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Catholic Church, Christianity, controversy, Grace, Purgatory, sin
One of the merits of this blog is that one encounters some very able Roman Catholic apologists; Servus Fidelis, is one such, as is Jessica’s friend, Joseph, and they are both well worth reading, not least for those who come to Catholicism with the Protestant view of what it teaches. Our recent discussions on Purgatory and Indulgences have prompted some interesting responses, but I remain unconvinced that Christ’s saving blood was not the once and for all intercession needed to save us.
One of the many false charges levelled at the Catholic Church is that it teaches a works-based salvation. It does not, but it is not too hard to see whence the charge comes. In response to a comment of mine on his blog (and do read the whole series, it taught me much I did not know), Joseph wrote:
The Church eventually comes to speak of a “treasury of merit” from which the pope dispenses satisfaction to apply it to your penance and remit it by means of an indulgence — but what that really means is that somebody — or even everybody, all the righteous people of all the Church — offered up the satisfaction they performed so that united with Christ, they could bear the sufferings of those of us who hurt.
Now then, language matters, and at the words ‘a treasury of merit’, my old Protestant hackles rose. We have no ‘merit’, I am afraid. What we ‘merit’ is damnation for our sins. Nice though the thought is, I do not see how we can cooperate with Christ to bear the sufferings of others, Christ bore that for us all, we are not coeval with him here; he does it alone. The very idea that all the good deeds and prayers somehow add up to a great treasury from which anyone can dispense anything is, in my eyes, a clear invention of man and designed to preserve the privileges and powers of a priestly caste. After all, if you really do believe that Pope has the power to remit aeons of time out of purgatory, what would you not offer the fellow in return?
One of the first acts of the Reformers was to close down chantry chapels. These were non-monastic houses of Religious who were paid (often by endowment) to says masses which would reduce the time of the benefactor in Purgatory. The Reformers, rightly, rejected such an idea: a poor man as much as a great was saved by the blood of the Lamb, and anyone who thought their wealth would get them time off was not reading their Gospel of Luke.
Yes, one can, if one wants, call in aid passages from Maccabees and decide to interpret a passage from Paul as verifying Purgatory and what follows from that belief. But the Orthodox do not so hold, nor does the Reformed Faith. There is no Treasury of ‘merits’, and there is no need to go to the Mother of the Son of Man, or one of his chief courtiers for justice. Those things were products of medieval society, and it was natural for such people to think in such ways. But to do this one needs to catch fragments and to build upon them elaborate superstructures. How much simpler to hold that Christ is the sole intercessor we need (although if one wants to pray to others, fair enough, but why?), and that the Blood of the Lamb saves us all.
Geoffrey, If “those things were products of medieval society” as you state, (with its possible inference that “medieval” means at least ignorant and at worst superstitious), why do you think people you respect like Joseph, Servus Fidelis and Chalcedon still hold them in the 21st century?
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It isn’t that I think medieval times were ignorant, it is simply that the way in which society was structured was different. Then, you did need to intercede with the king’s mother/advisers/courtiers, so it was natural to see God and access to him in that way.
As loyal Catholics they will take that on board, as I am sure you do.
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One has to understand what Catholics mean when we speak of merit: CCC 2008
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
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Servus – ummm I think I preferred it when you were giving stories about boys playing baseball (except that any self respecting red blooded boy would be extremely proud of his achievement if he broke a neighbour’s window).
Either it’s merit or it isn’t merit. There is a paradox at the heart of Scripture, but that doesn’t explain the CCC.
I think that the CCC does nothing to help when it tries to make black = white (explaining that while merit is merit, it isn’t really merit at all).
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It does read, I am afraid, like an attempt to justify what has always been taught, but by saying it isn’t what people thought it was.
Most of us know what anything in the sense of human justice would deliver on us by way of a verdict – and one reason I rejoice is that God’s Grace will see me home.
I disagree with Jock in so far as I know that I could screw things up – like Whitfield in Jessica’s quotation, I am amazed at those who feel they have been sanctified unto salvation – and I could still, were I a bf, reject what has been given to me. But as I am not a bf, I go on my way praising God and thanking him for his great – and unmerited (by me) mercy and goodness.
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Geoffrey – correction – justified unto salvation. That is, Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. The sanctification comes later.
Whitfield was objecting to Wesley’s take on ‘sinless perfection.’ I agree with Whitfield on this one.
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As I do, and I agree with the correction you add.
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Is this not, however, what leads Protestants to say your church teaches a works-based salvation? Where, in Scripture or indeed the early church, is there such an elaborate structure. I don’t see the need for this ‘merit’ business at all. We are saved by Grace, as you say we do nothing to merit that, so what is the evidence that anything we do builds up, or indeed needs to build up, ‘merit’?
This leads straight to a system where men get into the habit of thinking that their works have merit in the eyes of God. That is where I cannot agree. There is no Scriptural evidence, or indeed Patristic evidence, that this is so.
This seems an elaborate, medieval superstructure which justifies the privileges of a priestly caste, helps them control the way their flock behaves, and allows, as it did, the church to exact large sums of money in return, effectively, for promising time off Purgatory for good behaviour.
