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It was, as so often, St. Paul, who told the first Christians what I have termed ‘the essentials’: For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
This was what my blogfriend, Laura, at Catholic Cravings wrote: ‘it’s so important to focus on the essentials: Jesus Christ and Him incarnate, crucified & risen again!’ It was also a point made by our new pilgrim, Bosco, in his own characteristic way:
getting closer and what not are the words of someone who doesnt know the Lord. Once you are born again, you dont need to get closer. You are there. You just follow the shepherd. No religion or men in robes
Which is a not uncommon view, but as Jabba immediately pointed out, some translations of the Bible are not terribly good, and even learned scholars can argue over the details, as they can over points of doctrine, and before we know where we are, we have lost that very spirit in which we embarked on our pilgrimage, as some will find frustration where others find a necessary halt to take proper bearings.
Another member of our community, crossingthebosphorus (check out the lovely new format if you are familiar with him, and go there anyway if you aren’t, you’ll love him) has described this as the search for ‘authenticity’, which is accompanied by a need for ‘certainty’. For Bosco these things are provided by his personal experience, as indeed has, at some level, to be true of us all. But what happens when that purely personal experience differs so markedly from that of others? If one is so convinced that one’s own experience is the only right one, you can end up almost in a church of one, and regard only yourself and those who think like you are ‘saved’. That however is to ignore the history of the Faith, and to dismiss the experiences of many millions of Christians across nearly two thousand years and six Continents. It is also to miss my friend’s third point – which is that Christianity is not homogenous.
From the beginning we see a tendency to fissure, as St. Paul noted with disapproval in his first letter to the Corinthians:
11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Servus Fidelis made a similar point yesterday:
Can we join together without taking into account all the red herrings that society, politics and ideologies cram us into? I think that is challenge, not only in personal spirituality but in coming together to face our common enemy which is division, concupiscence and the rest of the factors that the secular world uses to divide and conquer.
Of course, the fact he makes that point and we are having this discussion, suggests that thus far the answer in that we cannot. And yet, crossingthebosphorus points us in the right direction towards heterogeneity. Any church that has lasted more than a couple of decades, and has in it people of more than a single ethnic group, finds ways of accommodating differences, tolerating them, and sustaining unity. To leave today’s last word to my dear friend Neo:
From what I see here, it’s mostly about respect. If we can respect each other (and our traditions) I see no reason we can’t. here certainly, and in the world, maybe.
His post today says so well what needs saying on this.
If we respect, we love, and if we love, we walk that extra mile or so in fellowship. And from that, we learn more about each other and begin to discern that we all confess ‘Christ, and Him crucified’.
OK, I’ll get things going. I think we need to make a distinction of how we assimilate people in the faith. Jess, you were quite right that to allow people to become their own church by deciding for themselves what they believe and how they themselves interpret scriptures is not Christian at all. Our original Church began making concessions to peoples in other lands almost immediately, taking pagan feasts and turning them into days of worship, accepting the customs of other persons but never letting go of the teachings that are the essence of the Church. Those types of accommodations have served us well, giving a distinguishing mark on Catholics in many foreign lands but all holding to the same doctrine and answering to the same authority.
The very first division occurred with the apostles over circumcision. However, it was brought before the 1st “undeclared” council of the Church. There Paul opposed James and the Judaizers and soundly rebuked Peter for his waffling on the issue of circumcision. It was then decided that Paul was right and Peter then declared it so. James and his merry band did not run off as other schismatics have done such as Luther or Calvin. They accepted the decision of the Council and became, once again, integrated into the Church because the authority told them to. Without authority, the Church would have been done for before we wrote the book of Acts.
Ever since, that is the way the Church has addressed disputes. The only problem is that over the last 2000 years many have not accepted the authority of Peter or the Councils and decided to go it alone. There continuity of teaching is continually being degraded until in some churches it is unrecognizable from the original faith.
For instance, the issue of contraception was universally, all protestant denominations included, considered a serious sin. In the 1930’s the Anglican church relented and then the dominoes began to fall. Now we are left with but 1 Church that is in agreement with scripture, the Didache, and the Early Church Fathers and our Tradition. If that type of church continues over the centuries, then I suppose that no one can even guess what the church will teach 2000 years from now.
