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In our discussions with Bosco we have penetrated into the outer part of the inaccessible depths of the greatest mystery of our Faith – the Trinity. The short series finished with a reminder from St. Gregory, with which we all agreed, that to try to get to the very heart of this mystery is not possible, and that pondering it too closely is to risk being dazzled as well as puzzled. But our forefathers in the Faith did not run away from this, even though they had the humility to know their limitations; it was too important to simply throw their hands in the air and walk off.
It was a clear from Scripture that there was a Father, a Son and a Holy Ghost; it was equally clear that there was One God; the mystery lay in how Three could be One. Here, the best minds of the fourth century strove to help their flocks – and us. Men like St. Basil and St. Gregory, as well as St. Athanasius and St. Cyril, were not academic theologians, they were pastors and men of God – they wanted to help stop the misreadings which were as common then as now. When Jesus says that he who has seen Him has seen the Father, He is not saying that He is the Father, He is saying that He and the Father are One – but how can that be?
The Greek word ‘hypostasis’ literally means ‘that which stands underneath something’; its Latin equivalent is subsistentia, or ‘subsistence’, or individual entity. It could also be rendered as ‘substance’ or substantia.
A very great deal of confusion arose during the third century from the Latin translation. The Greeks explained (as far as it could be done) the Godhead in terms of three hypostases within a single ousia – that is three subsistences within one nature. Unfortunately some of the Latins translated this as meaning three individual divine entities – that is three gods!
In Hebrews 1:3 we read about Jesus being the image of God’s person; Hebrews 3:14 directs us towards the personhood of Christ, where it stands simply as a terms for substance (Hebrews 11:11). The word was used to combat those who tried to claim that God was One person – there were, Origen argued, and others followed, three hypostases – Father, Son and Holy Spirit – in, as Athanasius argued – one nature or ousia.
It was St. Gregory of Nazianzus who showed that the word had two uses. In Trinitarian theology it denoted the Three-ness of the Godhead; in Christology – that is in writing and thinking about Christ Himself, it denoted the one-ness of Christ – His humanity was fully human, His divinity fully divine. It was St. Cyril of Alexandria who, during the Nestorian controversy, came up with the formula of ‘the single hypostasis of the Divine Word’; what did he mean?
He meant that in Christ the personal subject was the Divine Logos – the second hypostasis of the Trinity. The two natures – the Divine and the human, are brought together as a single hypostasis – there was no mixing of the two, they were united at the level of hypostasis.
No one is saying that any of these words explain the fullness of the mystery, and as Jabba has reminded us ‘Doctrine is made of *meaning*, it is not made of *words*’ However, we express ourselves and communicate in words, and so the problem for me here, is that we have to express ourselves in mere words – and carry that meaning if we can.
All Along the Watchtower 
Remember what I said sometime ago, “The meaning of your communication is the outcome you get….not necessarily the intention of the speaker.” When it got down to the nitty gritty I was told I was being too psychological.
Well here we are at the nitty gritty. Yes, words only having meaning that our experience gives them. So, we have to examine the three levels of experience. The surface structure…that which comes out of our mouths, the deep structure… the full and complete linguistic description of the experience and lastly the reference structure…the primary experience.
We can discard the reference structure as nobody can have the primary experience of another we can only empathize. So we’re left with the deep structure.
This discussion is now becoming more and more involved with meaning and to most of us confusing and at least to me tiresome. My suggestion is that both Jabba and Jess go off somewhere and resolve the deep structure and upon agreement or disagreement report back a precis of their findings so we can move on.
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The huge “additional” mystery that looms in my mind is the new mysterious revelation that God has taken upon Himself human nature without losing anything of His divine nature in Christ – possessing each nature in its fullness. What are the implications of such a revelation? In light of the Holy Trinity: where each of the 3 divine persons are God in His fullness, and cannot be separated – not in will and not in nature – begs the question of whether the nature of God should now be updated to include the added nature of man to the divine. All 3 persons are eternally present within each divine person though each may be acting in a specific and individual way – but they are eternally one. So is the nature of the person of the Holy Spirit and the Person of the Father of essentially the same dual nature that Christ possess in all its fullness? Is this in effect the opening of the door for man to enter into the divine mystery. The person of Chirst seems to bridge a gap which was heretofore closed and separated by an impossible chasm: how does a worm become a soaring eagle? The family of God seems somehow widened in way that makes it possible for mankind to enter in some small way the Godhead Who has been bridged by this incomprehensible mystery: that we can be adopted into the divine is a development that allows man the only possible answer to the mystery of our dignity in a way unimaginable by us but opening up the impenetrable by God’s generosity and love. What is it in man that warrants such a gift and such a singular grace? If contemplated upon in the quiet of our hearts, we see that this unwarranted bridge is foundational to everything that is held as Christian faith, hope and love and why they are needed to enter into a mystery that words will not describe but love will penetrate in a way that our finite minds will never understand. Is it any wonder that at the mention of Christ’s incarnation, we came to honor those words by either a genuflection or prostration (now usually by a bow of the head)? Is there anything that we can do to show our incredible wonder and awe at this unfathomable mystery?
