I was not alone in finding Jessica’s post today very moving. That moment of revelation is precious. It was interesting that she should have had it while praying her Rosary. My old friend who helped soften my ancestral hostility to Catholicism was a great one for his Rosary. It was one of those things always presented to me as a sign of the devilishness of Catholicism, and I found it hard to connect that image with my old friend. When I saw him just before the end, praying the Rosary was about all there was left for him. He could no longer read his Bible, and he said he found listening to it on headphones got in the way of talking with God. He would sit there, in his chair in the hospice, and finger his beads. I visited him a few times toward the end, and on each of them he was praying his beads when I arrived. I knew him well enough to stop a moment and let him finish.
He once explained to me that he found in the Rosary a quiet place where his mind could dwell on the important parts of Christ’s life. I once asked him about the ‘Mary part’ of it all. I couldn’t, and can’t, get alongside all the ‘Queen of Heaven’ thing, but when he explained it, I understood it as well as I ever shall.
It was, he explained, only natural to suppose that Jesus loved His mother and showed her honour, and that was the way his Church explained those parts of the Rosary which made me uneasy. He explained that he found the Rosary brought to his mind the most important parts of the Gospels, and that when he dwelt there, it was as though the world was somewhere else. I think that the closer he got to the end, the closer he got to that state where his consciousness was not here.
Anything which brings that sort of comfort to an ailing man – and the content was written on his face – cannot, whatever my feelings, be bad. So I put it down, as I do other phenomena, to the fact that this is a part of Christianity so removed form my own cultural comfort zones that it makes me uncomfortable.
Could that ever be so with the phenomena Struans and I have been discussing this week? Β Has he stumbled across a part of my understanding where the narrow horizons of my own formation blind me to the light he sees? Β I should at least bear that in mind, though as with the Rosary and my old friend, I doubt I’ll ever see it. There should be, and is, a gratitude toward those who take the trouble to engage and explain – and it is a tribute to young Jessica that she’s founded a place where that can be done. We’d not be us if we didn’t now and then strain the boundaries of tolerance – but I am glad our Chatelaine does not feel we’ve abused the hospitality she extended with such generosity. Good to see her back/
As so often, Geoffrey, i find myself in much the same boat as you. The Rosary is absent from my tradition, why I’m not sure as Old Luther, practiced Marian devotion all his life but, it is.
I can’t say I was raised to rail against it, I doubt it had come up in generations, so while my mind wasn’t exactly open, it hadn’t been barred strongly either. So when our Chatelaine began speaking of it, as well as my other Catholic friends, I was interested, and I have come to the conclusion that while I will likely never go there, I do understand, somewhat anyway, and respect their belief.
I’m convinced that it does at worst, no harm, and think I see signs that it works for those who believe in it. And so, I’ve decided that it is merely another approach to the same God, and valid, just not one I’m comfortable with for myself. Hopefully that made some sense.
LikeLike
Aye, that’s pretty much it – well-expressed.
LikeLike
I’m glad, I was was beginning to think I was looking for the corner in a round barn.
LikeLike
No, I quite understand the feeling – a good expression, too. π
LikeLike
One that I’m fond of, although usually used in a different context π
LikeLike
I think I might be able to guess the usual context π
LikeLike
I thought you could π
The north country tends to be the north country irrespective of the continent. π
LikeLike
Very true, my friend π
LikeLike
π
LikeLike
The rosary is such a gift to Christianity – and yes I’ve known Protestants that found that praying the rosary was of great benefit. The reason? It is the best introduction I know to mental prayer which leads to contemplative prayer and in a way that is devoid of danger. That is because it is primarily a meditation upon scenes in the Bible. Though Jess has a problem with the Sorrowful Mysteries (and all the tenderhearted would because of the intense dwelling upon the last hours of Christ’s life on earth), I find it my favorite. In fact I feel that the Joyful and the Glorious Mysteries all revolve around the centerpiece of the Sorrowful Mysteries as the Sacraments of the Church revolve around the Eucharist.
If anyone would like to begin to explore the depth of prayer which is known mostly by the mystics and called by the name contemplation then I would recommend highly the Rosary for an introduction to a higher order of prayer than most people are ever accustomed to in this life. As an old Protestant: I found it as a gem that I was not even expecting – the Eucharist I knew about but the value of the rosary I had no idea about. I’ve known no one who has started praying the rosary on a daily basis that did not find the value contained in the time that one spends in deep meditation.
LikeLike
That’s quite a testimony, my friend.
LikeLike
Well, when our prayers tend to be primality prayers of petition and praise it is nice to enter into that deeper relationship that the saints all shared – or at the very least make an attempt to do so.
LikeLike
Yes, I begin to see that. What impressed me was the comfort it gave to my old friend – it made him very happy.
LikeLike
Indeed, I am sure it did. I have heard many stories and have watched so many of the old who are dying take the same solace found in the meditations of the rosary. How comforting it is when we are sick or dying to meditate for same amount of time on the sufferings of our dear Lord. The sufferings of this world seem to dissolve before their eyes in such prayerful meditations.
LikeLike
It was a most moving testimony. At the end it was all he could do – but it seemed like it was all he needed to do.
LikeLike
I have a friend whose brother recently died of liver disease who was in that same state. It was about all that was left for him but it was all he needed as well.
LikeLike
There is something profoundly moving about such witnesses. It makes me wonder what will comfort me then.
LikeLike
As I say, more protestants than you might guess pray the rosary (probably quite privately). It is so simple that children can learn it and as the verbal prayers start to fade into the background all that is left is you within the scene that is held before you in your imagination, emotions and spirit. You become a witness and you emerge someone who has found something new within yourself about these mysteries. Sometimes they are quite ordinary and sometimes they are quite extraordinary. It is not, as some might imagine, vain repetitious prayer, but always new if one lets oneself drift into those deep recesses of our heart where Christ dwells. It is in those prayers that I have found the most joy, sorrow and comfort – as you become aware that you are in the presence of God. It takes a while to get there but it is well worth the effort.
LikeLike
That certainly was how it seemed when I watched my friend. He had prayed it all his life – it meant a great deal to him. He was one if the best men I ever knew.
LikeLike
He certainly sounds like a very spiritual person. It is always a privilege to meet these persons and an honor to have them as friends. I had 3 mentors that I feel the same about and a lady who I do not know as well but who is quite impressive. She was a nun in France and released when she was young because they could not afford to take care of her and they were afraid that she would die from her illnesses. So she kept her vows, became a consecrated virgin and today lives the life of a hermit in contemplative prayer. She is quiet, reserved and you would probably never notice her – but if you ever have the chance to speak to her on religious matters or prayer she will fill you a spirit that will warm your heart. It is nice that you had a friend of this caliber to remember – he obviously made a huge impression on you.