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And I’ll go second saying that I agree with all you say.
Although I will note that it would have been difficult for Luther to return to the fold after he was excommunicated, his points were valid, many were corrected in the counter-reformation but the damage was done. Perhaps both sides needed to talk in council with a better will but, it is what it is.
That is one of the lesson’s Jess is teaching here be quick to support and slow to condemns if the heart is in the right place. It really is about the Risen Christ.
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Indeed it is. However, Luther was invited to Rome to air his grievances and have an audience with the Pope but rebuffed the offer. So I am not so sure that Luther was a man of ‘good will’ when it came to working out the items he tacked on the door.
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He was difficult to be sure, I’m reading a biography of him now but, I’m not to that part and just don’t know. I do know when he was in Rome earlier he was appalled at the corruption (of every kind) in the church there.
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Indeed – which shows the importance of all sides being slow to condemn and swift to support – I think?
The missing element in our discussion so far is Satan. I believe what St. Peter says and that he is prowling round seeking whom he might destroy, and yes, he will fix on the Godly if he can, and he will tempt them to go astray – that is us when we get prideful and angry, perhaps?
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Yes, I think that is right, and do think that is one of the many lessons this Pope and his predecessor teaches us. He seems willing to go many extra miles, for example, with the SFFX, and however vexing the latter may be (good job I’m not Pope!), he never loses sight of the goal of unity – and he is indeed, quick to support and slow to condemn. I think him a very great man of God.
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I like and respect him greatly as well. A fit leader for us all.
I like your construct the other day, Patriarch of the West, a trusted guide for us all.
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I do really wonder if that is not part of the answer? In a way it has to be, whatever anyone says, we can’t ever ignore the largest Church in the world – or its leader.
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Yes, the excommunications associated with the SPPX were lifted and I think our Pope recognizes the gifts of faithfully living the teachings of our faith alive and well in them. I’m thinking that he is looking for their help in the revitalization of the Church. Just like some of the best apologists for the faith these days are those who are converts from other faiths, the same will be true of thse men and women as well.
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Yes, that seems to be the case, and he provides, in the way he goes about his vocation, the most wonderful example of true Christian patience and humility, whilst still holding true authority.
He and the Blessed John Paul have done much to open the eyes of many non-Catholics.
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@ neenergyobserver
I hope you are reading a Catholic historian on Luther such as Hillaire Belloc. 🙂
It is the sad truth that few historical writings have survived from the Reformation due to the political climate that became the norm in those countries that fell to the new religions. To be sure, there is a lot we don’t know, because of the prejudices that abounded and survive to this day.
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I’m not sure of the affiliation, your certainly right sources are difficult to find. This one is from the early thirties, I’m currently not far into his time in Monastery and his first mass. I am of course, as always trying to catch bias on the part of the author, so far it seems reasonably balanced.
It helps quite a bit on his background and the environment of Germany at the time as well, which is something I know little about. So, we’ll see.
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Be interesting to see what you find as you get further in. My impression is that there was a great deal of stubborn pride on both sides, as well as politician machinations.
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That’s my impression also. So far what has surprised me is how much of paganism still existed in the lower classes of society and Luther was basically peasant stock.
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Yes, it makes you wonder how well people were really catechised even back then?
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Catechised, not so much but, they were very religious, the church maintained a tension on them it seems. They balance the fear of Hell, the hope of heaven, and the reduction of torment through indulgences (not always, or even mostly monetary, which I didn’t know). It’s interesting, and far outside our experience.
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Yes, you wonder really how much even the average priest really knew?
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Working from what I’ve read of English history here so it may not really apply; the regular clergy, not much; the secular clergy, like Luther, more, but the education was designed to fit a man for all the learned careers, and the novitiate helped obviously.
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Yes, I should have thought so. But raises interesting thoughts I think 🙂
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Indeed so. 🙂
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That’s a powerful argument my friend, with which, of course, I find myself in agreement.
It does seem to me about authority – at both ends of the scale. We tend to talk about how authority is received (because it is often not) but we might also want to think about how it is exercised.
One of the things about this Pope and his predecessor is that they have exercised authority as ‘servants’. They have spoken with sureness, but also humility – and they have listened and shown themselves willing to listen.
I wonder how much harm might have been averted if some of their predecessors had had those gifts and exercised their authority tempered with humility? A great way forward?
