? What is its link with Trinity? How was Trinity proved from here? Where is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect?
Psalm 143:10
10 Teach me to do thy will, for thou art my God! Let thy good spirit lead me on a level path!
Remarks=Is this Spirit here in Unitarian Christians sense without citing Trinity? Or Does it tell that it is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect? No need to answer, answer is clear. It is no proof of Trinity.
J-13:
2 Samuel 23:1-3; Isaiah 11:2, 40:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Micah 2:7).
M-13:
2 Samuel 23:1-3
The Last Words of David
23 Now these are the last words of David: The oracle of David, the son of Jesse, the oracle of the man who was raised on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, the sweet psalmist of Israel:[a] 2 “The Spirit of the Lord speaks by me, his word is upon my tongue. 3 The God of Israel has spoken, the Rock of Israel has said to me: When one rules justly over men, ruling in the fear of God,
Remarks=It is talking about speech of Spirit of Lord. Is this Spirit here in Unitarian Christians sense without citing Trinity? Answer is clear we can see that it doesn’t tell that it is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect.
It is no proof of Trinity.
Isaiah 11:2
2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord
Remarks=Here are four times Spirit mentioned, but Is it One Spirit or Four spirits? It is unclear. One thing is of course clear that it doesn’t tell that it is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect. It is no proof of Trinity.
Isaiah 40:13
13 Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or as his counselor has instructed him?
Remarks=Does God (Spirit) needs to be directed? It is asking Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord? It is not claiming that it is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect. It is no proof of Trinity.
Ezekiel 11:5
5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and he said to me, “Say, Thus says the Lord: So you think, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind.
Remarks=Does God (Spirit) also fell on people like a man? Is this Spirit in Unitarian Christians sense or Trinitarian Christian sense? Decision could be possible if it claimed that it is third member of Triune God, but also full and complete God in every respect.
Micah 2:7
7 Should this be said, O house of Jacob? Is the Spirit of the Lord impatient? Are these his doings? Do not my words do good to him who walks uprightly?
Remarks= Spirit of the Lord becomes impatient like Spirit of a man waiting. Does it mean that there are two persons waiting in a man due to impatient spirit? No! Similalry, here this impatient spirit doesn’t mean second person /second member /second part of Triune God.
J-14:
To say that writing of God as Trinity is ‘unbiblical’ is not supported by these passages. Indeed, given them, it is hard to see how Islam can support the claim that God is a single person.
M-14:
I have following answers:
Answer 1:
Single Person is a word neither used by Blessed Jesus nor Blessed Muhummad, Why are you pasting pagan term (persons of Trinity) on prophets?
Answer 2:
I have addressed one by one all verses above. Here I shall make couple of comparisons.
(i)Comparison between Trinitarian & Unitarians on understandings on “Father”.
(ii)Comparison between OT nations and Trinitarians understandings on “Father”.
Let’s compare:
“Father” is used by Trinitarian Christians in meaning “First member of Triune God which is also fully God in every respect”.
Unitarian Christians understand its meaning “Creator”.
Can Trinitarian Christians claim that Unitarian Christians also understand and interpret “Father” as first member of Triune God? Answer is No. Why? Because such claim will reveal the ignorance and falsehood of Trinitarian Christians, therefore, they cannot and they will never dare to make such a claim.
Now repeat same question by comparing Trinitarian Christians and old nations.
“Father” is used by Prophets and their nations in OT in meanings of “Creator”.
“Father” is used by Trinitarian Christians in meaning “First member of Triune God”.
Can Trinitarian Christians claim that OT nations also understand and interpret “Father” as first member of Triune God which is also full and complete God? Answer is No. Why? Because such claim will reveal the ignorance and falsehood of Trinitarian Christians, therefore, they cannot and they will never dare to make such a claim. In this case, WHY Madam Jessica is presenting these verses to make readers believe that Old nations also interpret and understand Son of God and Father as second member and first member of Triune God?
Answer 3:
“Father” is used in OT in meaning of Creator. Trinitarian understand its meaning “First member of Triune God, also fully God in every respect”. There is no proof that Old nations understood “Father” in same meaning as Trinitarians.
Some differences between Old Testament understanding and Trinitarian Christians understandings:
Now repeat same with example of Unitarian Christians. From “Father”, Trinitarian Christians understand first member of Triune God
Now let’s take example “Son of God”.
Trinitarian Christians interpret “Son of God” is “Second Member of Triune God”.
What is meaning of “Son of God” in Old Testament?
Adam, Israel, Solomon, Ephraim, David and even common people are also called “Son of God”. Can Trinitarian Christians claim that “Son of God” in OT is “proof” of second member of Triune God? No, they cannot claim, because such claim will make Adam, Israel, Solomon, Ephraim, David and even common people persons of Trinity or members of Triune God.
Therefore, OT makes no help to Trinitarian Christians to prove that Old nations believed in Trinity. These were pagans of 4th century which believed in Trinity.
J-15:
As the Son was the Word Incarnate, fully-human and fully-divine, it is quite wrong to say that when the Incarnate Word died, the Godhead died; the Incarnate Word died and rose again; the Father and the Spirit were not Incarnate and were not crucified; nor was the Divinity of the Word dead.
M-15:
I have following Answers.
Answer 1:
Trinitarian Christians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “co-equal”, “co-eternal” and “same substance”. This belief is incorrect due to following reasons:
(a)As the Son was the Word Incarnate, Father and Holy Spirit are not incarnate, therefore, three persons are NOT co-equal.
(b)Second member of Triune God was fully-human and fully-divine, remaining two persons not, it is against violation of “co-equality”.
(c)Incarnate Word died and rose again, but same didn’t happen with first and third members of Triune God, it is against violation of “co-equality” of three persons.
(d)When the Incarnate Word died, the Godhead didn’t die. It means neither full Godhead nor part of Godhead incarnated into “Word”. “Word” was full human i.e. Blessed Jesus was full human and not a God.
(e)Father and the Spirit were not Incarnate and were not crucified; it is again proof that three members are not “co-equal”.
(f)At time of death, the Divinity of the Word was not dead. Then death of Blessed Jesus was an ordinary Human Sacrifice of a Mortal Man, it was not an extraordinary sacrifice by an Immortal God. Where is greatness in death of Blessed Jesus to pardon Sins and Atonement?
5-MUSHTAQ:
I am presenting this part for information /reference only to show that God is not author of confusion and all Christian world is united in belief of ONE God taught by Prophets & Blessed Jesus; but Christian world was divided and still is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity:-
Nontrinitarianism (or antitrinitarianism) refers to Christian belief systems which reject the doctrine of the Trinity as not having scriptural origin. Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Blessed Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and phesus. Nontrinitarianism was later renewed in the Gnosticism of the Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.
Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Blessed Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.
Islam, which considers Blessed Jesus a prophet but not divine, teaches the absolute indivisibility of a supremely sovereign and transcendent god, and is distinctly antitrinitarian as several verses of the Koran teach that the doctrine of Trinity is blasphemous.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 112 – Al-Ikhlas. Verse 1-4.
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
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Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
J-16:
JH
All the heresies you mention are just that – heresies. They are not orthodox, and they are not of the Spirit of Truth. Islamic belief is incompatible with the teachings of the prophets as listed above, and with the Fathers of the Church. It rejects the self-revelation of Blessed Jesus in preference for false witness.
M-16:
I have following three answers:
Answer 1:
Orthodoxy is to avoid number three in defining concept of God and Trinity, as done by Blessed Jesus and Prophets, but you define Orthodoxy as following pagans of fourth century who added number three in concept of God. Father has been used in meanings of Creator in Old Testament since times of Adam; Adam was also called Son of God without adding him in Trinity. Meaning and definition of Father as first member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect is invention of pagans of later centuries.
Christian belief is incompatible with Concept of Son of God established since times of Prophets, and early Church fathers were highly influenced by Logos Greek pagan philosophy of Word.
Answer 2:
You gave no comments on the objective of presenting these Unitarian Christians.
“God is not author of confusion and all Christian world is united in belief of ONE God taught by Prophets & Blessed Jesus; but Christian world was divided and still is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity”. Why? You gave no comments.
Answer 3:
Since I have already addressed “Unitarian Christians are not heretics” (From Unitarians I mean Christians who reject nothing in Christianity except Trinity). In Summary 1, therefore, no need to repeat again.
J-17:
Let me conclude with some teachings of the possibly the greatest of the early Fathers:
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian.
“If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority… There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father” (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
M-17:
I have six answers here:
Answer 1:
I have already addressed Church fathers in Summary 1, so no need to repeat same here.
Answer 2:
As Muslims we believe in Blessed Jesus, and Christians also believe in Blessed Jesus. Here are not words of Blessed Jesus, but of a Church father of 2nd century Origen (185-254) already influenced by Greek pagan philosophy of Logos. Now If Christians are to listen in basic requirement of salvation and concept of God, that it cannot be a Church father of 2nd Century, but Blessed Jesus himself. Blessed Jesus is the Source, the Church fathers of later centuries may be, or may not be heretic in eyes of Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant Churches. In the words of Summary # 1 of our dialogue;
“Early Church Fathers are not Superior to Blessed Jesus and Prophets”. It is true in defining basic requirement of salvation, concept of God, in this field, Origen is not authority, but Blessed Jesus and Prophets.
Answer 3:
Although you are referring here Origen, but perhaps you don’t know what problems were raised by him in Christianity? He became reason of many people from expelling from Church; I am astonished how can you cite him in a Christian Muslim Dialogue? You call him “greatest of the early Fathers” what greatness? Was there no any other better Church father that you could refer here? All these questions confirm what I have said above in Answer 2.
“Early Church Fathers are not Superior to Blessed Jesus and Prophets”.
Origen, or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254), [1] was a scholar, early Christian theologian and Church Father, [2] who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, philosophical theology, preaching, and spirituality. Some of his reputed teachings, such as the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, including perhaps even the devil (the apokatastasis),[3] and the subordination of the Son of God to God the Father, later became controversial among Christian theologians. A later group of Egyptian monks who came to be known as Origenists, and who believed in the preexistence of souls and the apokatastasis, were declared anathema (expelled from Church) in 553 AD. This condemnation is attributed to the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, though it does not appear in the council’s official minutes.[4] For this reason Origen was and is not called a “saint” in either the Catholic or Orthodox churches.
[1] The New Catholic Encyclopedia (Detroit: Gale, 2003). ISBN 978-0-7876-4004-0
[2] For instance, Pope Benedict XVI, in his Wednesday catecheses from March 7, 2007, to June 25, 2008, on the Church Fathers, devoted two talks to him.
