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Fr Aidan Kimel’s thought-provoking series on St Isaac prompt me to a post. Francis Phillips commented, correctly, that the Catholic Church has not held, dogmatically, that Purgatory is a place, and Fr Aidan responded:
This is accurate, if we restrict ourselves to the magisterial teaching of the Latin Church. But it also the case that over the centuries plenty of Latin theologians have understood purgatory, as well as hell, as a place. It’s not clear to me when Catholic theologians stopped thinking of Purgatory in this way.
The distinction drawn between the Magisterial teaching of the Church and the views of individual theologians is critical here. One often reads that the Church teaches x or y, when a more accurate rendering would be that theologians x and y have given that as their opinion. Because of the sheer mass of writing in the Latin tradition, the number of theological opinions expressed is nearly infinite. If the Church has not commented adversey upon those views, they can be held by the faithful; if the Church has definitively said that such a view cannot be held, then they cannot. Thus, on Universalism, there is some doubt as to whether the views condemned at the fifth Council were accurate representations of what Origen wrote, but none that we cannot hold dogmatically the belief that all will be saved. However, were one to express (as Jess often does) the hope that this might be so, then, as long as she does not insist it is so, she expresses what the church calls a pious opinion.
It is natural enough to wish to see hell as St Isaac does, which is that it is the same place as Heaven, but when experienced by those who reject God’s love, it is terrible for them, but that, I am afraid, requires us to read Scripture as allegory too much for the taste of Catholic theologians. Whilst they acknowledge (as they might well, for it is so) that we are told little about hell, they do know what we are told, and it is always that it is another place, and that God is active in sending people there, as in Matthew 22:11-14. If we take Matthew 25 seriously, those who do not prepare for the coming of God will find themselves locked out of Heaven. Lest we missed it, Matthew 13 tells us that:
Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
WHen He comes, the Son of Man will divide the sheep from the goats, the one will go into everlasting life, the other to eternal punishment. And, as the story of Dives and Lazarus informs us, there is an unbridgeable gulf between Hades and Abraham’s bosom, and it is plain that there are people in Hades and that they are suffering.
It would be pleasant and much more in keeping with modern theological trends, to hold what St Isaac holds, but in order to hold it, I am afraid one has to discount far too much scripture.
The Latin Church has never stated dogmatically that Purgatory is a place, but it has stated that hell is. Fr. Aidan offers a fascinating Patristic florilegium here, but, of course, as he himself says, such things are never wholly satisfactory, although this one is superb. The Orthodox, of course, have no one bishop who may speak with authority for all, the Roman Church does, and so, for me and for many, rather than pitch our learning against that of the voice of the ages, we accept what the Church says.
Interesting post
FYI Is it true that the Pope is visiting quack faith healer ‘john of god’ in Brazil., who has shamelessly been promoted and made famous/infamous by Oprah and just recently claims to be honored by the Catholic Church to a knight commander in the Papal Order of St Gregory. Pretty bizarre for a guy who claims to ‘heal’ with the spirits of dead people and by sticking forceps up one’s nose! Photos of signed ‘documents’ @
http://lakishajj.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/faith-healer-medium-john-of-god-honoured-by-pope/
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Alas, I have no inner conduit to the ways of the Vatican, so can’t say; it looks odd, but then that does not mean it won’t be so.
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Seems a clever hoax. I can find nothing in the news or from any other source that would confirm this. The closest thing I got to a “Catholic” response to this John of God in Brazil was on a Carmelite page that described him as a guru or witch doctor. Doesn’t sound like the Catholic Church will be honoring him any time soon.
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Had we still had Benedict XVI, I could have answered firmly in the negative; with Francis I, well, I still hope not. As you say, hoaxes are common enough in this area.
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I know what you mean, I had to go to the web to confirm what the new Pope is doing as well. We do not yet have a firm grasp on who he is or the kind of Pope he will be. But this kind of sabotage is usual for all the Popes.
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It is indeed. He is the Holy Father, and so gets the benefit of every doubt, and there is no doubt that the lamestream media has an agenda, which is to paint him as a liberal; we shall see.
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Yes, there is still much unfolding to take place before we can make an honest assessment.
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Very much so.
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Servus Fidelis
Seems like. This is all part of new age deceptions, new age ‘doctors’ are claiming recognition and affirmation by the Catholic Church to fool the sick, gullible and desperate. It’s more then sad! It’s criminal!