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A good point but spoken in an age of cell phones and television. But when the points to be debated might take months to be delivered, did the Popes have any recourse but to address them as they did?
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Good point my friend. Indeed, now we have these aids, it might be far more possible than in the past to exercise authority in the way this wonderful Pope and his marvellous predecessor did.
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An excellent point and it should probably be noted that the Reformation started within thirty years of Gutenberg’s printing press, again we should note the power of communication, as we have seen in our own day.
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Yes, that must have been important in allowing Luther to do what he did.
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Yes, and it was something I just realized in the last week or so. Freedom of speech strikes again!
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It does, and is one reason it is so important not to let the State monopolise it.
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Bingo, My Friend!!! 4.0 on this quiz.
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🙂
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Well earned/ 🙂
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Brother Servufidelis, what is the original faith? Belief in the Christ is the faith. Being born again is everything. Then just follow the Shepherd. What else is there? Some people have tried to tell me that Jesus , when he rose from the dead, taught people how to worship..ie..the golden trinkets, the man in a babylonian fish hat utter some magic words to bring god down from heaven, where to put the gold cup, where to put the monsterance, pack the temple full of graven images, Mary rose up to heaven. In other words, Jesus taught catholic tradition at that time. Here is some advice to all my new friends in here…i wasnt born yesterday. The scriptures are clear…Jesus didnt teach when he came back, he did things, signs and wonders. nowhere does it say he taught. People say i twist scripture. Let me know if you catch me doing that, ill run a check and admit my error. Thanks for listening to my diatribe
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Bosco – none of us were born yesterday, and it occasionally seems to me that some of those who say they are born again may well have been and not quite gotten over it, so to say.
Bosco, of course Jesus taught, what do you think He was doing in the sermon on the Mount or the Lord’s prayer?
Don’t worry about the ‘diatribe’ Bosco, but remember that all are welcome here, which means that we try to treat each other with respect 🙂
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Mt. 4:23 Mt. 5:2 Mt 5:19 Mt. 7:28 Mt. 7:29 Mt. 8:19 Mt. 9:11 Mt. 9:35 Mt. 10:24 Mt. 11:1 Mt. 12:38 Mt. 13:54 Mt. 17:24 Mt. 19:16 Mt. 21:23 Mt. 26:18 Mt. 28:15 Mt. 28:20
I could certainly go on. Christ was a teacher.
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Excellent – he was also called Rabbi by Mary Magdalene – which means, of course, teacher, and just underlines you point. 🙂
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Scripture : http://www.sacredbible.org/catholic/index.htm
bozo : Belief in the Christ is the faith.
Sola Fide is a Protestant heresy
Salvation comes from Faith, Conversion, the Spirit, and Grace. Good Works are a manifestation of the Spirit, but they do not in themselves provide Salvation — because it can only be provided by our relationship with God.
Being born again is everything
Meaningless Protestant gibberish, sorry — God is everything.
Some people have tried to tell me that Jesus , when he rose from the dead, taught people how to worship..ie..the golden trinkets, the man in a babylonian fish hat utter some magic words to bring god down from heaven, where to put the gold cup, where to put the monsterance, pack the temple full of graven images
The only people who have told you any such thing are fantasy people living inside your head.
Mary rose up to heaven
Deo Gratias, ora pro nobis Mariae !!
In other words, Jesus taught catholic tradition at that time
Your cluelessness is truly epic !!!
The scriptures are clear
Of course they bloody well aren’t !!!
nowhere does it say he taught
You’re obviously not using the same Bible as other people.
This is a blatantly false statement.
Luke {24:36} Then, while they were talking about these things, Jesus stood in their midst, And he said to them: “Peace be with you. It is I. Do not be afraid.”
{24:37} Yet truly, they were very disturbed and terrified, supposing that they saw a spirit.
{24:38} And he said to them: “Why are you disturbed, and why do these thoughts rise up in your hearts?
{24:39} See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Look and touch. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.”
{24:40} And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
{24:41} Then, while they were still in disbelief and in wonder out of joy, he said, “Do you have anything here to eat?”
{24:42} And they offered him a piece of roasted fish and a honeycomb.
{24:43} And when he had eaten these in their sight, taking up what was left, he gave it to them.