[3] Patrides, C. A. (October–December 1967). “The salvation of Satan”. Journal of the History of Ideas 28 (4): 467–478. doi:10.2307/2708524. JSTOR 2708524. reprinted in Patrides, C. A. (1982) [1967]. “‘A principle of infinite love’: The salvation of Satan”. Premises and motifs in Renaissance literature. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. JSTOR 2708524.
[4] Philip Schaff, ed. (1994) [1885]. “The Anathemas Against Origen”. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series II, Volume XIV (The Seven Ecumenical Councils). Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers. ISBN 1-56563-116-1.
Answer 4:
Your “greatest of the early Fathers”, Origen is also a father of “Subordinationism”. To praise Origen and to call him “greatest” is in fact your favor to “Subordinationism”. In many Christian theological circles (mostly orthodox), subordinationism is treated as heresy. It violates Trinitarian belief that three members of Triune God are “co-equal” and “co-eternal” with the Father because they are of the same being or substance as the Father.
Subordinationism is a doctrine in Christian theology which holds that the Son and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to God the Father in nature and being. Subordinationism, in its various forms, was an Early Christian doctrine until the mid 4th century, when the Arian controversy was finally settled, after many decades of debates, with the formulation of the doctrine of Trinity.
Answer 5:
The greatest of the early Fathers, Origen claims Wisdom of God / Word of God /Blessed Jesus is eternal. This belief is contradicted by Crucifixion Doctrine, Since Word of God was hanged. And if you claim that Divine part / Divine nature of Blessed Jesus remained alive and only human part/ human nature of Blessed Jesus died at cross, then death of Blessed Jesus was ordinary death of a mortal man among death of ordinary billions of mortal men, daily hundreds of mortal men die on earth and so far millions of men have died on earth, there is nothing special in death of mortal man capable of dying. Everything is dying on earth; even our planet earth and great Sun are also dying. Everyone will die except eternal God. Therefore, death of Blessed Jesus on cross was an ordinary death of a mortal man, it was not an extraordinary death by Immortal Son of God or Eternal God himself.
Answer 6:
The greatest of the early Fathers, Origen claims: “it is through the Son that he is Father”. This claim is incorrect. We know that Father comes first, then Son and therefore, correct sequence is “it is through Father that he is Son”. His claim is as much nonsense as the claim of Trinitarian Christians that Father and Son are equal in Age in Trinity.
J-18:
“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
M-18:
What? The “reason” of “reason” is “reason”? I really couldn’t understand purpose of this passage what he wants to prove?
To facilitate understanding, delete extra words to discover the “reason” explained by this great church father:
“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, …, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, … , unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.”
He wants to say that Since Holy Spirit is eternal; therefore it is counted as member of Triune God. Of course God is eternal we all know, he wants to say that Holy Spirit has got this qualification and is eligible to be member of Triune God. It is not saying of Blessed Jesus or Prophets, but saying of a Heretic’s Father impressed from pagan philosophy, this father got expelled many people from Church due to his ideas, and yet is great church father!
J-19:
“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification…” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7)
M-19:
The Trinity word has been used here. He didn’t find this word in teachings of Blessed Jesus and Prophets, but copy pasted this word from Theophilus of Antioch. It needs to be considered that Theophilus of Antioch also didn’t have this word from Blessed Jesus and Prophets. Let’s see from where he derives this word? How Number “Three” came in Godhead of Christianity as this number was never told by Blessed Jesus and Prophets in context of Godhead? It is enough to have a brief look at (a) Theophilus of Antioch (Trinity Inventor) and (b) Philo of Alexandria (Hellenized Jew on Logos).
(a) Theophilus of Antioch:
The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word “Trinity” was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia) [1] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation.
According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God; the moon of man, whose death and resurrection are prefigured by the monthly changes of that luminary. The first three days before the creation of the heavenly bodies are types of the Trinity.
Theophilus explains the Trinity as follows:
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.
— Theophilus [1]
Alternatively, the references to the Logos and Sophia (wisdom) may be ideas taken from Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism. The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and heretical Jewish sects. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom (as feminine consort) is described as God’s Counsellor and Work mistress, who dwelt beside Him before the creation of the world.
(b) Philo of Alexandria:
Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[2] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[3] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo “the first-born of God.”[3] Philo also wrote that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated.”[4]
The Platonic Ideas were located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[3] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God’s instrument in the creation of the universe.[3]
[1] Theophilus, Apologia ad Autolycum, Book II, Chapter 15
[2] Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (2nd ed): Philo Judaeus, 1999.
[3] Frederick Copleston, A History of Philosophy, Volume 1, Continuum, 2003, pp. 458–462.
[4] Philo, De Profugis, cited in Gerald Friedlander, Hellenism and Christianity, P. Vallentine, 1912, pp. 114–115.
From this, we get following five conclusions:
[i] Theophilus of Antioch is the first Church father to use word Trinity in the late 2nd century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia).
He doesn’t give formal basic requirement of salvation, the concept of God {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God}
[ii] He uses Trinity in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation. The first three days before the creation of the heavenly bodies are types of the Trinity. He doesn’t use ten commandments of Moses, or saying of Blessed Jesus as source of number “three” in concept of God (term Trinity).
[iii] According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God; the moon of man. This is reflection of his pagan Sun god that sun is image of God. Of course 25 December was day of pagan sun god mithra, Sabbath was shifted to Sunday due to day of sun god. These are effects of pagans on Christianity; i.e. sun as image of god, Sunday and 25 December Christmas are not teachings of Blessed Jesus and Prophets, but of sun worshippers.
[iv] In “Trinity”, he also adds 4th person as the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.
[v] Alternatively, the references to the Logos and Sophia (wisdom) may be ideas taken from Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism. The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and heretical Jewish sects. This shows a pagan background of Trinity and not as a teaching of Prophets and Blessed Jesus.
J-20:
The point here, Mushtaq, is that you are proceeding not according to the Christian method of divining truth, but according to the mistaken view that the Bible can be read apart from the tradition of which it is a part.
M-20:
The point here, Jessica, is that Trinitarian Christians are proceeding not according to the Monotheism, first two commandments of Moses, Blessed Jesus call to worship “My God and Your God”, but according to the mistaken view that the number three can be added to define Godhead apart from the tradition of prophets and Blessed Jesus, that Father was understood to be first member of Triune God instead of Creator since the times of Adam, Son of God.
J-21:
This you may see if you answer three questions of my own.
1. Did Blessed Jesus say He was writing a book or founding a Church?
M-21:
My answer has following two Answers:
Answer 1:
No! Blessed Jesus didn’t say he was writing a book. He also didn’t say he was founding a Church.
Question is why?
Because Blessed Jesus himself said that he was sent only to the house of Israel. House of Israel had already books. (Matthew 15:24): “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Also (Matthew 1:21): “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Blessed Jesus; for he shall save his people from their sins.” (i.e. the Jews). Blessed Jesus also said that he came not to make changes but to fulfill the Law. (Matthew 5:17-18): “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” In Chapter 61.v6 of the Qur’an it states emphatically that Blessed Jesus came to the Jews.
But in Mark 16:15 Blessed Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
This contradicts what is mentioned above in Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 1:21. Very Important: Mark 16:9-20 has been expunged in many Bibles. The New American Standard Bible put this part in brackets and wrote the following commentary:
“Some of the oldest manuscripts omit Matthew verses 9 through 20.” The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures admits that certain ancient manuscripts add a long conclusion or a short conclusion after Mark 16:8 but some omit it entirely. The Revised Standard Version (By 32 Christian Scholars backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations) prints the following footnote: “Some of the most ancient authorities bring the book to a close at the end of verse 8:” This means also that the resurrection is not true as this is described in Mark 16:9.
But Blessed Jesus said in Matthew 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations.”
“All nations” must be explained as “all the twelve tribes of Israel;” otherwise it contradicts Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 1:21. In the New American Standard Bible and the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures it is not translated as “all nations” of the world, but as “all the nations,” which means some specific nations “the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Surah/Chapter 061 – As-Saff. Verse 14.
O ye who believe! Be Allah’s helpers, even as Blessed Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for Allah? They said: We are Allah’s helpers. And a party of the Children of ISRAEL believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost.
Answer 2:
Neither the name Judaism nor Christianity is found in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. No Israelite Prophet mentioned the word Judaism. Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) never claimed to establish Christianity on earth and never called himself a Christian. The word Christianity is mentioned only three times in the New Testament and first in Antioch.”
Later by King Agrippa II to Paul in Acts 26:28: “Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuades me to be a Christian.”
So the name Christian was first given by foes rather than friends. And finally by Peter in his letter to comfort the faithful in I Peter 4:16: “Yet if any man suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed. .. ”
-the first to be called Muslim on earth is not Muhammad but Abraham who submitted totally to Allah. But Islam as a way of life had been revealed to other prophets prior to Abraham like Adam and Noah. Then Islam follows as the way of life for all humanity.
Al Quran Chapter 5 Verse 3. … This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam …
J-22:
2. By what means was the nature of the Bible revealed to us?
M-22:
Discuss Old Testament and New Testament separately.
J-23:
3. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
M-23:
Answer to this question is not so simple, because we need to know full tradition and background of which this question is just a part. Therefore, other background questions must be addressed first before answering this question:
So we address one by one, this set of four questions:-
i. What was the teaching of Prophets on nature of God?
ii. What was the teaching of Blessed Jesus on nature of God?
iii. What was the teaching of Apostles on nature of God?
iv. What was the teaching of the disciples of the Apostles on the nature of God?
Corresponding to above three questions, I have three answers as given below:
Answer 1: (Prophets on nature of God)
Many passages in the Old Testament teach One God:
(Deuteronomy 4 :39): “…that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is non else”; (Deuteronomy 6:4): “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”; (lsaiah 43: 10- I 1): “. . .that ye may know and believe me. and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed. neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior”; (Isaiah 44:6): “Thus saith the Lord . .. I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”: (Isaiah 45:18): ” For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it. he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.”
From Isaiah 45:18 alone we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and no one else. not even Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) participated in the creation.
The Trinity formula [Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God, but these are not three gods, but One God] is not present in Old Testament and not even a single Prophet from Adam till Moses taught it to his nation, but belief in one God as detailed above.
It cannot be denied that Father, Son and Holy Spirit words are present in Old testament, but Prophets didn’t use it in meanings of Trinity. i.e. from Father, old testament prophets didn’t take meaning as first member of Triune God, from Son they didn’t understand that it is second member of Triune God and from Holy Spirit, they didn’t understand meaning third member of Triune God. Even Trinity, three persons, Triune God are absent there. Then it needs to be clarified, in which meanings father, son and Holy Spirit were used in Old Testament?
We take a start from Adam, the very first man and very first Prophet, accepted and respectable to both Muslims and Christians.
Adam didn’t speak and hear the concept of Christian God [The Trinity formula = Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God, but these are not three gods, but One God]. He believed in One God.