God’s Grace is free – so it what follows. We don’t need to build up brownie points, and what we merit is what, with God’s Grace, we won’t get.
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If cooperation with Grace is not merit (or gain) then there is no reason for evangelization or doing good or anything else outside of accepting Christ as having taken on the burden for sin. I God did not want us to participate in our salvation, and thus giving us the Grace to do so, then there is no reason to anything but ‘bliss out’ at our wonderful gift of salvation that no one or no action of mine either merits or demerits. I am saved no matter what I do, for what I do makes no difference whatsoever. God desires our transformation in Love and to the degree that we cooperate in this ‘work’ we are afforded ‘merit’ for our freewill gift of self: which is truly the giving of the gift of Christ that He gave us, back to Him. Nothing goes out from the mouth of God that does not go back to Him having accomplished that for which it was sent. Is there gain or loss attributed to our actions once we are converted and have been the recipients of the Holy Ghost?
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The way I would see it is that we don’t cooperate with God because we want to build up merit, but because the love which unfolds in our heart does two things: it makes us want to do the good; and it makes us want to reject sin and the worls of the devil.
So, for me, it isn’t that we are ‘saved’ whatever we do, it is that if we are embarked on the process that us salvation, we don’t need inducements or bonuses. I don’t see God as having an book such as the one I used to keep at School where I would record merits and demerits, and if the little blighters got up to a certain score, they got rewards, and if they fell down to a certain score, they got detention.
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Well you are right Geoffrey about not having a book of merits and demerits but it is more like the parable of the talents in that he wants us to use our abilities to multiply the effects of the gifts that He has given us. We are not to simply bury them away . . . or worse yet, stand in the way of God’s Will.
I would also see a similar message in what Paul said:
“I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”
In other words, Christ wants us to continue the work for the Church. It is this treasury of “works” by those who offer themselves up for the Church (including our prayers for one another) which avails in building up the Church in finishing what is not yet accomplished. God not only recommends that we cooperate with His Gifts, He pretty much demands it.
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I agree entirely, and that is what, if we have Him in us, we are driven to do by love and gratitude; but it is the ‘merit’ thing which bugs me, it just seems like the language of reward; our reward we have already – we are redeemed – of course, we must persevere, and as we do, we are improved and the process of theosis increases.
I do think the Easterners have a better version with theosis.
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I see your point but then I see the fact that the Body of Christ as Paul tells us suffers when any of it members suffer and rejoices when any of the members rejoice. It is a way to convey the gain these souls make for the Church – multiplying the talents so to speak – that gives the Church the ability to call it a treasury. What else could they call it?
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I’m not sure a treasury is the word which comes to my mind, but I am grateful for the explanation.
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If it even can be fully explained. 🙂
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I am following up Mark’s link, which is interesting.
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I just read it. He always sends good links. Scott Hahn makes some very valid points I think. 🙂
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Interesting, but problematic. No one in the OT was going to say they were saved by the blood of the Lamb, so whatever Moses or anyone before Christ said, we know we have one intercessor, and that there is one name above all names.
I see the logic of our winning treasure in Heaven, but nothing about there being a joint treasury in which everyone’s prayers work to help others. Why would we need such help? Christ has given us all the help we could need.
It is an act of kindness to pray for others, but the idea of it all becoming a great treasury still fails to convince me. It is ingenious, but not necessary.
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How do you take Christ’s words in Matthew 13: 51 “Have you understood all this?” They answered, “Yes.” 52 And he said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like the master of a household who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.”
Catholics read that as pulling out the treasure from the New Testament Covenant as well as the treasure from the Old Testament Covenant. For Catholics, Christ perfected the Old Testament he didn’t abrogate it.
And yes, Christ has given us all the help we could need, but as it was up to the saints of the OT Church to build up their treasury, it is up to the saints of the NT Church to do the same. Without participation then God has made us less than human and far less than being made in the image and likeness of God. We would be mere worms placed in the Kingdom to live forever. If God found us worthy of Redemption then we are capable of far more dignity (read righteousness) than we imagine. Cooperation with His grace and helps is what He demands of us.
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I am entirely happy with us cooperating with Grace. I read it as you read it, but see no connection with a collection of everyone’s prayers. Christ heals us, we don’t need anything else. Well, that’s how it seems to this old Baptist, but I am grateful to you – as always.
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As I am of you – I think we always end with a little bit better understanding of one another. 🙂
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And that is to the good. 🙂
In the end, good Catholics will give good reasons, and for those of us not used to thinking in such ways, it is useful to be offered those reasons so well explained.
Mrs S tells me we have a new Prince! That must be a cue for a small sherry!
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Indeed so! My best wishes for the little fellow. 🙂
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Yes, Mrs S and the girls have broached a fresh bottle of sherry – wet his head. I think a nice bottle of beer in order 🙂
Mind, after our success in the cricket, with Yorkshiremen leading the way, we cracked open something a little fizzier 🙂
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Sounds a good day all around. 🙂
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Indeed. For Mrs S it was the baby, for me the cricket 🙂
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I thought as much. 🙂
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Why do you ask for evidence of an “elaborate structure” in the Scripture when I wouldn’t call it elaborate even after 2000 years of growth? If you want scripture, here are just 4 quick ones and there are many more:
John 15:8
” My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.”