{24:44} And he said to them: “These are the words that I spoke to you when I was still with you, because all things must be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses, and in the Prophets, and in the Psalms about me.”
{24:45} Then he opened their mind, so that they might understand the Scriptures.
People say i twist scripture
Yes, you do — constantly.
Principally by your foolish and heretical insistence that it is meant to be interpreted literally on every possible occasion, whereas in fact it is blatantly obvious that the writing of the Scripture is nowhere near as simplistic as in your false readings.
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I think our Popes have on the most part been concerned about the economy of souls. That is why it takes the church sometimes 100 years or so to make a correcction to those who are in apostasy or to fight a heresy in a Council.
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A difficult one to be sure, my friend, but it does seem that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Papacy to a position where at least some non-Catholics might be wiling, in their turn, to suspend old prejudices and think anew.
My admiration for the Blessed John Paul II was immense, but you know, Pope Benedict XVI has gained a huge place in my heart – two quite different men with quite different styles – but such servants of God, both of them.
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I totally agree Jess. They are giants among men.
With that said, I have many things to do today and will join you later this afternoon if you have not yet solved all the world’s problems and fixed our Christian divide by then. 🙂
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Bless you my friend, I much appreciate your time here – as do many others. Have a good day – we shall no doubt have found fresh hurdles 🙂
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I think one of the problems the modern world has understanding the corruption of the church that Luther saw, is who is the leaders of the Church were. The Church major problem I see is it had Spiritual power but more damaging it had Temporal power too. It was a time of great dynamic change, the founding of great universities, a time when social relationships were in flux, where technology was enthusiastically advanced, the black death broke the back of feudalism, causing confusion in each man’s role, which was fixed and firm but no longer. The Church was not a path of faith, it was a Noble path for the second sons. It was a path to riches and with riches comes corruption. Some leaders like Sir Thomas Becket came in as a servant of the King, and became a new creature of the Lord, but it was rare, the leaven came from below not from above. But still the Holy Spirit guided the church the most corrupt Popes did not produced corrupt fruit.
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There is so much truth and wisdom in that Tom. There is no doubt that the corruptions of the world had entered into the medieval church, and equally little doubt that those who called the church on it, reacted with pride and stubbornness – on both sides, grave faults, I fear.
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This articles on this blog is expanding so fast, that when I try to fill my bowl, it overflows.
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Yes, we’ve one more than usual today – but I hope people like the poem 🙂
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This blog is started out as a pony and trap, and how it is a Kentucky thoroughbred, good on you all. Here is a poem everyone knows but for me it deserves thought
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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Oh Tom, Tom, thank you for three things:
– your kind words
– that beautiful Yeats poem
– and most of all, your presence here 🙂 xx
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A late thought: perhaps we could get into the corruption and the evil that is at play consistently through God’s revelation to men. I think it interesting that in the Church that God left us: it has a mechanism to self-correct over time while other churches do not. It is also a fact that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has prevented the collapse and the division of people who stayed upon the Bark of Peter. It is the action of ipso facto excommunication that takes place within anyone who denies any teaching of the faith which keeps Her pure. The corrupt are forgotten, written off as not Catholic at all, being unproductive in their works. God profits the good and raises good men to wring good from evil. We sometimes learn of them much later than during the times they were living, but we do know them by their fruits.
That’s why it is hard to judge the hour that we live aboard the Bark of Peter whether the Captain is heading in the right direction or the mates are doing their duty or if the mutineers are right or wrong. The voyage is too long for a critique that is only viewed in it’s whole from above and outside of our brief time. Maybe that is why the Catholic Church has never put a soul in hell by any declaration: only Saints that are in heaven. We let Christs separate the tares from the wheat and the sheep from the goats. It is only our job to listen and obey and do our duty and let the ship make headway toward her Eternal Destination. He who blows the wind and fills the mast and keeps the Bark afloat will know who were on the ship’s register and who were merely stowaways.
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Yes, yes, they are very good points – they made me think of the poen C has just posted – Ithaka – I love the final point my friend 🙂
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Say, Jessica told me that this is a anglican site. Why is everyone wavin the catholic flag?
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Im logged in as bozoboy for some weird reason.