Adam, was created without a father and without a mother, Whose Son is Adam? Answer is; Adam is called Son of God in Luke 3:38: “Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God”.
So Does here “Son of God” means Second member of Triune God? Answer is No, surely Trinitarian Christians will agree that Adam is not a member of Trinity and “Son of God” as second person of Trinity is not same “Son of God” called Adam.
So it is first proof that Old Testament has no Trinity proof.
We shall now discuss next Biblical verses to show that in Old Testament, God Father, Son of God, Firstborn, Begotten son of God & Children of God are not used in meanings of first and second member of Triune God, but in meanings of (i)Creator (ii)Master (iii)Obedient (iv)Love (v)Affection & (vi)Nearness to God, and is not exclusive to Blessed Jesus alone.
If Adam is Son of God, then God is his Father, but this Father is in meanings of “Creator”, as other Bible verses also use God Father in meanings of Creator and not in meanings of Triune God.
Deuteronomy 32:6
6 Do you thus requite the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
Remarks= Here Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 63:16
16 For thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; thou, O Lord, art our Father, our Redeemer from of old is thy name
Remarks=Here again, Father is being used in meaning of “Creator” & Master, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 64:8
8 Yet, O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Malachi 2:10
10 Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
You should not accept the word “son” literally, because many Prophets are called “sons of God” and “children of God”
In the Bible. Read Exodus 4:22. “And thou (Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh, thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.”
Here it clearly states Jacob (Israel) is God’s firstborn son. Read now II Samuel 7:13-14 and I Chronicles 22:10.
“He (Solomon) shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be My son.”
It will be even more confusing when you read Jeremiah 31:9: “I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.” In Exodus 4:22 just now, Israel was called firstborn too. Who is the real firstborn? Israel or Ephraim? Common people can also be children of God; read Deuteronomy 14:1. “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”
Common people can also be called firstborn; read Romans 8:29.
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren.”
If all are firstborn, what is Blessed Jesus then? He is the only “begotten son of God. Long before Blessed Jesus was born, God said to David (Psalm 2.7): “I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art My son; this day have I begotten thee.” So David is also God’s begotten son, and he was before Blessed Jesus. You see the meaning of “son of God” is not literal but metaphorical. The Bible makes it clear that anyone who obeys God is beloved to God and is called son or children of God. Blessed Jesus also said that God is not only his Father, but also your Father as stated in Matthew 5:45,48.
“That ye may be the children of your Father”; and “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
As you can see in many passages of the Bible people are called “first born”, “begotten son”, “sons of God” and “children of God” which signify love and affection and nearness to God, and is not exclusive to Blessed Jesus alone. You will see sons and daughters of God (II Corinthians 6:18): “And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”. In view of these and other passages in the Bible, there is no reason whatsoever why Blessed Jesus (pbuh) should be regarded as the only son of God in a literal or unique sense.
You will see that whosoever obeys God’s injunctions is referred to as “son of God” as he is an obedient servant of God. Now read: Read Hebrews 7:3. “Without father, without mother without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto a son of God; abideth a priest continually.” Who is he?
The answer is in Hebrews 7:v1. “Melchisedic, King of Salem, Priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham…” He is more unique than Blessed Jesus and Adam (pbut). Why is he not preferred to be son of God or God himself?
What do we Muslims call Blessed Jesus then? We Muslims call him, “Blessed Jesus, the son of Mary” (pbut). No-one can argue and deny this. Absolutely! Nobody can deny it because it is an absolute fact!
Blessed Jesus (pbuh) called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God. Read Luke 4:41. “And devils came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the son of God. And he (Blessed Jesus) rebuking them suffered them not to speak.”
Can you see? He rebuked / scolded them for their saying so, because it was a lie they spoke. If it were true, then he would not have rebuked them. God appointed Blessed Jesus as a messenger to the Children of Israel as he stated many times as recorded in the Bible.
It is clear here that he refused to be called son of God and also by his own disciples. Read Luke 9:20 and 21.
“He, (Blessed Jesus) said unto them (the disciples) but whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, the Christ of God. And he
(Blessed Jesus) straightly charged (rebuked) them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing.”
You see, again Blessed Jesus rebuked the disciples here, as it was untrue. A prophet will never allow a lie to be told. Blessed Jesus, who was the Messiah, a prophet, was escalated from teacher to son of God, to Lord, and finally to God Himself. Read John 3:2 and John 6:14 where the actual status of Blessed Jesus is recorded.
“ The same came to Blessed Jesus by night, and said unto him, “Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God….”
(John 6:14) Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Blessed Jesus (pbuh) did, said, “ this is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world”.
Blessed Jesus is also called prophet in John 7:40. Matthew 21:v11, Luke 7:v16, and 24:v19.
Now read Acts 9:20 and you will see who started this false teaching of “son of God”.
“And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues that he is the son of God.” (Acts 9:20) Can you see, here it clearly states that Paul started to preach this. Blessed Jesus never preached it.
Answer 2: (Blessed Jesus on nature of God)
From Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) own sayings recorded in the New Testament, it is clear that he never claimed divinity or identity to God: “I do nothing of myself’ (John 8:28); “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28); “The Lord our God is one lord”(Mark 12:29); “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34); “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46).
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no. not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father ( Mark 13:32).
Indeed Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by men (Matthew 15:9): “But in vain they do worship me. Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) called himself Son of man and refused to be called Son of God’ Read Luke 4;41′ “And devils also came out of many. crying out’ and saying’ Thou art Christ the Son of God’ And here buking them suffered then not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.'”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) who was the expected Messiah, a Prophet, was escalated from teacher to Son of God. Lord’ and finally God Himself’. John 3:2:’ the same came to Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God…”; (John 6: 14): “Then those men” when they had seen the miracle that Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) did, said This is of a truth that prophet should come into the world.” Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) is also called prophet in John 7:40, Matthew 2 1 : I I , Luke 7:16 and 24:19. (Acts 9:20): “And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues the he is the Son of God.” (You can conclude from here also that early Christians were still using synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teaching of Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever), churches were established. Paul, Barnabas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues, as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution. See Acts 13:50, 17:18 and 21:28.)
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) was called prophet, teacher from God. His servant, Messiah and later was escalated to Son of God and then God Himself.
Let us now use our reason: how can God be born by a mortal one as any other mortal?
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) slept while God never sleeps (Psalm 121:4): “Behold, he that keepe the Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.” God should be powerful but how could people spit on him, crucify him as alleged. How could Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) be God if he worshipped God as any other mortal (Luke 5:16): “And he withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed.”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) was tempted by Satan for forty days ( Luke 4:1-13 )but in James 1 : I 3 is said: “. . for God cannot be tempted with evil. . .” How can Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) be God. then? We can rationalize further and further.
But I Corinthians 14:33 says: “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace.”
Doctrines made by men create confusion.
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Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
Answer 3: (Apostles on nature of God):
The author of the majority of the books of the New Testament, Saint Paul, says:
“For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto His glory; why am I
Still judged as a sinner?” Romans 3:7
(Acts 9:20): “And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues the he is the Son of God.” (You can conclude from here also that early Christians were still using synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teaching of Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever), churches were established. Paul, Barnabas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues, as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution. See Acts 13:50, 17:18 and 21:28.)
Michael Hart wrote his famous book “The 100: A ranking of the most influential persons in History”.
Here gave Blessed Muhummad #1, Most influential person in History, but Blessed Jesus as # 3, and St. Paul #6. Under “Blessed Jesus Christ”, he wrote reasons to give him # 3 are:
“Question is why Blessed Jesus, who is the inspiration for the MOST influential religion in history, has not been placed first?
There is no question that Christianity, over the course of time, has had far more adherents than any other religion. However, it is not the relative influence of different religions that is being estimated in this book, but rather the relative influence of individual men. Christianity, unlike Islam, was not founded by a single person but by two people – Blessed Jesus and St Paul- and the Principal credit for its development must therefore be apportioned between those two figures.
Blessed Jesus formulated the basic ethical ideas of Christianity, as well as its basic spiritual outlook and its main ideas concerning human conduct. Christian theology, however was shaped primarily by the work of St. Paul. Blessed Jesus presented a spiritual message: Paul added to that the worship of Christ. Furthermore, St. Paul was the author of a considerable portion of the New Testament, and was the main proselytizing force for Christianity during the first century.
Blessed Jesus was still fairly young when he died (unlike Buddha or blessed Muhummad), and he left behind a limited number of disciples. At the time of Blessed Jesus death, his followers simply formed a small JEWISH SECT. it was due in considerable measure to Paul’s writings and to his tireless proselytizing efforts, that this small SECT was transformed into a dynamic and much greater movement , which reached non-Jews as well as Jews, and which eventually grew into one of the great religions of the world.
For these reasons, some people even contend that it is Paul, rather than Blessed Jesus who should really be considered the founder of Christianity. Carried to its logical conclusion , that argument would lead one to place Paul higher on this list than Blessed Jesus! However, although it is not clear what Christianity would be like without the influence of St. Paul, it is quite apparent that without Blessed Jesus, Christianity wouldn’t exist at all… Unfortunately, the Gospels contradict each other on various points. For example, Matthew and Luke give completely different versions of Blessed Jesus’ last words… Does this mean that Blessed Jesus had no original ethical ideas? Not at all! A highly distinctive viewpoint is presented in Matthew 5:43-44: Ye have heard that it hath been said, thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. And a few lines earlier: … resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Now these ideas – which were not a part of the Judaism of Blessed Jesus day, nor of most other religions – are surely among the most remarkable and original ethical ideas ever presented. If they were widely followed, I would have had no hesitation in placing Blessed Jesus first in this book.
But the truth is that they were not widely followed. In fact, they are not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider the injunction to “Love your enemy” –at-most-an ideal which might be realized in some perfect world, but one which is not a reasonable guide to conduct in the actual world we live in. we don’t normally practice it, don’t expect others to practice it, and don’t teach our children to practice it. Blessed Jesus most distinctive teachings, therefore, remains an intriguing but basically untried suggestion.”
In the 100 list, #6 person is “St Paul”, about which Michael H Hart wrote:
“Though Paul was in Jerusalem at the same time as Blessed Jesus, it is doubtful whether the two men ever met… Of the 27 books of New Testament, no fewer than 14 are attributed to Paul… Paul’s influence on Christian theology has been incalculable. His ideas include the following: Blessed Jesus was not merely an inspired human prophet, but was actually divine. Christ died for our sins and his suffering can redeem us. Man cannot achieve salvation by attempting to conform to biblical instructions, but only by accepting Christ; conversely, if one accepts Christ, his sins will be forgiven. Paul also enunciated the doctrines of original sin (see Romans 5:12-19)…
Paul, more than any other man, was responsible for the transformation of Christianity from a Jewish sect into a world religion. His central ideas of the divinity of Christ and of justification by faith alone have remained basic to Christian thought throughout all the intervening centuries. All subsequent Christian theologians, including Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin, have been profoundly influenced by his writings. Indeed the influence of Paul’s ideas has been so great that some scholars have claimed that he, rather than Blessed Jesus, should be regarded as the principal founder of the Christian religion…” (End of Michael Hart book)
If you search entire Bible for keywords “God Father Blessed Jesus Lord”, then you get 31 biblical verses mostly from letters of Paul.