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Consider the Resurrection, the mystery, who Resurrected whom?
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That too! It seems that the work of theology and the use of precise words is more the work of those who are trying to prevent the beginnings of heresy that end up far beyond the scope of what the jots and tittles may have originally implied. Important stuff but of little help, except in the correction of a wayward spirituality, to those who pray, meditate and contemplate the faith. For these persons, their response isn’t so much words but jaw-dropping awe and being absorbed in indescribable love for the gifts that are too deep for the average mind. How else to do we react to the most sublime mysteries of the universe. Theology is merely the handmaid of spirituality, not the other way around. When seen as such, the theologian, in the end declares as did St. Thomas Aquinas that it is all straw compared to the mysteries that had been shown him.
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Yes, those are wise words indeed. 🙂
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Servus, right on!
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Thank you David. I might add that who among us average people can speak of these mysteries without inadvertently stumbling into an apostasy or heresy. It is the purview of those assigned to such tasks, not tho the average Catholic trying to live out his faith. If this were not true, I think we will find that heaven is only populated by 10 or 15 extraordinary theologians of great intellect and the poor, unintelligent and uneducated masses would be lost forever: the same people Christ spent most of His time with. So the study of Sacred Theology is vastly important but as far as the average Catholic: recognizing that there is 1 Trinitarian God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit is probably adequate.
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I can see from Jabba’s strong belief that the correct understanding of the Trinity is at the core of the Catholic church. I am more interested how that the heresy has effected the church. As we all know that heresy effects are like ripples upon a pond, those that reenforce the ripples over time erode the banks first clouding the clear water then destroying the pond. How has this heresy effected the Roman/Anglican church, and the protestant, eastern church we see today, Jabba and Jessica, a lot not at all,?
The teaching of the faith to the body of the church after V.II is almost criminal, it has given to America at least a new age church, with a pick and chose theology.
I fear the protestant church because it is a church of mercy or God of Mercy, not a Church or God of first perfect judgement and then mercy, There must be judgement first, all expect perfect justice, without we are all cheated, our victims are cheated and the saints who kept their faith are cheated. If the God is a God of mercy alone, then for me that God is not worth my spit, and I will go to the devil as an honest man.
The soldier who have killed in fear and anger deserves to be given perfect justice and the millions of victims of crime, war, man made famine, political cleansing ; soldiers, men, women and children who have been shoveled into the earth as some sort of odorous filth deserve perfect justice also.
Some have said they are saved, by mercy, or by holding their mouth a certain way and saying a few magic words; I say where is the justice? Are the guards in the camps who do the above acts saved under mercy? Then where is the justice? That belief that we are saved is pure voo-doo and it was produced by a heresy. So heresy produces bad fruit and may take 500 years to ripen. I am interested what fruits you see from what you believe Jabba and if what he believes Jessica are of great importance or are there other heresies that effect us more?
Listen You both are above my paygrade, so give me justice and mercy.
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I often ponder the same things Tom. God is the God of Justice as well as the God of Mercy. It is just mind boggling to think that our God would say from the Holy Cross, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.” What then is divine Justice going to look like when God forgives Deicide and the torture of the Completely Innocent? VII has certainly created a Church full of people who no longer understand or practice the faith. Will their ignorance save them due to poor instruction and an overabundance of poor teaching? I can only hope that what Fr. Amorth calls the 8th Sacrament (Ignorance), will save their souls. As to God’s Judgment, who can say how it will play out. Perhaps as we begin to forgive those as we would have them forgive us, God will temper His perfect Justice by His Infinite Mercy. I hope that may be true for many of us.
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As do I, and Tom, i know what you mean when you say protestant (in fact I agree with you) but Jess and I and others here who closely mirror your view are by definition protestant. When you lump me with those, I feel that my faith is slighted. I’m pretty sure that is not what you mean to do, but it can be easy to misunderstand. I’m not upset at all, but others will use your point to attack me and those like me so I like to get it out in the open occasionally. 🙂
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Yes I heard it said, ”God would say from the Holy Cross, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.”