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It is OK Bosco, bless you, I can tell it is you 🙂
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Bosco, they aren’t. If you stop and read you’ll see that NEO is a Lutheran, crossingthe bosphorus a Methodist, Lyn is an Evangelical. There are many types of Christian here Bosco.
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No, Jess wouldn’t have said that! 🙂 This is definitely a Catholic site but you are welcome to stay and read or comment, of course.
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Bosco – do read what other Christians are saying, we are all disciples of the Lord Jesus, but there have been such for centuries, and to imagine we can learn nothing from them, can that be sensible?
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Sorry, Jess, but I just had to tell him that he was at a Catholic site. 🙂
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No problem my friend – quite the opposite – a great compliment 🙂
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Jessica’s conversion to Catholicism may be a difficult one, but the sudden appearance of “diabolical spirits” seeking to tempt her away from that path is actually a strong sign that she has passed a certain threshold along that holy path.
Went through the same thing myself FWIW, though not in such a raw public manner I must admit !!!
Yes bozo — Jess is close indeed to Catholicism.
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Bosco – Why simple, K2 is a high mountain and so is mount Everest, both great climbs, but if you want to go higher and get a clearer view of God’s creation you must climb mount Everest. So I chose the Catholic church. I once was a protestant like you, but now I am the Ethiopian in the chariot and I am taught by Philip, who is the Church.
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Thank you Jabba for taking time to address my points. You quoted Jesus as saying that he opened the apostles eyes so they could understand the gospel. They were with him for 3 yrs but were still blind to scripture. Ive been saying that all along. EVERYONE IS BLIND TO SCRIPTURE UNTIL jESUS OPENS YOUR EYES(BORN AGAIN). Cap accident. Oh, being saved is everything as far as the human is concerned. Saved is personally knowing god. Being as smart as you are, you must know the only requirement to make it into heaven. What does Jesus say at judgment to everyone? He said, you did all the catholic sacrements, enter into my joy……uhh, nope ,not it….he said, …you prayed to Mary, enter into my joy………not it either, He said, You have just enough endulgences bought by your grandchildren, enter into my joy……..er eh..not that either. This is what he says..” Depart from me, i never knew you”. Knowing him personally is the only requirement. I know him and met him and we go our rounds sometime but i actually know him. And i can tell when someone doesnt know him. Hes the same for everyone. When your born again you know it. No uncertainty with the holy ghost and salvation. I was on a bus late at nite when the change happened to me. Like everyone knows where they were when kennedy was killed, no one forgets where they were when they were born again.
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[John 3]
{3:1} Now there was a man among the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews.
{3:2} He went to Jesus at night, and he said to him: “Rabbi, we know that you have arrived as a teacher from God. For no one would be able to accomplish these signs, which you accomplish, unless God were with him.”
{3:3} Jesus responded and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn anew, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
{3:4} Nicodemus said to him: “How could a man be born when he is old? Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be reborn?”
{3:5} Jesus responded: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one has been reborn by water and the Holy Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
{3:6} What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
{3:7} You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew.
{3:8} The Spirit inspires where he wills. And you hear his voice, but you do not know where he comes from, or where he is going. So it is with all who are born of the Spirit.”
It’s the baptism of water and in the Spirit that is designated by the phrase “born again”, not whatever strange interpretation of your own.
Saved is personally knowing god.
If that were true, then Lucifer is saved ; the story of Adam and Eve’s fall out of Grace is meaningless ; and morality is without object nor purpose.
Saved is saved ; and this is in the hands of God.
And i can tell when someone doesnt know him
This is blatantly untrue, sorry.
no one forgets where they were when they were born again
Given that most people are infants when they receive the baptism of water and in the Spirit, most people *do* in fact forget these circumstances.
I will of course never ever forget the circumstances of my own conversion nor the time and place where I was baptised.
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Im back…did you miss me?
And i can tell when someone doesnt know him
This is blatantly untrue, sorry.—Jabba
Jabba, do you have a brother or a sister? if i said i know them and start saying things you know for a fact arent true about them, you could tell they dont know them.Same with Jesus. If going to a baptism service and saying the magic words then getting dunked in water makes every participant saved, well heck, lets all line up and get saved.
{3:7} You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew.
