My blogfriend, ‘crossingthebosphorus’ is running a fascinating series about his own religious tradition – Methodism. One of the many reasons I find it fascinating is that he is finding on his own doorstep some of the things he has been looking for in other traditions. It is a reminder to those of us who are nomadic that we should search in our own backyard before we wander further afield; but the grass elsewhere is notoriously greener than at home.
It raised in my mind the question of how much any of us know about our own tradition, which, in turn, raised the issue of how we learn what we learn about our Faith.
When my co-author was a child it was, he tells me, simple enough. At Sunday school he was taught the rudiments of Christianity; at school this was reinforced by compulsory assembly and by Religious Education lessons; at Church it was through the medium of sermons. Even as I was wondering quite how comprehensive that was, I found myself contrasting it with my own experiences.
I didn’t really go to Sunday school with any regularity; but that was more often than most of my contemporaries. Assembly at school was more often ‘inter-faith’ stuff, and whilst I learned what Eid was, I don’t think I learned a thing about the Pentecost; the same was true for religious education lessons; and the less said about sermons at church, well, the better. So, across two generations in the UK, we went from something which might be thought barely adequate to something which was clearly inadequate.
My own church runs the ‘Alpha programme’, which manages the remarkable feat of not mentioning Jesus on its front page; clearly its organisers think that would be off-putting although, to be fair, they make up for it later in the course – and at least they are trying. I looked at my local Catholic course for adults, and by comparison ‘Alpha’ looks like a degree course.
If our churches are not passing on their own traditions, and if fewer children are staying in the church into which they were baptised, then what does the future hold for Christianity? What are churches there for? If they are simply recycling Christians, going from one tradition to another until they find one they feel is authentic and fits them, then the work of evangelisation will dwindle. Where once Christians went out from the West to bring the Good News to the world, now they have difficulty bringing it to each other.
And yet, and yet, we should remember that once, an explosion in an upper room in Jerusalem would have wiped out most of the Christians in the world. The sense of sin which drives so many to search for something or someone to relieve it, has not vanished, despite all the modern attempts to persuade us that sin is simply a bad name for things we like a lot and know we shouldn’t. So what is needed?
The answer is provided by my friend, Servus Fidelis who reproduces a truly excellent argument about how to win the war against Satan; it is provided by crossingthebosphorus who explores what unites his tradition with others; it is provided by all of us if we do one thing – follow Christ and attempt to live as He would have us. We are, all of us, the Church, and if we set an example none would follow, then not all the courses invented by clever people will succeed.
crossingthebosporus said:
I think you’re right that it’s a failure of religious education (a failure of passing on what was handed to us) that has had such a detrimental effect on the churches. I shouldn’t have to go get a master’s degree from seminary to finally learn something about my own tradition (and even then it is somewhat lacking and I have to be committed to studying it even further!)
Perhaps rather than looking at how green the grass is on the other side, I should be investing my efforts in the tradition where I am situated and leave the possibility of “crossing over” up to God. In other words, leave the door open and see if God pushes me through it, but don’t force things through impatience…
Oh, and I looked at the Alpha program a while back. A few friends and I analyzed the beginning of it in seminary. The funny thing was, after every video session I’d usually say something like “Here’s where I disagree…” It certainly made for interesting discussions!
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JessicaHof said:
You know, I think there’s an awful lot in that. It is easy to think that by leaving one’s own tradition one will find something better, but how well do we know how own tradition anyway? How far is it that in looking into something new we actually find much that is already there in the tradition about which we know less than we would have if we’d been properly catechised?
If God wants us somewhere, we can be sure we’ll get there if we remain open and listening.
I’ve asked Chalcedon to post some material from Newman’s Anglican days – partly to see if I can notice the difference 🙂
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crossingthebosporus said:
Yes, through my reading of Bishop Willimon I’m thinking that perhaps the best place for me right now is right where I am. And if Methodism in practice doesn’t live up to what Methodism should be, that’s hardly a reason to stop being Methodist. After all, every church has the experience of not living up to the ideal they proclaim.
“Look before you leap” should be balanced with “the one who hesitates is lost.” Where that balance lies is perhaps unique to the individual.
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, I think that is right. We should not rush ourselves, and quite often that is where the pressure comes from – ourselves.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Your last paragraph suggests to me that as long as we follow Christ then one religion is as good as another.
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JessicaHof said:
I hope not, David, it is more by way of a lead in to what is to follow tomorrow 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Well, i re-read it and that’s what I get from, “it is provided by crossingthebosphorus who explores what unites his tradition with others; it is provided by all of us if we do one thing – follow Christ and attempt to live as He would have us. We are, all of us, the Church,”
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JessicaHof said:
Well, I don’t think that Orthodoxy, or Methodism, or Anglicanism are a ‘different religion’. The Vatican itself recognises Orthodox orders and sacraments as ‘valid’, although it does not take that view of Anglicanism or Methodism.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
I guess I’m confused if Orthodoxy, Methodism and Anglicanism aren’t “different religions” how do you classify them?