(1) Romans 1:7, (2) Romans 15:6, (3) 1 Corinthians 1:3, (4) 1 Corinthians 8:6, (5) 2 Corinthians 1:2, (6) 2 Corinthians 1:3, (7) 2 Corinthians 11:31, (8) Galatians 1:3, (9) Ephesians 1:2, (10) Ephesians 1:3, (11) Ephesians 1:17, (12) Ephesians 5:20, (13) Ephesians 6:23, (14) Philippians 1:2, (15) Philippians 2:11, (16) Colossians 1:2, (17) Colossians 1:3, (18) Colossians 3:17, (19) 1 Thessalonians 1:1, (20) 1 Thessalonians 1:3, (21) 1 Thessalonians 3:11, (22) 1 Thessalonians 3:13, (23) 2 Thessalonians 1:1, (24) 2 Thessalonians 1:2, (25) 2 Thessalonians 2:16, (26) 1 Timothy 1:2, (27) 2 Timothy 1:2, (28) Titus 1:4, (29) Philemon 1:3, (30) 1 Peter 1:3 and (31) 2 John 1:3.
Surprisingly, none of them (Except #11 Ephesians 1:17, with spirit of wisdom) mentions third member of Triune God “Holy Spirit”, also full and complete God in every respect, which means, St. Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus but wrote most of New testament) and St John (Controversial person as author of Gospel of John) were illiterate of basic requirement of salvation i.e. Concept of God i.e. Trinity formula i.e. (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God.). Although Paul presents Blessed Jesus as a Divine figure, but not as a second member of Triune God and full and complete God in every respect.
It supports Michael H Hart opinion in his book “The 100: A ranking of the most influential persons in History” when he ranks Blessed Jesus # 3 in History and writes reason:
“Blessed Jesus presented a spiritual message: Paul added to that the worship of Christ.” Thus Paul made foundations for Trinity with Divinity of Blessed Jesus which later in 4th Century, (under influence of dozens of pagan triples deities / triads of Egypt and Greece Rome), was “agreed” by Christians as a Concept of God i.e. basic requirement of salvation i.e. Trinity formula i.e. (Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but one full and complete God.)
So Michael H Hart and other Christian scholars consider that Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus) is the central Hero to convert Christianity from a small Jewish Sect to a World religion for all nations. But Muslims consider this is the thing which is called “corruption”.
Then question is; When Paul corrupted Blessed Jesus religions, why did Barnabas and other disciples of Blessed Jesus not resist him? Answer is that Paul showed his real face at time of Jerusalem Council to suspend Law of Moses for Gentiles, and then Disciples of Blessed Jesus opposed Paul, this opposition also spread to Antioch. After wards, circumstances of disciples of Blessed Jesus (especially Baranabas, old travel companion of Paul) are in complete darkness, because Acts, and Letters all are written by Paul / his followers.
Paul’s Biography at a quick glance:
Year: Events (Reference)
7–2 BC= Birth of Blessed Jesus
5 AD= Birth of St Paul
27-29 AD till 30-33AD=Time of Preaching of Blessed Jesus
30–33 AD=Crucifixion of Blessed Jesus
31-36 AD = Paul conversion to Christianity after Crucifixion (Acts 22:1-22) with help of Barnabas, one of the earliest Christian disciples.
34 AD = Instead of learning Christianity from Blessed Jesus’ Disciples, Paul went to Arabia / Mt. Sinai [Gal. 1:17] for meditation on creation of a new religion in the name of Blessed Jesus. This trip is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible. He describes in Galatians how three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem.
34-50 AD=Missionary Journeys of Paul with Disciples of Blessed Jesus (Barnabas, St. Peter)
50 AD= Council of Jerusalem between Paul and the Jerusalem church (Acts 15:2 & Galatians 2:1) The council decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the Law of Moses, including the rules concerning circumcision of males. The Council did, however, retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals not properly slain, and on fornication and idolatry. At this meeting, Paul claims in his letter to the Galatians that Peter, James, and John accepted Paul’s mission to the Gentiles.
Paul said that he received the Gospel not from any man, but by “the revelation of Blessed Jesus Christ”.[Gal 1:11-16] Paul claimed independence from the Jerusalem community [Harris, Stephen L. Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. ISBN 978-1-55934-655-9, pp.316–320], but was just as quick to claim agreement with it on the nature and content of the gospel.[Gal 1:22-24].
50 AD=Incident at Antioch=Despite the agreement achieved at the Council of Jerusalem, as understood by Paul, Paul recounts how he later publicly confronted Peter in a dispute sometimes called the “Incident at Antioch”, over Peter’s reluctance to share a meal with Gentile Christians in Antioch because they did not strictly adhere to Jewish customs.
Writing later of the incident, Paul recounts, “I opposed [Peter] to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong”, and says he told Peter, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?”[Gal. 2:11-14] Paul also mentions that even Barnabas, his traveling companion and fellow apostle until that time, sided with Peter.[Catholic Encyclopedia: Judaizers]
The final outcome of the incident remains uncertain. The Catholic Encyclopedia suggests that Paul won the argument, because “Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that Peter saw the justice of the rebuke”. L. Michael White’s From Blessed Jesus to Christianity draws the opposite conclusion: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return”. The primary source account of the Incident at Antioch is Paul’s letter to the Galatians.
57AD=Last visit to Jerusalem and arrest:
Paul arrived in Jerusalem on hisfinal visit [Acts 21:17]. Paul was warned by James and the elders that he was gaining a reputation for being against the Law, “teaching all the Jews living among the gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs”.[Acts 21:21] Paul underwent a purification ritual in order to give the Jews no grounds to bring accusations against him for not following their law. Paul caused a stir when he appeared at the Temple, and he escaped being killed by the crowd by voluntarily being taken into Roman custody. When a plot to kill Paul on his way to an appearance before the Jews was discovered, he was transported by night to Caesarea. He was held as a prisoner there for two years.
60-62AD= Paul arrived in Rome and spent another two years under house arrest [Acts 28:16]
Near 65 AD= Neither the Bible nor other sources say how or when Paul died, but Christian tradition holds that Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s.
Lost Barnabas in Bible after fight with Paul:
Hajj Sayed argues that the description of the conflict between Paul and Barnabas in Galatians supports the idea that the Gospel of Barnabas existed at the time of Paul. Blackhirst has suggested, by contrast, that Galatian’s account of this argument could be the reason the gospel’s writer attributed it to Barnabas. [www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/Blackhirst_Barnabas.html] Paul writes in (Galatians Chapter 2):
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
—Galatians 2:11-14
Paul was attacking Peter for “trying to satisfy the Jews” by sticking to their laws, such as circumcision. It is contended that at this point Barnabas was following Peter and disagreeing with Paul. Some feel it also suggests that the inhabitants of Galatia at his time were using a gospel or gospels disagreeing with Paul’s beliefs, which Gospel of Barnabas could be one of them (although the Gospel of Peter would seem a more natural candidate, as in the light of the second letter.)
6th Century (Before Islam): A “Gospel according to Barnabas” Clearly contradicting Divinity of Blessed Jesus, Divine Sonship of Blessed Jesus and Trinity is mentioned in two early Christian lists of apocryphal works: the Latin Decretum Gelasianum (6th century), as well as a 7th-century Greek List of the Sixty Books. These lists are independent witnesses.
1698 AD= John Ernest Grabe found an otherwise unreported saying of Blessed Jesus,[Cirillo, Luigi; Fremaux, Michel (1977). Évangile de Barnabé. Beauchesne. p. 244.] attributed to the Apostle Barnabas, amongst the Greek manuscripts in the Baroccian collection in the Bodleian Library; which he speculated might be a quotation from this lost gospel. John Toland translates the quotation as, The Apostle Barnabas says, he gets the worst of it who overcomes in evil contentions; because he thus comes to have the more sin; and claimed to have identified a corresponding phrase when he examined the surviving Italian manuscript of the Gospel of Barnabas in Amsterdam before 1709.
1713= Prince Eugene’s Italian manuscript had been presented to him in 1713 by John Frederick Cramer;[Ragg, L & L (1907). The Gospel of Barnabas. Oxford. pp. x. ISBN 1-881316-15-7.] and was transferred to the Austrian National Library in Vienna in 1738 with the rest of his library.
The Gospel of Barnabas is a book depicting the life of Blessed Jesus, and claiming to be by Blessed Jesus’ disciple Barnabas, who in this work is one of the twelve apostles. Two manuscripts are known to have existed, both dated to the late 16th century and written respectively in Italian and in Spanish—although the Spanish manuscript is now lost, its text surviving only in a partial 18th-century transcript. Barnabas is about the same length as the four Canonical gospels put together, with the bulk being devoted to an account of Blessed Jesus’ ministry, much of it harmonized from accounts also found in the canonical gospels. In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity.
This Gospel is considered by the majority of academics, including Christians to be late and pseudepigraphical; however, some academics suggest that it may contain some remnants of an earlier apocryphal work, redacted to bring it more in line with Islamic doctrine. Some Muslims consider the surviving versions as transmitting a suppressed apostolic original. Some Islamic organizations cite it in support of the Islamic view of Blessed Jesus.
Answer 4: (Disciples of Apostles on nature of God):
Blessed Jesus said (Matt. 10:24): “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.”
As I have said earlier in Summary # 1 of my dialogue with Madam Jessica;
“Early Church Fathers are not Superior to Blessed Jesus and Prophets”.
Still No Christians refuted it. As far as Basic beliefs required for salvation is concerned, Disciples of Apostles must be simply follower of Blessed Jesus and Prophets, and otherwise they may be heretic in the eyes of Orthodox, Catholics or Protestant Christians.
In order to refute or make pointless the objections on Bible, Christians claim that Blessed Jesus didn’t claim that he was writing a book, Blessed Jesus established Church, and now this is the alive Church which has authority on things such as Trinity, Divinity of Blessed Jesus etc and objections on Bible are pointless.
This argument of Christians could have some weight, if Bible and Church could go together hand in hand. Instead we see lots of contradictions between Bible and Church; these contradictions cancel above mentioned claim of Christians.