LikeLike
He did, may The Lord keep him safe. I met him in my first teaching post. He was the one who began the process of changing my prejudices about Catholics. We lost touch in the 1980s, but came back into contact, oddly enough, on the Telegraph blog π
Yes, such folk are special, and it is an honour to have known him.
LikeLike
May he rest in peace, indeed, my friend. These are the real treasures we receive in life. π
LikeLike
They are indeed – gifts which show us what we can be π
LikeLike
Amen. π
LikeLike
Reminds me of the priest from Kansas that was captured in Korea who just got the Medal of Honor, and is additionally proposed for sainthood (and yes I can’t think of his name) the reports say that nearly all in that camp were doing the rosary with him, and it was the one thing he still had with him as he died.
LikeLike
Interesting. My old friend was very far gone towards the end, but when he prayed his Rosary, he seemed himself again.
LikeLike
I seem to remember that was just about all he had left, as you can imagine it was a pretty horrific story.
LikeLike
I can imagine. When I first went into teaching, one of my senior colleagues was a man who’d been in a Japanese PoW camp.
LikeLike
I knew a couple that had been in German ones, they said compared to the oriental ones, it was the Hilton.
Here’s a bit on Fr. Kapaun http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301641.htm
I thought I had posted it, there I go, thinking again.
LikeLike
Thank you for this π
LikeLike
No problem, I have no idea why I never posted it, it was in my drafts. π
LikeLike
Well, I am glad you did. π
LikeLike
Yep, at least it got that far. He was a pretty incredible man. π
LikeLike
Certainly was. An edifying account.
LikeLike
I thought I had the citation for the Medal, I’ll have a look, if so they put it in dry armyese which tends to be even more impressive.
LikeLike
I thought I did, here’s the one with the medal citation
http://nebraskaenergyobserver.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/attention-to-orders-2/
LikeLike
Thank you, my friend π
LikeLike
No problem at all π
LikeLike
Neo, yes that was Capt. Emil Kapaun the Catholic chaplain. He may someday be made a saint – we shall see.
LikeLike
Higher order prayer. Gosh
LikeLike
I wouldn’t expect you to understand it Bosco but some of the others here might. Perhaps the closest thing I can describe to you which you have yourself claimed is that it is prayer that is hard to write about because it effects one in ways that are hard to explain to those who have not experienced it. Sound familiar to your conversion story perhaps? The only difference is that the person who prays in this way makes certain that he tries to understand the prayer in a way that affirms rather than contradicts the defined teachings of the faith. I hope that helps you understand it a bit better from your own experience.
LikeLike
Bosco – one could reach a ‘deeper understanding’ of this if one were prepared to follow the advice of the serpent and eat the fruit of the forbidden tree.
LikeLike
I’m not sure here – does this mean you and Bosco just came to the revelation that God is a Trinity? If so, great, if not, then how can the ‘deeper understanding’ be the work of the Serpent?
LikeLike
Geoffrey – I was referring to a ‘deeper understanding’ of the rosary.
OK – if it worked for JohnDC and if it works for Servus Fidelis and Jessica, then I don’t intend to be disrespectful of their experiences (and feelings(!)) on this.
I’ve no intention of joining in and I’ve no intention of trying to begin to reach an understanding – I believe that would be a dangerous thing to do, because it would go against God’s will and result in bad consequences for me.
LikeLike
Thanks for the clarification Jock. As so often, I am with you. If it helps others, then I shall say nothing, for it is something beyond my ken. For myself, I find a recitation of some of the shorter Psalms a great comfort.
LikeLike
the person who prays in this way makes certain that he tries to understand the prayer in a way that affirms rather than contradicts the defined teachings of the faith.
Sorry, im not really getting that. What im seeing in my minds eye is a piano playing chicken. The chicken wont play the piano unless a quarter is dropped in the slot. If you say a certain prayer, god hops to it. Like a machine.
When in a coffer a coin rings
Out of purgatory a soul springs
LikeLike
If that’s what’s in your mind Bosco, I’m not surprised you aren’t getting it.
How do you pray?
LikeLike
How do i pray. i talk to him. I thank him for being there for me and keeping me going. basically, i talk to him. No, he doesnt answer back, rite away.
LikeLike
Thank you, Bosco.
LikeLike
Sorry I missed these last discussions between you and Jock. It is funny that you mentioned the reading of the psalms as a source of meditation as that is the forefather of the rosary. In days gone by, it was required by some monks to learn by heart the 150 psalms and they went through them by using knots on a string: 50 of them – done three times (the same as the rosary). It is funny how the development of the rosary condensed many of the meditations in a fashion that the uneducated and even children could learn. Mental prayer thus learned opens the doors to the Divine Office or Breviary, Lectio Devina, and the reading of the Psalmody for prayerful reflection and meditation. We have the pious practice of the Stations of the Cross and many Spiritual Exercises like those of St. Ignatius of Loyola to give any aspirant a variety of ways to enter more deeply into the mysteries of Christ. Just so you don’t think that the rosary, which can be said as a devotion especially when recited in a public setting can also serve as the training ground for the Christian in these deeper mental prayers. Hope that makes some sense though I was late on the conversation.
LikeLike
It does, my friend. I am a great advocate of such practices – they help us in our journey. Too often we skim where we should dive deep – and if the Rosary helps with that, then excellent.
LikeLike
It does help and St. Padre Pio used to refer to it as his weapon against Satan. A pretty apt description of the power of deep prayer.
LikeLike
Indeed, my friend – it is much-needed.
LikeLike
Oh yeah, i recall Pio. wasnt he the guy that burned his palms with acid or something, to make it look like he was crucified? His parishoners really lapped that hoax up.
LikeLike
Bosco, you might do yourself some good to read a few good biographies of the man before you shoot off your mouth about something you know absolutely nothing about.
LikeLike
Bosco read a report in the Daily Telegraph, which didn’t say that happened, but said someone had said it had. Bosco has a unique way with evidence. π
LikeLike
Well I would hate to have him get confused by the facts of the case. He seems so willing to live in his make believe world in Happy Valley Rest Home. π
LikeLike
Please, dont tell me you guys fall for that stimata stuff. Please tell me you have more sense than to believe people miraculously share in the crucifixion. I know you believe lots of hoaky stuff, but please tell me theres a limit.