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JessicaHof said:
They are all Christians, David, Hinduism and Islam are different religions to Christianity, Orthodoxy is not. Your own Church recognises it as a legitimate Church, so ow can it be another religion?
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
So I should have said Faiths. So again I say that your comments suggest that since we are all Christians all Christian Faiths are equal.
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JessicaHof said:
The NIcene Creed was the standard of orthodoxy for the Church, and was agreed as such. Those Churches which adhere to it confess the historic Christian Faith. That is a bit different from what ‘Dominus Iesus’ says, but not as different as thinking that other Christians do not confess Christianity.
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servusfidelis said:
Jess, I have posted an essay from Bishop Sheen on my site that ties into this and plan on posting another later today by Sheen on the subject of Scandal. Both have relevance to what has been getting discussed by us recently.
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JessicaHof said:
That’s a coincidence I like – I am literally just reading it 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Sheen makes the point that all religions are no longer truly arguing about essentials anymore like the creeds etc. Instead, our civilization is itself suffering from its focus which is much more concerned with the inconsequential. He also posits that in order to get civilization back to talking about things that are lofty and sublime we need to find these thoughts in our quiet moments of contemplation and prayer before we carry these ideas out to our neighbors. We won’t get to the answers unless we recover the art of controversial argument and accept or reject arguments based on rational thought. If we simply hold to a position from emotional or hereditary reasons, then no minds are changed and no argument destroyed. I think we are always amazed at the lack of the “back and forth” exchanges that took place in years gone by. Do many people have the integrity of a John Henry Newman today to admit defeat and boldly switch sides. That was definitely a heroic move, even for his day.
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JessicaHof said:
He was indeed. Here, I am glad to say, we have often discussed the Creeds and doctrine, not with a view to saying it does not matter, but quite the opposite 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Much to your credit! 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
Then you have constructs like the united Church of Christ, 4 (or more) completely different traditions, ranging from near Lutheran Church MS yo Rev. Wright liberation theology, something for everyone including race warriors.
That makes makes even my current ELCA, which itself has forgotten a lot of its tradition, look like a traditional church with a real history and doctrine. That could be a bit unfair, ELCA has been badly infected by whatever it is that infected the American Episcopalian church-Anything to get people in the pews, we do Christianity later after a few choruses of Kum ba Yah.
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, that’s part of the problem, I suspect, that if we remember our traditions we might actually discover we hold much in common. That does not mean we have to agree on everything, but it does mean we’ll know where the real disagreements are.
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neenergyobserver said:
Yes, i agree with that. And its no wonder we can’t think, I’m on SF’s Sheen as we speak and he’s exactly correct. I haven’t read any of him in 20 years, I can see why liberal protestants berated him so, to a lot of them, thinking was the only heresy, feeling is all.
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JessicaHof said:
It’s very important, as SF has pointed out so well and so often, that we give reasons for the hope that is in us, and Sheen is spot on in saying we need to argue intellectually and not emotionally. 🙂
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neenergyobserver said:
To extend a bit.
Yes, that is a lot of the problem in protestantism, we do not know what we believe-beyond the Nicaean and Apostles Creeds, there is basically no education. There i some (usually poorly attended) bible study but absolutely nothing on the early church or why the Reformation happened. Nothing. So for the most part, our churches can’t defend themselves from anything because they don’t know what they believe. Ma
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servusfidelis said:
I know as a Protestant I never even knew what an early father was. I only knew one father, that was my dad!
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JessicaHof said:
That’s true for many, my friend. Yet they are the inheritance of every Christian, and reading them can be a powerful force for good. 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
And the answer to many a question and doubt that protestantism has visited on the Catholic Church.
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JessicaHof said:
They do so.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
I agree with your summery. Another way of looking at it is that Sheen was longing for the day when people saw and argued from “difference” rather than nodding in agreement with, “sameness.”
Yes, Newman’s switch was especially heroic for those days.
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JessicaHof said:
It was this, from ‘Dominus Iesus’ I had in mind, David:
‘ 77. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.’
So the issue of ‘differences’ is not quite as straightforward as one might think.
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servusfidelis said:
It always comes back to the issue of authority. Who has the authority to teach, infallibly the teachings of Christ? It can’t be the Bible or we wouldn’t have any churches as we never saw one until the 400’s. So someone has to give a church her authority or a person their authority. The old basic argument is and should always be in my mind: Show me where and from who did you get your commission? If you cannot show it or prove it in some manner, you have lost your credibility.