But will God, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit ”Forgive them Father, because they know what they do”.
Is there some souls so filthy that the blood of Christ can not cover the screams of the blood crying from the ground.
The beliefs of that I am saved, makes the sacrifice of the Lord and his passion unnecessary if you can only accept Jesus as your personal savior and say the sinner’s pray.
What would Victor Frankl say?
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I can’t speak to that Tom, I barely know the name. But I do know that while some prattle of being saved, the truth is that we believe because we believe, most of us have reasons that reach back over the years. God is the judge and I will not presume to understand it all. In my belief system works are required, real works. But works are an outgrowth of the Grace of the Lord which is our salvation, if I phrased that even close to correctly.
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I can see from Jabba’s strong belief that the correct understanding of the Trinity is at the core of the Catholic church. I am more interested how that the heresy has effected the church. As we all know that heresy effects are like ripples upon a pond, those that reenforce the ripples over time erode the banks first clouding the clear water then destroying the pond. How has this heresy effected the Roman/Anglican church, and the protestant, eastern church we see today, Jabba and Jessica, a lot not at all,?
Every schism in every Christian church is rooted in heresy.
The Filioque business is especially noteworthy — because it’s the only instance where both parties, the Catholic and Greek Orthodox, could be viewed as equally guilty of it — but this is because it concerns heresy in its original and primitive meaning of “choice”, rather than the meaning of the word in any other particular cases.
It is the only disagreement of its kind that the Catholic Church accepts as being part responsible for, and as *needing* active efforts from the Church towards its remedy.
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neenergyobserver – I do not know your church – but the church I know in America preach a God foreign to me. It is church where you are saved, completely covered be the blood of Christ, once saved alway saved. Where the God gives you money by taking money from others. That works are only preaching the Gospel, and praising the Lord. Altar calls and schism. A church of ‘call no man father’. A verse out of its place, to cover every need, to prove every point. Are you saved, well for me I hope not.
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Tom-I am aware of that church, my feelings to it our the same as yours. My church is the Lutheran church, and even in that, I am a traditionalist.
I thought that was the so-called church you referred too, and that was my point, Protestant can mean more Catholic than a lot of Catholic and it can mean that pseudo-church you have described, which I detest being lumped in with. Which is why this is merely a request to refrain lumping us all together..
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To me Protestant is short hand, your church founded by Luther is close and some of your belief are far. When I try to define Protestantism it is like wrestling with an octopus, a very fast and strong octopus, The church down the road will tell me they are the true church if they have been in business a week and the other churches are schism. You pictured in your mind what I see, and if your girlfriend is a red head and I am talking about a blond, then I am not talking about your girlfriend (okay, she could have dyed her hair) maybe there is a better example, it hard to use women as examples of anything, they are very versatile, non are the same.
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i agree, it’s very broad term. It’s actual definition is “not Catholic but more or less Christian”, which is really not an acceptable definition, and hasn’t been for a long while. Which is why I tend to identify as Lutheran rather than unsupported protestant. No harm, no foul, I hope. 🙂
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Thanks Tom. A difficult one to be sure, but I think you remind us of the difficulties of generalising. Indeed, in my own Church, some glory in the name ‘Protestant’ and some reject it.
I guess to some Catholics anyone who is not Catholic is a Protestant, except for the Orthodox, who don’t think the Catholics are Orthodox, at which the Catholics would protests (rightly) – if they did, would they be Protestant Catholics? 🙂
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It is hard, the Anglican church is both Catholic and Protestant, in some important ways the Anglicans mass is more Catholic then the Roman church (more beautiful by a long shot) I guess I should separate by do you believe in abortion, do you believe in the real presence, do you believe that the path to salvation is a journey of a life time, do you believe you are here to mold your soul to make it fit to stand before God, and that it is part of God’s plan that you must humble yourself and feed the hungry cloth the naked,etc..We are here to change ourselves by grace and our own free will, we walk in the steps of Christ. This is done by charity and that means love, a simple word, the homeless does not need money, they need someone to treat them as our neighbor. Government have no soul to save. All acts are personal, all acts are recorded by God and God will judge.
Hmm I guess I will like Adam rename the theology I see with a different name, ”The Bubble church of the yellow rubber ducky”.
