It is a common enough trait of atheists to talk about the ‘God of the gaps’. As my God fills only the gap left by my need to address my sin and repent, I didn’t give any time to the concept, but I do wonder how far some of the things which divide Christians are the result of our trying to fill in the ‘gaps’?
The idea of the Trinity is to be found in Scripture and the traditions of the early church, but not stated thus, and not elaborated in the form Trinitarians have long accepted, as a series of posts here has helped to describe.
Binitarians will deny the validity of those ancient insights, but most of us do not; however, it is hard to argue that the ideas expressed by Gregory Nazianzus are there, in that form in Scripture. Men have needed, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to dwell on many of the things we have in Scripture in order the better to understand it. That leaves, as it left the Arians, those who cannot take the majority view to maintain their position or reconsider it; men being what they are there are few examples of the latter.
If such dogmatic concepts are difficult to grasp, they do lead us into territory where one might say that it seems like you need a PhD in theology to be saved – which surely cannot be at all right, as what one needs is the faith of a child and a heart touched by grace. I don’t suppose the thief on the Cross to whom Christ offered a place in paradise that day, had the foggiest grasp of the Trinity. Indeed, he hadn’t been baptised, or made a good confession – and so, by the standards that came to obtain in the church, there’s no way he could have been saved – except of course He was.
Such passages cause pastoral concern. Matthew 20:1-16 is, by our standards, blatantly unjust. No one imagines that it is fair to pay a fellow who has worked an hour or two the same as one who has put in a full day; yet we are told that the kingdom of Heaven is like the householder who did just that. The parable of the unjust steward in Luke has caused many pastors sleepless nights. As for the parable of the Prodigal Son, well, if ever there were a pastoral nightmare, there it is.
Most of us, if we are honest, tend to react like the older brother – that is crossly and with uncomprehending irritation at the unfairness of it all. The little tyke insists on his share of the money, gets it, wastes it on wine, women and song (though perhaps he thought it wasn’t wasting it whilst the win and women were in plentiful supply), gets into a mess, goes back intending to wash the dishes, so to say, and dad welcome shim with open arms, kills the fatted calf and generally acts like something special has happened. You can see why the Older brother gets miffed.
You can also see why priests needed to emphasise that despite being offered eternal salvation in return for repentance, folk needed to mind their ps and qs and not assume they were saved. I really can’t help thinking that was where Purgatory came in – don’t think it’s over in this life. It is interesting that the Orthodox didn’t develop the idea, but their theology seems less jurisprudence based than that of Rome. The Biblical verses in favour are vanishingly small and by no means pellucid. The RCC may be right, but it is the only Church which has taken this view – which is, again, interesting.
Good brother jeff, my old friend, i have seen the light. I have decided to join the one true restored Church of jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. May peace be with all of you my good brothers.
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Bosco – how many girlfriends do you have right now? Because I always thought that the Church of the Latter Day Saints was for those fortunate enough to have several, and they couldn’t decide which one to marry – so they joined the Mormons and then they could marry all of them!
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Fortunate? All those mothers in law! 🙂
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Geoffrey — I take it that your mother-in-law is long since deceased, otherwise you wouldn’t be so flippant with such remarks. 🙂
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Very long since. A fine woman, as she would tell you herself 🙂
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Indeed so. She is reading every word from on high and making a list. 🙂
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Aye, she was one of a kind; I trust 🙂
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But of course she was. 🙂
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Aye, happen 🙂
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Good brother Jock, seeing as how im new to god true restored endtime church, i havent had time to find anymore girls. Ill be looking to fulfill my destiny pretty soon. I saw a girls at Lowes yesterday that i like. But anyway, im learning about gods true church rite now. All the other religions have fallen short, way short. Look at the CC and the Evangels. Nothing but greed and vice. We Latter Day Saints have been comminssioned by god to save the world. May the peace of Joseph Smith be with you good brothers.
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Is this like your ‘conversion’ to the RCC, Bosco?
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Well good brother iJeff, i left the CCbecause of all the hypocrisy that is inhewrant in a false religion of graven images and gay priests and lesbian nuns. I wanted a true religion with people that do the will of god. Not some cult take keeps repeating over and over again that its gods church, while it runs male escort service out of its headquarters. The Mormons keep the commandments of god. It says so in the book of mormon.
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Well, if you’re going to go for made up hokum, I guess good Missoorah stuff is the moonshine of choice.
