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The purpose of those somewhat lengthy passages was to try to do something other than produce a long list of cherry-picked quotations which prove nothing to those not already convinced.
Geoffrey Sales has raised the issue I am long familiar with, and done so in an interesting way. There is no doubt that the powers of binding and loosing were given to all the Apostles; every Catholic should be happy to say that. But it was Peter who was the Rock, Peter who is at the head of the name-lists, Peter who was regarded by the Fathers as in some way special. Geoffrey, rather ingeniously in my view, adapts the Orthodox argument – that is that all the Apostles inherit the same position – to his own Baptist church. I’ve not heard that done before, and it is a sign of the supple and independent nature of Baptists that an elder can come up with it. But let me try to outline why neither it, nor the Orthodox original, will quite do.
Let me say up front that this is about what a primacy of honour means – a road we’ve been down here before. The last few posts have established that the ancient Church felt that Rome was the place where you went when vexed questions arose. If we are fair, we will surely acknowledge that that was not in the way some Catholic apologists suggest – that is with the Pope as the driving force. It was more complex and more collegial, but there was order. Does anyone think Christ mandated confusion?
In his first letter to the Corinthians St. Paul writes clearly, “for God is not a God of confusion [ἀκαταστασίας — disorder] but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” (1 Cor. 14:33) A few verses later he writes: “But all things must be done properly and in an orderly [τάξιν] manner.” (1 Cor 14:40) To see only confusion on the day of Pentecost and in the early Church is to miss the clear evidence that Christ gave authority to His Apostles, and that they authorised others to succeed them in governing and teaching the particular Churches so that all things would be done in an orderly manner, and that there was an established means by which the unity and peace of the Church would be preserved.
Geoffrey, like the Orthodox, argue that “a consensus emerges’; really? A consensus did not emerge among the conjunction of those following the decision of the Council of Nicea and those following Arius. The magisterial decision against the Arians forced the Arians out of the visible Church, and thus did not allow Arianism to be even a “branch within” the Church. A consensus did not emerge between Catholics and Marcionites; rather, the magisterial decision by the Church of Rome forced the Marcionites out of the visible Church, and again did not allow Marcionism to be a “branch within” the Church. And so on, with all the heresies throughout Church history.
If we In the end it turns on Christ’s words. He said that Peter was the Rock on which His Church would be built. The usual Protestant quibbles seem to me unworthy of intelligent men and women. Christ’s words mean something, and they cannot be qubbled away.
The Pope Emeritus was keen to explore how the primacy could be understood in a way which did justice to the traditions of the ancient Church. But Rome cannot talk to itself – even if it has too often sounded like it is doing just that. Other Christians need to divine the word of God in St. Matthew’s passage – not explain it away.
The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. —-2 Samuel 22:47
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. —–
1 Corinthians 10:4
There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. ——1 Samuel 2:2
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. —–Psalms 89:26
He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved. —–Psalms 62:2
Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man’s disciples? He saith, I am not.—-John Chapter 18 ;17
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Thanks Bosco – yes, Christ is indeed the chief cornerstone of our faith.
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Chalcedon – you see, there is simply nothing in my experience that could lead me to divine the Word of God any differently in the Matthew passage.
Peter, yes. I read Peter’s sermons in Acts. People were cut to the heart. They came to faith by their thousands upon hearing Peter preach it out. If the Pope were to preach it out like that, you wouldn’t have to exhort anyone at all to reconsider their understanding of the Matthew passage; it would speak plainly for itself.
In my previous job, after we knocked off, my colleague and I would download papal encyclicals and read them before we went down to a local licenced premises to watch Manchester United playing. He enjoyed them – they worked for him; they didn’t work for me.
Binding and loosing – I think it was very clear, during their ministry on earth, when Peter, and the other apostles, were doing exactly that. Some of these events are recorded in the Acts. But I simply don’t see it today. If the powers of binding and loosing really had been passed down to Peter’s successor, then I believe that this really would speak for itself.
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I can respect that Jock. However, it does seem to me to require putting one’s subjective experience at the centre of world-wide Christianity – which may work for the individual, but was not what happened in the time of the Apostles.