LikeLike
Well Bosco you keep talking and jumping to conclusions about something you don’t know anything about. I have a revelation for you. That appendage that sits upon your shoulders can be used for something more than wearing baseball caps. You should try to use it to read and think. I think you will find it life changing.
LikeLike
Bosco – baseball caps are out. Try wearing a fish hat, use plenty of carbolic acid and you too can be a religious hero.
LikeLike
Good brother Servus, Youre telling me i need to read and learn. Im not sure what im supposed to be reading. If it relates to the subject, stigmata, are you suggesting that you believe its real , or maybe its not what i think it is, or what? Yes, i need to read and learn, i do that most days. But its either chess or math or one of the chemistry areas. I already know stigmata arent real or of god. i dont need to learn that.
LikeLike
How would you know that Bosco, since in the case of Padre Pio there are 50 years of modern medical records and intense scrutiny of the matter? It was an unexplained mystery. That aside, the Church doesn’t require anyone to believe that. There are much more mysterious matters associated to him than a mere stigmata which a number of saints have had over the centuries. How about a little girl born without a bladder who after being taken to see Padre Pio and his praying for her was taken home to have the doctors, to their great amazement find a bladder growing. She is still alive today. Or those how visited the Saint to confess their sins and did not speak a language he knew or understood and yet got direction from him in their own language . . . or those who after confessing their sins were told by the Saint that they had missed a sin and then went so far to remind them of sins that were, at times, things that had happened many decades earlier. Reputable people and even non-believers who were skeptical went away believers. But to you, I am sure that he was just a costumed holy man who did magic tricks. He couldn’t do anything as miraculous as having a French teacher leave class before the final exam. Now that was miracle from God because you are not a Catholic and everybody knows that nobody could possibly be given extraordinary graces if they were Catholics – after all they are too busy counting all the gold that they have been swindling out of the poor people. Though Padre Pio got rooked because he died with nothing of his own.
LikeLike
Sorry Servus – from your account here, I conclude that Padre Pio was just a costumed holy man who did magic tricks. (Getting the French teacher to leave class before the final exam, though – now that really was a miracle – if he really had done something like that, I might start to believe).
Where it all breaks down – I check up Scriptures, see what sign miracles were supposed to be for, and the situations where Padre Pio performed his simply don’t fit in.
I don’t believe in a God who works through magic tricks and miracles as something reasonably routine and normal; the sign miracles had one and only one function; to demonstrate that Jesus was who he claimed to be. PPs miracles do not fit into this context.
Your take on Padre Pio – well, it boils down to a God who doesn’t like his own natural order that he created and always has to intervene to sort things out.
On the wider point – I’m always much more impressed by people who witness for Christ while living normal lives in normal society. I’m not impressed by monastic types who think they’re doing God a great honour by refusing to live in a normal relationship with a normal wife, have a normal family life and who remove themselves from normal society. I’m not impressed by this.
LikeLike
Huh. Really interesting that you have decided why God grants miracles. I guess Peter’s handkerchief and shadow were to demonstrate that Christ was who he claimed to be just as all the miracles of the OT did. Mighty interesting take, if I do say so myself. Sounds like God gave you some information the rest of didn’t get yet.
I find it funny that because the Protestant churches claim so few miracles that they usually take the natural world approach yet when they deal with atheists they rail agains the natural world and claim the supernatural reality as the basis for everything: and to some even their wellness and richness is a sign that they have lived life aright in the eyes of God.
Since the times of the OT there have been men and women who submitted themselves to celibate lives and dedicated their lives to prayer and service to God and man. Now you would have me believe that they did this out of some kind of spiritual pride to get a grand applause from the world? Not much I can say about such subjective reasoning now is there?
I didn’t think this would impress you Jock – after all there is an inactive God who is only supernaturally involved with mankind when you decided he is. Move along, nothing to see here. π
LikeLike
Servus – unlike you (or at least what you claim in this post), I simply use the object that God gave me, located between my ears, when I read Holy Scripture, in the way that God intended. On this basis, I understand why God grants miracles.
Of course, you employ a Pope to do the thinking for you, thus saving you the bother. You use your brain to understand why what the Pope says is so right and good.
From what I’ve seen at closer quarters (( gave partial description on another thread), it’s precisely this miracles business, people looking for signs and wonders, that leads to major difficulties. I didn’t state the full details of the Holy Roller on the other thread – but the obsession of his wife (Pentecostalist) in the quest for sign miracles bordered (in my opinion) on insanity. In fact, he knew that his wife was a former drug addict (with resulting brain damage) who had come to know and love the Lord before he married her, but he believed in miraculous healing and believed that God would restore the woman’s brain to something approaching normality.
Admittedly I have no direct experience of Catholicism in this matter, but I’ve seen what happens when sign-miracle-mania starts to infect ‘protestant’ circles (your terminology) and it is really ugly – the absolute antithesis of Godly Christian attitudes and living.
When sign-miracle-mania starts, though, I don’t believe for one minute that there is a basic fundamental difference between the Catholic approach (which I haven’t seen) and the devastating Pentecostalist approach that I have seen, which produces disturbing psychological problems in those who get taken in by it and follow it.
So I have two things going here – first, an understanding of what miracles are for, based on reading of Scripture and second, this chimes in with what I have seen – when people are eagerly anticipating sign miracles that fall outside this framework, it can lead to very dangerous and damaging consequences.
By the way – I haven’t been part of those ‘protestant’ churches you mention and haven’t seen them. Are you sure they really exist? Or is this a case of you projecting your own prejudices onto imaginary objects?
LikeLike
I am of the opinion that miracles still occur and that the Simon Magus’s of the world are always there to confuse and obfuscate. That is why the Church takes such pains to give approval to a miracle or a saint (who must have 1 miracle proved before and 1 after death). In some cases it has taken hundreds of years for the Church to sift through all the data and make its pronouncement.
I, like you, take most with a grain of salt. But once approved by the examining authorities it becomes a matter of personal belief because the Church states that there is no obstacle to prevent one from believing it: in other words, no deception was found and that it likely to be as described and witnessed. We use outside sources of scientists and doctors to examine the events that no other church I know would bother with. Everything is documented, must be approved first by the Bishop of the area, and only then is the case submitted to Rome for approval.
The Church does not profit by these things (which I have seen in the holy roller types) unless we claim that the increased devotion to the witnesses and those converted or returned to the faith are a form of payment.
Some miracles are pretty straight forward, such as the liquefaction of St. Januarius’s blood on his feast day. It has occurred before many thousands of peoples over the years and continues to this day.