Romans 2:6,7
“For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life”
1 Corinthians 3:8
” The one who plants and the one who waters have a common purpose, and each will receive wages according to the labor of each.”
Hebrews 6:10
“For God is not unjust; he will not overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”
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But all this, my good friend, relates to Salvation. We get eternal life, and in our repentance we show we are God’s (which glorifies his holy name in the eyes of men) Our ‘wages’ are salvation, I think.
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That is all good, Geoffrey, and I agree that our repentance gives Glory to His Holy Name (though He stands without need of praise or glory – being Glory itself). It once again, is a point where though god needs no glory and God does not stand in need of our Meritorious Work, it is His Will that we cooperate and join in the Salvation of the World: “take up your cross and follow me.”
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On that we can agree.
I can see, pastorally, how the idea of merit has, if you will pardon the pun, merit, but for me it sets up connotations of our deserving something from God. I know what I deserve – and am amazed at the Grace I got instead.
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Indeed and it is something the church needs to constantly remind us of that we are not to pride ourselves in what is essentially the working of the Holy Spirit though we honor those who have heroically cooperated with the Grace that was given them. Those heroes add to the ‘merit’ but is cooperative ‘merit’, for a lack of a better term. It is like all analogies of what is essentially a mystery. They only can be carried to an extent and then you can no longer tie them to the human experience you are comparing it to. Basically, do you have a better way to explain it, because the Church finds it a great inducement to get people to pay more attention to what they do, how they live, and how often they pray or read the Holy Bible? It tells people in a very understandable way that how they use their “gifts” matters to the Church and to the state of their souls.
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Pastorally, I do understand that.
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Jolly good, my friend. 🙂
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Geoff see link for Scott’s explanation, have to read down a bit
http://thecatholicvoyager.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/what-is-treasury-of-merit.html
Mark
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Thank you – I shall.
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Its unscriptural that we humans assist god in salvation. We are field workers. One plants the seed and another harvests. The land belongs to the landowner.
The CC implies that there is a certain amount of merits to get salvation, and any extra goes into the vaults at the vatican. Then the CC can dish them out to the faithful. One false belief follows another. It doesnt seem to bother the faithful that our good works are filthy rags befor god.
Good brother Jeff, you noticed that they say that human merits are no good and out of the other side of their mouth they say humans build up merits by their actions. One boner deserves another. Poor cathols, they are left behind to twist scripture to justify blatantly fasle ideas. ideas that made the CC very rich. They get the excuses down to an art ive noticed. For them, its a matte of salvation. They cant admit they have been duped, and duped bad. departed catholic loved ones, they have to have died in the true church, or else. Admitting its all a terrible hoax condemns their loved ones who have departed. I stand on the promise that me and my house will be saved. My daughter has been going to gatherings for the last yr or so. To a Calvary and then to another. Too many older people at the calvary. Shes a baby. The departed ones i have no control over.
To suggest their is a merit price for salvation denies Christs sac on the cross as being enough. Who is antichrist? He who denies jesus is the Christ. Christ took away the sins of the world. The CC lays them back on their flock. Well, the unsaved will believe anything. Hope the faithful do something befor its too late and call on Jesus for salvation, as much as you have been warned by your religion not to do that.
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Thanks, Geoffrey, for the kind words. I am supposed to be working on my paper right now, so I am not going to take the time to read yours and Servus’s whole long discussion, so forgive me if I am covering ground already covered — but the best illustration of merit I know of is Christ’s Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25). The Master gives gifts of talents to his servants, and goes away, expecting them to work with the money and produce good fruit. And when he returns, the first two servants have done well, and are rewarded, but the third servant only buried the money and lost his reward. And that’s precisely the Catholic understanding of merit. We have nothing of our own, no ability to produce good works at all, apart from the gifts our Master gives us. All the grace, all the ability, all the talents, even the works themselves, and the will to do them, are His (cf. Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 2:12-14) — but we are expected to work with what He gives us, with the grace He pours out upon us. And if we do well with what we’re given, we are rewarded with eternal life — which is clearly the context of Jesus’s parable (cf. Matthew 25:21, 30). Immediately following (vv. 31-46) He speaks of dividing the sheep and goats. Jesus speaks repeatedly of our reward in Heaven for our good works (Matthew 10:42, Mark 9:41, Luke 6:23, 35), as do the Apostles (Rom 2:7, 1 Cor 3:14, 2 Cor 5:10, 2 John 2:8, 1 Pet 1:17). Do we have to “earn” our salvation, then? Not at all — but we will nonetheless be rewarded for the good we do, Scripture is absolutely clear, most of all with eternal life. Works do not save us, but failing to do any — failing to love those around us, in word and deed — work might damn us (cf. Matthew 25:44-46).
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Ack, I put my em dashes in the wrong places. “Failing to do any work — failing to love those around us, in word and deed — might damn us.” 🙂
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Not “work might damn us.” 😉 Although I have gotten that impression from some hardcore sola fid-ists, that doing any work at all detracts from “salvation by faith alone” and will damn us.
