Struans and Malcolm have both picked up on the theme of the corrupting effects of power. My own posts earlier this week indicate where I stand. But a caveat or two need to be entered.
The Papal States did not come, as some seem to imagine, from an urge to secular power, but rather as the answer to a problem; it could be argued it was not the best answer, but the moment the nature of the problem is outlined, the issue of what the best answer might be arises.
With the fall of Rome in the early fifth century, and with the removal of the imperial capital to Constantiniople nearly a century earlier, the fate of the Bishop of Rome was effectively at the mercy of barbarian successor states. Thanks to the work of Popes like Leo the Great, the Papacy managed to establish itself as a very effective intermediary between the people of Rome and their rulers – and those, like Atilla, who threatened them. The gradual estabishment of the Papal States provided the Papacy with an answer to the problem of what to do when secular rulers threatened to use force against it; it fought fire with fire – and diplomacy. One might argue that this was not what Christ would have done; the riposte is simple, Christ was not trying to run a Church and to keep it secure against the secular arm. As the fate of the Church of the East shows, mass martyrdom is not, in this world, a particularly effective way of mission.
Rome was unique in this respect. In Constantinople the Patriarch was viturally appointed by the Emperor, and the latter always exercised a great deal of control over the Church there. The ‘Caeasaro-Papism’ some claim to divine in the Middle Ages was a reality only where there was no Pope. It is true that not even the Papal States protected the Pope at all times, but Rome was more often independent of the State than not – and certainly more so than was the case in the Eastern Empire.
The same is true of the successor churches in the West. The Church of England would not have been founded without the State violence unleashed by Henry VIII, and he, like many of his successors, took an active role in the appointment of bishops and even priests. As Newman pointed out at the time of the Gorham case in 1850, the poor old C of E couldn’t even determine its own doctrines – a parliament which was not even Anglican had that right. No church should be in such a position; many have been. Indeed, and ironcally, had Charles V not been in occupation of Rome at the time old Henry wanted to rid himself of his old wife, it is likely the Pope would have granted the usual annulment. State power over the church seldom works well.
The Russian Orthodox Patriarch was virtually an officer of the Tsarist State, a situation which continued once Stalin had realised he needed the Church in 1941. During Ottoman rule, the Patriarchal throne was often sold to the highest bidder. All of that was positively benign compared to what happened to the Church of the East.
So yes, power corrupts. An absence of it tends to lead, at one end of the spectrum, to the extinction of the church, through to, at the other, State control. The detsruction of the Papal States in 1866 left the Pope almost defenceless against his enemies, and Napoleon III’s troops were stationed there to keep him safe. The first Vatican Council was suspended in 1871 when the troops of the Italian State bombarded the Vatican. Leo IX declared himsef the prisoner in the Vatican, and it was only in 1929, when the Fascist regime of Mussolini needed to won popular support, that the Latern treaties were signed which led to the formation of the Vatican State.
The tiny Vatican enclavee remains the best answer anyone has found to the question of how to ensure that a global Church has a leader who is not going to be subjected to direct State power. Whatever is wrong with the current Curia, it is the bureaucratic side of things which needs reforming, not the notion of having a Vatican State.
I’ve forgotten his name for the moment but the King of Prussia forcing the merger of the Lutheran and Reformed churches in 1816 also comes to mind as an example.
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Frederick William III I think. Yes, the Lutheran Church is another good example.
We have to exist in this world (unless anyone thinks mass martydom the way forward) and that requires some form of contact with the State. I doubt there’s a perfect one, but there are many imperfect ones – it seems to me a metter of finding the least imperfect.
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Yes, I’m pretty sure that is correct, mind block in a commbox strikes again. 🙂
I daresay you’re right and see little appeal (or utility) in mass martyrdom, so I think finding a way to live with the state is a good idea-and that means some accommodation, not in doctrine, but in less important things to making it happen. Sort of like etiquette.
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Yes, and for that, it helps if the Church is not entirely dependant upon the State.
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Very much so.
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chalcedon451, I like what you say and am much in accord with you. You hit the nail on the head when you say its the bureaucratic side of things that needs to be reformed. It must have been a great problem for Benedict XVI who is primarily a scholar and thinker.
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It would not surprise me at all if that was not why he left. In my own very minor way I find it difficult to be what I am required to be (an academic bureaucrat) and what I ahve always been (a scholar).
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You’ve set out your position very well, perhaps I can say. Let me offer the following observations by way of reply:-
(a) if there was a need at one point (even for an extended period of time) for a protective capacity for the papacy, that doesn’t necessarily mean at all that such structures need to be maintained for all time, especially in todays Europe – so if the Vatican current power structures are as they are because of the possibility of external threats, then I suggest that todays more benign environment is an ideal time to reform now that the threat is diminished
(b) that there was a possible perceived need for the papacy to have such protective capacity as you have outlined was, I suggest, a direct result of the papacy claiming exclusive power for itself, in the sense of it’s claimed ability to direct all of Christendom by the say so of one man. If there were a continuation of a distributed form of power, such as existed before the Gregorian reforms, by either ecumenical councils, or otherwise, then I suggest that there would be less of a threat to the bishop of Rome – he’d be just one bishop amongst others. Indeed, it’s not the case that to have the bishop of Rome agree is a prerequisite to agreement at ecumenical councils as evidenced by Nicaea.
(c) if the papacy is able to evidence threats by temporal powers, then I suggest that it oughtn’t be assumed that the papacy has been benign in the coming about of such matters: I offer, from an English perspective, the praemunire controversies.
However, I accept that it is easy to look back with hindsight.