But it must be some kind of magic act, as are all the others, and the doctors and scientists I’m sure are paid off by Rome with all the gold they are rolling around in. These guys are better than David Copperfield though, because they’re pretty convincing. π
LikeLike
Servus – Scripture is the ‘bouncer at the door’.
I see no examples of posthumous miracles in Scripture. This informs me of my opinion of what you just wrote.
LikeLike
Wow, that is a very different view indeed.
If your neighbors or friends ask you to pray for what is a “scientifically hopeless” case, I suppose that you would not. If someone has a “miraculous” recovery after the members of a church took turns, night and day, praying for the person – you would simply say that it is a coincidence and you would not thank God for His help as you do not think God gets involved. I guess maybe I am not quite getting your brand of Christianity, Jock.
LikeLike
Servus – nope, you don’t get it: you seem to be lacking the ability to use the object between the ears that you find lacking in Bosco.
Scripture tells us to pray for a ‘scientifically hopeless’ case – there are examples of this. Gosh, you don’t even have basic reading and thinking abilities ……
Miraculous recovery following prayer – we have a God who answers prayers; Scripture tells us this.
No, you’re being deliberately misunderstanding. I stated that Scripture was the bouncer at the door; you deliberately misrepresent The Word. Much more of this, then I will start to believe Bosco when he concludes that you are lost.
LikeLike
Jock – Reading what you wrote, I can see why SF wrote as he did. If your meaning is unclear you can blame the other fellow for it, but often starting with oneself isn’t a bad place to begin.
LikeLike
Geoffrey – the word ‘posthumous’ was key in the comment. There are no examples in Scripture of miracles carried out by some saint who is already dead.
Much more importantly – I have seen ‘Charismatic tendency’ at its worst. I’ve given one example that came from the ‘Pentecostal’ wing. I’ve actually seen much worse in the Anglican communion (Holy Trinity church in the centre of Coventry approximately 1990).
I’ve come to believe that Charismatic tendency and the search for modern day sign miracles really is the root of much evil and a substantial cause of psychological problems.
LikeLike
As most of the Apostles were still alive when Scrupture was written, that might not be surprising.
Not knowing anything about the Charismatics, I’m more than preapred to believe what you say, but that wasn’t what Servus was talking about at all.
LikeLike
….. in fact, I would go further. The tolerance of practising gay priests and the support of gay marriage is a bad thing. I’d say a far bigger problem facing the church is tolerance of those who are actively seeking sign miracles and believe that they have them. The most twisted characters I have come across are people who believed in sign miracles and believed that God worked through them to bring about faith healing.
LikeLike
That wouldn’t surprise me – but the point, as I understand it about Padre Pio, is he neither sought out these powers not claimed to have them – he just had them, and in many ways they were an affliction to him.
LikeLike
Indeed we do have a God who answers prayers and a God who has always worked through people – especially those who are especially holy people. I find that people who believe all things miraculous must be of God about as silly as I do those who believe that nothing is a miracle from God.
Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear, Jock. When a prayer is attributed to a Saint or one who is being looked at as a possible Saint, it is because of his particular prayer. Also, when miracles, as were attributed to Padre Pio were realized – they were quick, specific and had to do with health, suffering, of either the body or the soul. He helped these people realize not only a miraculous recovery in some of these areas but sometimes the fact that they were in need of recovery when they thought they were just fine. Padre Pio or any other Saint is not acting outside of prayer: not simply on his own – nor did Peter in the Acts of the Apostles when the sick would be cured by touching his handkerchief or having his shadow fall on them. All miracles (modern or ancient) are a gift from God and sing His praise.
The stigmata? Well we don’t know the purpose, though we know that Christ at times, allows others to suffer what he was made to suffer and sometimes without the physical marks: such a St. Teresa of Avila. To you, all those who have had this manifestation from St. Francis until the modern day are hoax’s perpetrated by the people themselves or the Church. I find that harder to accept after reading biographies of these people than I would to believe in their special status of wearing the wounds of Christ.
LikeLike
Interesting comments from both you and Jock, Geoffrey. We have no need of miracles (once confirmed in the faith) and why the Church does not require us to accept them: but that is no reason to believe that He is still not active in our universe even in supernatural, miraculous measures. It is the difference for me of being skeptical and being a complete cynic.
As an illustration one can look at the 70 being sent off by Jesus and able to perform all sorts of miracles, not from their abilities, but by God’s. Was he not preparing them for the time when He would not walk with them anymore? If you abide by what He says and do what He would have you do, is it surprising that He may use someone as His instrument of Grace? Or was this sending just a one off situation with no ramifications on the future of the Church? Since the history of saints points to the holiness of the people who have been blessed to be His special instruments of grace I see no inconsistencies. Does God have favorites? Jesus seemed to.
As to miracles occurring by invoking the prayers of a deceased saint, it goes against the whole “praying for the dead” or “intercessory prayer” debate which we have already had on this site. So it might seem strange to protestant ears but it seems credible to most Catholic ears – though not necessary for one’s salvation.
I try to walk a thin line that distinguishes that which is implausible and those mysteries of a miraculous nature that have been investigated by science and approved by the Church as “worthy of belief”. So I would hold the miracles of Lourdes, of Fatima, the supernatural quality of the Shroud of Turin and the Image of Guadalupe. I also accept the modern testimonies of miraculous healing from the prayers by men such as Brother Andre, Solanus Casey and Padre Pio – and the efficacious act of asking for their intercessory prayers after death. The answers to these prayers beats all the odds of coincidence and is therefore quite believable. Is God pointing to the Saints as He did to Abraham, or the prophets? I would say that, as Francis said in a previous comment box, no one can out give Christ. He returns 100 fold for those who give up everything for Him to live a life of selfless giving. To me, it is a simple sign that they were successful in their endeavor to live life as one in the imitation of Christ.
LikeLike
One miracle while alive and one after death, to be considered a saint. Uh, hand me my clipboard.Lets see now, uh, check one during life, and uh lets see, oh, and one after death, thats a check. Ok hes a saint now. Wait a min, the committee of costumed holymen has to approve the miracle.
I firmly believe in Satan. I believe Satan can do what the scriptures say he can do.I believe Satan can do what Jesus said he can do.
Satan can appear as an angel of Light. Satan can work phoney miracles.