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Reward in heaven is another issue entirely from salvation all are saved by grace but the degree to which we are faithful determines the reward. Paul teaches on this in Corinthians when He talks about the differences in glory in the resurrection. Besides the passage you quote seems to have no relevance to merit from a saint being attributed to another with too many demerits so to speak.
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I’m only citing what Jesus said:
Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
That seems to pretty strongly relate doing good works of charity to the reward of eternal life. To the good and faithful servants in the parable of the talents, the Master said, “Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.”
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I do not read the parable of the talents has having anything to do with salvation but has to do with rewards. Those rewards will a matter of responsibility and service in the age to come. The outer darkness speaks of the loss experienced by unfaithful servants. Paul speaks of those who are saved but their works which have been of no worth are burnt up but yet they are saved.
I agree our reward will be for good work where I disagree is that the reward is salvation. I think generally there has been such a focus on salvation that little else is seen in scripture – when in fact there is much more suggested there.
In the parable of the unjust steward Jesus speaks of those who make friends through the use of their material resources saying they have an abundant entrance into the kingdom of God. I take this to mean in using their resources for the work of the kingdom and winning souls to Christ they make eternal friends. Presumably those who do not use their resources in this manner will not have such an abundant entrance. So entering into the Joy of the Lord need not be read as equivalent to salvation. But a sharing in the joy and satisfaction of Christ as a result of having been a co-worker with Christ in life.
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When you presume from the very start that salvation is “by faith alone” (which Scripture never says) and that works have no role to play in our salvation, and then subject all the rest of Scripture to that assumption, it is really incredible how far you can stretch your interpretation. Jesus is emphatic — telling not just one, but two parables and a vivid illustration in Matthew 25, each time being all but explicit that his parables refer to eternity and judgment:
(1) The Parable of the Ten Bridesmaids: “And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”
(2) The Parable of the Talents: “Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.” “And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The “outer darkness” and “weeping and gnashing of teeth” are clear and unambiguous metaphors for eternal damnation, which Jesus used frequently (cf. Luke 13:28, Matthew 13:42).
(3) The Sheep and the Goats: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.” “The righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’” “Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
In the context of passage, either all of these are teachings about eternity, or none of them are. You can’t just suppose the middle one about something else. And the teaching is quite clear that we will be judged for our works.
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Joseph said: “When you presume from the very start that salvation is “by faith alone” (which Scripture never says) and that works have no role to play in our salvation, and then subject all the rest of Scripture to that assumption, it is really incredible how far you can stretch your interpretation.”
It is also vice versa when you presume that salvation is by faith + works of the Law but I do not believe either. You may also not believe in legalist works – I will elaborate later.
I do not believe in either salvation by faith alone or salvation by faith + works of the Law.
I believe in salvation by grace Eph. 2:8 and that it is through faith. Faith being the mechanism (for want of a better term) through which we receive God’s grace. A salvation that is “not as a result of works that no one should boast 2:9 “for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus” 2:10.
Salvation is a creative act of God what could you or I contribute to it are you or I a creator. The logical conclusion of salvation by faith + works of Law (a legalistic transaction whereby my work earns salvation as a reward) make me a co-creator and that’s a blasphemy if we were to claim it being aware of the logic of our claim.
What scripture teaches is that we are justified by faith without the works of the Law. By faith I understand not just belief but a living trust and reliance entirely on Christ. Abraham’s faith was not a subscription to a set of beliefs but a trust in the living God for the miraculous birth of his son and Paul explains that this teaching ultimately meant that Abraham had faith for the birth of his seed (singular) through the birth of Christ through whom he would inherit the world. This is the tremendous act of God in the creation of a new humanity. “If any man is in Christ he is a new creation”.
So in Rom.4:2 again we see all this is without works leaving no room for the boasting of man. So Abraham believed God and it we reckoned (laid to his account) as righteousness”. Our justification and righteous position before God is through faith our trust in Him 4:3. “Now to the one who works his wage is not reckoned as a favour but as what is due” 4:4.
This is clearly opposed to your concept of a reward for works if “the gift of righteousness” is based in any way on works it becomes “what is due”. This is the very point of the parables the faithful servants are rewarded it is what is due. But that cannot mean this free gift of imputed righteousness.
How do you otherwise explain Rom 4:5 and continuing through chapter 5 which IS explicit? So what we claim is that we interpret text Joseph has referred to as “non explicit” by texts that are explicit. Also Rom. 6:23 a gift is not earned the only wages I can expect from God with reference to salvation is no wage at all just death see also Rom. 3:23-24.
This view is not derived from an assumption but by a harmonisation of the clear statements of scripture.
We must also consider the word “alone” in your statement of by “faith alone”.
James is clear “faith without works” James 2:17 and that a faith that has no works cannot save 2:14. At first this seems to be a contradiction with Paul and Luther did not get it to the extent he called James an epistle of straw.