Jabba and anyone reading this, did you know no one goes up to heaven unless they came down from heaven? The new spirit you get comes down from heaven and up there it knew Jesus. Step rite up and get born again…please no pushing. Hold yer breath…ok, your born again…..NEXT
Water baptism is nice, its something people do after they get saved to make a public show. Unsaved can do it to, doesnt make them saved. Jabba, tell me, what does the catholic religion say about recieving the spirit? You get dunked, thats nice, but where do you get the new spirit? When you get dunked, all you get is wet.Thanks for your good reply Jabba.
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aaaaah well, after that pleasant interlude, back to the daily grind …
And i can tell when someone doesnt know him
This is blatantly untrue, sorry.—Jabba
Bozo, your ability to understand who is walking with the Spirit of the Lord and who isn’t is not very strong — this is for two reasons.
1) you falsely imagine your monomoaniac obsessions with “babylonian fish hats” (I mean CRIPES !!!) and decorative statuary to be of some kind of relevance to this question, hence you are blinded in this by your own selfish desires and blindnesses and your radical Protestant and literalist indoctrination that keep you from the Truth
2) you falsely imagine that one’s first encounter with the Spirit provides salvation, when all that it provides is one stepping stone towards conversion
Jabba, do you have a brother or a sister? if i said i know them and start saying things you know for a fact arent true about them, you could tell they dont know them
My brother and one of my sisters frequently tell outrageous lies about me as if they were supposed to be truths. NOT the best example, bozo.
And the fact is that you frequently say things about the Christ and about God and the Holy Spirit that I *know* to be falsehoods.
Here’s your big mistake number 3 :
3) Just because you know something about the Christ does not mean that you know everything of importance about Him
In fact, for what I don’t know about the Christ, I can only turn to others who are walking with the Spirit — but NOBODY is going to turn to someone who keeps on claiming “you is not savd, only I is savd” for knowledge, because that person is only showing themself to be closed in mind to the knowledge of others.
Your cavalry chapel is paying you the false coin of personal opinion and sectarianism.
Same with Jesus. If going to a baptism service and saying the magic words then getting dunked in water makes every participant saved, well heck, lets all line up and get saved.
This is a ridiculous caricature, the baptism is in the Spirit, not just a splash of water.
Mark {1:4} John was in the desert, baptizing and preaching a baptism of repentance, as a remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out to him all the region of Judea and all those of Jerusalem, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
{1:6} And John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist. And he ate locusts and wild honey.
{1:7} And he preached, saying: “One stronger than me comes after me. I am not worthy to reach down and loosen the laces of his shoes.
{1:8} I have baptized you with water. Yet truly,he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
{16:15} And he said to them: “Go forth to the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature.
{16:16} Whoever will have believed and been baptized will be saved. Yet truly, whoever will not have believed will be condemned.
There is no question, not even from a purely Scriptural approach, but that the baptism of water is a requirement with the baptism in the Spirit — your description of baptism as “magic words” simply shows how very far you are from Christ’s own teachings.
And that’s not even considering you may have been deceived by a false spirit of the Enemy — I’ve encountered at least one of these, and they are full of deceit and lies.
And here you are, coming among us not with belief and Faith, but to tell us falsehoods and Error.
It is NOT TRUE that only bozo knows the Lord ; it is NOT TRUE that only by converting to your own little sectarian group can salvation be achieved ; it is NOT TRUE that Christ only comes to us in one single way only ; it is NOT TRUE that we can gain magic powers to discover who is strong and who is weak with the Spirit of the Lord, but we can only recognise those who are strong with Him in the same way that we are, ONLY ; it is NOT TRUE that we could somehow achieve salvation in this world, because salvation belongs ONLY to God and ONLY to Heaven.
{3:7} You should not be amazed that I said to you: You must be born anew.
Which I have already pointed out to you means “baptised in the Spirit”
Jabba and anyone reading this, did you know no one goes up to heaven unless they came down from heaven? The new spirit you get comes down from heaven and up there it knew Jesus.
This theology isn’t just wrong, it’s plain old *bad*.
Our souls are divine in nature, and we can’t just swap them for new ones !!!
What fantastic nonsense have you people been reading into the Gospel ???
This is a plain old straightforward HERESY.
God knows our Souls from the moment of our conception, but what we are called to do in our lives and in our baptism and in our conversion is to turn our souls towards God, and away from worldly things, and also to keep this Gospel alive for the current and the future generations.
