A dear friend of this blog, and a long-time follower and commentator, David Monier-Williams, asked: ‘At some point of your choosing, it might be very useful to summarize what points all agree upon and the major ones where we each disagree.’ That was a very good point. So here goes.
It can essentially be summed up by the Nicene Creed. That was the standard of orthodoxy for the early Church, and it remains a key in terms of what unites us. Anyone who can subscribe to the Nicene Creed has, I suspect, more in common than they have that divides them.
If we take things historically, the first thing which divided Christians was disagreement over the natures of Christ. Talks over the last few decades have revealed that far less divides us here than our forefathers thought – and both types of Orthodox, and Orthodox and Catholics have made very positive statement here. That may not have penetrated to the laity, but the theological obstacles once so large and imposing are not what they were thought to be.
Practically, there are two main areas which divide Catholics and Orthodox: one is the filioque clause, which few, if any, now think means that the Catholic Church believe in ‘double procession’ (follow the links); the other is the position of the Pope. If pushed, I suspect it is the position of the Pope which is the main stumbling block. Here the Popes have been more accommodating than the Orthodox, but the problem remains.
It is also the major issue which divides the Chalcedonians in the West. From it, most of the other issues derive. After all, old Luther didn’t want to start a new church, he wanted to reform the existing one – something true of those who advised Henry VIII.
Theologically-informed people will go on to talk about sacraments, and their number, but I would lay money that for the people in the pews this counts for little. The major difference here is about the Eucharist and is between the older churches and the Protestants. Although the Orthodox do not hold the doctrine of transubstantiation, that is only because for them it is far too precise a definition of what is a great mystery – the fact that the elements of Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Our Blessed Lord. On that Orthodox and Catholics agree. Anglo-Catholics also agree. Many Protestants regard the Eucharist as a memorial of His Saving Passion – a non-sacramental view of the matter. However, surveys show that many Catholics don’t actually believe in it either!
So, here are some of the major differences, but I wonder, as with Transubstantiation, how many lay people actually think most of these things matter enough to divide them? What divides us is history. A long history of division is not easily healed, and whilst some old divisions have been, none of the major ones have been.
Well, clearly, as we have no external enemies and have made such progress in evangelising the world, we are free to do nothing but reinforce that our church is right and all the others are wrong. What’s that? We have many external enemies and we’re not evangelising the world? Well, perhaps we might ponder that one?
As a follower of “old Luther” well said.
And yes, I doubt most in the pews really know what we speak of with transubstantiation or (our quite similar) consubstantiation or a remembrance or memorial.
LikeLike
I am sure that is right.
LikeLike
That’s what I think.
LikeLike
Yes, the creeds and the councils and the other things. Yes. Me, i just follow behind the Lamb of God.
LikeLike
It was explained to me the word ‘remembrance’ means more then we understand in English. It is more of a physical remembrance, if you are stung by a bee on the arm it swells up and later maybe a month you are stung in the leg, the arm swells up in remembrance. It is not function of the mind but more a function of the body, it is a physical act. Am I wrong JappaPapa, Jessica, Leo, Geoff? I would ask Bozo but he is off in the far pasture following the lamb.
LikeLike
I think you’re right here, Tom. It does mean more than the word does in English. Bot it not the same as either Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation either.
LikeLike
Well in a very valuable way you are free of sin where I would not be; Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:27 declare us to be guilty of profaning Christ’s body and blood if we receive the Eucharist unworthily’. I believe therefore as the Archbishop of Canterbury said in Henry V ‘The sin be on my head, dread sovereign’. I can understand why the disciples turned away, for the life is in the blood, but He did not change His words, the passover lamb must be eaten, the fourth cup drunk for the sacrifice to be finished. You cannot be unworthily until you believe. You have honor in what you do. As a Lutheran you should watch the search for shakespeare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_XU7sfBJ0
LikeLike
Although the Orthodox do not hold the doctrine of transubstantiation
erm, untrue — the Orthodox in fact formally recognised the truth of that doctrine fairly shortly after the Catholic Church first formally promulgated it (though arguments may have occurred in earlier centuries).