But that is not the case the harmonisation is found when we realise that Paul was talking of works of the Law the fulfilment of which would earn eternal life as what is due. But James was talking about works of faith – faith actions or faith in action. So Abraham believed God that through Isaac his seed would be as the sand of the sea but if he had refused to sacrifice him he would have in fact proved his unbelief. However we are told he believed that God could have raised Isaac from the dead so his faith was an active faith. Also Rahab the prostitute she could never have been justified by the work of the Law but was justified by a work of faith – hanging a red cord from her window.
James mentions the acts of Charity that evidence that our faith is alive in 2:15-16. If we as human beings are action-less we are dead and so it is with faith. James compares this action-less faith with the “belief” of the demons 2:19 but contrast this faith with that of Abrahams which is reckoned to him as righteousness exactly as Paul has stated 2:23. It is in this sense that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone 2:24. The following formula may help.
Protestants believe the Catholic Formula is FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION
Whereas scripture is clear FAITH = SALVATION + WORKS
However to reiterate we must define faith not as belief but as an active trust that is evidenced by works of faith. So my position is that FAITH if it is faith in the Biblical sense is never alone.
By the imputation of righteousness by trust in God my relationship is restored with him. I am now in a state with God in terms of relationship as Adam was prior to the fall. A relationship that trusts Him rather than the enemies lies. I have become his child. My sons do many things that offend me and I may exercise discipline but whatever they know they are my sons and our relationship is not built on their performance but established upon my unconditional love towards them. As long as they trust in that love our relationship will continue and their offences are covered ‘love covers a multitude of sins”. I see what God has done in restoring our relationship with Himself through “trust” reflected in how every relationship works and that it is the only way any relationship can work.
Jesus was once asked “What must we do to work the works of God and answered ‘this is the work of God that you believe on the one whom who God has sent”. This is THE WORK it does not negate all that has been said above but encapsulates it all.
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Rob – that is a formulation on which it is, in my view, impossible to improve – I think that should go straight into a post. In more than fifty years of apologetics, that is the best short summary of the Reformed position I have read; I take my hat off to you, sir!
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Joseph quoted: “Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
John tells us that if we say we love God but do not love our brother – its just words a false claim. The way I understand the above is that our care for our brother is the evidence of our relationship with Christ and not that the works of charity we do toward our brother brings us the reward of Salvation.
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Thats rite good brother Rob. Once one is born again, one sees what is important in life and does those things. The unsaved can talk till they are blue in the face about salvation, that they dont have and cant see. To them it is a ghost that they chase, or pie in the sky that they hope to get. The saved know they are saved, because they know Christ.
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Bosco – sums it up beautifully. God bless you.
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Jock have I been partly rehabilitated? LOL
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I wasn’t aware you needed it Rob:)
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Jock is averse to all that is Charismatic or mystical as I see these terms apply to all believers with ant personal experience of the Lord.
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Me too – and, inspired by your post, I have one for tomorrow on ‘Amazing Grace’ and John Newton to illustrate what Grace means to me.
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Geoffrey – of course, if it makes you feel happy, you can make terms that have an established meaning mean something else – then you don’t see the danger.
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On the meaning of terms we might consider Ludvick Vitchenstien . Terms are frequently filled out with our own experience of them and I gather that Jock your experience of the term in question has been harmful so I understand your concerns. This has been true for many people in various branches of Christianity and to be regretted.
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Indeed, Rob – and danger is to be found in our generalising our experience and thinking because x and y are odd/mad, so must others be. I don’t know what Jock would have made of the Apostles at Pentecost. 🙂
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Geoffrey – if someone who didn’t know my language spoke to me articulately and intelligently in my language, I’d probably take this seriously – and be in the number of those who believed.
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Or some historic evangelical revivals e.g. with Wesley and Whitfield. But negative experience takes a lot to correct, words are rarely enough a stable carring community is frequently more effective.
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True, Rob, and as Jock currently has no church, that impression is not going to be worked on any time soon.
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Rob – one useful book was ‘The Forgotten Spurgeon’ by Iain Murray – compare and contrast Spurgeon and Moody.
I’m not really into ‘what if’ games (what if Mahatma Ghandi had come from Belfast – would he have worn warmer clothing?) but I think I may have reacted well to Spurgeon and very badly to Moody.
Whitfield and Wesley – probably my cup of tea.
Ultimately, though, it is God who brings people to him and these ‘what if’ questions are somewhat irrelevant.
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What I was referring to with Wesley and Whitfield was that there were some very emotional responses in their meeting but I do not think they whipped it up.
I can’t speak for Ghandi but my uncle was a private in the army in India and was on guard duty looking after Ghandi in Poona jail at one time – family claim to infamy I say.
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Iain Murray’s point exactly – with Spurgeon there were emotional responses but he didn’t whip it up.
Moody and Sankey did.
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The issue as I see it is are the responses worked up by fleshly effort or is it a work of the Holy Spirit. If we are seeking to live a life in conformity with the Lord’s will and are humbly trusting Him I think we are well placed to discern the difference.
I could recount a numerous of responses is ordinary situation where I was convinced God was active.
A simple incident when I was very young still a member of the ‘Open Brethren’. I taught a Sunday school class of boys and a young lady taught a class of girls. Most of these young people were converted in one season.