The only means whereby one can have a new spirit in addition to our own soul, in the manner that you describe, is by possession — but unless that is to be momentarily possessed by the Holy Spirit of God, as we all can be from time to time, then this is not something to be desired, because the likelihood is that it will be demonic.
And it is the sign of the demon that he denies the truth and claims that lies are true instead ; that he denies the basics of the Faith, denounces baptism, teaches false religion, attacks the beliefs of the Faithful, makes scandal and gives false witness against the Faithful, and does all in his power to destroy the Church of God that he hates so deeply into his very soul.
It is very worrisome that you have done all of these things, bozo.
Step rite up and get born again…please no pushing. Hold yer breath…ok, your born again…..NEXT
Water baptism is nice, its something people do after they get saved to make a public show. Unsaved can do it to, doesnt make them saved. Jabba, tell me, what does the catholic religion say about recieving the spirit? You get dunked, thats nice, but where do you get the new spirit? When you get dunked, all you get is wet.Thanks for your good reply Jabba.
Your rejection of baptism is very telling — very simply, there are no unbaptised Christians — by denouncing baptism, you have denounced the very heart of Christianity itself.
This isn’t just heresy — it’s outright apostasy.
You cannot be viewed as being a Christian bozo, and so you certainly have no basis whatsoever to give any such teachings to anyone at all.
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Laura is very close with Aquinas in her answer. The essence of the Christian Faith is summed up in two words: Trinity and Incarnation. From these principles, all the “other (Catholic) essentials” flow.
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(Of course so is St. Paul, since he first formulated it lol)
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Yes, she’s given a really succinct and good summary.
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Trinity yes, Incarnation yes — including our own incarnation in our own flesh ; but also Communion.
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We are one body because we all share in one cup.
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I find those to be a kind of “logical necessity” stemming from the notions of the Trinity and Incarnation. Another way of going through it ‘backwardly’ is that the denial of certain Catholic essentials tends to revolve around some kind of inherent de-emphasis on either of those two principles. At least that is how I see it. I might go write about it.
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It would be lovely to see your further thoughts about this, my friend 🙂
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Well now I’m just going to have to give it a go since you asked 😛
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That’s lovely – I will look forward to it – you’re on a roll at the moment 🙂
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Back in the days when I was not to fond of my own faith, one of the things that bothered me so deeply was the “shallowness” that I seemed to see in it. People would say, “just believe and you are saved and that is that, wash your hands of it, you are good to go!”
I would think, “WHAT?!”
I thought Christianity seemed terribly shallow compared to a deeply intelligent faith like Buddhism. I even considered becoming a Buddhist.
But when I read about the saints, I learned that they did not take that viewpoint at all. They were always growing, never staying stagnant. There was no easy “quick fix” to sanctity, and that made a lot more sense to me.
They showed me Catholicism (Christianity) IS deep, very deep.
Just not that watered down version that says “I believe therefore I am PERFECT!”
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Most here, my friend, would agree. To be a Christian is certainly to acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, but who is Christ and how do we know He is who He is? All of those things we can say we find from the Bible, but where do we find, in the Bible, that one day there will be a book which tell us all these things, or what it in it? Dear Servus Fidelis has an excellent recent post on all of this.
We know the Bible is the word of God because the Church Christ founded tells us.
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That is why I like your viewpoints. You think so much. You never make Christianity look shallow.
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Thank you – I like to think we complement each other, as you bring out the deep beauty of one of the great Christian Traditions, making real the ‘beauty of holiness’.
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Thank you 🙂 That is a good way to think of it.
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I love the way you bring out the beauty of holiness in your Tradtion – I can’t help but think if there were of it in evidence, more Chrisitans would be attracted to it.
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Thank you. I think if more people could see they would be attracted too. Hope all is well.
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It is, and thank you for the kind words.I hope all is well with you?
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Thank you – sorry, I have not been around. I am ok, thanks for asking. God bless you!
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And you my friend – hope all is well. 🙂 x
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Very true — but not every Catholic (Christian) has a vocation for this sort of contemplative Faith — complex or simple, our vocations are united in Communion with the Eucharist and with God.
Perfection is of course not of this world.