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JessicaHof said:
Indeed, my friend. The Orthodox will show those credentials, as will the Anglicans. The Catholic Church accepts the former but not the latter. But then since the Anglicans don’t accept that Rome has the authority to ,make such a decision, that gets into deep water. 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Precisely where sheen says we should go. We need to get out of the shallow end and swim in the deep water.
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JessicaHof said:
We do so.
This is a problem in all Churches. I have found that many of the liberal Catholics in these parts have no real idea of their own tradition either, which is why they think it can easily be discarded.
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servusfidelis said:
Much to our shame and it is scandalous — which Sheen will address in my next post. 🙂
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JessicaHof said:
Looking forward to that my friend 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Indeed, when it meant losing pretty much everything he had known; church, friends, family. That takes character which is something we see too little of these days.
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JessicaHof said:
Indeed, and it is not as though the Catholic Church treated him very well, either. It clearly had no idea what to do with him, and it was only at the very end of his life that it made him a Cardinal. But for Newman none of that mattered – what mattered was being where he knew God was.
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st bosco said:
There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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st bosco said:
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
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JessicaHof said:
Alternatively, Bosco, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.’ Also consider Galatians 1:7 – and also 3 John 1:10.
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st bosco said:
Sister Jess, those traditions are…charity, patience, love, spreading the word. That was the tradition of the first christians.
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JessicaHof said:
But Bosco, there is nothing specifically Christian about those traditions, so what makes you think they are what he is talking about here, and how do they fit with Galatians and St. John?
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st bosco said:
PS, notice how Jesus said..to keep their OWN tradition….not his, which is love your neighbor. Sorry, the traditions of the christians werent graven images and babylonian holymen robes and golden cups
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JessicaHof said:
But Bosco, what makes you think those are the traditions Jesus is talking about?
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st bosco said:
Sister Jess, im open. You seem to more open and honest than most. Can you tell me what you believe these tradition would be? No religious person has ever bothered to tell me what they are. They just say my idea is wrong. Thanks in advance…your brother Bosco
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you Bosco. People shouldn’t just say you are wrong, that’s not very fair, or helpful; I hate it when people do that to me, and I’m sorry they do it to you.
It would be a bit long for a comment here, but let me write a post on it for you tomorrow – deal? 🙂
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JabbaPapa said:
Jess, sorry, but bozo actually is wrong — not just religiously, but philosophically, ethically, historically, factually, and biblically.
“babylonian fish hats” indeed !!!!
He spreads lies about the Faith, and claims these lies as being true.
Relativism is a heresy, not dogma.
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JessicaHof said:
Indeed, Jabba, but simply telling him is not working – nor, of course, may engaging, but I’m up for trying it 🙂
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JabbaPapa said:
oooh yeah, “Sorry, the traditions of the christians werent graven images and babylonian holymen robes and golden cups” positively *oozes* politeness, doesn’t it !!!
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JessicaHof said:
Indeed – but it was his later request that was 🙂
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JabbaPapa said:
poop, misplaced …
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kathleen said:
That Bosco (bozo) should be offended by simply being told he is ‘wrong’…… when he has done nothing but hurl constant insults, mockery and a stream of utter rubbish and lies towards Catholics, is just an absolute SCREAM! 😆
Prime example of ‘pot calling kettle black’.
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JessicaHof said:
For sure Kathleen, but I have often noticed, as you must have, that it is those who dish it out most freely who won’t take it from others.
I shall take him at his word, and let us see what he, and others, make of the next post 🙂
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JabbaPapa said:
encouragement of heresy is ill-advised, and pretty much sinful
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JessicaHof said:
I think we want to do the opposite Jabba, don’t we? Bosco has politely asked me a question, so I feel bound to answer as best I can. I’ll welcome all help tomorrow 🙂
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bozoboy87 said:
Kathleen my friend….mockery and insults? What i say are facts. They seem to bother some folks. lets take an example; google or how ever you do it, the babylonian priests. Find the acheological drawings and carvings in stone. You will see the same fish hats the catholic popes and bishops wear now, and even that stip that hangs down in the back, and even the staff they hold. This is common knowledge. Some in here know that but wont step up to the plate to confirm what i say. Doesnt the catholic priest turn his back to the crowd and say some incantations to bring god down from heaven? Is this wrong? Im sure some do it facing the crowd, but its the same. Herd god into his golden cage. am i wrong? Please tell me im wrong. Dont we see catholics on their knees befor graven images? Please tell me in wrong. Catholics just dont like hearing it from me. Tomorrow, the ones calling me names will be at their local roman temple on their face befor some statue of some human. Aint that right? Im waiting to see what sister Jess comes up with as tradition. I hear catholics banter that word around alot but no one says what these traditions are that the first apostles passed down. Apostles creed? There was no creed. Christianity was against the law in rome at that time.Plus, the first and next generation christians were Jews. They didnt stop being jews. Jesus is King of the Jews. Peter wasnt some catholic pope, he was a Jew.