One of the girls one evening started to talk of her father’s cruelty and the other girls cried in sympathy. One of the boys came in about one of the only ones who had not made a response to the Lord. He started to cruelly laugh at the girls because they were in tears. No one said anything to him as he turned to leave the room quite soon.
As he did he was struck to the floor and burst into tears. I thought that God had respected the compassion of these young ladies showed for one another, protected the work he was doing in their young lives and humbled the young man.
I can see value in this sort of event which I what I would call Charismatic.
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Sorry Jock what I meant was a community that showed care, support and compassion
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‘Carrying community’ is another happy phrase that doesn’t appear in Scripture. What was Elijah’s carrying community
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Rob – there’s more to it than that.
As I indicated to Servus yesterday, I don’t have time to write something in response to him about mysticism in a way that does justice to the topic – but I feel that the Charismatic tendency and mysticism come under the same umbrella.
It is true that I encountered the dark side of the moon – and seriously evil people in the Charismatic Anglican church that I attended (regularly for a full 12 weeks), but this only confirmed things that I had already suspected.
When you give support to the Anglican Hollinghurst and his attempt to witness to pagans – well, my first response is that he probably won’t have much work to do, because paganism is pretty close to what I saw of the charismatic side of the Anglicans.
When I came to read Bruner’s ‘The Mediator’ (I scuffed through it approximately 15 years ago, and then read it more carefully recently), I thought that he presented very compelling arguments that ‘mysticism’ (which would probably include much of the Charismatic tendency) is opposed to Christianity – at its base, it attempts to find ways of getting close to God that bypass The Mediator.
When I have time, I’ll try to precis his arguments; don’t have time for it now.
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I will look forward to that Jock as until I understand better you bad experience and concerns I really could not comment we may be more on the same page than you imagine.
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Jock – I think you’ll find you’ve done that – mysticism and charism have been part of the Christian vocabulary since the year dot – to decide they are bad things because of their misuse is akin to the old nose being cut off because the face needs spiting.
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Geoffrey – well, you probably know more about their correct use and mis – use than I do. Briefly – as far as I can see – it has always been a case of what Christ has given us isn’t good enough; we want some more.
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I hope no Christian thinks that Jock. For me it is about going more deeply into the infinite reality of what Christ brings. It is when it gets divorced from Christ that it goes wrong – and like you, I have seen what happens then – and share your dislike of it.
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I don’t know – when did you last have a drink? LOL!
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Bosco I was saved when I was 11 years old and never doubted it or been lost these last 56 years since it’s called grace!
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Grace is all – as John Newton put it:
Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.
Amen.
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So if I understand your position “Faith is all that is necessary…but good works are a consequence of it.” Yes?
But what when someone’s faith doesn’t result in good works, what then?
It must follow that they aren’t justified.
So good works (of mercy – not the law) must be required and necessary then.
Ha! You say “if there are no works, then it’s not real faith”
But that’s clearly a contradiction of the first principle of Faith Alone, Because as soon as good works are taken away, you can no longer believe that faith alone is justifying, and to say its not real faith.. well now who is being infallible?
No wonder this position is confused, like it or not the only position on justifying faith and works (of mercy) that is credible is that of the Catholic Church and on reflection I believe you are saying that your definition of a justifying faith includes good works. Because as soon as good works are taken away, you can no longer believe that faith alone is justifying.
pax Christi
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The works I am talking about are faith in action.
They are works of faith their motivation is in no way directed at earning salvation, they are the overflow of heart filled with faith.
I think what I have said is clear if you want to make more of it seems you may still have a hankering to be rewarded with salvation. I have no such inclination whatsoever.
I am at rest and have ceased from my own works altogether. Look up Hebrews 4 and see if the Lord speaks to you there. Be blessed!
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Mark said: “I believe you are saying that your definition of a justifying faith includes good works.”
Sorry mark I have just noticed your emphasis on ‘good works’. Somehow that misses the point of what I’m saying but it is not easy to express any more clearly. It’s not even that I on some quest to do ‘good works’ for any purpose.
The issue is I have been (past tense) “created in Christ” the creative process is accomplished “for good works that God has prepared beforehand for me to walk in” Eph 2:10. The works are the doing of all things for the glory of Christ. There’s no looking around for a few good work to ‘do’ to earn some merit. There’s a life lived seeking first the kingdom of God and walking out all the opportunity of service to God he places before us. This became a desire planted in me the day I became a Christian at the age of 11 I am now 67 and the desire has remained constant.
Along with this new creation grace that the Lord gives there is also the distribution of some charism, some particular gifting of the Spirit to accomplish the types of works he has for prepared for us. Rom 12. 1 Cor 12 & 14 Eph 4.