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True, but every Catholic (Christian) has a call to grow closer to Christ, and that is what is beautiful. Maybe not as contemplatives, but in some way or another they always need to be growing. 🙂
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That is so true. Our religion is a transformative one, or it is nothing – this is at the heart of the process of being born again – it is a process, not a once and for all event.
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I think that here we have testimony of what ails us in our modern churches. If salvation can be purchased so cheaply, it is of no great value. We know that is not true, of course, but many think so, without reflection. This is in some sense the tragedy of what Kathleen calls modernism.
Using the protestant vernacular, perhaps it is a time for preachers rather than pastors.
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That seems spot on to me – do we really think our salvation, purchased as such a price, is to be had so cheaply?
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And yet that twaddle is what many of our mainline protestant churches are peddling, God is Love, the state will take care of your works.
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From the 1st epistle of Obama to the Democratic National Convention.
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Indeed, unfortunately this trend started in the 60’s and has infected a whole generation of my (at least) church hierarchy. Which is how we got to the point of this week’s posts.
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I’m afraid so, alas.
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But, they are beginning to retire and the new leadership, while perhaps not what we would like, are, I think, better.
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Yes, I hope and think so – hard to see they could be much worse 🙂
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That is certainly so. 🙂
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Great post from you today – really fine summary 🙂
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Thank You, maybe it will help some who wander in in the middle. I hope so. Some of what I wanted was already hard to find. 🙂
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That’s really why it is such an extraordinarily good post. 🙂
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I know. We covered an extraordinary amount of ground in the last few day, with good humor, intelligence and respect and Grace. I’m very proud of all of the participants. 🙂
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Yes, it has been an interesting and, I hope, informative discussion. :
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We surely Have 🙂
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I’m so proud of everyone for the standard of discussion – and the tone – I wish this could happen more often on the Internet 🙂
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It’s mostly about leadership, and yours is superlative. Like attracts like, your commenters reflect you. 🙂
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That’s kind, but I feel more like the person who books the hall for a concert and then watches gifted musicians as they show their stuff 🙂
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I think you are a bit too self effacing, my dear friend. Concertmaster, would be closer, not that it matters, really. Whatever you’re doing, it’s certainly working, for all of our benefit. 🙂
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I am just proud to be part of such a group of Christians. By our love, each for the other, we bear witness to the Father. 🙂
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I completely agree with that 🙂
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It is a privilege to know you and the others here. 🙂
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I feel same about all of you. 🙂
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A good feeling my friend 🙂
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It is, indeed. 🙂
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That is so true. When the average person who is not Christian thinks of Christianity today, they probably think of nothing more than people running around saying “I am saved! You need to get saved too!” – and then they see them at their local keg party the next weekend.
But when they look to eastern faiths, etc., they see a whole outer world that surrounds the people there that reflects and speaks for what the inner could be like. This draws them in, for it leads them away from the ordinary world to something seemingly more profound. It speaks of more meaning than some guy in jeans and a t-shirt yelling, “get saved!”
We have such profound traditions in our faith that can do the same for souls, pointing towards what things could be within, but we prefer trinket Jesus key chains. 😦
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We do, indeed, CNG, and we, let alone outsiders, need them, worshiping God needs to be something special containing what I called someplace (my head is still spinning from this series) reverential awe. otherwise we just a social club. And trinket Jesus key chains is perfect.
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Excellent points, my friend. Yes, the shallowness of some of what passes for expressions of the Faith nowadays explains much of the plight our churches are in.
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This is for my own information but is the painting of Jesus and Peter by Arnold Friberg? in a small way the shadows look like the shadows of his. you can see his work if you look for ”Washington praying at Village Forge”. good lighting.
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Yes, it is 🙂
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sorry that should be valley forge not village a village is full of villains, french of course, valley forge was full of confused Americans, who did not know about the joys of beans on toast for breakfast and proper football. (and of course the Queen, I hope she joins the Tiber swim team. (What do you think?))
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No, the dear old Queen is a life-long Anglican, and will stay so.
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Yes, you are right of course, but C.S. Lewis was also a life-long Anglican so the Queen is in good company, hmm or properly it should be C.S. Lewis who is in good company. I am very well educated on all the important facets of English history, I have watched all of the Blackadder series.
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:). both excellent company.
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