This is what started my search.. Toronto news article..@
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=191563
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Lakisha, I see why you ask. The document, supposedly from Benedict XVI is completely foolish. Pope Benedict XVI (I’ve read enough of him to say quite assuredly) would never honor such a one as this.
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Servus,
Well, it looks real enough! with signatures and everything! And those people says its real. So it must be true? How can one tell( other than with your nose)
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Can you read it, Lakisha? It is intentionally out of focus and we can’t see any signatures or verify who they are or we could make inquiries easily. Likewise, do you really think that such a thing like this would have escaped all the mainstream media and especially the Catholic media? It can’t happen: L’Osservatore Romano would have been all over this story as would a host of other news sites I monitor daily. It is a hoax.
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Dear Servus Fidelis,
please forgive me, my vision is not quite what it used to be! Or my sense, either. But, I can plainly see the ‘signed document’ in question by Cardinal Bertone in this photo @http://lakishajj.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/pope-order.png
and
http://www.hospitaller-soulspirithealing.org/john-of-god-recognized-and-honoured-by-the-catholic-church/
Of course, I don’t know what Cardinal Bertone’s signature looks like, but it appears like others that are posted.
As to my sense: I have checked this quite thoroughly. And these photos and claims are being crassly advertised on their web pages. I can’t explain why this has escaped notice. But we’ll see
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lakishajohnson: A non -practicing Lutheran Kiran Schmidt was appointed Grand Master Hospialler by Cardinal Bertone and it was Kiran who conferred the title on John of God.
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Great post C. Though I admire greatly the love of St. Isaac for God, I had some reservations when Church theology or doctrines seemed simply to be that which should be discarded. I’ve always seen Church teaching as an aid to our spirituality rather than a burden to be tossed aside.
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I agree. We have to remember that he wrote in the context of the Church of the East in the seventh century, and I have never been clear that we have fully contextualised what he says.
I understand why he has become popular, but as with all saints, their opinions are just that – their opinion. Where they conform with the dogma and doctrine of the Church, they can be accepted by all; when they don’t, not.
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Agreed. To the point and pithy, sir. 🙂
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Thank you. 🙂
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It would be pleasant and much more in keeping with modern theological trends, to hold what St Isaac holds, but in order to hold it, I am afraid one has to discount far too much scripture.
Thats the first time ive seen a catholic admit that early Cc theologians can and do go against scripture. Ive always maintained that good brother Chalcedon is my hero.
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Far too kind of you, Bosco.
St Isaac, was, in any case, a member of the Church of the East. But, just to please you, I have a piece coming up which takes this argument further.
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Church of the east? Is that bad or good? Sounds bad. I hope the CC isnt divided up into 30,000 differents sects, like the devilish Luther kissing prots?
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If you type into the search facility ‘Church of the East’ you’ll get Jessica’s take on it. It was the church outside of the Roman Empire, so never part of the Roman Catholic Church.
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I’m delighted that you have mentioned my series on St Isaac of Ninevah here on your blog. This wonderful saint and Church Father needs to be more widely known in the West. Back in 2008 Met Hilarion gave a talk on St Isaac at the World Mercy Congress (http://goo.gl/GWIEP9).
I think you are correct that the kind of universalism advanced by St Isaac and St Gregory of Nyssa has been dogmatically excluded by the Roman Magisterium–at least so I have read.
It’s not clear to me that the Magisterium dogmatically insists that hell is a “place.” See, e.g., JPII’s catechesis on hell: http://goo.gl/E2yuyK. For the Orthodox, though, it might make sense to speak of Gehenna as a place, given that Gehenna is intrinsically tied to the general resurrection. Are resurrection bodies spatially located? Given that we do not know what we are talking about, circumspection is probably the best policy. 🙂
Thank you again for your article and link to my blog. I’ll try to get back to you on your NT references. I do not think that the exegesis of the cited texts are as clear as you think.
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Fr Aidan, Jessica has a long standing interest in St Isaac, stimulated in part by the content of my library. Your series, along with the work of Metropolitan Hilarion, greatly helps us to understand him. I wish Sebastian Brock would write something more to help us contextualise St Isaac, as it seems to me his work should be read along side some of the writings of Theodore of Mopsuestia, with which it looks to me as though he must have been familiar. Those works were, of course, not anathematised in the East
The Blessed John Paul’s statements are, I think, a good summation of one line of Latin thinking; there are, of course, others.
