Back in the comment boxes, Jock, Bosco, myself and Servis Fidelis have been playing what I have called a game of ‘whack-a-mole’. I’ll let those unfamiliar with it look it up, but in this context it means that a lot of familiar arguments come up, get knocked down, then come up again – hours of endless fun for all the family. Well, it would be, if the arguments being deployed had not had such hideous effects across centuries of religious sectarianism.
I’ve no problem with anyone reading the Bible as prohibiting the worship of images, as I know no Christian who does that. The problem comes when those doing the criticism insist that any use of images in worship is equivalent to worshipping an image. One can interpret the Bible as forbidding all use of images, most Christians, including the earliest, have not done that. They have assumed that what was meant was a prohibition of worshipping any God other than the one True God. Both lines of thought are there in the Christian tradition. It is when either side insists that they, and they alone, are right, and not only that, but that their opponents are in some way not true Christians, that the trouble comes.
Now, as a Baptist, I’m one for a plain style of worship. Our chapel is a plain stone building with sets of pews on the inside, and the one decoration on the wall being a cross to remind us of the price paid for our salvation by the King of Glory. That’s it. I’m not one for statues, or even icons, and I don’t want prayer cards or any fripperies with pictures of saints or anyone else on them. I don’t find it helpful to me, and the only time we use pictures is with the children at kids’ club and Sunday School, and they are in books or, nowadays on Powerpoint.
I have, probably bread into the bone, a deep distrust and indeed dislike of statues, altars and incense – indeed, just about any fancy stuff. But I know enough history and I’ve seen enough other cultures to know that this fancy of mine is culturally-conditioned. Some folk are a wee bit more excitable and like to let rip – and whilst I’d stay away from such places, I’d not be inclined to judge by appearances and think that a lady kneeling in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary thought that Mary was in the statue, or that she though Mary was the equal of Jesus. I knew enough Catholics when I was young, to know that there were some Catholics who did seem to give what I thought was an excessive devotion to Mary, but I also know what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary, and so know that it does not place her in the same place as Jesus. To those who cite individual behaviour, well what’s to say other than that you should never judge what a church teaches by its worst exemplars.
Do I think there is a danger that some folk invest too much in images, yes. But then I think there’s a danger that some folk come close to making an idol of the Bible.
Our job, if we profess to follow Jesus, is to try, however hard it may be, to understand our fellow Christians. It may be we come to the conclusion that they are not Christians at all – but as I hope to show in a later post – that one needs approaching with caution.
I never fully understood what a small minority the Catholics were in SC until I decided to start a prison ministry for the younger offenders in a local prison some 15 years ago. Without exception, the first question in any class that I began (there were new people added every week) would be, ‘What is the difference between Catholics and Christians’? It just shows how the unquenchable desire to misrepresent another faith is passed on to the children and to society in general. It’s hard to recover from questions that accuse you for some violation or other within the question itself: a variation on the old ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ question.
My friend Steve, when he first became Catholic, received an email from his uncle that ended with: ‘No matter what you say, I will not listen, as Catholics are of the Devil’. That was evidence that he had strayed even beyond the Whack A Mole stage to the more sinister: treat them as lepers stage. I don’t think Steve has heard a word from him since.
These attitudes may linger a bit longer in the world but my gut feeling is that as the secular society continues to try to dismantle Christianity and the nuclear family (the building blocks of any society) and try to replace them with the nanny state of a ‘benevolent’ government, we might find that we will need to put aside such foolishness if we are to have any chance of retaining some semblance of normalcy and preserve our religious freedom in a significant way and hand down our values within our families. Much larger issues are on the horizon than the ones that Whack A Mole keeps presenting for our never ending amusement or bragging rights for making the better argument. Is anybody keeping score and if we Whack enough Moles do we get a free game or something? 🙂
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No, the best you get is Groundhog Day, I fear. Yes, alas, very familiar with such attitudes from my youth. When an aunt of my mother’s married a catholic they had to emigrate to England. All mad.
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That is an option, I suppose. 🙂
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People who treat someone like a leper because the joined the catholic church are themselfs as bad as anyone. To shun your own family member for that shows what a lack they have of any godliness. Unsaved will do anything, but thats disgraceful, even for the unsaved.
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Bosco, we do have some common ground here, my friend. I shall mark it on my calendar with with great happiness. 🙂
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Yes, let it be noted and passed down in the annal of Jessica’s blog. 🙂
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Indeed, I feel another post from Jess in commemoration of this event. 🙂
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Let us hope she picks it up 🙂
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It is deserving of some bit of celebration I think. 🙂
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I agree, Bosco. But I saw a lot of it when I was a lad sixty odd years ago.
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I feel the need to apologize for my protestant brothers who act like that. I am sorry.
My girlfriend was rasied catholic and the guy im hanging out with IS catholic and his whole family and his brother is one of my closest friends, but he abandoned the CC at an early age.