Jock is 100% right. Scripture is the bouncer at the door. Do the religious care what scripture says? No. As a matter of fact, they believe it more and to the bottom of their hearts when its violently anti scriptural. Why is this? Ill tell you why. Because Satan is the ruler of their heart. You will either love one master and hate the other. Yes, its true. And its obvious. They hate the Invisible god. They hate the God of Abraham. Oh, yes, they do the lip service. Oh, we do all the rituals and make the pose while praying. We even have wonderful looking costume holymen. We even bare our graven images on our shoulders and parade them down the street in long solemn processions.
Pioites have claimed he was at 2 places at once. These are worshipers of men. Pio is now omnipotent. And he participates in the crucifixion. All the religious can think about is men. They worship the creature more than the creator. Why? Because Satan is the King of their hearts. Are they lost? Yes. But god knows where they are.
LikeLike
Bosco – thanks.
Getting back to the homosexuality threads – ‘All the religious can think about is men.’
This is sadly true!
LikeLike
Is it, or is it your own evaluation of the fact that the Biblical texts are about men in this regard? Might there have been good reason for this? We could guess, for instance that homosexuality of women was rare; or we could guess that it was because thought the Jewish Faith is matriarchal the women were not placed in charge of the religious faith but in the purview of the home church and the training of the young. It was the order of their society. I do not think that would make of this topic the idea that the Bible or the religious debates were obsessive about men. Other mitigating factors need to be taken into account before an all encompassing dictate can emerge as a given.
LikeLike
I was simply attempting to loosen things up a little by deliberately misunderstanding Bosco’s sentence ‘All the religious can think about is men’.
Well, sadly, within the C. of E. clergy and the Church of Scotland clergy, there have been serious problems with religious men, where all they can think about is men.
LikeLike
Jock, I understand that and it is sadly the truth in may places. Sorry I misunderstood your reference to Bosco’s statement: I guess I missed that. I do sometime only skim the comments quickly instead of paying the attention to them which I should. My bad. π
LikeLike
We have the very simple ability to look beyond the man to the Author of all grace Who is God Himself. Not a big difficult use of the grey matter God gave us. Do some get carried away: some will seek only for signs but for most it is an expression of God’s love for His people and His generosity. To refer our belief that a man is saintly, it seems only right that we recommend their soul to God and let Heaven respond: He will either not provide the needed miracle or He will. If the Saint is ratified by God, then it is “worthy of belief” that His life is a holy one and is fit to be emulated and held up as one who lived his life in this world in a heroically Christian way. It is a nice gift for God to provide us with people that have lived in our midst, whom we have many details of their life, to single out as having lived life well. It is as though Christ is saying to us concerning these Saints, “Well done, good and faithful servant . . . enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.”
LikeLike
I’d have thought it better for folk to try to understand where other folk are coming from before assuming that about a billion Catholics know nowt – still, there I go again, that trying to understand thing. π
LikeLike
Yes you are too kind to your fellow believers in Christ. I would like to just put on record one mention of miracles as made by the Church in the Catechism:
156 What moves us to believe is not the fact that revealed truths appear as true and intelligible in the light of our natural reason: we believe “because of the authority of God himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived”. So “that the submission of our faith might nevertheless be in accordance with reason, God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit.” Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability “are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all”; they are “motives of credibility” (motiva credibilitatis), which show that the assent of faith is “by no means a blind impulse of the mind”.
And thanks for your ecumenical understanding in this, probably one of the most misunderstood of topics. π
LikeLike
Servus – how come Holy Scripture invariably has an entirely different ring to it from the legalese speak of the catholic catechism?
I know that you’re convinced by it, but it simply doesn’t speak to me. If it did, I would be a Catholic.
LikeLike
Has no ring of legalese to me, Jock. And your interpretation of the Bible draws conclusions that at times are different from I or my Church take from them. So we disagree; who would have guessed it? π
LikeLike
We disagree – but it is worse than that. As I pointed out to you, I find something dangerous about charismatic tendency, wherever you find it – and curiously I can’t trust in the safeguards (everything has to be double checked, etc … etc ….).
Even if it turned out that Padre Pio was a genuinely good miracle worker, this would only make him a bit of an exception – and I’m one hundred percent convinced from what I have seen that Charismatic tendency does far more harm than good.
As far as posthumous miracles which keep people alive are concerned – I’m pretty sure that heaven is a much better place than this. Why would someone already in glory want to intercede with God to have such a miracle performed? Is the petition to God something along the lines of ‘Well, we’ll have him around here in heaven for long enough – let’s make the fellow suffer a little longer down there.’ I simply don’t understand it at any level.
The other point of seeking understanding – I think there are serious limits beyond which Scripture does not let me go – if I were to investigate certain things, I’m sure that I would be punished.
LikeLike
Yes, I can see that from your writing. You do not see God as raising spiritual children that are children of His in the fullest sense of the word. When these children are asked to pray for those who ask for it – would God be angry that they are seeking intercession? Was it not Christ Himself that told us to pray one for another? Are they dead (as in extinct) or are they more alive in the spirit than they ever were and their wills in absolute obedience to the Father they love above all things. If that will lead you down a road to perdition, I find it non-sensical but as it is not an essential of Faith, it is of no matter to your walk with God toward Salvation.
LikeLike
Servus – you continue with this misrepresentation (and you know what I’m talking about). I thought you were better than that.
LikeLike
Jock – I didn’t mean to if that is not a good representation of the statement you wrote above: “Why would someone already in glory want to intercede with God to have such a miracle performed?” I was merely giving you my different reasons for thinking that other reasons might be explained in a very natural way.
LikeLike
Servus – our current life is transient. It is a preparation for the next. We do not know what Heavenly bliss will be like, but we have been promised that it will be much better than our earthly struggles. These are the ‘so much mores’ of Romans 5.
OK … when I pray, I certainly make prayers of intercession, praying that God will bring people to a saving knowledge of Christ and restore them to full health.
At the same time, there is something within me that wonders why someone already experiencing heavenly bliss doesn’t want exactly the same thing for everybody else.
Those who are already in glory see things from a completely different perspective. If someone really understands what heavenly glory is like because they are already there and experiencing it, would they really want to intercede with God so that he prolongs my earthly struggle down here?
There are some things that are unimaginable – and there are roads that I find it best not to go down. I pray for living people whom I know; I pray for living people whom I don’t know. I expect living Christians whom I know to pray for me. I also pray for myself (although I try to limit this – because the Christian mind is not supposed to be self centred – and there is a great danger that prayer, far from concentrating the mind on the mission at home and the mission abroad can, if used wrongly, become self centred and concentrate the mind on itself).
Praying for the dead, or to the dead, asking them to intercede on my behalf – it’s something that I simply don’t understand – and I believe that it’s a road that is to be avoided.