The Disciples of Apostles and later church have clearly deviated from original teachings of Bibl and Prophet. The following 14 questions are enough to prove what has been made with Christianity of Apostles by Disciples of Apostles and later generations:
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as “father”? (Matt. 23:9).
9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?
[Reference of above 14 Questions:
http://www.bible.ca/cath-bible-origin.htm (Sep 2013)]
In the end, I thank to Madam Jessica for participating in a friendly and respectful Christian Muslim Dialogue, I am sure that readers of this Christian Muslim Dialogue will also have learnt some truth about the two greatest religions of the world i.e. Christianity and Islam.
Regards,
Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
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Mushtaq, all quoting Hart shows is that one man thinks what one man thinks, it is not of relevance here.
I have sorted your arguments by theme and will answer them in that way. If you are not working from a script it will be easy enough to follow. If you are, you will get confused. If you are confused and working from a script, that will become clear. The website you cite is from a heretic, and any Catholic website answers those questions, as does any Orthodox one. You must know this, so do not waste our time with something so easily answered in that way.
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PART 1 OF 2
SUMMARY – Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
Title of Dialogue Summary: Divine Sonship and Trinity Part 2 (Summary # 2)
Date of Summary: 06 Oct 2013
Summary Points: 12 to 26.
Summary compression ratio: 38 pages summarized to 19 pages. (2.0:1)
Dialogue between: Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq & Jessica Hoff
Thank you Madam Jessica for a nice and friendly discussion here. Our dialogue is
friendly and tension free and blockage free. If you are unwilling to answer any question;
plz frankly tell me and I shall add it in list of pending questions to be discussed later.
Now, I present Summary of my Detailed and full reply that I sent on same date (14 Sep
2013) to you:
You may Answer Summary; Answer of Summary will be enough to continue dialogue.
But before answering any summary point, please see once again corresponding point in
my detailed reply, so to avoid any duplication in dialogue.
CONTENTS OF SUMMARY
This Summary has 14 points (From point 12 till 25).
12-Son of Triune God contradicts Trinity
13-Father is not 1st member of Triune God in Bible
14-Son is not 2nd member of Triune God in Bible
15-Holy Spirit is not 3rd member of Triune God in Bible
16-Old nations understood Unitarian meanings of Father & Son
17-Members of Triune God are not Co-equal
18-Christian world was & is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity
19-Early Church Fathers or their sayings may be heretic
20-Blessed Jesus: Ordinary death of mortal, not extraordinary death of Immortal God
21-Source of Number Three in Trinity is not from Blessed Jesus & Prophets
22-Blessed Jesus was a Prophet to Israel
23-Blessed Jesus refused his own worship and his Divine Sonship
24-Blessed Jesus is not real founder of Christianity
25-Bible and Church contradict each other
END OF SUMMARY
12-Son of Triune God contradicts Trinity:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 59.
Lo! the likeness of BLESSED JESUS with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.
Your these man made words [Trinity] are totally Unbiblical and create confusion “Blessed Jesus is the Son within the Trinity”. From Adam to Moses and Blessed Jesus, not even a single Prophet taught his nation these words to clarify concept of God.
I have also heard these words first time from you. Bible uses words “Son of God”, Bible doesn’t use words “Son within God”. After the invention of Trinity in Council of 4th century, The God has become Triune God and “Son of God” has become “Son of Triune God”. You know Triune God has three persons, so Son of Triune God means Son of three persons? Son of Two persons? Or Son of one person? This man made confusion resulted by man made Triune God can be resolved if you use any of the following options:
Option 1: Son of Triune God means Son of father, Son of Son (Grand Son of God) and Son of Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit is 2nd father in Trinity).
Option 2: Son of Triune God means Son of Father only, Father is equivalent to Triune God. Father and Son are one and same. So when second member of Triune God crucified and died, Father was also crucified and died.
Option 3: Son of Triune God means Son of first part of Triune God. Father is first part of Triune God, as already demonstrated above.
Option 4: Son of Triune God means ….. to be told by you, if you disagree with all above three options.
Earlier I have shown that Unitarian Christians are not heretics since they simply follow blessed Jesus. But now interesting situation has arisen that I have heard some “heretic” words first time from Madam Jessica. These are “Son within Trinity” which means “Son within God”, everyone knows Bible always uses “Son of God”, Bible never uses “Son within God”, or Son within Trinity, therefore for corruption well known established belief “Son of God” into “Son within God”, Madam Jessica has RISK to become heretic. If she is not heretic, how can she call Unitarian Christians heretic who simply follow blessed Jesus on nature of God?
“Son of God” had meanings of “Loved One” before invention of Trinity, as many people are called Son of God in Bible, Adam lacked both father and mother and is also called Son of God in Luke 3:38 without adding him in Trinity. But after invention of Trinity, now “Son of God” has become contradictory to Trinity and therefore now it is a pointless, useless, obsolete and expired term. I have already shown in my Summary point 11 how Divine Sonship contradcts Trinity, and here I remove remaining doubts by Triune God that “Son of God is an expired term after invention of Trinity.”
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 72-74
Those who say, “God is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have defied God. The Messiah himself said; “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful?
13-Father is not 1st member of Triune God in Bible:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 044 – Ad-Dukhân. Verse 8.
There is no god but He: It is He Who gives life and gives death,- The Lord and Cherisher to you and your earliest ancestors.
There is no verse in Bible which defines Father as first member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. In the absence of such definition, we shall have to check context of Biblical verses that in which meanings Father has been used in Bible? Is it in Unitarian Christians meanings or Trinitarian Christians meanings?
Trinitarian Christians define Triune God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Father is first member of Triune God and also full and complete God.
Next Trinitarian Christians claim that although term Trinity was not used in Bible, but presence of God as Father shows first member of Triune God.
This claim is incorrect. It is very easy to see that ancient nations, Prophets, and even people in times of Blessed Jesus understood God as Father not in meanings of first member of Triune God. They understood Father in meanings of Creator and Master.
Deuteronomy 32:6 = Do you thus requite the Lord, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
Remarks= Here Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 63:16 = For thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; thou, O Lord, art our Father, our Redeemer from of old is thy name.
Remarks=Here again, Father is being used in meaning of “Creator” & Master, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Isaiah 64:8 = Yet, O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; we are all the work of thy hand
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
Malachi 2:10 = Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Remarks=Here again Father is being used in meaning of “Creator”, not in meaning of first member of Triune God.
14-Son is not 2nd member of Triune God in Bible:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 009 – At-Taubah. Verse 31.
They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah SON of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One GOD. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
There is no verse in Bible which defines Son as second member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. In the absence of such definition, we shall have to check context of Biblical verses that in which meanings Son of God has been used in Bible? Is it in Unitarian Christians meanings or Trinitarian Christians meanings?
We take a start from Adam, the very first man and very first Prophet, accepted and respectable to both Muslims and Christians.
Adam didn’t speak and hear the concept of Christian God [The Trinity formula = Father is God, Son is God and Holy Spirit is God, but these are not three gods, but One God]. He believed in One God.
Adam, was created without a father and without a mother, Adam is called Son of God in Luke 3:38: “Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God”.
So Does here “Son of God” means Second member of Triune God? Answer is No, surely Trinitarian Christians will agree that Adam is not a member of Trinity and “Son of God” here doesn’t mean second person of Trinity.
We shall now discuss next Biblical verses to show that in Old Testament, Son of God, Firstborn, Begotten son of God & Children of God are not used in meanings of second member of Triune God, but in meanings of (i)Obedient (ii)Loved One (v)Affection & (vi)Nearness to God, and is not exclusive to Blessed Jesus alone.
Many Prophets are called “sons of God” and “children of God” in the Bible. Read Exodus 4:22. “And thou (Moses) shalt say unto Pharaoh, thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.”
Here it clearly states Jacob (Israel) is God’s firstborn son. Read now II Samuel 7:13-14 and I Chronicles 22:10.
“He (Solomon) shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be My son.”
It will be even more confusing when you read Jeremiah 31:9: “I am a Father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.” In Exodus 4:22 just now, Israel was called firstborn too. Who is the real firstborn? Israel or Ephraim? Common people can also be children of God; read Deuteronomy 14:1. “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”
Common people can also be called firstborn; read Romans 8:29. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren.”
If all are firstborn, what is Blessed Jesus then? He is the only “begotten son of God.
Long before Blessed Jesus was born, God said to David (Psalm 2.7): “I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me (David), Thou art My son; this day have I begotten thee.” So David is also God’s begotten son, and he was before Blessed Jesus. You see the meaning of “son of God” is not literal but metaphorical. The Bible makes it clear that anyone who obeys God is beloved to God and is called son or children of God. Blessed Jesus also said that God is not only his Father, but also your Father as stated in Matthew 5:45,48.
“That ye may be the children of your Father”; and “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
As you can see in many passages of the Bible people are called “first born”, “begotten son”, “sons of God” and “children of God” which signify love and affection and nearness to God, and is not exclusive to Blessed Jesus alone. You will see sons and daughters of God (II Corinthians 6:18): “And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”. In view of these and other passages in the Bible, there is no reason whatsoever why Blessed Jesus (pbuh) should be regarded as the only son of God in a literal or unique sense.
But he had no father; that is why he is son of God. Why then don’t you consider Adam, who was created without a father and without a mother as a son of God? And Adam is also called son of God in Luke 3:38: “Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God”. You will see that whosoever obeys God’s injunctions is referred to as “son of God” as he is an obedient servant of God. Now read: Read Hebrews 7:3.
“Without father, without mother without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto a
son of God; abideth a priest continually.” Who is he?
The answer is in Hebrews7:v1. “Melchisedic, King of Salem, Priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham…” He is more unique than Blessed Jesus and Adam (pbut). Why is he not preferred to be son of God or God himself?
What do Muslims call Blessed Jesus then? Muslims call him, “Blessed Jesus, the son of Mary” (pbuh). No-one can argue and deny this because it is an absolute fact! Blessed Jesus (pbuh) called himself son of man and refused to be called son of God. Read Luke 4:41. “And devils came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the son of God. And he (Blessed Jesus) rebuking them suffered them not to speak.”
Can you see? He rebuked / scolded them for their saying so, because it was a lie they spoke. If it were true, then he would not have rebuked them. God appointed Blessed Jesus as a messenger to the Children of Israel as he stated many times as recorded in the Bible.
It is clear here that he refused to be called son of God and also by his own disciples. Read Luke 9:20 and 21.
“He, (Blessed Jesus) said unto them (the disciples) but whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, the Christ of God. And he (Blessed Jesus) straightly charged (rebuked) them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing.”
You see, again Blessed Jesus rebuked the disciples here, as it was untrue. A prophet will never allow a lie to be told. Blessed Jesus, who was the Messiah, a prophet, was escalated from teacher to son of God, to Lord, and finally to God Himself. Read John 3:2 and John 6:14 where the actual status of Blessed Jesus is recorded.