As I’ve mentioned before though, now would seem to be as good a time as any for the Vatican to reassess it’s needs for the power structures of a medieval monarchy. It could still keep it’s separate statehood – I don’t think that’s so much of an issue today.
Indeed the basis, so I believe, for unity, as proposed by the Anglican Communion in it’s involvement with the Anglican – Roman Catholic International Commission is that the bishop of Rome can be recognised by Anglicans as head of the church as long as that is understood to be a primacy of honour amongst bishops, not of power.
Needless to say, not to have primacy of power is a sticking point here.
Thanks for putting your post together though – it caused me to think, and I don’t mean to be dismissive of a need in times past for protection of the church, but I don’t see that what might have been adopted for specific protective purposes, to be generous and accept that that is the case, needs always to remain the same.
S.
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I appreciate, as I have come to do always, your thoughtful contribution. In fact, I find myself so much in agreement with most of it that I have been emboldened to fill up more of Jessica’s space with a fuller treatment of this fascinating subject.
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Thanks for your generous reply.
As an aside, I recently read this (see link below), and I thought I’d share it here. It might be food for thought for a few of the RCs on this blog.
http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2013/02/how_to_pick_the_next_pope.html
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A most interesting account – thank you.
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‘mass martyrdom is not, in this world, a particularly effective way of mission.’
Perhaps God sees it differently.
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Or perhaps He gave us brains to work it out? The story of the Church of the East is not, I’d have thought, one we’d want to hold up as an example.
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I thought that little was known of the reasons for the collapse of the Church of the East. It’s also not completely clear that their beliefs were ‘Christian’, except in some generalised sense.
It is completely clear, though, from the early church, that Christians were prepared to be martyred for their faith (e.g. Paul, Peter, Polycarp). The Church of Christ was much smaller in number, but spiritually much stronger when martyrdom was a very real possibility. The biggest disaster that Christianity has seen was when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, thus making it far too easy to be a Christian. The emphasis has always been living for Christ in a pagan world – and I don’t see the justification for the creation of a state.
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Jock, do look back at Jessica’s series here a month or so ago. A great deal is known; they were certainly Christian; and lacking any protecting State, they were massacrd in their tens of thousands. Not, I suspect, a recipe for success – as that Church shows.
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Calchedon – I’m afraid I have to disagree here. Your knowledge of the Church of the East is better than mine – and I can only write about general principles here.
I have never been in a situation where martyrdom has been a possibility and hopefully God will keep me from such a situation.
Martyrs have always held my extreme admiration, though. I’m sure that these tens of thousands of Christians who were martyred for their faith will receive their heavenly reward and I’m also sure that God does not consider their witness to be lacking in success.
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I don’t disagree on an individual basis. I simply doubt it is what God intends for us all – or even most of us.
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Chalcedon – I’m talking ‘theoretically’ here, since I don’t know how I would react to such a situation – I pray that if the need arose, the Lord would strengthen me so that I would be prepared to undergo martyrdom.
I disagree with you – God calls on all those within the number of the Saviour’s family to be prepared for martyrdom.
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He does so; but he does not say we should go to seek it. Indeed the early church was very suspicious of those who did.
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Chalcedon – I agree with that. I don’t think that the Church of the East was actively seeking mass martyrdom (but I don’t know the situation there).
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My point was that by not having any protection from any State, or any ability to protect itself, it was vulnerable to what happened to it – almost total destruction.
In the West and East one of two things happened: either patronage and control by the State; or the Papacy, which became its own state.
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Chalcedon451 – yes, I did get that point.
You seem to accept that these people were not actively seeking martyrdom, therefore (based on the assumptions that we’ll accept for this discussion) their witness was good and they have received their heavenly reward, which is much more important than the survival of any community here on earth. If God had wanted to protect them, then he would have protected them; they were martyred to His glory even if you and I don’t understand why it was so glorious.
I accept that Israel of the Old Testament was a state that protected itself, but I see absolutely nothing suggesting that anything approaching this should be the norm for Christianity in the New Testament. I see the book of Daniel as quite instructive for Christians in this regard – a situation where the Jews had to live out their Christian lives in a hostile environment.
The idea that Christians needed a state to protect them sounds a bit like Tom Lehrer’s ‘The Lord’s my Shepherd says the psalm, but just in case we’re going to get a bomb.’
I don’t accept that Christianity has flourished either under the patronage of the state or under the patronage of the Papacy. In both of these cases, Christians have been able to find a Spiritual home there, but against the backdrop of an institution that is essentially anti-Christian and necessarily so, since this sort of patronage or protection has not been instituted in the New Testament.
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Without a State to protect it, then the church could easily go the way of the Church of the East.
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The patrarch of (constantinople) istanbul was very lucrative position. The bidding was high, many patrarchs where forced out of office by murder, so the position could be resold to a new patrach by the islamic ruler. It was not wise nor safe to be in control of the semi-secular authorities. The secular government today controls what books are in the patrarch’s library, what new books he can buy to put in his library, he has state minders from the office of religion. This office controls what churches are built, what churches can be repaired, when and where services can be held, the numbers allowed at mass, this is under the modern Turkish state which guarenteed freedom of worship. There are very few of greek desendants left in the city of istanbul who remain orthodox. And the argument that orthodox are not christians is laughable, they will tell you plainly that rome has gone modern not the orthodox and orthodox is pure and protestantism is just a heresy from hell, plain and simple.
Last the church came before the new testament therefore it is is the mother, the new testament is the daughter of the church. there is a separation of 396 years from the founding of the church in jerusalem and the canon of the bible. so you can not say for reasons of time that the church must be a new testament church when the new testament was not there to testify how it should be. 396 years.
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