LikeLike
Having come from the protestant camp I understand your reluctance and distrust.
I would make a comment on your Charismatic comments made earlier though. It may come as a surprise to you that I do not find any comfort in the Charismatic Movement and distrust it as much as you do. But we may have a disagreement on how wide we describe the Charismatic Movement. To you, apparently the belief in living saints and the praying to saints that have passed away is part of that movement. To me, the Charismatic Movement is all experiential and emotional and their practices of the laying on of hands and praying for one another (although Biblical) I find too touchy-feely for my liking. The speaking in tongues etc, seem to me to be no longer needed an thereby something that can be too easily misconstrued and lead to spiritual pride and private revelations that are outside the Public Revelation that is embraced by the Church. I hope that makes some sense to you as I don’t conflate the two practices at all and I don’t know many Catholics that embrace the latter Charismatic version of faith. Unfortunately, it seems to have a lot of adherents among the youth today.
LikeLike
I’m reading what you say with interest, and following it up in some of Dr Hahn’s books π
LikeLike
I’m impressed. I had no idea that you were also reading Dr. Scott Hahn. He is a Bible scholar that speaks in the language of the common man and is easy to comprehend. It is a gift. Which book are you reading, might I ask? π
LikeLike
I am reading ‘Covenant & Communion’, a study of the thought of Benedict XIV, which is most interesting. I have his Ignatius Study Bible, which I like. There’s a man thoroughly versed in Scripture. π
LikeLike
He is indeed. My friend Steve (who comments from time to time) along with his wife and mine had the privilege of picking him up at the airport eating lunch and dinner with him and then taking him back to the airport about 5 years ago. He is the real deal and a very spiritual man and we had some wonderful conversations with him. I never met a man so well read in all aspects of the faith. You might want to read the Fourth Cup as well. He has some good insights to share in that book — although, I tend to like everything I’ve read by him anyway. π
LikeLike
Thank you for the recommendation. I have to say that he is a powerful voice – and as you say, the books are good.
LikeLike
He is one of those rare minds that remembers everything he reads. He had read every book I mentioned during our conversations and I’m sure it was only pittance of those he had read and studied. At that time, I had a bit more of my memory intact but almost quote pages from many of the books he’d read. Quite a mind. π
LikeLike
That figures – you can see from what he rights that he has what used to be called ‘a well-stocked mind’. Good to know he is nice in person too. It can’t have been easy for one in his position to convert – so a brave man, too, I’d say.
LikeLike
His conversion story, Rome Sweet Home, was a painful excursion into the suffering that he and his wife took together. His wife’s father was a protestant preacher and so there was a lot of anxiety and tension. Plus he left his only means of support as a pastor of a large Church to make the move – knowing that his days of being a pastor was over.
LikeLike
That takes guts.
LikeLike
It does. Married with young children and without any idea what he was going to do is a scary proposition.
LikeLike
Very much so. You have to admire the faith of such a fellow.
LikeLike
Yes, a modern Cardinal Newman of sorts.
LikeLike
Braver in some ways Newman only had himself to worry about.
LikeLike
True that – but with very deep roots. At least Scott was only a ‘rising star’ in his faith and was still quite young. Both are to be admired though: integrity to the Spirit that moved them.
LikeLike
I can think of nothing else it could have been. Newman was, on the whole, not well-treated by your church – but he was undeterred. A sign of the depth of guys faith. Both men exemplify that unfashionable virtue – obedience.
LikeLike
There are factions of our Church that have not treated Scott Hahn very well either: he is seen as an outsider as sometimes many of us converts are.
On another subject: Who would have thought that a simple post on your confrontation on the rosary would still be drawing comments after well over 100? Looks like you found something that struck a chord and allowed expression of spiritual matters and our differences. Good job. π
LikeLike
It seems to have done, my friend. A topic I approached with caution, but as you say, it seems to have struck a chord.
I think converts sometimes have a hard time – but if it is real, then I guess it us worth it.
LikeLike
Christ provides the virtue of courage to those who have been convinced: they do not shrink from the challenge but rise to meet it. The problems I ran into drove my wife to a nervous breakdown and severe depression: but it did not stop her either (God Bless her). She is still a voice of orthodoxy among hordes of liberal voices. I am surprised that she is still employed as the head of religious education in one of Columbia’s largest parishes. But then again, she is strong woman with unshakeable faith and has learned how to dodge most of the arrows thrown at her. I of course, who used to do the inquiry class and teach RCIA caught a bunch of arrows in the back and the pastor has replaced me with an ultra-liberal voice. So my wife wins some battles and loses some battles. That is why I have so much time to write on these blogs these days. π
LikeLike
Your wife sounds a remarkable woman. Their loss is our gain π
LikeLike
She is indeed; the love of my life and the joy of my soul. π God has blessed me abundantly.
LikeLike
It sounds like it. A good wife is a great blessing – one of the greatest God can give. π
LikeLike
To use your Yorkshire term, Aye. π
LikeLike
π
LikeLike
Geoffrey – for me, there are certain roads where I see a big sign saying ‘don’t go down there!’ The sign is what I find written in Holy Scripture.
I see the sign every time someone like Servus talks about, for example posthumous miracles and there is not a single precedent in Scripture. Perhaps I am missing out on the deeper things – but I prefer to stick to the path that has been laid out clearly and plainly. I find it much safer.
I’m certainly not going to try and engage in a process of understanding if it takes me down forbidden and dangerous routes. As I said before, Scripture is the bouncer at the door.
LikeLike
Problem with that Jock is it can lead to rejection of the Trinity on just that ground – the word is never mentioned in the Bible. Indeed, nowhere in Scripture is it stated that Jesus is wholly-human and wholly-divine.
I can respect an individual saying it isn’t for them personally, but it seems unwise to think others shouldn’t.
LikeLike
Geoffrey – it is just possible that much of the argument around the Trinity simply creates unnecessary divisions.
The essential points about Jesus, his character, his relation with God, that he was without sin, in his death and resurrection my sins are dealt with and forgiven …. I’d say that all that is completely clear from Holy Scripture.
Much of the discussion around ‘Trinity’ did degenerate into the empty philosophies of men.
LikeLike
The problem with that Jock is that what is clear to you hasn’t been clear to others always – and that’s why we need some guard on folk simply reading the Bible and coming to their own conclusions.
I don’t think there is anything unnecessary about being as clear as we can about the nature of God. If the Truth is worth anything, it is worth taking trouble over.