I’ll also quote the Hebrews passage “For the one who has entered His (i.e. God’s) rest has himself also rested from his (i.e. my works) works as God did from His. Heb 4:10. There are no works of mine to be done for any reason, but a response to be made to the Lord as He presents something for me to do in faith an if what I do is not done in faith as an act of faith it’s not acceptable and is not a work that will withstand the test of fire, but just wood hay and stubble as Paul says. So it is in fact possible to do a lot of works that are spiritually meaningless and I’m sure you could think of many reasons that would put our self done works in this category. e.g.pride, selfish ambition and the list could be endless. In fact a scripture on our whole life’s action’s runs like this – “Whatsoever is not of faith it is sin”
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Yet again sorry mark I keep seeing other points in what you write that I need to respond to. What you should realise first is that I am not trying to defend any Protestant formula as I said clearly that I did not believe in ‘FAITH ALONE’. What I explained was that FAITH IS NEVER ALONE, it is accompanied by works of faith. That is the clear teaching of James ch 2 and Paul in Eph. 2:10
Works of faith are qualitatively and substantially different from both ‘works of Law’ and ‘good works/works of charity’. A ‘good work/work of charity’ may be a work of faith or it may be a work of something other e.g. pride
I think this is clear in scripture which is where the Infallibility lies.
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Good for you good brother Rob. One day, can you tell me how you got saved/bprn again? thanks.
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Briefly Bosco – My mother died during my birth and my father and I went to live with my uncle and aunt. Dad and uncle had little to do with me they returned from work to go to the pub; I referred to both of them as dad and my aunt as mum. So from here on I refer to mum, she was a Catholic but had lost a child at birth and then a grown daughter for her whole life she told me she hated God – she believed that the loss of her children was His punishment due to her having her first child out of wedlock.
My father died when I was 15 and I was adopted by my aunt and uncle at that time as I put I took over my father’s responsibility which was to fight with my uncle/father on his return from the pub to prevent him beating up mum.
They sent me to an ‘Open Brethren Sunday School Mission’ at the age of 11 I asked Christ to take over my life as saviour and have never doubted the experience was real to this day. The teacher simply presented Jn. 3:16 which he personalised
“For God so loved Rob that He gave his only begotten Son so that if Rob believes on Him Rob should not perish but have eternal life”.
That was good enough for me and I have known I am secure in Him ever since.
On returning home that day I was elated and went to tell my mother and father (aunt and uncle). A few days later having done something minor wrong as a child I was ridiculed to neighbours by my mum ‘last week he became a Christian but ever since he’s been a little ‘b’”
If there was not some work of grace in my life, if as a child I had thought my security in my relationship to Jesus rested in my works or performance my drunk atheist father and my continually criticising mother would have brought an end to it. So after 56 years of security in Him and a lot more understanding gleaned from His word a few challenges on this site will accomplish nothing to create doubt about my security in Christ. I came to him as a child in need His promise to me is “I should in no wise be cast out” If any here have a god who does not keep his promise they can keep him, he is not the ‘God’ I know.
Mum was very loving not cruel just so bitter towards God I got all the backlash of it. I carried a concern for her as long as she lived; she was the great evangelistic work God placed before me. Growing up I often I felt under the criticism that if my life for Christ were better she would come to know Him. So living up to what I believed to the best of my efforts was my constant goal but I never measured up to mums requirement. Thank God he was more forgiving.
Many years past and many attempts to break into mum’s heart with God’s Love but her Catholic image of a judgemental God kept her bitter and her fear of hearing anything from outside her Church even though she had nothing to do with it from the age of 16 kept the door to her heart shut to His grace.
In 1983 I was now 37 years old when mum was rushed into hospital and slipped into unconsciousness, and we were told she would not live. Would I get another opportunity to impress the grace of God upon her? For three days mum was my constant concern, I thought of nothing else and could not eat I was in constant pray during which time the Lord told me she would be OK.
I visited and walked up to her hospital bed where she was unconscious or asleep. She woke and sat up I talked of God’s love and asked her to pray with me which she agreed to, the one and only time she did so. In a very sweet way asking forgiveness for all her sins and trusting herself to into Christ keeping – she continued in prayer thanking God for His care of all those she loved and I knew the battle was over and she was reconciled to the Lord. She lay down and died immediately. It’s called Grace!
To bring you up to date:
I’ve spent a lifetime working for my living but my prime concern has been serving Christ. I have met some wonderful people and seen some miraculous events.
The last 6 years I have been doing mission work in Barbados where I went to live. I miss home where naturally I would rather be there. But moved to assist a friend who was mentoring a small network of house churches and this is where the work has taken us. It’s not been easy and currently I am unwell (which what gives me more time to be on this site). Also my wife has been seriously ill she had an infection due to poor medical care there following an operation, she has needed continual procedures with about 8 surgical procedures in less than that number of weeks. So your prayers would be appreciated.
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Oh man, and lots of us think we have it bad. befor my mother died, i again told her thatshe needed to know Jesus. At her funeral, the pastor said that she told him what i told her
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Hi Rob,
I’m afraid my boss wants my works every day and won’t accept them on faith alone so I don’t get half the time I would like to spend on these discussions.
Anyway thinking about your understanding of justification perhaps we are not that far apart. I tend to use links when someone else has already written what I think and why re-invent the wheel. So please read the link carefully:
http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.HTM
Now Rob I take it you are not one who believes “justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification”, though I suspect some of your admirers do, but I guess you subscribe to a fides formata or faith formed by charity soterology. If so, then I believe we mean the same thing in matters Faith.
pax Christi
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Mark – thank you so much for the link it really is helpful in understanding current Catholic thought. If what I read is where you stand we are not far apart intellectually in our understanding.