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JabbaPapa said:
“facts” my sister Muriel …
Here are the facts : it is baptism that makes a Christian, not any of your strange personal weird notions.
But you have vilified it, calling it “magic words and a splash of water”.
Your ideas are pagan.
I have no idea, Jess, why you are letting this individual run loose on your blog, with his ludicrous and monomaniacal obsessions that run are opposite to anything that any Christian must believe.
Bozo is an internet troll.
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kathleen said:
So true Jess. Look forward to your post, which I’m sure will be good. 😉
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JessicaHof said:
I’ll do my best – and appreciate any help anyone offers by way of correction 🙂
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servusfidelis said:
Jess, just wanted to let you know that Sheen essay 2 is up and may be grist for your post tomorrow.
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JessicaHof said:
Thank you my friend, just seen it in the ‘reader’ tab and off there 🙂
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kathleen said:
“the grass elsewhere is notoriously greener than at home.”
Truthfully Jess, that has never ever been so with me. For me the Catholic Church fulfills all my hopes and desires; She is the Bride of Christ, my Mother, the ‘Fold’ of the Good Shepherd, Teacher, Guide, Bridge to Heaven, Home, and quite simply the treasure house of the full means of Salvation.
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JessicaHof said:
I think that is so often the case for many, and I rather envy them. Of course, I am in an odd position, since my local Catholics have made it plain enough that someone who venerates Our Lady and wishes to obey the Pope is not terribly welcome!
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kathleen said:
Yes, I remember you told us that not long ago, and I find this really upsetting. How can they say that about Our Lady? She is our Mother, given to us by Jesus from the Cross, and part of our Catholic Tradition from the earliest history of the Church.
I shun more liberally-orientated parishes, but even in the ones I’ve come across, I’ve never known any Catholic to not ‘venerate’ Mary. Who are these people? This is such an un-Catholic way of thinking. Perhaps you should get in touch with the local Catholic bishop and let him know this Jess.
You are so much ‘a Catholic at heart’ – I’d wage a guess, far better than these clearly shaky Catholics,in this clearly extremely liberal parish.
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JessicaHof said:
There is no bishop at the moment. I could write to the administrator, but, of course, it would not change the local reality, which is very sad.
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kathleen said:
And not wishing to ‘obey the Pope’ is blatantly heretical!
This was the beginning of all the Protestant churches…… (though many of them have held onto lots that was good.) Looks like this parish is going that way 😦
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JessicaHof said:
It is, I am told, very liberal. That one of the leading lights is a former monk tells its own story. Still, I take it as a test, and I pray my Rosary daily for the strength to persevere.
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
Jess, I think that he’s still a monk, though serving as a semi-permanent locum tenens for a vacant parish priest position, that is unless you know something that I don’t.
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JessicaHof said:
This is not the same person David. The one you mean is indeed still a monk – so you see how bad it is?
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
The one that was once a monk was he from the same place as the one I referenced?
BTW i hope you enjoy the video I sent you by email. It might be fun to put it on your blog?
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JessicaHof said:
Yes, I think so. Still, they’ll neither of them be around much longer. I don’t actually blame them, they’re part of a wider problem. They are not actually saying I can’t convert – just making it clear I won’t like it! Well, I am forty years younger than them:)
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
As I always tell my friends that still have MDs that don’t believe in Alternative Medicine,”Punch them in the heart every morning…LOL!
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JessicaHof said:
Ha! Ha! I like that – oh, and I loved the video too – thank you 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
So put it on your blog…that ought to liven things up and not be so academic but more practical.
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JessicaHof said:
I’ll look up how to do it – haven’t tried that yet – so bear with me 🙂
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David B. Monier-Williams said:
I think Jabba did it a while back,maybe he can help.
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JessicaHof said:
I’ll look up the instructions in the morning 🙂
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Tom Mcewen said:
Jessica said ”since my local Catholics have made it plain enough that someone who venerates Our Lady and wishes to obey the Pope is not terribly welcome!”
I am appalled at or more scandalized by these acts. Eva is the mother of the dead, and Mary is mother of the living. She should be honored as our mother given to us by Jesus. But more importantly she is our neighbor as stated in Christ’s commandment to us. For shame, for shame to treat her as a stranger and cast her out of the church. If I must follow, I will follow the Pope, him I trust, in the bad times and the good times.
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JessicaHof said:
I am not concerned Tom. It was unpleasant at the time, but the more time I spend praying my Rosary, the more it seems to me that this is simply a test, and it is one which, with her help, I hope to pass through. 🙂
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