Though the Orthodox use the word Metousiosis rather rthan Transubstantiation, the theological and doctrinal significance of the two words is basically identical.
One less thing dividing us than you thought !!! ๐
LikeLike
I have never spoken with an Orthodox who agreed with you Jabba. They object to the preciseness of doctrine.
LikeLike
Jessica I wonder if that is because Latin is a concrete language, very physical, a engineer’s precise language; wereas Greek is a better language for theology, it is more open. Or I drank to much Irish coffee last night. Hmmm coffee.
LikeLike
It could well be, my friend. ๐ x
LikeLike
The only real differences between the two conceptions are esoteric, philosophical, and non-doctrinal.
The doctrine per se teaches that the Bread and Wine become Flesh and Blood. In this, the Catholic and Orthodox are in complete agreement.
… which is not to say that the arguments about the proper philosophical understanding of the doctrine don’t exist, nor that they aren’t divisive : but these are based on separate analyses of the one same doctrine, rather than on two different teachings.
The doctrine originated in the Eastern Church, anyway…
The degree of difference in interpretation is no wider than would be found in two licit Catholic interpretations of any commonly held Catholic doctrine.
Pax tecum. ๐
LikeLike
I agree, Jabba, but as so often, it is getting past those Orthodox who seem to regard opposition to all things Roman as what defines them. Sensible men know there is no real division here ๐ x
LikeLike
๐
I’ve just been looking at the 1672 formal declaration of the doctrine of Metousiosis at the Orthodox Council of Jerusalem, and I can see nothing in that declaration that disagrees with Catholic teaching.
You’re right Jess, it all just keeps on boiling down to that same old reticence towards Rome, the Curia, and the Pope … sigh …
LikeLike
I fear that that is right – and it is such a shame.
LikeLike
What is the “double procession” in regards to the fililique?
LikeLike
It is the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son, rather than from the Father through the Son. One of those points of doctrine on which the early Church (and some moderns) can still get themselves very excited.
LikeLike
I can remember one exciting discussion on this very blog !!
LikeLike
Me too ๐ xx
LikeLike
The hymnal I have says “who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” Please explain. Sorry if i’m opening up an old can of worms.
LikeLike
At the first Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in 325 the Church agreed that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Orthodox Church still keeps to this. The Western Church, from the 800s added the words ‘and the Son'(Filioque, in Latin) by its own initiative.
To the Orthodox this meant that the Latins were saying that the Spirit had two sources, the Father and the Son. This is not what the West meant.
LikeLike
Why was the filioque added? I thought I read it came from Spain, is that true? Proceedth from the Father AND the Son sounds like something it isn’t supposed mean appearently. Why did the creed get changed to say the son was eternally born of the father. Rewording of the filioque sounds in order. Ronald Knox pray for us.
LikeLike
It is a complicated story. It seems to have originated in Spain as part of an attempt to emphasise that the Holy Spirit was a full part of the Trinity, and that Christ was indeed True God of True God. All praiseworthy motives. But it became bound up in power struggles between the West and the East in the ninth and tenth centuries.
The Catholic theologian, Aidan Nicols, has written very sensibly on this in his book on the Orthodox Church and Rome. Understood aright, the two Churches believe the same thing.
LikeLike
Why was “eternally born of the Father, before all ages ” recently added? Just asking.
LikeLike
‘Begotten of the Father before all ages’ has always been part of the Creed, and the words you quote are one of a number of possible English translations. It was put there to combat the Arian heresy which held that Jesus was just a man, not the eternal Word.
LikeLike
The Western Church, from the 800s added the words โand the Sonโ(Filioque, in Latin) by its own initiative.
hmmmmm, no — in fact they were added by a full Ecumenical Council of the Church, including the Eastern Bishops ; it was the Eastern faithful who originally rejected the change, not initially the Eastern Church itself.