First a reflection on the reformation: First going back to the reformation division the post justifies somewhat the definitions of Catholicism. I do not think Luther or others reformers were ever supporting faith as intellectual belief alone. They were also reacting to great abuses which I think you will probably agree ant the reaction against works were works was an understanding of works of a very gross sort of earning your salvation. I say most of this by way of supposition as I have not read in detail about the reformation.
I am in agreement with what I read. But would need to explore what is meant by ‘formed by charity’. As I see it at conversion the in Catholic terms the virtues of faith, hope (for me in experience it was an assurance) and love are imparted to the human spirit and produce justification. However if this ‘formed faith’ was misunderstood to mean particular acts of charity added to faith to earned salvation I would disagree and as I read the link it also disagrees with this error.
I did not get my faith by working out a correct formula or understanding of it. I just surrendered my life to Jesus as an 11 year old child and got the package. It has remained alive and active ever since. John says “He that has the Son has the …” whole lot so to speak 1 Jn. 5:1:2.
It was never really an it, or a package of virtues that I got; it was so much more it was Jesus. In him are all the virtues. If talking to children about getting eternal life I illustrate with a bag of sweet the one that has the bag has all the sweeties.
Mow mark we could agree on the correct understanding and form of words but if I had not received Christ as my lord and saviour I would never have received those virtues as they are in Christ. If I had not surrendered to Him I could have the formula but no reality.
Now I the definition of faith in the link is good but I prefer the Biblical definition:
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen … by it … men of old gained a testimony”.
By faith Able offered a better sacrifice – By Faith Enoch was translated – By Faith Noah built an ark – By Faith Abraham lived as an alien in the land of promise – By Faith Sarah conceived … By Faith Moses chose affliction … By Faith they passed through the Red sea … By Faith the walls of Jericho fell … By Faith they conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong … women received their dead back to life, other were tortured not accepting their release so that they might obtain a better resurrection, others experienced mocking and scourging, chins, prison, stoning. Being sawn in half – destitute, afflicted ill treated men of whom this world is not worthy – This is FAITH.
And God has provided something better for us Mark what will accomplish by faith for Him who loves us and sacrificed so much for us: I’ll tell a little incident I experienced:
I was knocking doors in London looking for people that I could help towards Jesus and faith in Him. A man came to his door he quickly got the idea why I was there saying he could not talk for long. He said I’m in pain with gall bladder problems I’m a Greek Orthodox but I’ve been listening to the Jehovah’s Witnesses that call on me. How sad he probably thought I was one as the rest of us get out to other too infrequently. Anyway I immediately knew what to say and do. I said well I’m orthodox as well (notice small ‘o”).
I quickly summarised the main points of our common orthodox faith – I believe God made a beautiful world – man sinned messed it up – Jesus came born of the virgin – lived a perfect life as our example – was crucified died and rose paying the penalty for all our sin and promised to be with us forever.
I asked is that what you believe to which he replied yes. This is what I had prepared him for. So I said you believe there are not just two of us here on this doorstep Jesus is here now with all the love for you and power He ever had – again he said yes. So I simply said in that case in the name of Jesus I command that pain to leave you now and asked him what was happening. He said I feel a heat where the pain was and the pain has left.
I was not interested in encouraging him to any other church but said so then you stick with your Orthodox faith and keep away from those Jehovah’s Witnesses’. We shook hands and I left.
I should explain that besides the saving faith we have spoken of 1 Cor. 12 it of a Charisma, a grace gift of faith this may be imparted by the Spirit for a life of particular service or for a situation of another’s need to be met by a supernatural work of charity in the power of the Holy Spirit.
As soon as that man told me he was in pain and truth of his orthodoxy was being challenged by JW’s I was given a gift of faith and was absolutely sure he would be healed and that it would encourage his faith.
By faith they Hebrews 11 – by faith we Mark what are we going to do for our master? I’ve been ill for a while and unable to do much so I do mean we and I’m not just giving you a dig in the ribs so to speak – I hope this post encourages your faith – it’s certainly helped mine to write if.
May you keep close by Him and in His presence.
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Sounds like ‘merit’ piled up in some dispenser’s warehouse might have led logically to selling indulgences and all that related mischief. It also sounds like the application of caulking to chinks after the house has been built. If I have followed:
1.All agree an initially unacceptable condition is converted to acceptability by a one-step process that calls on Christ-provided salvation. Whether this can be infant baptism or requires adult understanding and choice seems disputed.
2. Post this initiation, whether avoiding sin guarantees salvation or additional positive works are required seems disputed. Understandable with the supply of sinless as it is.
3. Pursuing required works, how to value and apply them becomes an issue. Spiritual accounting rules remaining unpublished. that seems to remain a work in progress.
4. Post-initiation sin is forgivable by various unagreed means; and somehow ameliorated as a consequence of the aforesaid works and the first is agreed, the second, disputed. . ,
I hope that I have got this right…
Personally, I’m troubled by the idea of God dictating ancient mystery recipes as the sole guide for salvation from the weaknesses He designed into us.
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