LikeLike
….. and with this ‘Charismatic tendency’ business – I really have seen the dark side of the moon. It is dangerous. I’m convinced that Satan’s greatest weapon against the Church is deluding people with counterfeit miracles which look oh so much like the real thing.
This isn’t an abstract issue – we’re talking about something that has a strong track record – it has been extremely dangerous and Satan has used it very powerfully – even with all the safeguards that Servus describes.
LikeLike
As Servus says, it has been there from the beginning, as the story of Simon Magus shows.
Satan will always try to counterfeit what is real – and we shouldn’t not believe in what is real because of Satan’s tricks – that would be another cheap win for him.
LikeLike
The NT is clear. A saint is a born again person. The CC has robbed its devotees of sainthood. Telling them they cant be saints, so they dont bother to try and get saved by Christ.
Yes there is evidence in the bible of calling on the dead. I believe Saul called on Samuel, or someone like that. Its been awhile since i read it. But Sam was upset that he bothered him. Saul got a message alright. That he was gonna take a knife. Like i said, the religious who call on the dead show their hate of all things scriptural. The Word of god is Jesus. They hate the Words of god. While they go down to the tombs and say” If we had been in those times we wouldnt have killed the prophets or the Lord.” By this they show that they are the children of those that killed the prophets.
LikeLike
Precisely incorrect right from the get go. Each Catholic is ‘born again’ in the waters of Baptism, Bosco. It is also the teaching, which starts at the earliest stages of a Child’s education that he is being called to sainthood. All this talk of the Church having a hatred of the Scripture is just pure Bosco idiocy and ranting that we have come to endure. We love the Bible and therefore Canonized the texts and follow Her mandates: like eating and drinking the Body of Blood of Christ. You really have to find another past time other than putting your made up beliefs of what Catholic believe on the shoulders of those who actually are Catholics and know what we believe. Do you think that you are going to outdo the teachings of Church with such calumny? It is seen for what it is Bosco; you are wasting your breath.
LikeLike
Good brother Servus, the Lords words do not come back in vain, but accomplish what they were intended to do.
Being born again isnt as simple as getting wet. i wish it was. There are lots of people i know that i want to get saved. Salvation is easy. Its there for the asking.
With asking you good brother, i know what youll say. That one can loose his salvation. I say this because Hitler and Goebbles and Himmler and Stalin were all baptized. Stalin went to a catholic seminary.Are they going to sit next to me at the Supper of the Marriage.? You say a billion catholics are all saved. Jesus says the road to salvation is narrow and few be on it. This is another example of whom do you believe. The bible or what your religion tells you to believe.
Heres something else that get me in hot water;
The saved can tell another saved person. Put another way;
The saved can tell if another is saved or not. Its not hard. Its a gift of the spirit. A saved person has met the Lord and when they talk you can hear His voice. We know his voice. Another we will not follow. Jesus said this himself. The religious dont believe this happens to people. Their god has no power.
LikeLike
I didn’t say anything about who is saved Bosco. You born again types equate that with Baptism, we do not. Baptism is baptism period. Salvation is something that you can lose if you are not careful in life. You suffer from a great deal of spiritual pride in presuming upon God that once saved, always saved and that you are of a higher order than other Christians who live out their lives according to their understanding of the Bible and their Church to the best of their ability. We do not know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell. Christ alone makes the decision and not even the Magnificent Bosco can’t restrict His actions. You cannot force your belief on Him to save the ones you say are saved and cast away the ones you say He will cast away. You have taken too much authority on your own shoulders my friend.
LikeLike
Bosco – there we have it – magic water – but it isn’t mystical.
LikeLike
It isn’t mystical? We believe that the Holy Spirit gives the soul Sanctifying Grace at the moment of Baptism. I think that is pretty Mystical. The only difference is that we do not believe that Salvation is inevitable for those who received this Mystical Gift from the Holy Spirit. Free will, though a gift, can, through our poor choices and actions, negate the saving power that was given through Baptism.
LikeLike
Servus – I believe that you attribute far too much power to The Church, and to the ceremony with water, if you really think that ‘the Holy Spirit gives the soul Sanctifying Grace at the moment of Baptism’ (that is if you are referring to the ceremony where in your case a baby is sprinkled with water).
A person comes to faith – that certainly is mystical; the Spirit does something to the heart and mind of the individual, that is baptism. The ceremony with water is something that takes place later and is simply a public confession on behalf of the believer that this has happened; a public acknowledgement of the operation of the Holy Spirit in his or her life.
We miss the significance of Baptism nowadays, particularly if we live in countries where The Church (by which I mean the body of believers) is not persecuted. Baptism took courage and was the way of publicly declaring one’s faith.
If you really believe that the ceremony with water applied to a baby gives ‘Sanctifying Grace’, then that looks like medieval superstition to me.
LikeLike
Good brother Jock is right again. Does the miracle glorify Jesus? Pios crucifix marks glorify him. The dues in the pews were saying” Oh look how holy he is. He shares in the crucifixion.” Well, you know, the unsaved will do anything. I know. I was headed for mystical stuff from rock groups. The mystic stuff in Zepplin and Cream and Yes. I thought i was something cause i could play the guitar as good as the best. But i got saved and that stuff went away. But these religios are still into the mystic stuff, cause they dont have the Lord. They are still carnal.
LikeLike
Bosco, I’m not sure I follow. How does having such pain glorify Padre Pio? He found it an ordeal, and his own church suspended him for a time because they did not believe him.
LikeLike
True statement Jess. He begged Christ that he should not receive these marks. The Church did not trust him and he was kept from saying Mass and hearing Confessions which was a great spiritual pain for him. The stigmata itself was painful and he lost over a cup of blood each day for 50 years. It was nothing He wanted but Christ gave it do him: it was his cross to bear and it was given to him by Christ. He could not deny Christ and therefore suffered patiently with the affliction the rest of his life.
LikeLike
Thank you, dear friend, that was what I had read. That’s why Bosco’s comment puzzled me.
LikeLike
Well for those who are not open to the ideas of extraordinary grace are not likely to read the accounts or see the pains the Church took with the man who was subjected to countless doctors and fellow brothers who were ordered to watch him night and day to make sure that there was not a psychological problem and the wounds were not self-inflicted. So there is no wonder that they will ignore the evidence that was presented in his case for Sainthood. Difficult to discuss when they will not read the literature however. π
LikeLike
It is that which always puzzles me. I have a great love for Padre Pio, who seems to have suffered so much, and who bore it with love for Christ.
LikeLike
As do I. My wife’s grandfather used to go to Italy to see the man and it just so happens that the wedding date my wife and picked turned out to be his Feast Day. I feel a connection to him and to my family.