“The same came to Blessed Jesus by night, and said unto him, “Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God….”
(John 6:14) Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Blessed Jesus (pbuh) did, said, “ this is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world”.
Blessed Jesus is also called prophet in John 7:40. Matthew 21:v11, Luke 7:v16, and 24:v19. Now read Acts 9:20 and you will see who started this false teaching of “son of God”.
“And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues that he is the son of God.” (Acts 9:20)
Can you see, here it clearly states that Paul started to preach this. Blessed Jesus never preached it. You can also conclude that the early Christians were still praying in synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teaching of Blessed Jesus (pbuh) Paul, Banarbas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues, as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution.
Read also Acts 13:50. 17:18 & 21:28. & Luke 2:11. Because Paul preached blasphemy they were expelled from the Synagogues then only Churches were established. It all proves that Blessed Jesus was a prophet and not God, or son of God as this is clear from the Bible itself.
Trinitarian Christians interpret “Son of God” is “Second Member of Triune God”.
What is meaning of “Son of God” in Old Testament?
Adam, Israel, Solomon, Ephraim, David and even common people are also called “Son of God”. Can Trinitarian Christians claim that “Son of God” in OT is “proof” of second member of Triune God? No, they cannot claim, because such claim will make Adam, Israel, Solomon, Ephraim, David and even common people persons of Trinity or members of Triune God.
Therefore, OT & NT makes no help to Trinitarian Christians to prove that Old nations believed in Trinity. These were pagans of 4th century which believed in Trinity.
15-Holy Spirit is not 3rd member of Triune God in Bible:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 016 – An-Nahl. Verse 102.
Say: The HOLY SPIRIT hath revealed it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).
HOLY SPIRIT IN CHRISTIANITY: The third member of the Triune God, but also “fully” God in every respect.
HOLY SPIRIT IN ISLAM: He is the angel Gabriel. The angel Gabriel is highly esteemed as the “Trustworthy Spirit”
There is no verse in Bible which defines Holy Spirit as third member of Triune God and also full and complete God in every respect. In the absence of such definition, we shall have to check context of Biblical verses that in which meanings Holy Spirit has been used in Bible? Is it in Unitarian Christians meanings or Trinitarian Christians meanings?
One Bible search website is:
http://www.biblegateway.com
In the search box, type, “father, son, holy” to enlist all verses where these words appear.
Keyword search results 3 Results
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY GHOST:
Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the SON of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his FATHER with the HOLY ANGELS.
Luke 9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the SON of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his FATHER’S, and of the HOLY ANGELS.
If Trinitarian Christians can conclude Trinity of THREE or Holy Spirit as third member of Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) from One verse (Matthew 28:19), then why do they also not conclude Trinity of Father, Son and Holy angels from two verses (Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26) ? Was it not duty of Blessed Jesus to tell :” There are only THREE persons in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?” Answer is No, it was not duty of Blessed Jesus to tell Father, Son and Holy Spirit make Trinity, since Trinity formula is not teaching of Blessed Jesus.
Bible and Quran agree that Blessed Jesus was supported by angel, then Blessed Jesus cannot be God, because God doesn’t need support and strengthens from angels, rather it is God which provides support and strengthen to angels.
Now to confirm identity of Holy Spirit as angel; we compare two passages of Bible:
Read Matthew 1:18. “Now the birth of Blessed Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”
Compare now with Luke 1:26& 27.
“And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.”
So in the miraculous birth of Blessed Jesus, Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. Who is the Holy Ghost then? The Holy Ghost is then the angel Gabriel !, Not third member of Triune God also full God in every respect.
For the case of Holy Spirit, it is used in meanings of “Angel”, not in meanings of third member of Triune God. Luke states that an angel appeared to Blessed Jesus to strengthen him. Read (Luke 22:43): “And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.”
Same is also mentioned in Quran, God strengthen Blessed Jesus with Holy Spirit.
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 87.
And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto BLESSED JESUS, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
16-Old nations understood Unitarian meanings of Father & Son:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 002 – Al-Baqarah. Verse 136.
Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob. and the tribes, and that which Moses and BLESSED JESUS received, add that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
“Father” is used by Trinitarian Christians in meaning “First member of Triune God which is also fully God in every respect”.
Unitarian Christians understand its meaning “Creator”.
Can Trinitarian Christians claim that Unitarian Christians also understand and interpret “Father” as first member of Triune God? Answer is No. Why? Because such claim will reveal the ignorance and falsehood of Trinitarian Christians, therefore, they cannot and they will never dare to make such a claim.
Now repeat same question by comparing Trinitarian Christians and old nations.
“Father” is used by Prophets and their nations in Old Testament in meanings of “Creator”.
“Father” is used by Trinitarian Christians in meaning “First member of Triune God”.
Can Trinitarian Christians claim that Old nations & Prophets (From Adam till Moses) also understand and interpret “Father” as first member of Triune God which is also full and complete God? Answer is No. Why? Because such claim will reveal the ignorance and falsehood of Trinitarian Christians, therefore, they cannot and they will never dare to make such a claim.
17-Members of Triune God are not Co-equal:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 64.
Say: O People of the Scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no PARTNERs unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
Trinitarian Christians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “co-equal”, “co-eternal” and “same substance”. This belief is incorrect due to following reasons:
(a)As the Son was the Word Incarnate, Father and Holy Spirit are not incarnate, therefore, three persons are NOT co-equal.
(b)Second member of Triune God was fully-human and fully-divine, remaining two persons not, it is against violation of “co-equality”.
(c)Incarnate Word died and rose again, but same didn’t happen with first and third members of Triune God, it is against violation of “co-equality” of three persons.
(d)When the Incarnate Word died, the Godhead didn’t die. It means neither full Godhead nor part of Godhead incarnated into “Word”. “Word” was full human i.e. Blessed Jesus was full human and not a God.
(e)Father and the Spirit were not Incarnate and were not crucified; it is again proof that three members are not “co-equal”.
(f)At time of death, the Divinity of the Word was not dead. Then death of Blessed Jesus was an ordinary Human Sacrifice of a Mortal Man, it was not an extraordinary sacrifice by an Immortal God. Where is greatness in death of Blessed Jesus to pardon Sins and Atonement?
18-Christian world was & is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 019 – Maryam. Verse 27-40
“Then she (Mary) brought him (Blessed Jesus) to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing. O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot. Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy? He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet, And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive, And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest. Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Blessed Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. The sects among them differ: but woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day. See and hear them on the Day they come unto Us! yet the evil-doers are to-day in error manifest. And warn them of the Day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not. Lo! We, only We, inherit the earth and all who are thereon, and unto Us they are returned”.
I am presenting this part for information /reference only to show that God is not author of confusion and all Christian world is united in belief of ONE God taught by Prophets & Blessed Jesus; but Christian world was divided and still is divided due to man made confusion of Trinity:-
Nontrinitarianism (or antitrinitarianism) refers to Christian belief systems which reject the doctrine of the Trinity as not having scriptural origin. Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Blessed Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and phesus. Nontrinitarianism was later renewed in the Gnosticism of the Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.
Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Blessed Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.
Islam, which considers Blessed Jesus a prophet but not divine, teaches the absolute indivisibility of a supremely sovereign and transcendent god, and is distinctly antitrinitarian as several verses of the Koran teach that the doctrine of Trinity is blasphemous.
Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 112 – Al-Ikhlas. Verse 1-4.
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
19-Early Church Fathers or their sayings may be heretic:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 15.
O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you light from Allah and a plain Scripture
As Muslims we believe in Blessed Jesus, and Christians also believe in Blessed Jesus. Here are not words of Blessed Jesus, but of a Church father of 2nd century Origen (185-254) already influenced by Greek pagan philosophy of Logos. Now If Christians are to listen in basic requirement of salvation and concept of God, that it cannot be a Church father of 2nd Century, but Blessed Jesus himself. Blessed Jesus is the Source, the Church fathers of later centuries may be, or may not be heretic in eyes of Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant Churches. In the words of Summary # 1 of our dialogue;
“Early Church Fathers are not Superior to Blessed Jesus and Prophets”. It is true in defining basic requirement of salvation, concept of God, in this field, Origen is not authority, but Blessed Jesus and Prophets.
Origen, or Origen Adamantius (184/185 – 253/254), [1] was a scholar, early Christian theologian and Church Father, [2] who was born and spent the first half of his career in Alexandria. He was a prolific writer in multiple branches of theology, including textual criticism, biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, philosophical theology, preaching, and spirituality. Some of his reputed teachings, such as the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, including perhaps even the devil (the apokatastasis),[3] and the subordination (Son and the Holy Spirit are subordinate to God the Father, a heresy in Trinity) of the Son of God to God the Father, later became controversial among Christian theologians. A later group of Egyptian monks who came to be known as Origenists, and who believed in the preexistence of souls and the apokatastasis, were declared anathema (expelled from Church) in 553 AD. This condemnation is attributed to the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople, though it does not appear in the council’s official minutes.[4] For this reason Origen was and is not called a “saint” in either the Catholic or Orthodox churches.
[1] The New Catholic Encyclopedia (Detroit: Gale, 2003). ISBN 978-0-7876-4004-0
[2] For instance, Pope Benedict XVI, in his Wednesday catecheses from March 7, 2007, to June 25, 2008, on the Church Fathers, devoted two talks to him.
[3] Patrides, C. A. (October–December 1967). “The salvation of Satan”. Journal of the History of Ideas 28 (4): 467–478. doi:10.2307/2708524. JSTOR 2708524. reprinted in Patrides, C. A. (1982) [1967]. “‘A principle of infinite love’: The salvation of Satan”. Premises and motifs in Renaissance literature. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. JSTOR 2708524.
[4] Philip Schaff, ed. (1994) [1885]. “The Anathemas Against Origen”. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series II, Volume XIV (The Seven Ecumenical Councils). Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers. ISBN 1-56563-116-1.
20-Blessed Jesus: Ordinary death of mortal, not extraordinary death of Immortal God
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 2.
Allah! There is no GOD save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.
The greatest of the early Fathers, Origen claims Wisdom of God / Word of God /Blessed Jesus is eternal. This belief is contradicted by Crucifixion Doctrine, Since Word of God was hanged. And if you claim that Divine part / Divine nature of Blessed Jesus remained alive and only human part/ human nature of Blessed Jesus died at cross, then death of Blessed Jesus was ordinary death of a mortal man among death of ordinary billions of mortal men, daily hundreds of mortal men die on earth and so far millions of men have died on earth, there is nothing special in death of mortal man capable of dying. Everything is dying on earth; even our planet earth and great Sun are also dying. Everyone will die except eternal God. Therefore, death of Blessed Jesus on cross was an ordinary death of a mortal man, it was not an extraordinary death by Immortal Son of God or Eternal God himself.