”No, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who …
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I believe all those things Tom – and that your presence here is a blessing 🙂
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Tom, generally speaking our Church is very good at proclaiming saints but notice that the Church in its entire 2000 years has refrained from putting even 1 person (including Judas) in hell. That does not mean that hell isn’t real and that there are not people destined to go there, but it does open the possibilities that the Church has always recognized: the state of the heart and mind of the person at the moment of death. That is impossible to know and we therefore feel frightfully inadequate as a Church to proclaim them so. There are no tests for those that go to hell such as a saint’s miracle before and miracle after death to receive God’s decision from the supernatural court. All that I know is that we know that many men have done things in this life to deserve hell and with 1 sin of pride Satan and the other Fallen Angels have found themselves in that world made for them. St. Faustina (though a private revelation which no one is obliged to believe) heard Christ tell her that at the very moment of death, angels come and administer the gospel and therefore, even for these, God’s mercy is extended and they themselves relegate their souls to heaven and to hell. The only unforgivable sin as we learn from Scripture is against the Holy Spirit (the Love and Mercy) of God and His ability to forgive sin, no matter what it is. That is far beyond the scope of any mercy we would apply to some of the barbaric behaviour of individuals we have witnessed in this life. But that is the understanding we have of the God of Love and the God of Mercy. So how do we stand a chance of knowing with impeccable certainty that so-and-so is in hell? We simply can’t. All we know is that some will not recant of their sins and will despise God and His Mercy right to the end. But who are they?
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That is such a beautiful comment my friend that it ought to be a blog post in its own right – so perfect, and so perfectly expressed – thank you 🙂
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Thank you Jessica. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that no one puts us in hell. We do that ourselves. It is also the ultimate expression of why Catholics mainain a need for a state of Purgatory where God’s Justice will purify those who still must pay the price for their sins. But the good news is that after they have paid Just Judge the wage for their sin, they will be freed. So even in Purgatory these poor souls have joy in their sufferings and look forward to the day that they too will join the saints in heaven.
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Yes, that is the perfect expression of what I have always believed. You really ought to think about putting these together as a blog post 🙂
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I think they are already there Jess, maybe spread out in different posts. Perhaps I will try to gather then all up and do it. If for not other reason than to please a very pleasing lady! 🙂
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Yes, I think they are there, but gathered in one post, they would be readily accessible. So kind of you to say such nice things – I am most grateful, yet again, for your help 🙂
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As always, you are most welcome. You know I love this site and all the wonderful ideas that get expressed here. So thanks to you as well. 🙂
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That is so kind my friend – it is the quality of my friends like you which make this place what it is 🙂
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Well, my friend, your comments are one of the things which makes this place what it is – and I am grateful to you all xx 🙂
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I agree, SF, beautifully said. Thank You, my friend. 🙂
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I have never seen this more perfectly expressed.
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Nor have I.
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Thank you neo and Jess, but it is simply the teaching of the Catholic Church that I try to teach to those in my classes. It is a rather beautiful theology that we embrace and a God that is far more benevolent and Good that we can ever realize.
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Well, it is perfectly expressed – and just what my beloved St. Isaac wrote.
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That is true but that still leaves the beauty of your phrasing my friend. i have never read it done so well.
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Gratias Deo! Sometimes even I get inspired. Thanks. 🙂
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As you inspire us! 🙂
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And vice versa my friend. 🙂
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And that, I think, my friend, is nothing less than a manifestation of the Grace of God. 🙂
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Amen 🙂
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and Amen 🙂
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Yes, as He takes us broken instruments and finds some way to write something of value with them. Amazing how He does what He does, is it not! 🙂
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It is indeed – and it is inspiring too 🙂
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It is indeed, it is indeed. 🙂
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I have no problem with what you said,(including Judas in hell). The church is a hospital not a court. Judgement belongs to God, but what I do have a problem with is those who tell me they know the mind of God, They know who is saved and who is not. I have a problem with those who make God into their image. Some people I have known if they claim they are saved, then I am going to Hell a’singing. For me purgatory is necessary. Is Recanting of their sins enough, is saying to God I am sorry, when God says go to your brother first.. If you first go to God in death, where is you brother. I am horrified by recanting of a sin of putting women and children into the ground is enough if in his sincerity and his sorrow is true. That does not work for me. I hope God is a God, who is too is a mensch a God of integrity.
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You are right, Tom. God alone decides who us saved and who is not. We know what we must do, and that takes us everything we have – and His Grace.