LikeLike
How lovely π xx
LikeLike
Indeed and in the line of St. Francis who originally called me to the Faith (and who’s Feast Day falls on my birthday). I find them both to be good omens as I had no idea of their Feast Days before I became Catholic. π xx
LikeLike
That’s really lovely – such things make one know it was meant to be π xx
LikeLike
Mostly, it gives me two things to celebrate on each of those days: doubly blessed. π xx
LikeLike
That’s so lovely π xx
LikeLike
God is good. π
LikeLike
He is so π xx
LikeLike
I am so happy you are back, dear friend. We missed you in the discussions. Lovely talking with you once again. π
LikeLike
Thank you. It is lovely to be back – and to be feeling well again – and it is always lovely to spend time with you π xx
LikeLike
Stay in good health, my friend. π xx
LikeLike
Thank you. I think I needed that break – but good to be back π xx
LikeLike
I’m sure you did need a break. I don’t know how you do it honestly. You seem always to be on the go and still find time for your blog and NEO’s as well. You are a wonder. π But slow down if the pace is too much. We don’t want you to burn out. π
LikeLike
You are very kind – but you are right – I need to be more careful than I was being π xx
LikeLike
I thought so. Slow and steady wins the race they say. That may be the case. π
LikeLike
It is good advice – and I will do my best to heed it – thank you for caring π xx
LikeLike
You are more than welcome and I do care. π xx
LikeLike
That’s so nice to know π xx
LikeLike
Hows it going good sister Jess? How you feelin? Say , what good comes from Pio and his bleeding hands? Put, ive come to the realization that one must know Jesus befor any explanations are heeded.Befor i was saved, some stupid friend of mine told me that Jesus and his disciples got drunk alot. I believed him. So, other folks believe in stigmata and a queen of the universe and crying statues. No different than i was. Once you meet Jesus, all that stuff is gone. Ye must be born again
LikeLike
Not bad now Bosco. A few days away helped. Padre Pio never made any fuss about the stigmata, and seems to have been a humble and holy man.
LikeLike
Much to your chagrin Bosco, few in the church are into Mystical Theology or Mystical Prayer though it is the highest of callings and most Saints reach that state of intimate prayer with our Lord. We are all called to such prayer but few answer the call. It, of course, is unnecessary to living a good life and the salvation or our souls but a desire to go beyond what is necessary and live a more intimate life with God is a blessing for the whole Church. They become heroes and role models from every walk of life and we can always find one who’s life if much like our own. They are easier to identify with and we can learn from them how they managed to live up to their responsibilities in life without abandoning the ultimate goal in life; the end for which they were created – God Himself.
LikeLike
Its nice to try to be like someone who did good things. It shows you want a godly life. This i know about you good brother Servus. I find most in this blog want a godly life and are searching for salvation.
” Behold I stand at the door and knock”
LikeLike
Indeed he did for me, Bosco. And I remember the night well. I lay down the book I had been meditating on and told my wife that I thought that I was being called into the Catholic Church. Her response was: I have been having the same promptings (for she was a cradle Catholic who had fallen away from the Church). And it has been a love affair with God and the Church He so Magnificently endowed ever since. I guess that would be my equivalent of your ‘born again’ moment.
LikeLike
Bosco – many thanks for this post – I understand you much better now.
….. and you’re right. The Padre Pio stuff really does seem to be to the glorification of Padre Pio, who seems to have reached the exalted rank of co-Christ.
Very dangerous – even if all the miracles are genuine, it still looks as if it has a whiff of Satan about it; PP is a co-participant in the once-for-all event. He is no longer simply a sign pointing the way.
LikeLike
Jock – pardon me (or not) but that seems melodramatic. Who has made such a claim for the chap?
LikeLike
Geoffrey …. well, that is what all this stigmata business seems to point to, at least to me.
Yes, I know that Paul talks about us participating in the sufferings of Christ, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t mean that; he got beaten up by others for proclaiming The Word – there was a visible reason (namely getting beaten up for the faith) for every single mark that appeared on his body.
LikeLike
Yes, but that is a very subjective view – Paul talks anout a ‘thron’ he bears for the Lord – that is not something external, but something he was born with, or which, like PP’s stigmata, came on later.
As I find it, neither PP nor anyone associated with him made any of the claims which, as you say, you are in fact making for him. This is how it goes wrong Jock – we take a view, we insist it must be how it looks to us, and then wonder why the other fellow thinks he’s the one with the problem.
Best let folk alone – unless they are making the sort of claims you mentioned. Accusing others of setting themselves up as co-Christs is pretty serious stuff, and if the only evidence is ‘that’s what it seems to point to … to me’ that’s flimsy grounds for serious allegations. Tends to annoy folk, Jock, and to generate more heat than light.
LikeLike
Geoffrey – what is not subjective is the observation that if the stigmata really were from God, as a sign and seal of the special place that Padre Pio held, then God himself really did make Padre Pio a co-Christ. The stigmata can’t be understood in any other way.
LikeLike
Not at all Jock. Unless you can show that this is what Catholics teach, this is simply your view, and the only person who can’t understand it in any other way is you. I’m sure if you tried harder, you could, you know.
LikeLike
Geoffrey – OK – we have to disagree on this – you won’t convince me and I won’t convince you.
As always, the teaching of the Catholic church on this matter is secondary to me. If he really was given the stigmata, by God, then this places him in a hugely exalted position, way above even the apostles Paul and Peter.
LikeLike
As you say Jock, we’ll have to disagree. I’ve no idea what stigmata might mean – except it seems to have been very painful and delilitating.
LikeLike
Hmnn… The stigmata mean to me, that there is still plenty that we don’t understand.
Perhaps those afraid of the rosary are imposing their own fears upon it; the rosary is, after all, only structured prayer and the pieces of that structure may or may not appeal but are certainly all Christian. The complaints of ‘Mariolotry’ are specious as Christs’ mother is revered but never worshipped in Catholic doctrine, if I understand it. And all of Christianity instructs us to revere our mothers, seems to me. So whether or not it appeals, the rosary is legitimate. And it is indeed a higher order when it is used for itself rather than as a “gimme” something I want request, if only for that reason!
I’m reminded a bit of the young man who said: “I hate spinach! I won’t eat it, because if I ate it, I might like it, and I hate the stuff!” π
LikeLike
That’s sounds like the truth, Jack. π
LikeLike
Pingback: RAINBOWS AND ROSARIES–The next leg of my “Journey Home” | catholicboyrichard (Stephen Francis)