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That’s grand Bosco – good man.
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I, and I’d expect others, enjoyed reading along with the game. My background is similar (although somewhat less severe) to yours, and I often find Catholicism’s visual presentation garish, and overblown. I understand, I think, why it is that way, and yes there could be a danger if one became to enamored of the visual presentation as opposed to the underlying religion.
But there is danger in the other extreme as well. As we all know, this argument about visual images does go back to Moses, and perhaps Abraham as well. And we see the worst of “Protestant” intolerance in Islamist fundamentalism and its destruction of cultural history in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
So, this is one area where I think wisdom lies in a middle course, skirting Charybdis, while still avoiding Scylla as it were. Not easy, but what worthwhile ever was?
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Of course the examples always used are of the most lavish churches and most ornately fitted. It is convenient to the argument. The spectrum of the individual parishes ranges from stark to lavish and everything in between. The simplicity of the chapels in small monasteries or in missionary churches would make Geoffrey’s simple church look lavish. I think it fitting that we offer to God the best of what we are capable of: sometimes it is no more than the widow’s mite and at other times the richness of earthly kings. After all, we give to the Glory of God that which we are able, whether rich or poor, powerful or powerless. At least the purpose remains the same: the Greater Glory of God.
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Sure, we all cherry pick, I do it, you do it, even Bosco does it. I may find it garish but I’m looking through my eyes, to another many of ours are far too stark. I’m not making a judgement here, to me neither is right nor wrong, just different.
Some things are based in theology like the empty cross v. the Crucifix but even that doesn’t go to the heart of the religion because both are valid.
It’s more a matter of taste and upbringing than anything else, and sometimes even mood.
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I understood your point, NEO and I must admit that there is an attraction to both and everything between. It may indeed be a product of the mood I may be in on a certain day. Sometimes the pomp and ceremony brings out the idea of Christ the King, while others remind one of Christ the Prophet or Christ the High Priest. There are many symbolic ways to capture a differing image of our Lord, Who defied conventional wisdom. He is to be worshipped in all aspects of His Being. At least that is the way I see it.
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I figured you did but, I didn’t make it all that clear, either. Indeed so, and while my church is not so much for smells and bells, we do stately liturgy and music pretty well ourselves. A lot of it is mood, time of year (both secular and church) and who know what all, probably varies by person anyway.
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Yes, it is a juggling act by churches to decide what better fits a season or brings one into a state of awe and might literally cause someone to fall on their knees in prayer. The essential thing is that we have been trying for 2000 years to strike a balance and move as many hearts as possible to a feeling of being in a sanctified and hallowed place where God is foremost in our thoughts. Some remind us of the splendors of Heaven and others the fact that Christ had no place to lay His head.
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It is, and it it is one of the reasons that the liturgy is so important, it tends to distill down the experience of the ages for us.
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Indeed so, and unfortunately we sometimes do not have the respect for all of the thought and prayer that went into the development of Liturgy.
For instance, in my own Church, I prefer the ornate and the smells and bells. Why? Because I think seeing Christ as Priest, Prophet and King is brought about in one celebration: the liturgy of the Word has Christ acting among us as prophet, the Priest (acting in the role of Christ while presiding over the liturgy) brings to fore the fact that Christ is High Priest Who is the active participant in the Liturgy and finally the Ornate setting which brings to mind the images from Revelation where Christ reigns supreme as having come into His Kingdom where He is seen clearly as the King of kings. Something for everybody and for every mood. But, alas, we are not catechized in such ways anymore and lose the purposes and the respect for those who designed these expressions for our benefit.
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Indeed, and while we agree with Christ the High Priest we disagree with the human priesthood-admitting no intermediaries between us and Christ (note my wording, nothing about intercessors, like Mary) there. And that may be why the Bells and Smells went away, too much like commanding God. But I’d have to study a lot to give an answer without a lot of qualifications.
But you are correct about the state of catechis, although I suspect we are echoing complaints that go back to Caiaphas, if not Aaron.
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Yes, and again it is those deep misunderstandings about the priesthood and His role. The priest is only representing the invisible action of Christ not an intermediary that would be a natural conclusion some could easily make because, after all, they are visible. As a re-presentation they are only a visible manifestation of the actions of the invisible God. Symbolism at its finest but easily misconstrued. Not a problem while we were all one but a different viewpoint that is understandable since the Reformation.
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Yes, it’s understandable, and in truth, I find it pretty much unimportant. It’s more of a slightly different outlook on the whole thing than a real difference in belief, not as important as Yankees or Red Sox, cause we’re all (or had better be) on the same team.
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I’m not sure about your metaphor: at least they are both playing baseball. But to you wider point, we surely need to at least see all of us a baseball players that love the same thing and have dedicated our life to the same. In that sense we surely are on the same team – though some will never want to admit it – too much bad blood between the Red Sox and the Yankees.
