Our discussion seems to have taken us into the territory of what it means to be ‘saved’. Talking to an Evangelical friend she gave the clearest and most straightforward answer: ‘You have to receive Jesus as your personal Saviour.’ When I asked how she thought we did this, she said ‘repent and call Him Lord’. That was certainly a good Biblical answer and reminded me of Bosco, which was nice; indeed when she asked why I had a nice smile, I had to admit I was thinking of a commentator on this blog. Her response was: ‘Well if he makes you smile like the Jess, that can’t be a bad thing.’
Nor was, or is it. It set me to thinking of whether I was not making heavy weather of something quite straightforward, but then I thought no, because we have been discussing some of the points which came to Christians after they had received Christ, not before, so in that sense, we are all at a later stage of the discussion.
I was not sure whether Bosco or my friend Helen would appreciate that, because I was not sure that although we are speaking the same language, we are using it in the same way. Helen certainly seemed convinced that having received Jesus as her personal Saviour she was ‘saved’. When I asked what she meant, she said it meant she was going to Heaven when she died. She asked what I meant. I want to share that answer with the community here.
I said that yes, I was saved. I had received Jesus and declared my faith in Him as my Redeemer; He had died for my sins, and I owned Him as Lord, so I partook of that once and for all act of atonement (it is here I felt most as though I was not quite on secure ground, so do feel free to help 🙂 ). I was, I said, ‘a new creation’ in Him. I am being saved, by holding fast in Him, and. being justified by His blood, I hoped to be saved from the wrath to come.
It seemed to me that unless one read the first passage from 2 Corinthians, in the light of the other two passages (links above) you got a one-dimensional account of what salvation was.
For example, if you were ‘saved’ did that mean you could do nothing sinful (one ancient heresy) or did it mean (an even worse one) that nothing you did could be seen as sinful. Or did it mean that if we did something wrong after receiving the Lord, you ‘lost’ your salvation and could never regain it? But if that was the case, why should anyone bother to regret a sin and try to make themselves right with Christ again? That seemed, I said, a real obstacle in the way of a repentant sinner. Indeed, it reminded me of the Emperor Constantine, who only became a Christian at the end of his life in case he did anything wrong after baptism.
It also seemed to me a very individualistic doctrine of salvation which made little sense of the words of Christ and the Apostles about a church and a community of believers being the Body of Christ. There was, it seemed to me, a difference between an assurance of salvation – that is the hope, and a certainty – after all, if one had the latter, what the point of a Last Judgement.
For me, and for Catholic and Orthodox, salvation is a dynamic process, not a one-off.
Micheal Cumbie, who was once a “Saved” Christian, said that you came forward in the church and standing before the whole congregation believing it in your heart you confessed it with your mouth that, Jesus Christ was your Saviour.
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And that is something that we do, perhaps for some, in theory, at confirmation, or in the old German Evangelical and Reformed tradition, a week before on Examination Sunday.
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Yes NEO, Catholics are “Saved” first by Baptism, second by Confirmation and mostly thereafter by confession and the Eucharist.
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That is very much what we Lutherans believe as well, David, slight differences, of course, none going to the root of the matter.
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Thats just the beginning. You must mean it. Its up to god if and when he makes you born again. I cant for the life of me figure out why he chose me. Im super glad he did. But why me? Im not the worst person in the world, but im close. If the catholic church is gods church, how come the spirit didnt lead me there? My guess is the total and rampant idolatry. Mormons and Jehovas got passed up too. Kathrine koulman died on me. So i was on my own.
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I always had a question for those who believe that “once saved, always saved” is an infallible truth. However, I have never received an answer for it. My question is this:
If Christ died “once, and for all” as we believe, and if the only act of freewill we need to make in our entire lifetime is to say “I accept you as my personal lord and savior”, then why does God not just do one of 2 things: either speak to our spirit before we are born, revealing the Good News, and let us make the choice (we would then either go directly to heaven or hell), or secondly, why not just rapture those who are saved or have them quickly die once they make this decision on earth? It seems a terrible waste of time and a great inconvenience to keep living once one is already saved.
Why should I (once being saved) have to endure any more suffering or sickness when all God is looking for is one simple answer to one simple question. It seems venictive to me. Let’s just have the question and answer and get this thing done.
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I shall look forward to seeing what answers people give to that one 🙂
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Yeah, it’s a child’s question that gets to the heart of things. Like, why is the sky blue? 🙂
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It is an a fascinating question, and like really important one, it’s is a childlike question. Answer will be fascinating. 🙂
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Yeah neo. Maybe the Heaven’s Gate people had it right. Maybe they thought that they could not lose their salvation and just decided to go the Jack Kevorkian route.
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There are seceral ancient heresies which believed such things. I am, when I have a moment, going to look through my files to see what they were called 🙂
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That would be interesting Jess. 🙂
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Yes, I do hope Bosco reads it. If not, I will ask my friend Helen next time we meet.
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Make sure you pass on the answer to me. I never got an answer other than what most parents give their child for the blue sky question. Which is usually, “just because that’s the way it is.” I want the adult answer to the child’s question, don’t you? 🙂
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Very much so – and if Bosco is reading, I hope he will offer us one.
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That will a be very interesting answer, I have never heard a real answer either.
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Neo, I guess the other way to ask the question would be like Larry the Cable Guy: “Why doesn’t God just get ‘er done?” 🙂
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Accept Jesus as your Lord and savoir . Excuse me…personal Lord and saviour. You guys have never heard me say that. Ive never liked that phrase. Heres why. Ok i accept Jesus as my personal Lord and saviour…..alrite, now what? Boom, am i born again yet?