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People in other sites have ridiculed me and the KJV for not having these extr books that the catholic bible has. Well, i went and found them and thumbed thru them. …You have to be kidding. Its easy to tell they are not from the mouth of god. Fictitious names and places. Im not surprised. i did expect more from them, but was shocked at how inane they were.
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Bosco – I’m inclined to agree, although I don’t know why you insist on the KJV. I’ve always use the NIV and have found it a reasonably nice translation. The important point here is that the Word of God should shine through in any reasonable translation and as soon as it reduced to quibbles over prepositions and grammar, then you know that it’s no longer the core of the Christian faith that is under discussion.
But as far as the extra books, papal encyclicals and other things go – perhaps ‘inane’ is the wrong word, but I agree with the sentiment.
I’d liken it to a lecture I once heard by Richard Rogers, the architect. Even though he produces questionable buildings, it was a great lecture. The man has vision (although I wish he had less opportunity to apply this vision in city centres). But I left at the end when someone was asking questions about the central heating system in the Pompidou Centre.
The Pompidou Centre is, indeed, a monstrosity. I’d say that the central heating system is not the central issue here and comes well down the list.
It’s as if the books in the canon of Holy Scripture contain the red meat and the vision, the life giving Word, while the apocryphal books, papal encyclicals and that sort of thing are, at best, inviting us to consider trivial issues and irrelevancies.
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Wow. Anyway, one of the perks of being saved is that we know the shepherds voice. In these extra books, i didnt hear the voice, I know the religious wont believe me. But thats how it goes. Theres 2 ways to find out. The easy way and the hard way. i can see why those rambling bambling books arent in my bible. Nobody better hit me with that again, or im gonna go off. Promise.
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Putting aside any question of the merit or status of the books, as a matter of simple fact, the KJV originally did contain the ‘Apocrypha’ and many editions still do. (The 1899 copy I most frequently use does.) The history behind their exclusion is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version#Apocrypha
But Bosco, peace! I’m really not trying to get into an argument on this!! (And I share your respect for the KJV among English translations.)
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I am not sure that C451 will welcome support from a confessed agnostic, even one who has made a career out of studying the episcopal succession in the Church of the East; but for what it’s worth, I think he is absolutely right to say that the Petrine claims cannot simply be argued away. When Jesus said that Peter was the rock upon which he would build his Church, he accorded Peter some sort of primacy, however vaguely expressed. Neither James nor Paul felt able to deny Peter’s special position in the Church, much though they doubtless wished to do so. Paul (a rather prickly and unpleasant sort of chap, I have always thought) claimed to have withstood Peter to his face on one occasion, but this self-serving boast merely underlined Peter’s position. Paul might argue with him, but he could not ignore him.
I was also interested in the suggestion that the second generation of Christian leaders was more worldly and less committed than the first. I don’t think that’s a particularly surprising development. Why should we expect the burning enthusiasm of the apostles who had known Jesus personally to have lasted for more than a single generation? Secondly, the problems faced by the Christian Church in the second century were very different from those it had faced in the first generation after the death of Jesus. It had to deal with difficult problems of inheritance (all those Christian virgins leaving their property to the Church) and needed administrators to sort things out. If I were a second-century Christian layman urged to contribute a tenth of my worldly goods to the support of the local poor, I would prefer my bishop to be a hard-headed administrator than a flaky charismatic with a taste for speaking in tongues.
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Thank you David. You make excellent points. When people say ‘Jesus wouldn’t have done x’ I sm sure they are right – Jesus was not running a world-wide church. If you are expecting the parousia next week you can be as flaky as you like – if it doesn’t come, then you’ve misunderstood and you need to make privision for a continuing church.
It seems pretty clear to me that many of that first generation did expect the second coming to be imminent. When it wasn’t, they had to work out how to continue.
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Christians are often tempted, particularly in this time called modern, to say more than we know. We are so tempted because we fear we do not believe what we say we believe. So we try to assure ourselves that we believe what we say we believe by convincing those who do not believe what we believe that they really believe what we believe once what we believe is properly explained. As a result we end up saying more than we can know because what we believe – or better, what we do – cannot be explained but only shown. The word we have been given for such a showing is “witness
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That is profoundly true Malcolm.
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