With resurrection bodies, you are correct, we must proceed with extreme caution 🙂
On the NT exegesis, yes, I am familiar with what the late Fr Brown wrote, but my own rule here is that if one has to do too much explaining away the scopos, one if probably showing off one’s erudition; this is fine, but can mislead the faithful unless one takes care.
Thank you for your interest in Jessica’s blog, and for your own writing.
C451
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In one of his general audiences in 1999 Bl John Paul II said:
~~The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell'” (n. 1033).~~
“Rather than” translates the Italian “più che” – which really means “more than”, so John Paul was saying that hell is “more than a place” – that it transcends our this-worldly understanding of place. In other words, we can’t avoid speaking of heaven and hell and purgatory as places, because to speak in any other way would be to operate beyond the limits of human language and understanding. But, when we are talking about the world of angels and demons and resurrected bodies (whether glorified or otherwise), we aren’t using words like “place” in the sense in which we use them of the visible world in which we currently live. At the same time, John Paul doesn’t say that hell is not a place – just that it is more than a place.
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Thank you, Mark. That makes sense. I know that Raymond Brown and others have tried to explain away what has seemed to many to be the plain sense of Scripture here; admiring as I am of the ingenuity, I am uneasy, as I told Fr Aidan, when exegesis does too much by way of mental gymnastics. As you indicate, the ‘place’ where the damned live is unclear, but we have always called it hell, and I cannot imagine how it could be Heaven for the blessed to see the damned in pain.
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You guys havent done your homework, either that, or you dont believe whats in the bible. Hell isnt the final place. i will hold a contest. A big tribute to the one who first comes up with the correct answer.
The question. If hell isnt the final place of torment, what is?
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Well, since Sheol is the abode of the dead, it can’t be that, and since Hades and Hell are interchangeable, not that; I do hope you are not opting for Gehenna – partly because that would necessitate a long post 🙂
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“and death and HELL were cast into the lake of fire” I think is how the text goes
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Bingo. Good brother Rob got it. I owe you a place of honor on my highly recommended site. Lake of Fire. Yes. I saw some of the religious in here were struggling with hell bing a place or just imagination or what ever they com up with. They never bother to read furthur. there is a real honest to goodness lake that burns with fire. Yes folks and its real. So you can stop day dreaming about hell, because death and hell are going to be tossed into the lake. Death is real also. Its not some picture with a doily around it and babies with wings. Its real and its a place. As we die, we find out fast who is in charge of the spirit world. For those epecting Mary to greet them, well, good luck. Those expecting Krishna to pull them up by their hair, well, good luck.
eave it to good brother Rob, he knew the answer rite away. thats what happens when you know the bible. And even possibly know Christ.
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David,
This gets weirder and weirder!!!
So you think the signed ‘document’ is genuine???
A genuine document of the Catholic Church signed by Cardinal Bertone to a quack faith healer and spiritist necromancer?
I agree with Servus, IT MUST BE A HOAX.
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Since Kiran and his appointment has been around for some time, it seems strange that nothing has been heard of Bertone, the appointment etc. from the Vatican, the MSM.
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David, Strange but true.
Did you see all the other Papal ‘appointments’ made to Kiran’s employees , girlfriend and to quack ‘Dr Burzynski’
http://lakishajj.wordpress.com/
Very, very strange
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Say good brother lakish, is that your site? Is that where you get your info from? Say, whos the new age chick a dee? I cant help but notice the spiritual healer has a graven image behind him. Ill bet hes a good catholic. Can see why the pope wouldnt give him a medal of honor.
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St Bosco,
You seem to like the sweeties..
Here’s a real looker extoling the ‘virtues’ of quack faith healer john of god of Brazil on Toronto News Channel…
AND…claiming……. “Absolutely. A lot of Catholics will say, “I don’t agree with that.” But just two weeks ago, John of God got … acclamation from the Pope.
[From Pope Benedecit?]
“Yeah! And right under the wire there before he retires.
Yeah! Well he proclaimed that this was the healing work of God. This really helps. Now he’s been deemed to be working through Catholicism.”
http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=191563
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Aye, whats that hunny bunny doin with that old Bozo?
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Read on, bro
it’ll knock you socks off
Gail Thackray…Gail Harris…
for mature minds only
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Its a pity these people go over to the wicked side. Well, the unsaved will do anything. My grampa used to say…” anything to keep from working”
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