The doctrine was first explicited in detail theologically at a local (non-Ecumenical) Council in Spain, but these details have been accepted by the Western Church as forming part of the Catholic doctrine in question ; obviously not by the Orthodox.
Having done a new translation of the doctrinal passage from the texts of the Spanish Council, for the purpose of the can of worms in question, I can add that an extra level of great confusion is added by the fact that these texts have circulated in some very inefficiently translated versions.
LikeLike
Interesting, Jabba, but which Council did the Orthodox accept it at?
LikeLike
hmmmm, sorry I may have been misremembering — one interesting thing though I discovered, while looking for it, is that the Filioque was actually first introduced by a local Council of the Eastern Church !!! (Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon)
LikeLike
Yes, that last one is very interesting – and of course, another reason the Church started off suspicious of it.
LikeLike
Though they actually did accept it at the time of the 15th century aborted reunification, which was thwarted by the Muslim invasion of the Holy Land.
LikeLike
Ah, well, that raises the question of who ‘they’ were ๐ The OC version is, of course, that no one person had the power to accept for the whole OC. That, as Chalcedon has pointed out here, is a real weakness in terms of dealing with the OC over any kind of unity. The Pope speaks for Catholics – no one person can do that for the OC.
LikeLike
Geez. The one true church of god the holy ghost sure is complicated.
LikeLike
I think it is we who complicate it. God is Infinite, we aren’t, and we struggle to put into our concepts a God who transcends them all. A bit more humility on our part might help ๐ xx
Hope you are well Bosco?
LikeLike
Interesting note, Jess. I think your final paragraph is telling, by the way. The external enemies, and the obvious internal also (failure to see the urgency of reaching and discipling) may play a much larger role in our divisions than we give credit. I fear an internal foe named “pride” has usually wielded sword in my own heart when winning an argument becomes priority to laying down my life for my Lord and my brethren. Blessings good friend.
LikeLike
Thank you my friend – there is a lesson in that for us all – pride so often drives us – but not where the Lord wants.
LikeLike
It is wonderful that there are so many voices here, it is a picnic of the art of belief, and yes I will have some more potato salad and fried chicken. What is for dessert?
LikeLike
Not custard ๐ xx
LikeLike
Have you ever heard Jesus say…to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel?Thats what im seeing. Jesus is the Word. The Word is life. Jesus is the Bread of life. His Word is the Bread of life. Eat my flesh and drink my blood. Man does not live by bread alone, but every Word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Eating and drinking of Him is believing his Word. Taking it in and living by it. Remember me as oft as ye do this. Its that simple. Remember Him. Still, ye must be born again, of spirit and water. If there is no where for water baptism, god wont hold that against you. Its only an outward thing to show the world. What does god say at judgment? Well done. You performed all the rituals. Enter my rest. He says…Depart form me, ye doers of iniquity. I Never Knew You. Thats the only requirement. Knowing Jesus personally. You must be born again. He gives you a new spirit that knows him. For me, i was sitting in a bus going home. Then things looked different all of a sudden. Everything looked vain. The stores, the billboards, all was vanity. When i got home i said thing to my parents i shouldnt have known. I quoted bible, that i never read befor. Well, thats my account. Oh, plus, when i opened the bible the next morning, i knew who i was reading about. I was thinking…wow, look at what my new friend can do.
LikeLike
Seems to me, most churches are stuck with reckoning all the competition erroneous; if not, how claim their primacy with God and their authority as His teacher? But they must remember too (and it seems difficult for most) the command to love one another. A nice wrestling match for believers!
That seems to keep popping up in these discussions, an impressive enough accomplishment. Some of the churches appear to be moving sloooowly in the direction as well.
Perhaps, now that a majority of the population of what used to be called: “Christendom” has abandoned Christianity, the oncoming world financial chaos will lubricate a reconciliation among the disparate sects…at least, until things have been better for a while… Hasn’t God done things like that a number of times already?
LikeLike