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I cannot imagine anyone being disappointed in God or His judgment. Isn’t the disappointment by Satan caused by His Pride one of the reasons given for his Fall? I totally agree with you Tom, that those who profess a belief in “once saved always saved” are expressing what our Church calls a sin of presumption. We can presume nothing. We can only hope in everything, pray for everyone, and express our love for His marvelous Love, Mercy, and Justice. In other words, we are all trying to be a bit more like Christ each day of our lives. Relying more on Him and knowing that He asked us to pray for one another: especially the sinners. The good people are easy to pray for; its the reprobates we have a hard time with.
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Indeed, my friend, so true.
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I was going to tell you a true story, but I will wait.
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We will all look forward to it, Tom.
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Jess, to go slightly off topic for a moment, although it is related especially in regards to words. I doubt you have had a chance but a friend of mine has referred quite affirmatively to our series on the commonality of our churches. You should have a link back as well but the link is here since many of us were involved:
http://mtsweat.com/2012/09/11/friday-night-smack-down-in-the-pews/
And on the main point, I absolutely agree with Tom that our God is a God of Justice as well as mercy, which many forget.
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Thank you my dear friend 🙂
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You are very welcome, and I note with gladness that this is the second time that I know of, that this series which we all worked so very, very hard has been referenced elsewhere. 🙂
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That is nice to know. We are working ourselves here, but I hope we are showing how Christians can try to work these things through in love and charity. 🙂
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Yes, I believe it having an effect, although we will most likely never know how far the ripples spread, we have indeed tossed a stone into the pond. 🙂
And I do not that the work carried on her is certainly powered by Faith, Love, and Charity.
It makes for a very beautiful site. 🙂
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Well, the bread is cast on the water – so martini time seems due 🙂
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Indeed, after all, it’s after 5 in Newfoundland. Bars Open 🙂
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Well, there is that song I like – 5 o’clock somewhere?
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I’ll have to admit, there’s something likable about Jimmy Buffet’s work.
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🙂 we know the answer to the question of what would he do !
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Indeed we do, a wise man he is! 🙂
You good with a Martini or do we have to think of something with an umbrella for you? 🙂
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No, I was properly brought up, a martini will do me nicely 🙂
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I thought so, you’re decidedly our kind of girl. 🙂
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Why thank you sir, and sir! Our Nebraskan vacation’s gonna start right here 🙂
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How wonderful, all welcome, little hard to find bartenders that know how to make martinis properly, but I’ve trained some and at least we can get decent beer now!!! 🙂
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If the phone’s for me, tell them I just sailed away 🙂
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Will do, it’ll be a great pleasure 🙂
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I just found it on YouTube – made me feel very happy 🙂
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You may be the best multi-tasker it has ever been my confused pleasure to know, or love. How do you do this, neither SF nor I or even us together can keep up to you 🙂
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*blush* it is probably that woman thing about do three things at once, none of them well! That, or that I am on the iPad and have the laptop playing too:) xx
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The things i come in contact with, you do superlatively, so I can project that to be true for all things. Two machines at a time would be helpful however. 🙂 xx
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Indeed – and your kindness helps me more than I can say 🙂 xx
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glad to help 🙂 xx
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A very nice site, indeed! And now to continue the quest for the perfect martini. 🙂
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Hah, back to the important things, eh! 🙂
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Put my answer in the wrong place again. I get very confused. I hope God can fix that someday. Anyway to repeat myself, “you betcha.”
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🙂
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I linked to the site, I hope when they see the comments on this site on the Trinity that they do see good hardball not softball but it still is a game among friends. Got to go we in czech have different high and low pressure areas from russian/baltic and france and germany, and we lose windows here. I have to go put my shoulder against a couple now since we have vertical rain, and sometimes hail the size of golf balls, hail 6 windows 0.
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We do that indeed, we are not for the faint of heart. Good luck with the weather, hail I know about out here on the plains-goes good with the tornadoes. Be careful, my friend. 🙂
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Goodness me Tom, stay safe my friend x
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To quote a friend of mine, “you betcha.” 🙂
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Ha, I like your friend! 🙂
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I knew you would. 🙂
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Pretty, smart, strong, a hunter, and Conservative (well I repeat myself), what’s not to like? 🙂
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** blushes** and says thank you 🙂 xx
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Hey, SF, I certainly think that description fits our hostess very well but, well, I thought you were talking about an Alaskan not a Brit. “-) xx
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🙂 Right again! You’re a pretty smart fellow. 🙂
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🙂 xx
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Learning from the best, don’t you know. 🙂
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