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SUMMARY – Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
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SUMMARY – Re: Dialogue with a Muslim friend: part 2
21-Source of Number Three in Trinity is not from Blessed Jesus & Prophets:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 004 – An-Nisâ. Verse 171.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, BLESSED JESUS son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three”. Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
The Trinity word has been used here. He didn’t find this word in teachings of Blessed Jesus and Prophets, but copy pasted this word from Theophilus of Antioch. It needs to be considered that Theophilus of Antioch also didn’t have this word from Blessed Jesus and Prophets. Let’s see from where he derives this word? How Number “Three” came in Godhead of Christianity as this number was never told by Blessed Jesus and Prophets in context of Godhead? It is enough to have a brief look at (a) Theophilus of Antioch (Trinity Inventor) and (b) Philo of Alexandria (Hellenized Jew on Logos).
(a) Theophilus of Antioch:
The first of the early church fathers to be recorded using the word “Trinity” was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia) [1] in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation.
According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God; the moon of man, whose death and resurrection are prefigured by the monthly changes of that luminary. The first three days before the creation of the heavenly bodies are types of the Trinity.
Theophilus explains the Trinity as follows:
In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.
— Theophilus [1]
Alternatively, the references to the Logos and Sophia (wisdom) may be ideas taken from Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism. The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and heretical Jewish sects. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom (as feminine consort) is described as God’s Counsellor and Work mistress, who dwelt beside Him before the creation of the world.
(b) Philo of Alexandria:
Philo (20 BC – 50 AD), a Hellenized Jew, used the term Logos to mean an intermediary divine being, or demiurge.[2] Philo followed the Platonic distinction between imperfect matter and perfect idea, and therefore intermediary beings were necessary to bridge the enormous gap between God and the material world.[3] The Logos was the highest of these intermediary beings, and was called by Philo “the first-born of God.”[3] Philo also wrote that “the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated.”[4]
The Platonic Ideas were located within the Logos, but the Logos also acted on behalf of God in the physical world.[3] In particular, the Angel of the Lord in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) was identified with the Logos by Philo, who also said that the Logos was God’s instrument in the creation of the universe.[3]
[1] Theophilus, Apologia ad Autolycum, Book II, Chapter 15
[2] Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (2nd ed): Philo Judaeus, 1999.
[3] Frederick Copleston, A History of Philosophy, Volume 1, Continuum, 2003, pp. 458–462.
[4] Philo, De Profugis, cited in Gerald Friedlander, Hellenism and Christianity, P. Vallentine, 1912, pp. 114–115.
From this, we get following five conclusions:
[i] Theophilus of Antioch is the first Church father to use word Trinity in the late 2nd century. He defines the Trinity as God, His Word (Logos) and His Wisdom (Sophia).
He doesn’t give formal basic requirement of salvation, the concept of God {Trinity formula = Father is full and complete God, Son is full and complete God, Holy Spirit is full and complete God, but these are not three gods, but One full and complete God}
[ii] He uses Trinity in the context of a discussion of the first three days of creation. The first three days before the creation of the heavenly bodies are types of the Trinity. He doesn’t use ten commandments of Moses, or saying of Blessed Jesus as source of number “three” in concept of God (term Trinity).
[iii] According to Theophilus, the sun is the image of God; the moon of man. This is reflection of his pagan Sun god that sun is image of God. Of course 25 December was day of pagan sun god mithra, Sabbath was shifted to Sunday due to day of sun god. These are effects of pagans on Christianity; i.e. sun as image of god, Sunday and 25 December Christmas are not teachings of Blessed Jesus and Prophets, but of sun worshippers.
[iv] In “Trinity”, he also adds 4th person as the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.
[v] Alternatively, the references to the Logos and Sophia (wisdom) may be ideas taken from Greek philosophy or Hellenistic Judaism. The concept of intermediate divine beings was common to Platonism and heretical Jewish sects. This shows a pagan background of Trinity and not as a teaching of Prophets and Blessed Jesus.
22-Blessed Jesus was a Prophet to Israel:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 72.
They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said : O Children of ISRAEL, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers there will be no helpers.
Blessed Jesus didn’t say he was writing a book. He also didn’t say he was founding a Church.
Question is why?
Because Blessed Jesus himself said that he was sent only to the house of Israel. House of Israel had already books. (Matthew 15:24): “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Also (Matthew 1:21): “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Blessed Jesus; for he shall save his people from their sins.” (i.e. the Jews). Blessed Jesus also said that he came not to make changes but to fulfill the Law. (Matthew 5:17-18): “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” In Chapter 61.v6 of the Qur’an it states emphatically that Blessed Jesus came to the Jews.
But in Mark 16:15 Blessed Jesus said, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
This contradicts what is mentioned above in Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 1:21. Very Important: Mark 16:9-20 has been expunged in many Bibles. The New American Standard Bible put this part in brackets and wrote the following commentary:
“Some of the oldest manuscripts omit Matthew verses 9 through 20.” The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures admits that certain ancient manuscripts add a long conclusion or a short conclusion after Mark 16:8 but some omit it entirely. The Revised Standard Version (By 32 Christian Scholars backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations) prints the following footnote: “Some of the most ancient authorities bring the book to a close at the end of verse 8:” This means also that the resurrection is not true as this is described in Mark 16:9.
But Blessed Jesus said in Matthew 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations.”
“All nations” must be explained as “all the twelve tribes of Israel;” otherwise it contradicts Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 1:21. In the New American Standard Bible and the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures it is not translated as “all nations” of the world, but as “all the nations,” which means some specific nations “the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Surah/Chapter 061 – As-Saff. Verse 14.
O ye who believe! Be Allah’s helpers, even as Blessed Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for Allah? They said: We are Allah’s helpers. And a party of the Children of ISRAEL believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost.
Neither the name Judaism nor Christianity is found in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. No Israelite Prophet mentioned the word Judaism. Blessed Jesus never claimed to establish Christianity on earth and never called himself a Christian. The word Christianity is mentioned only three times in the New Testament and first in Antioch.”
Later by King Agrippa II to Paul in Acts 26:28: “Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuades me to be a Christian.”
So the name Christian was first given by foes rather than friends. And finally by Peter in his letter to comfort the faithful in I Peter 4:16: “Yet if any man suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed. .. ”
-the first to be called Muslim on earth is not Muhammad but Abraham who submitted totally to Allah. But Islam as a way of life had been revealed to other prophets prior to Abraham like Adam and Noah. Then Islam follows as the way of life for all humanity.
Al Quran Chapter 5 Verse 3. … This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam …
23-Blessed Jesus refused his own worship and his Divine Sonship:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 116.
And when Allah saith: O BLESSED JESUS, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.
From Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) own sayings recorded in the New Testament, it is clear that he never claimed divinity or identity to God: “I do nothing of myself’ (John 8:28); “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28); “The Lord our God is one lord”(Mark 12:29); “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34); “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46).
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no. not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father ( Mark 13:32).
Indeed Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by men (Matthew 15:9): “But in vain they do worship me. Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) called himself Son of man and refused to be called Son of God’ Read Luke 4;41′ “And devils also came out of many. crying out’ and saying’ Thou art Christ the Son of God’ And here buking them suffered then not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.'”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) who was the expected Messiah, a Prophet, was escalated from teacher to Son of God. Lord’ and finally God Himself’. John 3:2:’ the same came to Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God…”; (John 6: 14): “Then those men” when they had seen the miracle that Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) did, said This is of a truth that prophet should come into the world.” Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) is also called prophet in John 7:40, Matthew 2 1 : I I , Luke 7:16 and 24:19. (Acts 9:20): “And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues the he is the Son of God.” (You can conclude from here also that early Christians were still using synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teaching of Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever), churches were established. Paul, Barnabas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues, as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution. See Acts 13:50, 17:18 and 21:28.)
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) was called prophet, teacher from God. His servant, Messiah and later was escalated to Son of God and then God Himself.
Let us now use our reason: how can God be born by a mortal one as any other mortal?
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) slept while God never sleeps (Psalm 121:4): “Behold, he that keepe the Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.” God should be powerful but how could people spit on him, crucify him as alleged. How could Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) be God if he worshipped God as any other mortal (Luke 5:16): “And he withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed.”
Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) was tempted by Satan for forty days ( Luke 4:1-13 )but in James 1 : I 3 is said: “. . for God cannot be tempted with evil. . .” How can Blessed Jesus (May he be blessed forever) be God. then? We can rationalize further and further.
But I Corinthians 14:33 says: “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace.”
Doctrines made by men create confusion.
24-Blessed Jesus is not real founder of Christianity:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 77.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of folk who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from a plain road.
The author of the majority of the books of the New Testament, Saint Paul, says:
“For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto His glory; why am I
Still judged as a sinner?” Romans 3:7
(Acts 9:20): “And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues the he is the Son of God.” (You can conclude from here also that early Christians were still using synagogues, but later when Christianity deviated from the original teaching of Blessed Jesus, churches were established. Paul, Barnabas and the gentiles were expelled from the synagogues, as they were accused of blasphemy and pollution. See Acts 13:50, 17:18 and 21:28.)
Michael Hart wrote his famous book “The 100: A ranking of the most influential persons in History”.
Here gave Blessed Muhummad #1, Most influential person in History, but Blessed Jesus as # 3, and St. Paul #6. Under “Blessed Jesus Christ”, he wrote reasons to give him # 3 are:
“Question is why Blessed Jesus, who is the inspiration for the MOST influential religion in history, has not been placed first?
There is no question that Christianity, over the course of time, has had far more adherents than any other religion. However, it is not the relative influence of different religions that is being estimated in this book, but rather the relative influence of individual men. Christianity, unlike Islam, was not founded by a single person but by two people – Blessed Jesus and St Paul- and the Principal credit for its development must therefore be apportioned between those two figures.
Blessed Jesus formulated the basic ethical ideas of Christianity, as well as its basic spiritual outlook and its main ideas concerning human conduct. Christian theology, however was shaped primarily by the work of St. Paul. Blessed Jesus presented a spiritual message: Paul added to that the worship of Christ. Furthermore, St. Paul was the author of a considerable portion of the New Testament, and was the main proselytizing force for Christianity during the first century.
Blessed Jesus was still fairly young when he died (unlike Buddha or blessed Muhummad), and he left behind a limited number of disciples. At the time of Blessed Jesus death, his followers simply formed a small JEWISH SECT. it was due in considerable measure to Paul’s writings and to his tireless proselytizing efforts, that this small SECT was transformed into a dynamic and much greater movement , which reached non-Jews as well as Jews, and which eventually grew into one of the great religions of the world.