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Made up hokum? How dare you talk about gods true restored church like that.Youre a hater. You need to learn what the Latter Day Saints teach, then youll know we are the one true holy church of god.
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I know what it teaches, Bosco – made-up hokum. Got your magic pants yet?
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Well good brother Jeff, if you knew so much about my beloved religion, you would know that its not magic pants. its magic underwear. And yes, i have sent away for some. I had to have the underpants altered a bit, to accommodate my unusual physique.
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In English English, pants are underwear Bosco. I’d go back and ask Jesus next time you are are on the bus.
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Bosc why don’t we both go the whole hog and become Free masons as its their magic in the under wear besides they are quite open about their secrecy which will be a refreshing change.
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Not to mention transparent about their secrecy 🙂
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Of course it is of little surprise to a Catholic that we hold many positions that are singularly ours as opposed to other denominations as we embrace the Prime Ministry of the Church as our visible head: the Pope and all the power and grace which that post confers upon him.
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Indeed – and it is right and proper you shoul celebrate that 🙂
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Indeed so. We’re number one, we’re number one. Yay! Sorry, just rooting for Notre Dame. 🙂
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Well, I’m all in favour of pride in one’s church 🙂
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Me too. Go team. 🙂
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Indeed 🙂
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I knew there was something wrong with you, SF. All the cool kids root for Purdue and anybody (sometimes even Buckeyes and Wolverines) who are playing Notre Dame. 🙂
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NEO (Nebraska Energy Observer) …. well, you know what they say about the Nebraska University football team …
‘Nebraska, where the N on the helmet stands for knowledge.’
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Yep, and I’m a transplanted Boilermaker, making it work for these farmers.
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Good brother Servus, the CCs impostor Pope is just that. We Latter Day Saints have all twelve apostles, all handed down from the originals. Try to top that? Plus, we have the other gospel of Jesus that no one else has, because god gave it to Joseph Smith himself. It even says so in the Book of Mormon.
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Indeed Bosco – and how odd that those plates just vanished?
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I guess that means your a Brigham Young fan now, huh?
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Praise be to bringham Young. We even have a prophet, this guy called Hinkley or something. Try to top that.
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No one could top such a made up pile on nonsense. Paul said anyone who preached another Gospel should be rejected. The Book of Mormon is made up by Joe Smith, who had a vivid imagination. We have many manuscripts from early in the history of Christianity – there is no evidence the the Jews were in northern America.
Nice try Bosco, but not even you are daft enough to believe that pile of hokum – are you?
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Geoffrey – perhaps he’s just been to a Catholic mass where he inhaled an awful lot of incense. I really don’t know what they put into that stuff, but it makes you feel real good and you’ll believe anything after that.
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Perhaps, like Mr Clinton, he’ll say he didn’t inhale? 🙂
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Just a thought on the parable of the prodigal:
Jesus often taught as an oriental story teller and there was often a sting in the tail of the tale.
Towards the end of the Parable of the Prodigal probably all Jesus audience would have thought as the older son. They would also have been fully conversant with the stories of all the sons of the OT. There are few if any others in the OT who have no misdeeds recorded of them apart from Joseph.
Now Jesus speaks of this returning rogue and what do we find. He returns home to the same gifts a ring and a robe as that placed on the fine son Joseph by Pharaoh on his release from prison.
What a mind bending shock to Jesus audience.
Ye s Geoffrey ‘Wonderful Grace’.
I have read that Joseph’s ring was a signet ring of authority and office it represented the king, the robe a priestly robe of office as one who communicated directly with God in the interpretation of Pharaoh’s dream.
Was Jesus saying – as I believe he was – my priest carrying my authority to bring my word and the message of reconciliation to the world are humble repentant sinners.
Whether this was an inner message in the parable or not it remains that we are a ‘kingdom of kings and priest to God’
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Spare a thought for the fatted calf.
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An early advocate of vegetarianism 🙂
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Probably because you can’t eat a gold one.
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I sure we can all read between the lines and hear what Bosco is saying:
I once read a statement in Mormon literature quoting a Catholic source as saying that the only choice (of true church that is) was between Catholicism or Mormonism. The reasoning is clear Catholicism claims to be one true church constituted by Christ. Mormonism claims that the church fell away throughout the earth and the true church was reconstituted through Joseph Smith and a new apostolate.
Bosco I’m sure your comment indicates that both are equally a “pile of nonsense”. A point which I am sure is not lost on our regular readers but may be missed casual visitors who have not come to know my beloved Bosco.
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