Heres something you guys wont get until it happens to you. Ill tell you anyway because i like you mugs. You ask Jesus to come show himself to you. Then you wait. Im sure there are lots of times when it happened rite away. Some,,the next day or few days. For me, it was roughly 2 hrs. And i didnt want to be born again. I just said that prayer with that girl cause she made me do it. Yes, i always believed in the christmas story, and i had a firm belief in Jesus, but i didnt know he was god. I was like you guys, unsaved and didnt know which end was up. And didnt care.
I know of people who swear they asked Jesus into their lifes, like alot of you in here. Most of the religion people here say…well uh, the euchrist saved me and i got dunked in water and i did this and that. When you are born again, you get a new spirit, one from heaven, and this spirit knows Jesus face to face. Its like a hard drive thats been in heaven and is put into a computer. The computer box hasnt been to heaven but its operation system has. I didnt see or hear Jesus, but i knew him and knew his voice. I didnt know what happened, i wasnt happy or sad.I just felt like telling everyone who would listen that i just met the creator of heaven and earth. Would you like to meet him? Let me introduce you.
You can stand in front of the audience and say…i accept Jesus….But until that new spirit is dropped in you, you are still unsaved. No matter how much you get dunked or stare at that golden trinket. I hope this helps.
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I think it must be like the joke when Zsa Zsa Gabor dies and go to hell, where she is welcomed by a very charming host in a morning coat and on his head some very tasteful done small horns, and taken to her cell. Where the Host escorts her in and standing in the center of the cell is Joseph Stain. She is shocked and says to her Host what have I done to desire this punishment?, The Host says, ‘Sorry, madam, but this is not your punishment, it is his.
I think God leaves the saved people here to punish us with the statement “I am saved, Are you saved, Do want to be saved, all you have to do is…or all you have to do is… or…or…or…for at least 2 million times to each person on earth. Stopping you from doing the master’s work by discussing what is saved, what is not being saved, what must I do to be saved, can I lose my status of being saved, what should I do about the people who are not saved?
It is like when I went to the Russian Orthodox church where the old Russian women would pull your arms down and tell each other ‘No, you are not to keel now, or why are you not keeling now, or the priest has it wrong, he is to not to say XWY now, A very hard crowd, who are full of courage but missed the point of worship, As the USMC says there is a right way, a wrong way and the Marine Corp way.
And there is a Saved way, and the rules are many and the path is varied and the confusion is great and for the saved the way is narrow, but with massive number of the saved, the traffic jam at the narrow gate is impassable, plus in an hour you have 144,000 Jehovah Witnesses coming with their oxen and wagons, and they are all wanting to come through.
Oy vey what troubles on the house. .
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Indeed, Tom. I am reminded of a joke told by my old parish priest of someone who died and went to Heaven. She was being shown round by St. Peter, and as they passed a door he asked her to be quiet. She asked why and he said: ‘It’s the Catholics, they think they are the only ones here’. 🙂 He, of course, was an Anglican, and I have heard the joke told the other way round 🙂
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Oy vey indeed. Very good Tom.
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This is an answer to Servus: Maybe God is using the saved to save the unsaved.
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Thank Steve, I am sure he will respond.
My own response would be that I am not seeing them making a good job of it.
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I t would be a lot easier if on our 21st birthday we got an exam with one question on it. If we get it right we go to heaven and if we get it wrong we go “poof” into a cloud of sulfurous smoke.
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Well, as someone who lives in prague, the joke would be: As the Pope and the Anglican Archbishop are being given the tour, at which they are shown their homes, very large very nice, but on the hill there is not a home, but a palace. The pope and the archbishop are in painful shock, and the guide says ‘Be not sad, there are those greater then you, therefore there are greater rewards, The palace on the hill is for the Prague tram drivers, for they have make the words, ‘My Jesus Christ’ appear on more lips then any pope or archbishop in history.
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🙂 – very good Tom LOL
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How does one account for Matthew 18:15-17? It seems like an awful precise and methodical approach for something that wouldn’t matter to those who are in the once saved, always saved camp. Was Christ prescribing this as busy-work to keep us occupied until the second coming? Seems to me not.
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Good point 🙂
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Matthew 18 ;15, and the rest of the new test, is for the saved. jesus is talking about how to handle disputes amongst the born again. Ill say it again;…the new testament is for the born again. The unsaved cant understand it. You might as well read the TV digest. Jesus blinds the eyes of the unsaved. Thats a promise. Im here to tell you. After i was born again, the bible came alive, and there was little i didnt get. What i didnt get, i got later down the road, as if by magic. The holy ghost teaches the born again. No you know whos in babylonian robes.
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Yours is a non-reply. There is no need to “win your brother back” if he is “once saved, always saved”. What happens if you do not win your brother back? Is he still saved or does that merely reveal that he was never saved? You are getting into dangerously Gnostic territory here–if you are not already well within it. (NB: Faith is not attainable by reason, but it never asks us to go against our reason either. Remember, Jesus Christ is the Logos (meaning, logic, reason) of God Incarnate.)
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Well, St bosco, I am glad you and Jesus has a personal relationship but in my world there are ditches to be dug, cows to be milked, chickens to be fed, tears to be dried, the hungry to be fed, the sick to be cared for, the wounded to be dressed and cared for with kindness, the grief filled to be held. I with all my heart I give you the joy, but for me I will take the work, and leave tomorrow to tomorrow and say.”Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”
Being saved for me is like being paid a paycheck, I have no interest in the paycheck, I want the work for the work’s sake, because my master has said it is good and because it is my duty. I do not seek Heaven nor fear Hell.
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That is Christianity, Tom. St. James would have put his arms around you – and I wish I could x 🙂
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