For these reasons, some people even contend that it is Paul, rather than Blessed Jesus who should really be considered the founder of Christianity. Carried to its logical conclusion , that argument would lead one to place Paul higher on this list than Blessed Jesus! However, although it is not clear what Christianity would be like without the influence of St. Paul, it is quite apparent that without Blessed Jesus, Christianity wouldn’t exist at all… Unfortunately, the Gospels contradict each other on various points. For example, Matthew and Luke give completely different versions of Blessed Jesus’ last words… Does this mean that Blessed Jesus had no original ethical ideas? Not at all! A highly distinctive viewpoint is presented in Matthew 5:43-44: Ye have heard that it hath been said, thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. And a few lines earlier: … resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Now these ideas – which were not a part of the Judaism of Blessed Jesus day, nor of most other religions – are surely among the most remarkable and original ethical ideas ever presented. If they were widely followed, I would have had no hesitation in placing Blessed Jesus first in this book.
But the truth is that they were not widely followed. In fact, they are not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider the injunction to “Love your enemy” –at-most-an ideal which might be realized in some perfect world, but one which is not a reasonable guide to conduct in the actual world we live in. we don’t normally practice it, don’t expect others to practice it, and don’t teach our children to practice it. Blessed Jesus most distinctive teachings, therefore, remains an intriguing but basically untried suggestion.”
In the 100 list, #6 person is “St Paul”, about which Michael H Hart wrote:
“Though Paul was in Jerusalem at the same time as Blessed Jesus, it is doubtful whether the two men ever met… Of the 27 books of New Testament, no fewer than 14 are attributed to Paul… Paul’s influence on Christian theology has been incalculable. His ideas include the following: Blessed Jesus was not merely an inspired human prophet, but was actually divine. Christ died for our sins and his suffering can redeem us. Man cannot achieve salvation by attempting to conform to biblical instructions, but only by accepting Christ; conversely, if one accepts Christ, his sins will be forgiven. Paul also enunciated the doctrines of original sin (see Romans 5:12-19)…
Paul, more than any other man, was responsible for the transformation of Christianity from a Jewish sect into a world religion. His central ideas of the divinity of Christ and of justification by faith alone have remained basic to Christian thought throughout all the intervening centuries. All subsequent Christian theologians, including Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin, have been profoundly influenced by his writings. Indeed the influence of Paul’s ideas has been so great that some scholars have claimed that he, rather than Blessed Jesus, should be regarded as the principal founder of the Christian religion…”
Christianity is based on New Testament, and New Testament’s most books have been written by Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus). Michael H Hart and other Christian scholars consider that Paul (who never saw Blessed Jesus) is the central Hero to convert Christianity from a small Jewish Sect to a World religion for all nations. But Muslims consider this is the thing which is called “corruption”.
Then question is; When Paul corrupted Blessed Jesus religions, why did Barnabas and other disciples of Blessed Jesus not resist him? Answer is that Paul showed his real face at time of Jerusalem Council to suspend Law of Moses for Gentiles, and then Disciples of Blessed Jesus opposed Paul, this opposition also spread to Antioch. After wards, circumstances of disciples of Blessed Jesus (especially Baranabas, old travel companion of Paul) are in complete darkness, because Acts, and Letters all are written by Paul / his followers.
Paul’s Biography at a quick glance:
Year: Events (Reference)
27-29 AD till 30-33 AD=Time of Preaching of Blessed Jesus
30–33 AD=Crucifixion of Blessed Jesus
31-36 AD = Paul conversion to Christianity after Crucifixion (Acts 22:1-22) with help of Barnabas, one of the earliest Christian disciples.
34 AD = Instead of learning Christianity from Blessed Jesus’ Disciples, Paul went to Arabia / Mt. Sinai [Gal. 1:17] for meditation on creation of a new religion in the name of Blessed Jesus. This trip is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible. He describes in Galatians how three years after his conversion he went to Jerusalem.
34-50 AD=Missionary Journeys of Paul with Disciples of Blessed Jesus (Barnabas, St. Peter)
50 AD= Council of Jerusalem between Paul and the Jerusalem church (Acts 15:2 & Galatians 2:1) The council decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the Law of Moses, including the rules concerning circumcision of males. The Council did, however, retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals not properly slain, and on fornication and idolatry. At this meeting, Paul claims in his letter to the Galatians that Peter, James, and John accepted Paul’s mission to the Gentiles.
Paul said that he received the Gospel not from any man, but by “the revelation of Blessed Jesus Christ”.[Gal 1:11-16] Paul claimed independence from the Jerusalem community [Harris, Stephen L. Understanding the Bible. Palo Alto: Mayfield. 1985. ISBN 978-1-55934-655-9, pp.316–320], but was just as quick to claim agreement with it on the nature and content of the gospel.[Gal 1:22-24].
50 AD=Incident at Antioch=Despite the agreement achieved at the Council of Jerusalem, as understood by Paul, Paul recounts how he later publicly confronted Peter in a dispute sometimes called the “Incident at Antioch”, over Peter’s reluctance to share a meal with Gentile Christians in Antioch because they did not strictly adhere to Jewish customs.
Writing later of the incident, Paul recounts, “I opposed [Peter] to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong”, and says he told Peter, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?”[Gal. 2:11-14] Paul also mentions that even Barnabas, his traveling companion and fellow apostle until that time, sided with Peter.[Catholic Encyclopedia: Judaizers]
The final outcome of the incident remains uncertain. The Catholic Encyclopedia suggests that Paul won the argument, because “Paul’s account of the incident leaves no doubt that Peter saw the justice of the rebuke”. L. Michael White’s From Blessed Jesus to Christianity draws the opposite conclusion: “The blowup with Peter was a total failure of political bravado, and Paul soon left Antioch as persona non grata, never again to return”. The primary source account of the Incident at Antioch is Paul’s letter to the Galatians.
57 AD=Last visit of Paul to Jerusalem and arrest:
Paul arrived in Jerusalem on his final visit [Acts 21:17]. Paul was warned by James and the elders that he was gaining a reputation for being against the Law, “teaching all the Jews living among the gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs”.[Acts 21:21] Paul underwent a purification ritual in order to give the Jews no grounds to bring accusations against him for not following their law. Paul caused a stir when he appeared at the Temple, and he escaped being killed by the crowd by voluntarily being taken into Roman custody. When a plot to kill Paul on his way to an appearance before the Jews was discovered, he was transported by night to Caesarea. He was held as a prisoner for years.
Near 65 AD= Neither the Bible nor other sources say how or when Paul died, but Christian tradition holds that Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s.
Lost Barnabas in Bible after fight with Paul:
Hajj Sayed argues that the description of the conflict between Paul and Barnabas in Galatians supports the idea that the Gospel of Barnabas existed at the time of Paul. Blackhirst has suggested, by contrast, that Galatian’s account of this argument could be the reason the gospel’s writer attributed it to Barnabas. [www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/Blackhirst_Barnabas.html] Paul condemns Peter & Brnabas in (Galatians Chapter 2:11-14) due to disagreement with Paul about Gentiles.
Paul was attacking Peter for “trying to satisfy the Jews” by sticking to their laws, such as circumcision. It is contended that at this point Barnabas was following Peter and disagreeing with Paul. Some feel it also suggests that the inhabitants of Galatia at his time were using a gospel or gospels disagreeing with Paul’s beliefs, which Gospel of Barnabas could be one of them (although the Gospel of Peter would seem a more natural candidate, as in the light of the second letter.)
6th Century (Before Islam): A “Gospel according to Barnabas” Clearly contradicting Divinity of Blessed Jesus, Divine Sonship of Blessed Jesus and Trinity is mentioned in two early Christian lists of apocryphal works: the Latin Decretum Gelasianum (6th century), as well as a 7th-century Greek List of the Sixty Books. These lists are independent witnesses.
1698 AD= John Ernest Grabe found an otherwise unreported saying of Blessed Jesus,[Cirillo, Luigi; Fremaux, Michel (1977). Évangile de Barnabé. Beauchesne. p. 244.] attributed to the Apostle Barnabas, amongst the Greek manuscripts in the Baroccian collection in the Bodleian Library; which he speculated might be a quotation from this lost gospel. John Toland translates the quotation as, The Apostle Barnabas says, he gets the worst of it who overcomes in evil contentions; because he thus comes to have the more sin; and claimed to have identified a corresponding phrase when he examined the surviving Italian manuscript of the Gospel of Barnabas in Amsterdam before 1709.
1713= Prince Eugene’s Italian manuscript had been presented to him in 1713 by John Frederick Cramer;[Ragg, L & L (1907). The Gospel of Barnabas. Oxford. pp. x. ISBN 1-881316-15-7.] and was transferred to the Austrian National Library in Vienna in 1738 with the rest of his library.
The Gospel of Barnabas is a book depicting the life of Blessed Jesus, and claiming to be by Blessed Jesus’ disciple Barnabas, who in this work is one of the twelve apostles. Two manuscripts are known to have existed, both dated to the late 16th century and written respectively in Italian and in Spanish—although the Spanish manuscript is now lost, its text surviving only in a partial 18th-century transcript. Barnabas is about the same length as the four Canonical gospels put together, with the bulk being devoted to an account of Blessed Jesus’ ministry, much of it harmonized from accounts also found in the canonical gospels. In some key respects, it conforms to the Islamic interpretation of Christian origins and contradicts the New Testament teachings of Christianity.
This Gospel is considered by the majority of academics, including Christians to be late and pseudepigraphical; however, some academics suggest that it may contain some remnants of an earlier apocryphal work, redacted to bring it more in line with Islamic doctrine. Some Muslims consider the surviving versions as transmitting a suppressed apostolic original. Some Islamic organizations cite it in support of the Islamic view of Blessed Jesus.
25-Bible and Church contradict each other:
Quran: Surah/Chapter 003 – Al-Imrân. Verse 98.
Say: O PEOPLE of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of Allah, when Allah (Himself) is Witness of what ye do?
In order to refute or make pointless the objections on Bible, Christians claim that Blessed Jesus didn’t claim that he was writing a book, Blessed Jesus established Church, and now this is the alive Church which has authority on things such as Trinity, Divinity of Blessed Jesus etc and objections on Bible are pointless.
This argument of Christians could have some weight, if Bible and Church could go together hand in hand. Instead we see lots of contradictions between Bible and Church; these contradictions cancel above mentioned claim of Christians.
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as “father”? (Matt. 23:9).
9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?
[Reference of above 14 Questions:
http://www.bible.ca/cath-bible-origin.htm (Sep 2013)]
In the end, I thank to Madam Jessica for participating in a friendly and respectful Christian Muslim Dialogue, I am sure that readers of this Christian Muslim Dialogue will also have learnt some truth about the two greatest religions of the world i.e. Christianity and Islam.
Regards,
Muhummad Mushtaq Tariq
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