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That was my point-we are playing baseball, not soccer or some other pursuit, like those guys over in Mecca.
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And a good point it is. We best keep the eye on the ball and remember what we are all about.
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Always a good plan 🙂
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indeed so, friend. 🙂
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🙂
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🙂
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I’d guess so. Yes, there are, of course, real differences, and we should manfully admit it. But what I don’t like is this business of saying a church is not Christian when for a coupe of thousand years its members have been dying for Christ.
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Agreed, and of course we have many areas here where we have agreed to disagree, we don’t gloss over it but we do try to maintain a bit of perspective, and a church whose members have been dying for Christ for a couple of thousand years, is not reasonable. If you find yourself doing that, you’re worshiping something other that Christ, and Him crucified.
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That’s how it feels to me 🙂
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Nice to be on the same page 🙂
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Agreed 🙂
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Nice when it happens 🙂
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That’s a good point.
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A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.
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I agree, my friend. Hard though it is, not making an idol of one’s own tastes is a good place to start. I confess I can’t help it, but I have an instinctive aversion to statues and fine robes – can’t bear ’em. Still, that’s my problem, and I deal with it as best I can.
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Yep statues have little place in mine although the simple Roman magistrates robe I’m OK with. But that’s it exactly, it’s not all about me, it’s about God, and whatever works for the mission.
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For Catholics there is the plainness of “Chapel folk” structures coupled with the cold empty converted to Evangelisch, St. Lorenz Kirche in Nurenburg in stark contrast with, what I call Barocco, of Vierzehnheiligen outside of Bamberg. There is a balance to be found in the St. Stefan’s Dom in Wein, Santa Maria Aracoeli in Roma and architectural elegance St. George’s Chapel at Windsor.
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Good brother Jeff points out that there are those who dont do what the CC teaches. And we shouldnt judge the CC for them. I get hit with the standard phrase ” Look at what the Cc teaches, then youll know we are gods true church”. Be serious for a min. Does anyone on earth know everything the CC teaches? If the did, do they remember everything, and follow it to the letter? Im going to quess the answer is no. So why expect me to look at what the CC teaches. Even the priests of the CC dont follow teaching to the letter, but they want you to think they do. If you followed church teaching, you would need a few things .
Gregory “published a bull establishing the Inquisition. . . all opposed to any papal pronouncement, were to be handed over to the civil authorities for burning. (no separation of church and state in those days!) If they repented, they were to be imprisoned for life. No pope ever took up to torch of terror with more enthusiasm. . .”
If church teaching were followed one would need alot of wood and stakes on hand, to use on people like me. Even if vatican II erased all the pronouncements of this sort, they should still be in effect, because the CC never changes. To change papal bulls is against church teaching.
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I’m sorry but the game of Whack A Mole is over for now, you should have made this reply yesterday. Today we are just reliving yesterday within the twilight zone of Groundhog Day.
Besides, I’m not going to have you spoil the moment of our agreement when I am in such a good mood. Its time to celebrate good brother Bosco. Pop the cork and unwind a bit. 🙂
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Maybe youre rite good brother.
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That’s the spirit. Peace brother. 🙂
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This will be marked in a post for tomorrow 🙂 xx
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It is definitely a first, Jess. I expect nothing but your best treatment of this. I’m sure you’ll do a bang-up job as you always do. 🙂 xx
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Well, it couldn’t pass without note 🙂 xx
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Indeed not. That would be like forgetting to report on V-Day. 🙂
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I did check it was not April 1 st 🙂 xx
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Good to double-check for accuracy though. 🙂 xx
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Yes, quite so 🙂 xx
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Bosco – I wouldn’t worry about it – seems they caught the Papal Bull
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10116258/Police-fire-fighters-and-council-officers-in-90-minute-chase-to-catch-runaway-bull.html
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Lets look at what the Church teaches;
Until the end of the 19th-century there was on display in the Inquisitors’ headquarters or the “Holy Office” as it is now called a large black book or Libro Negro, also known as the “book of the dead”. This manuscript in folio form was the charge of the grand Inquisitor. Here is a sample of its instruction
“Either the accused confesses and he is proved guilty by his own confession, or he does not confess, and is equally guilty on the evidence of witnesses. If a person confesses the whole of what he is accused of, he is unquestionably guilty of the whole; but if he confesses only a part, he ought still to be regarded as guilty of the whole, since what he has confessed proves him to be capable of guilt as to the other points of the accusation. . .
Bodily torture has ever been found the most salutary and efficient means of leading to spiritual repentance. Therefore, the choice of the most to befitting mode of torture is left to the judge of the Inquisition, who determines according to the age, the sex, and the constitution of the party. . . If, notwithstanding all the means employed, the unfortunate wretch still denies his guilt, he is to be considered as a victim of the devil: and, as such, deserves no compassion from the servants of God, nor the pity and indulgence of Holy Mother Church: he is as son of perdition. Let him perish among the damned.”
Ouch!
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